Poorly thought out maintenance times and their conflict with economy mechanics

howdawut

FWIW. I've heard from a few sources how ZOS could be intentionally remaining silent on this issue and not taking any action in order to achieve some economic agenda in the game. I understand reasons for gold sinks and the necessity to adjust drop rates and the like but if it is true that they are using this 'method'...I'd be beyond disappointed they would resort to allowing this to fullfill that. Seems very unethical. To say, "well, we can't figure out a better way to do this legitimately, maybe if we 'ignore' this situation, it will accomplish what we want it to". Then if it does work out for ZOS, then why fix it ever?

It's more and more evident all the time how this game caters to the money of new/casual players. I understand it's a business first but they have developed a bad habit of ignoring the long-time/hardcore players. A GM of a top-tier trade guild is a hard-core player and the personal investment of work, time and dedication it takes to do their job goes unnoticed and unappreciated by most people. Stack this issue on top of that and then flat out ignore their pleas? ZOS could careless if you are losing sleep and are perfectly ok with those exploiting the system. They figure they've already made several dollars of yours and if you quit the game, there are others that will quickly assume (or try) your role.

(PAX West should be interesting when a few GMs can corner these ppl face-to-face.)

Also, thank you, @sylviermoone, @hiyde, @Anslay and all of your officers for all you do and sacrifices you make to secure some of best kiosks in Tamriel. I truly appreciate what you do.

Artis

To be honest, just the fact that you can't be online when the traders flip is not a reason to change the whole system. That's why you have officers - make sure you have an officer who can be online then and can grab an unclaimed trader if needed.

Other than that - I fully agree that the system should be changed. It was good and new when it appeared, but now time showed that some adjustments are necessary and will make more players benefit and have fun. And it's not about you not being in time - there's more to it. Just the fact that someone should be in time and,well, can be in time and grab a trader for 100g is not cool.

In fact, I have an idea that approaches the problem at a somewhat different angle. Take a look, if interested.

sylviermoone

Artis wrote: »

To be honest, just the fact that you can't be online when the traders flip is not a reason to change the whole system. That's why you have officers - make sure you have an officer who can be online then and can grab an unclaimed trader if needed.

Other than that - I fully agree that the system should be changed. It was good and new when it appeared, but now time showed that some adjustments are necessary and will make more players benefit and have fun. And it's not about you not being in time - there's more to it. Just the fact that someone should be in time and,well, can be in time and grab a trader for 100g is not cool.

In fact, I have an idea that approaches the problem at a somewhat different angle. Take a look, if interested.

Not to offend, but did you even read any of what people are saying here? This has nothing to do with not being online for personal reasons, and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that NO ONE can be online when the traders flip, because that is when ZOS has chosen to take the servers offline for maintenance.

Bid close and kiosk flip are the only mechanics in kiosk hiring. The server should not be offline when these things occur. This thread is now on page 11, and the silence is deafening.

Immortal_Dark410

sylviermoone wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

To be honest, just the fact that you can't be online when the traders flip is not a reason to change the whole system. That's why you have officers - make sure you have an officer who can be online then and can grab an unclaimed trader if needed.

Other than that - I fully agree that the system should be changed. It was good and new when it appeared, but now time showed that some adjustments are necessary and will make more players benefit and have fun. And it's not about you not being in time - there's more to it. Just the fact that someone should be in time and,well, can be in time and grab a trader for 100g is not cool.

In fact, I have an idea that approaches the problem at a somewhat different angle. Take a look, if interested.

Not to offend, but did you even read any of what people are saying here? This has nothing to do with not being online for personal reasons, and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that NO ONE can be online when the traders flip, because that is when ZOS has chosen to take the servers offline for maintenance.

Bid close and kiosk flip are the only mechanics in kiosk hiring. The server should not be offline when these things occur. This thread is now on page 11, and the silence is deafening.

It's Sad & goes to show that since no one from @ZOS is responding this issue will not be dealt with anytime soon

silvereyes

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom: just a friendly reminder that there are lots of people still waiting for a reply on this thread. I realize you are probably swamped with PAX and Update 12 PTS this week, so I'm doubting there will be any action before Monday's maintenance. But could we at least get some sort of indication of whether a response will ever be coming? Thanks!

smacx250

They listened - and have canceled maintenance from here on out!

(no maintenance this week)

Immortal_Dark410

smacx250 wrote: »

They listened - and have canceled maintenance from here on out!

(no maintenance this week)

lol well will see if they move it to another day but "Hail Everyone!!" none this week coming up !!

silvereyes

@sylviermoone, any luck finding someone at PAX to discuss bid spying and kiosk flip times / maintenance times?

smacx250

silvereyes wrote: »

@sylviermoone, any luck finding someone at PAX to discuss bid spying and kiosk flip times / maintenance times?

The question was asked near the end of the first stream at PAX yesterday. They said that there are disagreements between people about what should be done. The "feeling" I got from what was said was that there were those that thought the large guilds should just loose a bid and not get a trader, and that needing to scramble to get one was like, oh well...

There may be a recording of it and you can see what your take away is. I think this may be it (2:46min):

https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/87162133

zerosingularity

smacx250 wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

@sylviermoone, any luck finding someone at PAX to discuss bid spying and kiosk flip times / maintenance times?

The question was asked near the end of the first stream at PAX yesterday. They said that there are disagreements between people about what should be done. The "feeling" I got from what was said was that there were those that thought the large guilds should just loose a bid and not get a trader, and that needing to scramble to get one was like, oh well...

There may be a recording of it and you can see what your take away is. I think this may be it (2:46min):

https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/87162133

Well that's just disappointing. Listening to the response, it is clear they don't understand the actual situation at all. It's not a matter of control, but a matter of sanity. I wonder if it is possible to have an actual discussion instead of a Q&A about this topic?

sylviermoone

silvereyes wrote: »

@sylviermoone, any luck finding someone at PAX to discuss bid spying and kiosk flip times / maintenance times?

It was all I could do to hold my tongue during the live streams yesterday, especially during the One Tamriel panel when Rich mentioned in passing coming QoL improvements for guilds. I was able to sneak in a "Can you expand upon that please?", but what I absolutely did not want to do was start hounding them on a live stream and ruin the chance I had at reasonable discourse. Thank you, thank you, thank you to the members of the dev team I spoke with yesterday, and I look forward to seeing you again on Monday!

I spent a significant portion of the day talking with Phil Draven, the lead Systems Designer in my visit yesterday, and I came away with information that made me feel a hell of a lot better. I can say that there is no plan to change maintenance time. I wasn't able to get a clear why, but that is what that is. It sucks, but Gina was able to tell me that there is someone working on changing the kiosk flip time currently. No, I wasn't given an ETA. But it is being worked on, and that's something I think we can all agree would be an improvement.

In regard to bid spying, I feel confident in saying that the Dev team doesn't view it as anything other than what we all know it is: cheating. I can confirm that the addon I sent was received and they are looking into it. Part of the QoL improvements for guilds involve how the bank is interacted with. They are FINALLY going to introduce something like a tabbed guild bank, in which we can have better control over withdraw permissions. Part of that change is supposed to include what members can see or interact with the guild bank balance. Personally, I'd rather see the query guild bank return different values depending on a member's permissions within the guild, but removing the ability for people to view bank balance should remove the ability for paper and pencil bid spying and also addon assisted bid spying, too. I've run through a TON of scenarios with respected addon developers and other guild leaders, and I can't think of a solution that would completely remove bid spying. Restricting view of bank balance should make it so all but what SHOULD BE trusted members would not be able to spy.

All in all, I was impressed with the tone of my discussions with the team, and I had just a blast hanging around and nerding out all day.

Shout out to Finnigan, Matt, Gina, Jessica and Classy Katie. We are SOOO eating more crepes on Monday.

silvereyes

sylviermoone wrote: »

Gina was able to tell me that there is someone working on changing the kiosk flip time currently. No, I wasn't given an ETA. But it is being worked on, and that's something I think we can all agree would be an improvement.

In regard to bid spying, I feel confident in saying that the Dev team doesn't view it as anything other than what we all know it is: cheating. I can confirm that the addon I sent was received and they are looking into it. Part of the QoL improvements for guilds involve how the bank is interacted with. They are FINALLY going to introduce something like a tabbed guild bank, in which we can have better control over withdraw permissions. Part of that change is supposed to include what members can see or interact with the guild bank balance.

@sylviermoone, you are a hero. Thank you so much for being our ambassador.

That's great news about more fine-grained permissions and moving kiosk flip times. The no ETA thing is to be expected with One Tamriel so close, so I'm very happy it's already being worked on. I'm also not surprised about not moving maintenance. That doesn't really matter as much, as long as the kiosk flip doesn't interfere anymore.

I really hope the flip is moved to prime-time, both on NA and EU. If they are already changing schedule, it would be best to move it to a time that the vast majority of guild leaders are awake and not working. The most common suggestion I've heard on the forums is Sunday night.

I also really hope that there's a way to time-limit the new granular permissions somehow. Closing off visibility into how funds are handled can lead to distrust, so it would be best to have the option to only have it locked down during active bidding.

It's frustrating that any of this even required an in-person meeting. 20 minutes for someone from ZOS to post to the forums could have told us as much information, and saved weeks of anguish. So props to ZOS for prioritizing QoL for guilds. Tons of praise for that. A++. But communication needs some serious improvement.

silvereyes

Also, thank you, thank you, thank you to @ZOS_GinaBruno, Phil Draven and the dev team at PAX for making yourselves available and taking these issues seriously. It makes a HUGE difference to know that something is being done, even if development is still in the very early stages.

Immortal_Dark410

silvereyes wrote: »

Also, thank you, thank you, thank you to @ZOS_GinaBruno, Phil Draven and the dev team at PAX for making yourselves available and taking these issues seriously. It makes a HUGE difference to know that something is being done, even if development is still in the very early stages.

Agreed, Thank you at least we have some idea of what is taking place & happening & thank you to @sylviermoone for taking the time out to post & speak with them for others who can not make it down there to do so.

phaseadept

Good plans from ZOS, but hiding bank balance is going to cause trust issues.

silvereyes

So, looks like normal NA/EU PC maintenance again tomorrow, along with a PTS patch. I really hope they can get it done before kiosk flip this time.

Kiosk flip time reschedule can't come soon enough, IMO. It would be awesome to get an update on this from Gina, but my hopes aren't high with update 12 launch only 3 weeks away.

silvereyes

No maintenance this week!!!! W00t!!!

Immortal_Dark410

silvereyes wrote: »

No maintenance this week!!!! W00t!!!

yup Bliss lol

sylviermoone

This news is the highlight of my week.

silvereyes

No maintenance again!

Immortal_Dark410

silvereyes wrote: »

No maintenance again!

lol nice!

sylviermoone

silvereyes wrote: »

No maintenance again!

First no maintenance, then this gif. @silvereyes, you win the internet.

My day is complete.

Karraxx

Now is the winter of our discotent

also, no maintenance is a good thing, weird to see it moved to wednesday though