A trader for people outside guilds

bryanhaas · July 2016

DenMoria wrote: »

bryanhaas wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So Some people, for one reason or another, don't feel like being part of a guild, prefering the lone wolf aproach to the game.. What I feel that we lack, is a trader for said people.. Like the rest of us, they have stuff to sell that other people might like to buy.. Instead of spamming WTS in the chat, how about allowing them to access a "region salesman" or something like that? There are merchants everywhere, so why not tap into that resource, but only for people outside guilds.. Give them 30 slots to fill up with items, and make it work like a guild trader.. Any player will be able to access the merchant, browsing the goods, and the player will be mailed his gold as usual..
Furthermore, I suggest allowing them the possibility of selling items at 2-3 traders, so that he won't be as effective as a player with max guilds, but not locked in only 1 city either.. I think this system could be pretty great with some adjustments, as I have surely not taken everything into account here.. But the main point is that it's an option that is only available to people with no guilds, so they can get rid of their stuff.. Another advantage of this, could be that the guilds might get sorted their members.. The ones who actually want a guild will stay, while the ones who are just there for the trader can leave.. That might serve to unite the guilds a little more

So, what do you guys think?

There are plenty of trade guilds why would they not be acceptable? You don't really have to participate other they give gold to pay for said trader.

But why? Why am I supporting a trader that I don't interact with? Is it because they're at a location that I'll probably never come to anyhow but others like it?

I think one of the other posters has a point. Me, I'm not interested in "selling" my items, unless I can undercut the outrageous price requests of some people. Chances are, whatever trader I'm seeing (and let me tell you, I've looked at more than a few) are overcharging incredibly for items (for some reason, particularly low level crafting items - I can see gold resources or very powerful weapons or armor, but 10K for a blue resto/lightning staff? Who are they kidding).

Example: My 12th level sorceress wanted to upgrade her weapon and didn't have the skill up yet, so she went to her mages guild. Guess what! They had a blue lightninging/frost staff (just what she was looking for) doing 311 for 5500. She though, cool! I have plenty of gold and bought it (since she's upgraded it and changed out one of the runes). She happened to peek in to a guild trader she happened to be passing and the exact same staff was on sale for 15000! What? What kind of fool would spend that much?

Another example: Need a couple of wormwood to complete a writ and didn't feel like looking for any. Went to a few in-game vendors, nothing. Check a couple of traders. Yay! Had some.. wait? what? 1700 each! Who were they kidding. Happened to know where I could pick about 12 of them in an area, although it would take me 10 minutes to get there so I just went and picked them for free.

Maybe those of us who would like to just turn in our excess rather then sell it should just sell it to the ingame vendors. It's easy, they're everywhere (even just wandering the landscape) and there aren't any complications.

If you don't interact with the trader then you are not selling stuff so then what is this conversation about? I am confused. All I know want to sell stuff join a trading guild pay the dues for the trader (good areas can go for 3 mil) and sell your items.

I really don't see your point.

bryanhaas · July 2016

DenMoria wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So Some people, for one reason or another, don't feel like being part of a guild, prefering the lone wolf aproach to the game..

So, what do you guys think?

I think that you should accept invite from a guild which have trader somewhere in the wild, the most cheapest one thus you would not be forced to make weekly donation or sell to avoid being kicked or to keep the trader in good location. I'm sure there are plenty of guilds with lone wolfs, people who never speak on guild chat or participate in guild activities, or never respond to invites for a dungeon...

Maybe I should just start one or two for us to use. What do you think @Daemons_Bane;281592?

Thats a great idea, now you just need 48 more people to tag along. Enjoy the bidding as well.

See, there's your solution!

Well, that's out the window. Don't bid, don't want a location. Oh well. In game traders are fine with me.

Traders are a gold sink, XOD

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Okay can we move past the point where we keep getting posts like " you can be in a guild and just not interact with it "? I know that this is possible, and works for some ok? Good, now with that settled, can we actually try and focus on the topic that's up for discussion?

No because the majority of us don't see the problem with joining a trade guild what you are saying just appears illogical. It seems like you don't want to play with other players in an MMO and if that is the case why not just stay on Skryim?

bryanhaas · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

We seem to do that a lot in this thread though I am not really seeing any arguments against the suggestion.. a lot of useless "get in a guild" posts, but not really any arguments

What you are requesting is unlikely to happen, what about a player to act as a pawn broker for you? I do that for people in my guild.

Tandor · July 2016

Glyntt wrote: »

This sounds an awful lot like asking for an Auction House without using those words. My answer is still 'No.'

Join a trade guild if you want to trade.

This suggestion has absolutely nothing in common with an auction house. It retains the existing guild trader system in its entirety and adds a small number of separate NPC traders with restricted listing of items the commission from which goes to the trading guilds in that locality.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

so that has to be dismantled to suit a few malcontents

No one talked about dismantling anything we're talking about adding stuff.. That's quite the opposite

lol....i throw in a bone and you jump on it and gloss over the substantive point.

why, given that there are four methods to sell stuff should resources be diverted into producing a fifth method?

just because someone says i don't want to do that?

guilds as a venue for trading are a core part of the game - an option. just like joining a club, join and you get the benefits...

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

I also see the cost of things going up as well. People put things up and increase cost to make up for the listing fee, people in a trade guild see listing price and match that.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, mind you, I'm a devil's advocate.

I also see a potential for gold sellers to take advantage of this. At least right now, a guild who checks regularly on their listers can keep them at bay.

I actually don't see prices going up by this

Some would try ofc, but if guilds sell for cheaper, the solo players would have to adapt or not get any sales.. But how do you see gold sellers taking advantage here?

Daemons_Bane wrote: »
Okay can we move past the point where we keep getting posts like " you can be in a guild and just not interact with it "? I know that this is possible, and works for some ok? Good, now with that settled, can we actually try and focus on the topic that's up for discussion?

No because the majority of us don't see the problem with joining a trade guild what you are saying just appears illogical. It seems like you don't want to play with other players in an MMO and if that is the case why not just stay on Skryim?

Please, enough with thinking that I want this for myself

I know, and understand, that it may appear illogical, but some people simply don't like the guild concept, so they stay out of it, for whatever reason they have.. I just suggest this so that said people have a better way to barter.. Not as good as in a guild, but better than running around shouting WTS all the time

What you are requesting is unlikely to happen, what about a player to act as a pawn broker for you? I do that for people in my guild.

Interesting suggestion, but how would that work?

@jedtb16_ESO, I don't think we can move this any closer to an understanding

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

how is an npc trader with limited slots and a high tax better than selling direct to other players with no tax?

seem illogical?

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

All I can say is try and read the thread.. If you don't get the idea by now, there's not much I can do to explain to you.. You're coming off as either unwilling/unable to understand the concept, or a little trollish

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

All I can say is try and read the thread.. If you don't get the idea by now, there's not much I can do to explain to you.. You're coming off as either unwilling/unable to understand the concept, or a little trollish

i have read the thread. understanding the concept is one thing, agreeing with it is something else entirely. i continue because you do not seem to have cogent answers to some of the points raised against your idea - that is called debating not trolling.

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

I have given answers to all the points, such as they are atm.. but from your earlier posts, I take it you don't use guild merchants either.. I am just not willing to accept that going around shouting WTS is a good way to do it for people not in guilds.. Therefore, I propose a solution.. should not be that hard

Slurg · July 2016

The guild store system works well for most people; you can be as antisocial as you want and still be in a very good trade guild as long as you are selling high enough volume.

But I also have supported the idea of an unaffiliated regional merchant in the past, a consignment store type system where people can list a very small number of items with a merchant at a very high tax rate. It should not be in every zone though, maybe just one for each alliance. If you are a high volume seller, you would still be better off with a trade guild. But if you only want to sell a handful of items on the market outside the NPC vendor system this would give you an outlet to do that.

Something like this could also help members of trade guilds who lost their kiosk bid that week and want to offload a few high value items.

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

Slurg wrote: »

The guild store system works well for most people; you can be as antisocial as you want and still be in a very good trade guild as long as you are selling high enough volume.

But I also have supported the idea of an unaffiliated regional merchant in the past, a consignment store type system where people can list a very small number of items with a merchant at a very high tax rate. It should not be in every zone though, maybe just one for each alliance. If you are a high volume seller, you would still be better off with a trade guild. But if you only want to sell a handful of items on the market outside the NPC vendor system this would give you an outlet to do that.

Something like this could also help members of trade guilds who lost their kiosk bid that week and want to offload a few high value items.

Bold 1: I really wish we could let that horse die now

beating it over and over again is cruel
Bold 2: If not making it regional, where would you then physically place the merchant? It should be so that everyone has access to him.. My idea was to have him in the capital cities.. There's one of them in each zone, making it easy to get to him

kamimark · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

So Some people, for one reason or another, don't feel like being part of a guild, prefering the lone wolf aproach to the game.. What I feel that we lack, is a trader for said people..

Make a pure trading guild, discourage chat in channel (or just turn guild chat off in your tabs).

The problem is pure trading guild leaders sometimes get bored, abandon the guild, and then there's no trader, new recruits, or access to the bank. So I've now left all my old defunct pure trading guilds, and I'm in more social trading guilds, because I know they'll stay active.

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

Make a pure trading guild, discourage chat in channel (or just turn guild chat off in your tabs).

Again, srry to say, but useless

The no leader thing though.. That's a PITA.. Experienced that a lot in other mmos

Cryptical · July 2016

bryanhaas wrote: »

No because the majority of us don't see the problem with joining a trade guild what you are saying just appears illogical. It seems like you don't want to play with other players in an MMO and if that is the case why not just stay on Skryim?

Walking around the tree wearing out your voice repeating "dreugh wax for sale" for 3 hours IS NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL.

Doing it while competing with the yahoo next to the bank that is playing dub step into his mic IS NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL.

Then having to steer clear of the knobs doing the emote dancing to the current top 40 hits over at the back near the enchanting table IS NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL.

Then you get the squeaky voice people following you around the room asking over and over "What's dreugh wax? Who was that with dreugh wax? Can you tell me what it is? What is dreugh wax for? How do you get dreugh wax? How do I get dreugh wax? Where do I get it? " and that IS NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL.

And 95% of the people walking through have the area chat turned off because of the yahoos and knobs and squeaky voices, so it takes a long time of standing there NOT PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL, with your voice reaching only that room.

If you really want to make a game out of commerce, why are you on a game where the objective is to use magic/weapons to kill monsters/enemy team? It seems that if you really want to be playing a game of commerce you would be off running roller coaster tycoon or sim farm or some other business simulation game like "Capitalism" -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism_(video_game)

You fail to realize that the guild trader system exists as a consequence of playing the game. This is not a business sim game, it is a swords and sorcery kill the monster game.

Edited to get that link to work correctly.

Cryptical · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how is an npc trader with limited slots and a high tax better than selling direct to other players with no tax?

seem illogical?

Because an npc trader with limited slots and a high tax is online during people's 8 (hah!) hours sleep, and during people's 10 (grrr!) hours working, and during their time spent at the grocery store, or the dentist, or getting the car's oil changed and brakes replaced.

The npc trader is there when people are watching dr who, or the walking dead, or the political debates, or their kids dance recital.

Is this fundamental problem with 'selling direct' really that hard to grasp?

Junipus · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

An auction house thread by any other name is still an auction house thread.

They haven't done anything on it in 2 years because they already use guilds so another thread masquerading as a different idea (whether intentional or unintentional) will not make a difference.

You can stick your AH where the sun don't shine.. This is in NO WAY, a request for a global, or any other kind of auction.. It's a merchant, in no way different from those already in the game.. You purchase a ware, you don't bid on it.

Explain exactly how an open vendor slot where anyone can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees etc is different from an auction house where players can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees?

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

Junipus wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

An auction house thread by any other name is still an auction house thread.

They haven't done anything on it in 2 years because they already use guilds so another thread masquerading as a different idea (whether intentional or unintentional) will not make a difference.

You can stick your AH where the sun don't shine.. This is in NO WAY, a request for a global, or any other kind of auction.. It's a merchant, in no way different from those already in the game.. You purchase a ware, you don't bid on it.

Explain exactly how an open vendor slot where anyone can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees etc is different from an auction house where players can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees?

You and I must have very different opinions as to what an AH is.. To me, it's a global thing where people can come and put things up for auction, aka bidding, with the possibility to sometimes outbid your opponents.. That system allows for people to monopolize items, effectively letting them setting the prices that they want.. This game has no AH, and hopefully will never get it.. My suggestion would not start an AH, the way I see it

How is my suggestion worse than the guild traders? The way I see it, it's just expanding a system already in game.. It's making it available to another group of players..

Tandor · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

how is an npc trader with limited slots and a high tax better than selling direct to other players with no tax?

seem illogical?

It isn't remotely illogical. It's not aimed at you and others in doubtless multiple trading guilds with high volume turnover, it's aimed at those who don't want to join guilds (for whatever reasons, it isn't for one player to criticise another player for taking a different view to him on how to play the game), those who can't join trading guilds because they don't have a high enough volume of stuff to sell but don't want to spend their time ingame hawking their wares on zone chat (PC/Mac) or area voice (console), as well as those who belong to a trading guild but don't have a trader.

Junipus · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

An auction house thread by any other name is still an auction house thread.

They haven't done anything on it in 2 years because they already use guilds so another thread masquerading as a different idea (whether intentional or unintentional) will not make a difference.

You can stick your AH where the sun don't shine.. This is in NO WAY, a request for a global, or any other kind of auction.. It's a merchant, in no way different from those already in the game.. You purchase a ware, you don't bid on it.

Explain exactly how an open vendor slot where anyone can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees etc is different from an auction house where players can buy/sell goods to anyone else within the game with associated transaction fees?

You and I must have very different opinions as to what an AH is.. To me, it's a global thing where people can come and put things up for auction, aka bidding, with the possibility to sometimes outbid your opponents.. That system allows for people to monopolize items, effectively letting them setting the prices that they want.. This game has no AH, and hopefully will never get it.. My suggestion would not start an AH, the way I see it

How is my suggestion worse than the guild traders? The way I see it, it's just expanding a system already in game.. It's making it available to another group of players..

Then perhaps an auction house isn't the best term, but it's still essentially the same system where it's open to all where people can set prices and people can monopolize things. If you see the existing prices in guild stores, most of them are set by people manipulating prices and hoarding large quantities of items recently in order to help control the market.

While your idea isn't a bad one, there's practically zero chance of it being implemented because the only difference between it and the existing system is the non-existent socialization factor.

Agobi · July 2016

Danksta wrote: »

I used to be in a strictly trading guild. You know how many of the 400+ members I ever communicated with? One, it was the GM and only once here on these forums so I could join. There was absolutely no social aspect to the guild, so you can be a "lone wolf" and still be in a trading guild.

Pretty much this...I have been in a 500 member trading guild since almost day 1...never said a word in guildchat ever

Just join some random guild thats recruiting..and sell your stuff

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

Then perhaps an auction house isn't the best term, but it's still essentially the same system where it's open to all where people can set prices and people can monopolize things. If you see the existing prices in guild stores, most of them are set by people manipulating prices and hoarding large quantities of items recently in order to help control the market.

Not sure you have ever seen AH monopoly then.. If this games' system reminds you of an AH, you will one day get a nasty chock..

Agobi wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

I used to be in a strictly trading guild. You know how many of the 400+ members I ever communicated with? One, it was the GM and only once here on these forums so I could join. There was absolutely no social aspect to the guild, so you can be a "lone wolf" and still be in a trading guild.

Pretty much this...I have been in a 500 member trading guild since almost day 1...never said a word in guildchat ever

Just join some random guild thats recruiting..and sell your stuff

Useless.. again...

I_killed_Vivec · July 2016

I'd like to look at the proposal from a different perspective.

Say you want to find something specific, at a reasonable price. Currently you have to go round the traders, and I'm sure most of us have our favourites rather than making a complete circuit...

Now, with a regional trading operation you wouldn't have to. Why bother visiting individual traders when you can visit a regional trader whose goods aren't limited to those sold by 500 people, but can sell items from thousands of people?

And it's proposed to have one of these traders in all of the capital cities? Prime retail locations, the like of which my guilds cannot guarantee from week to week - and have to pay a load of cash to secure. So not only do the regional traders have the advantage of potentially offering more goods but they also have the most convenient locations.

Why would a buyer (not affected by the tax) walk past the regional trader to get to my guild trader? Particularly if they are going there in any case to put their own items up for sale.

What is being suggested has the potential to undermine the whole trade guild system and replace it with a (semi) global trader system (state run too!).

Now the antisocial lone wolves among us might like that thought, but I imagine that ZoS, who implemented the whole guild trading system for a reason, might not be so happy.

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

Some really good points here, and some stuff that had not crossed my mind.. Ofc the "free" trader should not have better placing than those being paid for, but then whwre should we put them

the reason I chose the capitals was because guild traders were there in their hub.. About the case of thousands of people in 1 trader, that could maybe be solved with a limitation, so that each trader could only hold a certain number of items.?

Woeler · July 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

I think there should be a draw back for this "lone wolf" approach, MMO's are a social experience, join a guild. And if all you care about is selling stuff and really don't want to socialize with people, you can create a chat tab with g-chat turned off.

My thoughts exactly.

Tandor · July 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Some really good points here, and some stuff that had not crossed my mind.. Ofc the "free" trader should not have better placing than those being paid for, but then whwre should we put them the reason I chose the capitals was because guild traders were there in their hub.. About the case of thousands of people in 1 trader, that could maybe be solved with a limitation, so that each trader could only hold a certain number of items.?

If you limit the number of items that can be listed in total on the NPC trader then I can see that creating problems of people always missing out as well as it being open to abuse through "blocking" the players for whom it was intended. Given that it is principally casual traders that the suggested addition to the trading system is aimed at, it would be covered really if you could list literally only two or three items each. It simply wouldn't be worthwhile for most people to use the NPC trader but for those who didn't have enough stuff to sell to justify joining a trading guild but who wanted a better option than using zone chat or area voice then it would be ideal.

Daemons_Bane · July 2016

@Tandor has a point

maybe it could be solved by reducing the number of trade slots available to each player.. I like this development process

radiostar · July 2016

A beginning quest that explains the trader system would be extremely helpful to vestiges just starting out. And if some of the proceeds are going to the local trader guilds, I don't know why they would not support it. Z, why wouldn't you want to explain trading in ESO to newbies beyond the zone chat? Not everyone reads your forum, great as it is!

It's a stepping stone to seeking a trading guild. Will some players never ever join a trade guild (like we have right now) and only use the 5 or 10 slots from the starter towns? Sure, but so what? You've got all those extra goods in play and the possibility they will want to post 30 (to make more gold) and start looking for a player trading guild. Which brings up another thing Z needs to do: Have a request invite window on the trader, and increase trading guild size past 500. Those are two big issues Z hasn't addressed yet.

In the meantime, there would be all these starter traders with a new influx of items for trade guild players to gather up and resell. That's a large part of the guild trader "system," buying lower priced items and reselling for a higher amount of gold. Can't believe Z would let that opportunity pass. You don't think buyers from the trade guilds would be checking out what's being offered so they can purchase and relist profitable items?

Personally, I retired from trade guilds b/c I got /so-tired of the inane g-chat (sex jokes, race jokes, fat jokes--it was like gag me, ok so you're a comedian who can't get a gig). Plus the email spam to buy a ticket or deposit x-amount by a certain day to get a trader. (But that's just me, another player might have a great experience for a longer time.) I started putting all my stuff into my one social guild and periodically we'd get a message that the vault is full, please come take what you want or it all gets deconned/sold.

If a non-guild trader npc were up, I'd take the best 5 or 10 items and list it. At least those profits would roll back into the area guilds that got a trader that week.

Rayya_Blackheart · July 2016

Again, with the quote system GAH!

My point about gold sellers: Right now, if you have a person join your trading guild and list a blue lvl 6 weapon at 500k and a Ta at 600k with a name that looks like someone just punched their keyboard, it's reasonable to conclude that the account is a gold seller. You make contact, make an assessment, and then kick them if necessary.

Gold sellers use the trade market to bounce the gold that the seller acquired either via hacking and stealing someone's gold from their account or guilds that they have access to, or botting. So gold seller A buys those 1.1mil worth of items from gold seller B who turns around and buys smaller listed items from a hidden gold seller C. It's like those stupid Western Union scams.

Guilds keep this in check, open market cannot. I mean... it's plausible... but look at how well exploits and cheats are kept in check.

Also, in addition to the regional trader, (which is an amazing point) on PC with the right addon it's easy to find what you're looking for. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would be to go to a trader on console and find the item you're looking for with an NPC that is not limited to 15,000 items.

CromulentForumID · July 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Guilds are also accessible to all, they usually invite anyone if there's a free spot. How's that a "barrier"?
And these comparisons are not correct. I can go pvp without a guild and just pug or go alone, and I can sell items without any guilds, in /z chat. But in pvp, pve or trading, joining a guild is very beneficial.

The barriers are:
1. Finding one to join that has fees you can afford
2. Finding someone who can invite you to said guild
3. Time spent looking outside the game to find these if you can't find them in-game
4. If on console, no text chat. I would call having to run around asking in voice chat is a barrier.

Are these insurmountable? No. But they are a barrier. Especially number 3.