Can we revert the Funnel Health nerfs now that crit double dipping has been fixed?

KenaPKK

Back when ZOS nerfed Breath of Life by taking away one of its heals on allies, they similarly nerfed Funnel Health (nightblade siphoning dps ability). Formerly, Funnel Health had applied a heal over time effect to two allies in addition to yourself. ZOS changed it to apply its HoT to one ally instead of two, the same way they reduced BoL to heal one less ally.

Note that Funnel Health heals based on damage dealt. Funnel Health was nerfed because at the time, its heal ticks could crit even after they were based on critical damage dealt. However, in a later patch, ZOS fixed all heals based on damage dealt so that none can double dip in crit.

So now we have Funnel working as intended (not double dipping in crit), but still nerfed (1 HoT instead of 2) relative to before the changes.

Can we please revert this nerf? Mageblade healers do not deserve this change.

Thanks.

KenaPKK

This is important to me... Anyone else value healing with mageblades, or are we all caught up in the "templars are the only classes that can heal" meta?

DocFrost72

I heal on everything, and tbh I see funnel as a mutagen replacement or even an addition to it. I use healing ward as my pseudo BoL. Would I like to see it changed back the way it was? Heck yeah. But I don't think that was the reason they changed it, or that it will revert now =/

idk

@KenaPKK

Where did you see the Devs state that funnel health was reduced to healing caster and one other due to double dipping with the crit? My guess is this is an assumption.

Since it occured when BoL was needed to healing only 2 and that may have been the same time the sorc twilight would heal 2 it seems to all fall into being consistent. Essentially, there are no heals that target individuals and target more than 2 targets, at least I csn it think of any.

KenaPKK

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@KenaPKK

Where did you see the Devs state that funnel health was reduced to healing caster and one other due to double dipping with the crit? My guess is this is an assumption.

Since it occured when BoL was needed to healing only 2 and that may have been the same time the sorc twilight would heal 2 it seems to all fall into being consistent. Essentially, there are no heals that target individuals and target more than 2 targets, at least I csn it think of any.

I understand that. The question is whether a heal over time effect should fall under the same blanket balancing concepts as burst heals.

I think they shouldn't.

Kalebron

I used to use funnel health but see no point in using it atm. I have been without it since the nerf and personally have gotten used to being without it. Now I am just greedy using the other morph. LOL.

KaleidoscopeEyz

I'm selfish, I've always used Swallow Soul for the 8% healing boost.

AlnilamE

I would definitely file that under "nice to have"

idk

KenaPKK wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@KenaPKK

Where did you see the Devs state that funnel health was reduced to healing caster and one other due to double dipping with the crit? My guess is this is an assumption.

Since it occured when BoL was needed to healing only 2 and that may have been the same time the sorc twilight would heal 2 it seems to all fall into being consistent. Essentially, there are no heals that target individuals and target more than 2 targets, at least I csn it think of any.

I understand that. The question is whether a heal over time effect should fall under the same blanket balancing concepts as burst heals.

I think they shouldn't.

Your argument seems to offer a very different justification and premise. Maybe I just do not understand what your OP says. I'm probably not the brightest bulb in yhe room.

Wump

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

I'm selfish, I've always used Swallow Soul for the 8% healing boost.

^That.

As a siphoning MagBlade which plagues opponents with haunting fear while draining their life I have only one desire: Stay alive to win. Using Swallow Soul therefore.

Apart from PvP: OP is right. Why has a hot to suffer for restrictions on burst heals?

code65536

The reason that @Wrobel had stated on ESO Live when he was asked about the ally-count change was that "magicka nightblades were topping both the DPS and healing charts". Although he never mentioned double-dipping, its removal in the next update had noticeably lowered the amount of healing that magblades can output, so I agree that the earlier ally restriction change can be reverted in light of that.

Lucky28

i would prefer they reverted the changes to DPS heals by allowing the heal to calculate crits again. i really hate how they made it so crit builds aren't worth fully investing into with those changes to DPS heals and Surge.

EDIT: however, i did stop using Funnel after that change was made.

Lore_lai

Errr...pardon my ignorance but doesn't Funnel "smart"-target the people who don't have it on/need heal?

Say in a 4man dungeon - you start the fight. Funnel is placed on you and one other, then the next Funnel is placed on another and so on?

Since you would be weaving it as Heal/DPS you would cover everyone, no? It would in theory take just one more Funnel to get the other person covered (at the start) than it was pre-nerf. Then once you have the fight going, your weaves would keep everyone "funneled".

UltimaJoe777

KenaPKK wrote: »

This is important to me... Anyone else value healing with mageblades, or are we all caught up in the "templars are the only classes that can heal" meta?

No. Sorcerers can heal too

idk

code65536 wrote: »

The reason that @Wrobel had stated on ESO Live when he was asked about the ally-count change was that "magicka nightblades were topping both the DPS and healing charts". Although he never mentioned double-dipping, its removal has noticeably lowered the amount of healing that magblades can output, so I agree that the ally restriction change can be reverted in light of that.

This explanation makes sense. Thx @code65536 for the history and explanation.

Ggrab

I just recently got back into the game and retooled a NB healer post-nerf. I have no problem keeping 4man group now that my gear got better but I do wonder how easier it be if funnel health nerf got reverse

KenaPKK

Lore_lai wrote: »

Errr...pardon my ignorance but doesn't Funnel "smart"-target the people who don't have it on/need heal?

Say in a 4man dungeon - you start the fight. Funnel is placed on you and one other, then the next Funnel is placed on another and so on?

Since you would be weaving it as Heal/DPS you would cover everyone, no? It would in theory take just one more Funnel to get the other person covered (at the start) than it was pre-nerf. Then once you have the fight going, your weaves would keep everyone "funneled".

Yes but you have other skills you have to be using. Place this in challenging content, like competitive PvP or a 12 man trial, and 1 funnel hot per cast is not nearly sufficient.

Rohamad_Ali

Yes this is past due . In PvP it's mostly a dead ability only used by some . Please revert back ZOS since the fix on crit .

Totalitarian

I would say only if ZOS reverts the BOL nerf to Templars, but considering Templars got insane buffs from the BOL nerf...

I'd be fine with the reversion.

Lore_lai

@KenaPKK
Of course you do - just like any other healer does, Templar or no.
But Funnel will still be your main spammable on single target so I don't think it would be hard to keep everyone covered, even post-nerf.
12-man you'd use a lot of Healing Springs anyway.

Can't speak for PvP from a NB healer perspective as I've never tried it.

I did actually mess around bit on my NB (in PvE) and tried heals and I found it really enjoyable. Just regular and vet dungeons, nothing too fancy, but I loved it! Can't wait to get my hands on a Master's Resto

Osteos

I heal on my NB and would like to see this reversion.

Khaos_Bane

Templars are the only classes that can heal ? Hell I have done Vet instances on my STA Sorc with all STA DPS just using Vigor and that was enough healing.

The META for this game is STA DPS, period. Can you imagine what @Wrobel will do with the new STA Weapon Ultimates. They will dominate even more.

kojou

KenaPKK wrote: »

Back when ZOS nerfed Breath of Life by taking away one of its heals on allies, they similarly nerfed Funnel Health (nightblade siphoning dps ability). Formerly, Funnel Health had applied a heal over time effect to two allies in addition to yourself. ZOS changed it to apply its HoT to one ally instead of two, the same way they reduced BoL to heal one less ally.

Note that Funnel Health heals based on damage dealt. Funnel Health was nerfed because at the time, its heal ticks could crit even after they were based on critical damage dealt. However, in a later patch, ZOS fixed all heals based on damage dealt so that none can double dip in crit.

So now we have Funnel working as intended (not double dipping in crit), but still nerfed (1 HoT instead of 2) relative to before the changes.

Can we please revert this nerf? Mageblade healers do not deserve this change.

Thanks.

As a long running Magiblade I will sign for this as well.

I will also say that I have to agree with Wrobel that my Magiblade's healing was ridiculous pre-nerf. My FTC stats for HPS would typically outpace the healers I ran with. I don't think Magiblades were ever top the chart for DPS though. I do know some that hit some pretty high numbers, but usually they were using Force Pulse + Nerieneth and that takes the healing out of the equation.

Personally I always looked at it is a reasonable sacrifice. I put out less DPS than Force Pulse + Nerieneth, but add a lot healing to the group. I would even be ok with having a smaller HPS value, but applying HOTs to to 2 players instead of one.

KenaPKK

Lore_lai wrote: »

@KenaPKK
Of course you do - just like any other healer does, Templar or no.
But Funnel will still be your main spammable on single target so I don't think it would be hard to keep everyone covered, even post-nerf.
12-man you'd use a lot of Healing Springs anyway.

Can't speak for PvP from a NB healer perspective as I've never tried it.

I did actually mess around bit on my NB (in PvE) and tried heals and I found it really enjoyable. Just regular and vet dungeons, nothing too fancy, but I loved it! Can't wait to get my hands on a Master's Resto

In a realistic setting where you keep buffs and aoe heals and dps skills up properly, you don't cast funnel more than half the time. 10 second duration means 5 casts max if you're really pushing to maximize your funnel casts, which means funnel hot will be on 5 people at a time. You'd be giving up aoe heals or dps or team buffs to achieve more. Even spamming nothing but funnel (at which point you are a potato ), you'll never get your hot on more than 10 people.

I love support mageblade -- heals, disruption, tanking -- but this particular nerf set it back pretty far.

Lore_lai

KenaPKK wrote: »

In a realistic setting where you keep buffs and aoe heals and dps skills up properly, you don't cast funnel more than half the time. 10 second duration means 5 casts max if you're really pushing to maximize your funnel casts, which means funnel hot will be on 5 people at a time. You'd be giving up aoe heals or dps or team buffs to achieve more. Even spamming nothing but funnel (at which point you are a potato ), you'll never get your hot on more than 10 people.

I love support mageblade -- heals, disruption, tanking -- but this particular nerf set it back pretty far.

That's why in a trial you're not the only healer.
Also why you kick that stam DPS from the group and ask for magNB DPS with Funnel replacement, for support.

*Just to be clear - I'm not against the revert to how Funnel used to be. I just don't think the way Funnel is now will make or break you as healer.

Xvorg

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Yes this is past due . In PvP it's mostly a dead ability only used by some . Please revert back ZOS since the fix on crit .

As I said in another post, one of the problems with funnel health/burning embers/bloodthirst in PvP is the fact that has a double nerf. By reducing its dmg component in a 50% through BS, the healing is automatically nerfed a 50%, so, here's no need to add a SECOND nerf to that healing.

KenaPKK

Xvorg wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Yes this is past due . In PvP it's mostly a dead ability only used by some . Please revert back ZOS since the fix on crit .

As I said in another post, one of the problems with funnel health/burning embers/bloodthirst in PvP is the fact that has a double nerf. By reducing its dmg component in a 50% through BS, the healing is automatically nerfed a 50%, so, here's no need to add a SECOND nerf to that healing.

Heals based on damage done are no longer doubly hit by Battle Spirit as of a more recent patch than these nerfs.

leepalmer95

While we arethere can we buff it's damage? 2.2k swallow souls vs a heavy armour build with 50k magicka and 2.6k spell dmg and 12k penetration just isn't funny.

Not when full 'tank builds' still hit me for stupid damage.

SanTii.92

/signed

FrostFallFox

I would love this.

Solariken

ZOS changed Funnel because the skill was over-performing, providing great DPS and healing output from only one button press (especially in PvE). I think it would be alright to add back the 3rd heal, but that morph should probably give less healing per target and/or increase the HoT duration.