Poorly thought out maintenance times and their conflict with economy mechanics

Drishtan

*Looks both ways**

ZOS WHERE ARE U??? Have you gotten Lost? CAN U SEE ATIVAR????

Drishtan

SO Back to my main point! ZOS will comment when they ban me from the forums for my post. Hopfully that will trigger them to actually comment on this issue!

Drishtan

ZOSSY WHERE ARE YOU???

IS THE GANG BANG OVER???

Drishtan

Taps Feet... Crickets Chirping...Typical ZOSSY

Anslay

silvereyes wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system....

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

Is it so strange that the kiosk is what *makes* a top trade guild? In-guild sales usually only account for about 10% of the total.

This isn't about guild traders vs. auction house, although that is certainly a valid debate. This is about the most experienced, fanatical players for a particular aspect of the game not being able to do 90% of the thing they like to do most in the game. This is about their leaders being forced to turn their lives upside down dealing with asinine management decisions in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think of it this way ... what if an elite PvE guild were, overnight, only allowed by an arcane game mechanic to run 10% of the trials and dungeons they normally do? Or an elite PvP guild only allowed to queue for Cyrodiil on Thursdays?

But, if the officers wanted to avoid that situation, they could be online 4 AM on Monday to submit a form, but only a limited number of forms are accepted and the last one in wins. But the officers would not find out whether it was accepted or rejected by ZOS until maintenance was over; maybe at 9 AM, maybe at 5 PM, depending on how the maintenance went.

To the rank-and-file members of the guild, not being able to play how they normally do 90% of the time would be inconvenient for 1 week. It would be highly annoying for 2. By week 3, they would start looking around for another guild.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun. None of the situation with kiosk bidding is fun right now, neither for the officers nor for the members of guilds that lose their bids because of it.

I love this!

Epona222

silvereyes wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system....

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

Is it so strange that the kiosk is what *makes* a top trade guild? In-guild sales usually only account for about 10% of the total.

This isn't about guild traders vs. auction house, although that is certainly a valid debate. This is about the most experienced, fanatical players for a particular aspect of the game not being able to do 90% of the thing they like to do most in the game. This is about their leaders being forced to turn their lives upside down dealing with asinine management decisions in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think of it this way ... what if an elite PvE guild were, overnight, only allowed by an arcane game mechanic to run 10% of the trials and dungeons they normally do? Or an elite PvP guild only allowed to queue for Cyrodiil on Thursdays?

But, if the officers wanted to avoid that situation, they could be online 4 AM on Monday to submit a form, but only a limited number of forms are accepted and the last one in wins. But the officers would not find out whether it was accepted or rejected by ZOS until maintenance was over; maybe at 9 AM, maybe at 5 PM, depending on how the maintenance went.

To the rank-and-file members of the guild, not being able to play how they normally do 90% of the time would be inconvenient for 1 week. It would be highly annoying for 2. By week 3, they would start looking around for another guild.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun. None of the situation with kiosk bidding is fun right now, neither for the officers nor for the members of guilds that lose their bids because of it.

I wish I could have expressed it so eloquently. I love running a trading guild. Contrary to popular belief, I do not get rich from it, quite the opposite. These maintenance/switchover overlap times are just destroying my sleep, and increasing the amount of money we have to bid on even a mid-range trading kiosk. I take on a huge responsibility when I take money donated by members and tax income and bid on a trader, this is not something I do for myself. I don't sit here for hours waiting to see whether we won our bid for myself.

moonbat

Cryptical wrote: »

moonbat wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

By definition, the economy is created by the transactions performed by humans.
....

Well, at least you got that right. As to the rest of your remarks, evidently you do not understand the role of the Guild Traders, i.e., of the "economy", in the play of the game. It is possible to design a game such as ESO without any provision for exchanging goods and/or services among players at all. But it would be a much less interesting game to play.

Trading allows players who have something that their characters don't need to exchange it for something that their characters do need. It also encourages and rewards players to use their characters to obtain and/or to create items that other players might need in order to exchange them for other items which they need for themselves.

One ESO feature allows us to trade items in "face-to-face" meetings between our respective characters, whether to exchange an item for Gold Pieces (GP) or as barter for another item instead. The Guild Store is another way to "sell" items for GP that we can then use to "buy" other items which we want. With the Guild Store, the seller does not have to be present, or currently playing the game, in order for the buyer to obtain what they want. This is convenient for both parties to the transaction.

Guild Traders simply make the content of a Guild Store available to players who are not members of its guild. This approach has its advantages, but also has disadvantages. In particular, there is no limit to the number of guilds that players may organize, but there must be a limit to the number of Guild Traders. Arguably, Bethesda Software could increase the number of Traders beyond the current number, in order to offer more guilds an opportunity to sell goods in their stores to non-members. But it is doubtful whether there will ever be enough Traders for every guild that seriously wants one.

As to whether any player produces or otherwise obtains items for the sake of simply accumulating GP from selling them, I suppose that their greed does not, in and of itself, adversely affect anyone. Personally, I only sell items because I want to get the GP that I will need to buy others. Of course, the more GP that I earn, the more likely it becomes that I can buy rare items which are currently in high demand. Regardless, in ESO the Gold Piece primarily functions as a medium of exchange, not as a store of wealth.

Note that it is Bethesda Software which is responsible for whether an item is plentiful or is scarce, not the players. So, if you don't like the economy, then you know to whom you should complain.

Oh, I understand the role of guild traders. What is apparently not widely understood is that the guild traders were not intended to be put to use this intensely.

There are signs that things with guild traders have gone beyond what they were made to handle.

And that is the fault of ZOS' faulty mechanics, *not* the players. You are blaming the players for something that was poorly implemented by ZOS.

Edited to add: And furthermore, stop telling people how to play. This game has something for everyone. You are tut-tutting people for not playing the game the way *you* think it should be played. How arrogant.

Nope. An analogy of this would be Zos building a baseball park, set aside a few tables for people to do small-scale yard-sale level lunch sales, and you being pissed off because they didn't do enough to support the concession stand business you built upon the picnic table foundation... They built a baseball park, for people to play baseball and do small scale trading on the side, not a shopping mall where people play baseball on the side.

Play however you want. I'm just telling you that you're trying to wedge a commerce driven business into a space that wasn't built for it, and it might work for a while but there will be problems. Play however you want - go ahead and play an altmer stamina Templar with all your points into health if that's what you like - but don't expect it to be zos's fault if you find it hard to function like that.

Then I suggest that you look at the post directly above this reply of yours, as you are quite clearly *wrong*.

moonbat

Epona222 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system....

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

Is it so strange that the kiosk is what *makes* a top trade guild? In-guild sales usually only account for about 10% of the total.

This isn't about guild traders vs. auction house, although that is certainly a valid debate. This is about the most experienced, fanatical players for a particular aspect of the game not being able to do 90% of the thing they like to do most in the game. This is about their leaders being forced to turn their lives upside down dealing with asinine management decisions in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think of it this way ... what if an elite PvE guild were, overnight, only allowed by an arcane game mechanic to run 10% of the trials and dungeons they normally do? Or an elite PvP guild only allowed to queue for Cyrodiil on Thursdays?

But, if the officers wanted to avoid that situation, they could be online 4 AM on Monday to submit a form, but only a limited number of forms are accepted and the last one in wins. But the officers would not find out whether it was accepted or rejected by ZOS until maintenance was over; maybe at 9 AM, maybe at 5 PM, depending on how the maintenance went.

To the rank-and-file members of the guild, not being able to play how they normally do 90% of the time would be inconvenient for 1 week. It would be highly annoying for 2. By week 3, they would start looking around for another guild.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun. None of the situation with kiosk bidding is fun right now, neither for the officers nor for the members of guilds that lose their bids because of it.

I wish I could have expressed it so eloquently. I love running a trading guild. Contrary to popular belief, I do not get rich from it, quite the opposite. These maintenance/switchover overlap times are just destroying my sleep, and increasing the amount of money we have to bid on even a mid-range trading kiosk. I take on a huge responsibility when I take money donated by members and tax income and bid on a trader, this is not something I do for myself. I don't sit here for hours waiting to see whether we won our bid for myself.

I have noticed a theme here, that those who are blaming the GMs for these problems (and not ZOS for implementing a faulty mechanic) seem to think that those who run top trading guilds are guilty of some sort of sin for *striving* to do well in the game, and that they deserve any *punishment* that they get in the form of losing kiosks, sleep etc. That supposed 'greed' and the desire to do well should be *punished* in some fashion.

Elloa

I've not read the whole thread but I'd like to know how this does affect EU server, as I'm not in any trading guild nor running mine, I'm interested to know if this maintenance screw up equally Eu players.

Ashtaris

I'm happy to /sign this post. The suggestions put forth by @hiyde and others are long past due @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert. Please make it happen.

calia1120

@ElfFromSpace has a link in her signature with a list of guild suggestions - tiny.cc/esoguild - please go add some thoughts there as well. There's been a number of great suggestions on how the kiosk bidding could be improved.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert Please, please take some of this into consideration. You've got players on both NA and EU servers asking for something to be done about the coinciding of maintenance and trader bid times.

phaseadept

moonbat wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system....

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

Is it so strange that the kiosk is what *makes* a top trade guild? In-guild sales usually only account for about 10% of the total.

This isn't about guild traders vs. auction house, although that is certainly a valid debate. This is about the most experienced, fanatical players for a particular aspect of the game not being able to do 90% of the thing they like to do most in the game. This is about their leaders being forced to turn their lives upside down dealing with asinine management decisions in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think of it this way ... what if an elite PvE guild were, overnight, only allowed by an arcane game mechanic to run 10% of the trials and dungeons they normally do? Or an elite PvP guild only allowed to queue for Cyrodiil on Thursdays?

But, if the officers wanted to avoid that situation, they could be online 4 AM on Monday to submit a form, but only a limited number of forms are accepted and the last one in wins. But the officers would not find out whether it was accepted or rejected by ZOS until maintenance was over; maybe at 9 AM, maybe at 5 PM, depending on how the maintenance went.

To the rank-and-file members of the guild, not being able to play how they normally do 90% of the time would be inconvenient for 1 week. It would be highly annoying for 2. By week 3, they would start looking around for another guild.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun. None of the situation with kiosk bidding is fun right now, neither for the officers nor for the members of guilds that lose their bids because of it.

I wish I could have expressed it so eloquently. I love running a trading guild. Contrary to popular belief, I do not get rich from it, quite the opposite. These maintenance/switchover overlap times are just destroying my sleep, and increasing the amount of money we have to bid on even a mid-range trading kiosk. I take on a huge responsibility when I take money donated by members and tax income and bid on a trader, this is not something I do for myself. I don't sit here for hours waiting to see whether we won our bid for myself.

I have noticed a theme here, that those who are blaming the GMs for these problems (and not ZOS for implementing a faulty mechanic) seem to think that those who run top trading guilds are guilty of some sort of sin for *striving* to do well in the game, and that they deserve any *punishment* that they get in the form of losing kiosks, sleep etc. That supposed 'greed' and the desire to do well should be *punished* in some fashion.

Maybe, just maybe, it's the elitist attitude that many leaders of trading guilds put forth in other threads.

Cously

Please, change the trader bidding time to something different than the maintenance time. My guild master is going nuts and I worry for her!

Cryptical

moonbat wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system....

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

Is it so strange that the kiosk is what *makes* a top trade guild? In-guild sales usually only account for about 10% of the total.

This isn't about guild traders vs. auction house, although that is certainly a valid debate. This is about the most experienced, fanatical players for a particular aspect of the game not being able to do 90% of the thing they like to do most in the game. This is about their leaders being forced to turn their lives upside down dealing with asinine management decisions in order to ensure that doesn't happen.

Think of it this way ... what if an elite PvE guild were, overnight, only allowed by an arcane game mechanic to run 10% of the trials and dungeons they normally do? Or an elite PvP guild only allowed to queue for Cyrodiil on Thursdays?

But, if the officers wanted to avoid that situation, they could be online 4 AM on Monday to submit a form, but only a limited number of forms are accepted and the last one in wins. But the officers would not find out whether it was accepted or rejected by ZOS until maintenance was over; maybe at 9 AM, maybe at 5 PM, depending on how the maintenance went.

To the rank-and-file members of the guild, not being able to play how they normally do 90% of the time would be inconvenient for 1 week. It would be highly annoying for 2. By week 3, they would start looking around for another guild.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun. None of the situation with kiosk bidding is fun right now, neither for the officers nor for the members of guilds that lose their bids because of it.

I wish I could have expressed it so eloquently. I love running a trading guild. Contrary to popular belief, I do not get rich from it, quite the opposite. These maintenance/switchover overlap times are just destroying my sleep, and increasing the amount of money we have to bid on even a mid-range trading kiosk. I take on a huge responsibility when I take money donated by members and tax income and bid on a trader, this is not something I do for myself. I don't sit here for hours waiting to see whether we won our bid for myself.

I have noticed a theme here, that those who are blaming the GMs for these problems (and not ZOS for implementing a faulty mechanic) seem to think that those who run top trading guilds are guilty of some sort of sin for *striving* to do well in the game, and that they deserve any *punishment* that they get in the form of losing kiosks, sleep etc. That supposed 'greed' and the desire to do well should be *punished* in some fashion.

Clearly the trading guild mechanic is not constructed to support the likes of the trading guilds that have come to dominate the market.

When something exceeds the expected parameters, of course things fail to function smoothly.

If it's so damn hard to run a large guild on the kiosk mechanic but many other guilds run small on the kiosk mechanic then perhaps the issue is the size.

I have noticed a persistent lack of acknowledgement that there are guilds that run just fine when they don't get a kiosk for a week or a few weeks.

acsquared

We really need some acknowledgement ZOS. We have spent A LOT of time running our guilds, since before your launch for many of us. We keep your economy active. We keep your members active and logging in. We keep people subbing.

WE ARE A HUGE PART OF WHY YOU SUCCEED.

And here we are, all joining together.

I see people here that compete against each other. I see people here I've had on /ignore for over a year, but we're all agreeing right here right now. This is your core community right here.

Everyone that is "hardcore" into ESO is in at least one of the guilds represented here. And all us GMs are really tired and frustrated and WANT AN ANSWER.

moonbat

""Clearly the trading guild mechanic is not constructed to support the likes of the trading guilds that have come to dominate the market.""

The faulty implementation of this mechanic is what is driving up the bid prices for the best kiosk locations.

This what you don't seem to understand.

Cryptical

moonbat wrote: »

""Clearly the trading guild mechanic is not constructed to support the likes of the trading guilds that have come to dominate the market.""

The faulty implementation of this mechanic is what is driving up the bid prices for the best kiosk locations.

This what you don't seem to understand.

What you don't seem to understand is that they implemented a game that has a trading system attached like a sidecar.

It is the game, the hack and slash of sword and sorcery, that is the primary element.

Thought experiment - which would continue to remain functional if the other were erased? If the guild kiosks were erased, the entire rest of the game would survive. People would farm their own ancestor silk, willpower rings, psijics and so on. But if you kept the traders while erasing the gameplay, then NOTHING would ever arrive into those stores.

Your massive failure of comprehension is in understanding from which is dependent on which. You keep acting like the game depends on the trading, as if it were a game of economics and commerce. You. Are. Wrong. People can play the game without ever interacting with a guild kiosk - the kiosk can be cut out of their play entirely. But people cannot do anything with a guild kiosk if they do not also play the game. Even flipping, buying low at A and selling higher at B, cannot be done without initial gold to invest - so it is true that the kiosks' survival depends on people playing the game, not the way you think of it.

They didn't build for an economic commerce megastore game, they built a fantasy sword and sorcery game. So trying to jackhammer an economic commerce megastore into a fantasy sword and sorcery game is YOUR issue, not the people who built for swords and spells.

Moonbat - TL? DR?
They built a Ford Taurus. The large trade guilds are running that Taurus with the seats down for added cargo, with the trunk full, with freight strapped to the roof, and with a trailer attached. OF COURSE when you take the car and overload it there will be issues. And it isn't the manufacturers fault if your overloading of the design causes you problems. So suck it up, or start reverting it back to the normal car it was made to be.

moonbat

Cryptical wrote: »

moonbat wrote: »

""Clearly the trading guild mechanic is not constructed to support the likes of the trading guilds that have come to dominate the market.""

The faulty implementation of this mechanic is what is driving up the bid prices for the best kiosk locations.

This what you don't seem to understand.

What you don't seem to understand is that they implemented a game that has a trading system attached like a sidecar.

It is the game, the hack and slash of sword and sorcery, that is the primary element.

Thought experiment - which would continue to remain functional if the other were erased? If the guild kiosks were erased, the entire rest of the game would survive. People would farm their own ancestor silk, willpower rings, psijics and so on. But if you kept the traders while erasing the gameplay, then NOTHING would ever arrive into those stores.

Your massive failure of comprehension is in understanding from which is dependent on which. You keep acting like the game depends on the trading, as if it were a game of economics and commerce. You. Are. Wrong. People can play the game without ever interacting with a guild kiosk - the kiosk can be cut out of their play entirely. But people cannot do anything with a guild kiosk if they do not also play the game. Even flipping, buying low at A and selling higher at B, cannot be done without initial gold to invest - so it is true that the kiosks' survival depends on people playing the game, not the way you think of it.

They didn't build for an economic commerce megastore game, they built a fantasy sword and sorcery game. So trying to jackhammer an economic commerce megastore into a fantasy sword and sorcery game is YOUR issue, not the people who built for swords and spells.

As I keep saying, you are wrong. I direct you to comment #123:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3262428/#Comment_3262428

ElfFromSpace

acsquared wrote: »

I see people here I've had on /ignore for over a year, but we're all agreeing right here right now. This is your core community right here.

I think you ignored me after an incident with bidding and hiring actually. (I tried to contact you after to apologize for the flippant officer but was unable to. If it matters this much later, I took care of that issue.)
The bid issues were bad back then I remember having to try to hire a trader WHILE working and it often left me in a rush and unable to answer questions about the situation to the members. Now it's even worse. What used to be a 2-4 hour wait most weeks to try to hire has turned into a 5-11 hour wait. In addition to making the maintenance time worse, they've made it longer. They're doing both EU and NA servers the time and it seems like EU is done first so NA must wait while they do EU and then wait while they do NA, unable to log in the entire time.

Cryptical

moonbat wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

moonbat wrote: »

""Clearly the trading guild mechanic is not constructed to support the likes of the trading guilds that have come to dominate the market.""

The faulty implementation of this mechanic is what is driving up the bid prices for the best kiosk locations.

This what you don't seem to understand.

What you don't seem to understand is that they implemented a game that has a trading system attached like a sidecar.

It is the game, the hack and slash of sword and sorcery, that is the primary element.

Thought experiment - which would continue to remain functional if the other were erased? If the guild kiosks were erased, the entire rest of the game would survive. People would farm their own ancestor silk, willpower rings, psijics and so on. But if you kept the traders while erasing the gameplay, then NOTHING would ever arrive into those stores.

Your massive failure of comprehension is in understanding from which is dependent on which. You keep acting like the game depends on the trading, as if it were a game of economics and commerce. You. Are. Wrong. People can play the game without ever interacting with a guild kiosk - the kiosk can be cut out of their play entirely. But people cannot do anything with a guild kiosk if they do not also play the game. Even flipping, buying low at A and selling higher at B, cannot be done without initial gold to invest - so it is true that the kiosks' survival depends on people playing the game, not the way you think of it.

They didn't build for an economic commerce megastore game, they built a fantasy sword and sorcery game. So trying to jackhammer an economic commerce megastore into a fantasy sword and sorcery game is YOUR issue, not the people who built for swords and spells.

As I keep saying, you are wrong. I direct you to comment #123:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3262428/#Comment_3262428

You think that Zos setting up space for a farmers market is the same as rebuilding infrastructure to handle a Walmart superstore. Guess what - there are plenty of 'trading guilds' that aren't chewing their fingernails come bid time, that aren't searching for a kiosk if their bid fails, that don't require such maintenance from their guild masters to function.

You wanna run that large, there's a cost. A sleep cost, a cost in free time on Mondays, a cost to be imposed on members in the form of dues, a cost in more free time to run raffles, and so on.

You all are willingly signing on to pay that cost, do not deny it. You choose to participate in making this slice of commerce in a fake world with fake money be worth more than time with your spouses and children and friends. You all are willingly sacrificing your own play time to grind out fake money to support a virtual store, leaving you with tired eyes and a list of virtual transactions that quickly scrolls off into the irrelevant history.

This is a solid example of "the tail wagging the dog".

Ixtyr

Lost my spot this week, didn't have a chance to scramble to get a backup like I normally would because I was at work.

This feeling of complete helplessness as a Guild Master is quite possibly the most depressing mixture of emotions one can feel when playing a game that's supposed to be fun and an escape from the BS happening IRL. I was awake, at my PC, waiting for the servers to come up this morning as I always am, at 8AM, patiently anticipating the server coming back up so I could check in and scramble if need be, and still the servers weren't up until well over an hour after they normally would be, and I couldn't sit around and miss work.

Despite that, I still sat around long enough that I ended up being more than 30 minutes LATE to work in the hopes that I might be able to get online in time to check in and make sure everything was okay (and, as I learned several hours later, everything was NOT okay, and my guild is completely screwed over for the next 7 days).

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, FIX THIS.

BenevolentBowd

Ixtyr wrote: »

Lost my spot this week, didn't have a chance to scramble to get a backup like I normally would because I was at work.

This feeling of complete helplessness as a Guild Master is quite possibly the most depressing mixture of emotions one can feel when playing a game that's supposed to be fun and an escape from the BS happening IRL. I was awake, at my PC, waiting for the servers to come up this morning as I always am, at 8AM, patiently anticipating the server coming back up so I could check in and scramble if need be, and still the servers weren't up until well over an hour after they normally would be, and I couldn't sit around and miss work.

Despite that, I still sat around long enough that I ended up being more than 30 minutes LATE to work in the hopes that I might be able to get online in time to check in and make sure everything was okay (and, as I learned several hours later, everything was NOT okay, and my guild is completely screwed over for the next 7 days).

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, FIX THIS.

I felt bad for you when I noticed your guild was missing from its regular spot while working on my weekly trader report. I have definitely noticed more variety in trader placements over the past several weeks. My only trade guild lost its trader bid this week and so I won't be selling much this week.

silvereyes

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert:

To be clear, this is all we are asking for right now:
"I have forwarded your request on to the management team, and will keep you informed of any progress."

We really appreciate you guys and gals. We love ESO and all the hard work ZOS does. We would just really appreciate at least the respect of acknowledging our request to deconflict kiosk flipping and maintenance times.

[edited for tone]

UltimaJoe777

silvereyes wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert:

It's so simple. Just repeat after me:
"I have forwarded your request on to the management team, and will keep you informed of any progress."
There. Was that so hard?

We really appreciate you guys and gals. We love ESO and all the hard work ZOS does. We would just really appreciate at least the respect of acknowledging our request to deconflict kiosk flipping and maintenance times.

Except you can never deconflict it because no matter when it happens it will disadvantage someone. Furthermore you're condescending tone towards gina and jessica is gonna be seriously frowned upon

silvereyes

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Except you can never deconflict it because no matter when it happens it will disadvantage someone. Furthermore you're condescending tone towards gina and jessica is gonna be seriously frowned upon

You're right about the tone. It did come out that way, although it was intended to be lighthearted. It's now been rephrased.

As far as deconfliction goes, let's let ZOS management decide what is possible or not, okay? They are the only ones that know all the variables right now, which is kind of the point of my post. We would like to have a respectful conversation, rather than being silently ignored.

I think the ideal would be to leave maintenance as it is and move the trader kiosk flip time to prime-time, since that affects nobody but traders. I know that suggestion was discounted in the past, but architecture changes, dependencies change. It might not be impossible anymore, who knows?

alexkdd99

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system.

It also is a shame that a trading guild must have a guild trader every week or it falls apart. There's no loyalty or reason to be in the guild other than having a kiosk?

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

ANYONE can join a guild with a trader in a high traffic zone. I don't know where this idea came from that trading guilds with high traffic traders are exclusive in any way. When I decided I wanted to start heavily selling stuff I joined 3 trading guilds in just a week. 2 of those 3 always have a trader in mournhold and rawlka.

So can we please stop pretending like people are unable to join guilds with traders. If you want to sell things in a trader all you have to do is ask to join the guilds that you always see with a trader. If the first one is full go to the next. I believe people just want to be greedy and not pay whatever fee the guild has or participate in any of the raffles. Find a trade guild and regularly contribute and problem solved.
Have gotten way off topic here, so I will throw this in as well. There really is no good reason as to why maintenance and trader flip time overlap when both are set entirely by ZOS.

Anslay

silvereyes wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert:

To be clear, this is all we are asking for right now:
"I have forwarded your request on to the management team, and will keep you informed of any progress."

We really appreciate you guys and gals. We love ESO and all the hard work ZOS does. We would just really appreciate at least the respect of acknowledging our request to deconflict kiosk flipping and maintenance times.

[edited for tone]

The team has been forwarding this feedback for a couple of months now and there has not been any followup, care, or response other than "it's been forwarded." In the mean time, the game is bleeding top tier GMs and stressing out the others that are remaining. I know several that have left; one of which is a close friend. I know others have cancelled their subs and I know that the part of me that loved this game has taken a huge hit. I only keep logging in presently because I care greatly for the people in my guild, but I've basically stopped playing the game otherwise.

Nothing is changing, nothing is indicating that anything is changing; it feels like there's a group of people that are thumbing their noses at our suffering.

I have always been very positive and supportive of ZOS in the past, but I cannot feel that way again until there is REAL change here on the issues we've stated as our BIGGEST PAIN POINTS:

(1) Bid Spying - we've BEGGED for a real fix for this for about a year and a half
(2) Maintenance Overlap w/Trader Turnover - I don't know how many other ways we can state how this horribly compounds the stress

The silent ignore treatment is BS; people's real lives are being impacted. We believed in a system that was put in place and are trying to live within the system while doing right by the communities we invested in. This is a FANTASTIC way to turn your biggest supporters toxic if that's what you're seeking.

If you can't turn this around easily (the presented solutions feel easy!), then please at least have the courtesy to explain 'why' and perhaps 'how long' it would take. It honestly feels like there's an active choice being made by one or more people to do nothing and just let this fester.

@ZOS_RichLambert

nooblybear

Anslay wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert:

To be clear, this is all we are asking for right now:
"I have forwarded your request on to the management team, and will keep you informed of any progress."

We really appreciate you guys and gals. We love ESO and all the hard work ZOS does. We would just really appreciate at least the respect of acknowledging our request to deconflict kiosk flipping and maintenance times.

[edited for tone]

The team has been forwarding this feedback for a couple of months now and there has not been any followup, care, or response other than "it's been forwarded." In the mean time, the game is bleeding top tier GMs and stressing out the others that are remaining. I know several that have left; one of which is a close friend. I know others have cancelled their subs and I know that the part of me that loved this game has taken a huge hit. I only keep logging in presently because I care greatly for the people in my guild, but I've basically stopped playing the game otherwise.

Nothing is changing, nothing is indicating that anything is changing; it feels like there's a group of people that are thumbing their noses at our suffering.

I have always been very positive and supportive of ZOS in the past, but I cannot feel that way again until there is REAL change here on the issues we've stated as our BIGGEST PAIN POINTS:

(1) Bid Spying - we've BEGGED for a real fix for this for about a year and a half
(2) Maintenance Overlap w/Trader Turnover - I don't know how many other ways we can state how this horribly compounds the stress

The silent ignore treatment is BS; people's real lives are being impacted. We believed in a system that was put in place and are trying to live within the system while doing right by the communities we invested in. This is a FANTASTIC way to turn your biggest supporters toxic if that's what you're seeking.

If you can't turn this around easily (the presented solutions feel easy!), then please at least have the courtesy to explain 'why' and perhaps 'how long' it would take. It honestly feels like there's an active choice being made by one or more people to do nothing and just let this fester... or maybe there's a hope that we'll just give up and go away.

I barely play the game any more, having handed over my guild to trusted officers, because of these issues. I felt ignored and stressed, and having not even an acknowledgement that Zenimax were aware and willing to do something about these issues was akin to screaming into a windstorm.

While this thread consists mostly of guild masters and officers of trading guilds (or those aware of the significant burdens involved), almost anyone in the game who participates in a trading guild of any kind is indirectly affected, they just aren't as aware of it as much as they might be about other large issues.

These issues affect everyone in the game, and they're not going away any time soon. Please fix them.

phaseadept

There's still an unanswered question: why are people sacrificing their lives for a guild trader?

phaseadept

alexkdd99 wrote: »

phaseadept wrote: »

It's hard not to look at this thread with some cynicism, mainly because of all the grief big trading guilds give players that are looking for other options to trade, like a public trader type system.

It also is a shame that a trading guild must have a guild trader every week or it falls apart. There's no loyalty or reason to be in the guild other than having a kiosk?

These are 500 man active guilds, there should be far more incentive than just selling stuff to people who can't afford to join the 1% Wall Street players.

ANYONE can join a guild with a trader in a high traffic zone. I don't know where this idea came from that trading guilds with high traffic traders are exclusive in any way. When I decided I wanted to start heavily selling stuff I joined 3 trading guilds in just a week. 2 of those 3 always have a trader in mournhold and rawlka.

So can we please stop pretending like people are unable to join guilds with traders. If you want to sell things in a trader all you have to do is ask to join the guilds that you always see with a trader. If the first one is full go to the next. I believe people just want to be greedy and not pay whatever fee the guild has or participate in any of the raffles. Find a trade guild and regularly contribute and problem solved.
Have gotten way off topic here, so I will throw this in as well. There really is no good reason as to why maintenance and trader flip time overlap when both are set entirely by ZOS.

Large trading guilds have requirements, like minimum sales, mandatory donations, etc.

So it's not fun to join them and have to go to work at home, and at Xbox.

There's no good reason someone should fear losing their guild because they don't have a trader for a week or two or three.

People can still sell within the guild, use public chat, etc.

Right?