Mist form not giving snare immunity properly in some scenarios

Wollust

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Yes , this is still not working as intended or described .

I agree it isn't working as described.

I'm afraid ZoS believes it is, however, working as intended. They intend, for reasons unknown, that gap-closers inflict an automatic and unpurgable snare on the target.

The reason is when someone uses a gap closer on a fast-moving target, they don't end up in a place the target was standing in one second ago(when the gap closer button was pressed), and out of melee range.

Imagine trying to gap-close a sprinting orc in medium armor who has major expedition on. You could never touch him. By the time the gap closer animation would finish, he would be 10m away.

The gap closer snare wasn't always there and it was fine back then. The snare in its current form is just pure cancer. Why else are there special ones just spamming ambush on people?

Ehm... back then we had an unpurgable root, and it was much worse than the snare we have today...
See: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/239649/gap-closer-root-is-increasingly-becoming-the-last-straw-for-me-cant-see-a-reason-to-continue/p1

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh, the horror of playing PvP without unpurgable root/snares and where a major buff to mobility might be a thing.

I know you're being sarcastic, but without functioning gap closers, the PvP would be pretty bad. Can you imagine the forums? "I used a gap closer 8 times in a row and it never connected with this fast-moving guy even once! Your game is broken ZOS!"

No, back then when there was actually no root or snare or anything. Like.. almost 2 years ago. How you can defend a broken/lazy/stupid mechanic is simply beyond me.

ZOS is a business, not a charity. They would not have spent money and manpower to change a mechanic that was working well. The fact they added roots/snares to gap closers without anyone pointing a gun at them means it was needed for gap closers to function properly.

Nope, I won't even point out anymore how stupid this reasoning is.

Yuke

Same problem as OP describes applies to the Forward Momentum morph (other Rally Morph) btw.

Im getting snared and rooted all the time while having the 8 sec immunity.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Does ZOS now how much we hate the gap closer snare? How much it destoyed solo roaming and allows a few spambushers to lock players down until their zerg arrives?

Is their anyway for us to have an open discussion with ZOS about their vision for PvP, if they even have one? I just want them to say "yeah, we know that our PvP players on the whole don't like the choices we make for them without asking them but our vision in PvP is designed to buff less experienced players and make sure that skill isn't much of a factor once you have unlocked your gap closer."

I'd be happy with that response if they just admitted it.

Jaronking

Hey @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler can we have a update on this?This shouldn't be happening.

Joy_Division

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Yes , this is still not working as intended or described .

I agree it isn't working as described.

I'm afraid ZoS believes it is, however, working as intended. They intend, for reasons unknown, that gap-closers inflict an automatic and unpurgable snare on the target.

The reason is when someone uses a gap closer on a fast-moving target, they don't end up in a place the target was standing in one second ago(when the gap closer button was pressed), and out of melee range.

Imagine trying to gap-close a sprinting orc in medium armor who has major expedition on. You could never touch him. By the time the gap closer animation would finish, he would be 10m away.

The gap closer snare wasn't always there and it was fine back then. The snare in its current form is just pure cancer. Why else are there special ones just spamming ambush on people?

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh, the horror of playing PvP without unpurgable root/snares and where a major buff to mobility might be a thing.

I know you're being sarcastic, but without functioning gap closers, the PvP would be pretty bad. Can you imagine the forums? "I used a gap closer 8 times in a row and it never connected with this fast-moving guy even once! Your game is broken ZOS!"

Not so. I do not remember any screaming, whining, or complaining about gap closers being useless before they put that dumb auto root/snare in. In fact, I clearly recall the only issue being the templar toppling charge, and that had nothing to do with hitting the target, rather constantly failing to go off. In fact, gap closers were being spammed back then too: templars used toppling despite it often bugging out and every single DK used Invasion.

The auto root/snare was one of many things ZoS "fixed" even though no pressing problem existed in the first place.

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition. In fact, I would argue since gap closers are just a mundane skill usable any time whereas major expedition requires a buff to actually attain that status, it should trump a gap closer. Also, it's not like ZoS "fixed" the game. I used mist form 8 times in a row and I could not move away even once! Your game is broken ZoS!

Sharee

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Wollust

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

HoloYoitsu

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

He's right, fast movement is so useful. It makes the crit rush spamming mouth breathers do more dmg to me with each crit rush.

Sharee

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

Rohamad_Ali

Jaronking wrote: »

Hey @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler can we have a update on this?This shouldn't be happening.

I haven't seen any Devs responding since last month on the dev tracker . I think they are hiding while finishing one Tamriel .

thankyourat

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

60% snare is more than a minor movement restriction. It's also ruining solo play for most mag builds. Most of the time when fighting I can't move it's always a nightblade spamming ambush on me. It's too many snares in the game already but there is no counterplay to the gap closer snare. It's just encouraging bad play. It's worse than all these proc sets

Drummerx04

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

If you mean that their function is to provide gap closing for the zergs, then yes, It is working as intended. But right now if I'm trying to outmaneuver a large group and ANY of their players make it into gap closer range, then they just spam gap closers snaring the crap out of me until more can spam them to snare the crap out of me until the zerg proper can run me over.

The point being, that it's not just a gap closer for the caster. It's a gap closer for the entire group, and the only thing that "purges" it is a dodge roll which is abysmally expensive for a magicka build.

Sharee

thankyourat wrote: »

there is no counterplay to the gap closer snare.

If gap closers were not reliably closing gaps, there would be no counterplay to fast-moving ranged attackers.

Rohamad_Ali

Sharee wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

there is no counterplay to the gap closer snare.

If gap closers were not reliably closing gaps, there would be no counterplay to fast-moving ranged attackers.

Crippling grasp , Stone fist , Templar javelins , Crystal frags will all stop anyone running away . You may say dodge is a problem but when these abilities get spammed by groups you are not going anywhere .

Sharee

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

there is no counterplay to the gap closer snare.

If gap closers were not reliably closing gaps, there would be no counterplay to fast-moving ranged attackers.

Crippling grasp , Stone fist , Templar javelins , Crystal frags will all stop anyone running away . You may say dodge is a problem but when these abilities get spammed by groups you are not going anywhere .

Dodge immunity does not care how many projectiles were in flight. Even if it did, there are not always groups to spam them. And i find it a bit ironic that when i mention ranged builds would be a problem, the solution is: ranged attacks... yea.

Jaronking

I just want to say have anyone else notice that when 3-4 people gap closer you now you can't move.Like all the snares add up to a immobilize.

thankyourat

Jaronking wrote: »

I just want to say have anyone else notice that when 3-4 people gap closer you now you can't move.Like all the snares add up to a immobilize.

Happened to me the other day at the Chalman gate. I just put my weapon away and let them kill me

frozywozy

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

If you mean that their function is to provide gap closing for the zergs, then yes, It is working as intended. But right now if I'm trying to outmaneuver a large group and ANY of their players make it into gap closer range, then they just spam gap closers snaring the crap out of me until more can spam them to snare the crap out of me until the zerg proper can run me over.

The point being, that it's not just a gap closer for the caster. It's a gap closer for the entire group, and the only thing that "purges" it is a dodge roll which is abysmally expensive for a magicka build.

That's exactly it. Could not have said it better.

Lava_Croft

You people don't like the fact that once the zerg is in gap closer range, you all of a sudden are knee deep into a mixture of Hubba Bubba and Marmite?

That's just odd.

Wollust

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

I'm sorry but this reasoning is complete and utter bs. It implies that ZoS is always right with what they are doing, which they simply aren't. There is more than enough cases of them doing things no one ever asked for, including reversing such things after player feedback/protest.
The gap closer change is such a thing no one asked for. And after a lot of pressure they did lighten the whole thing up my removing the root at least, which they were convinced of was needed for the gap closers to work. Surprise surprise, it wasn't.

Saying the movement restriction is minor tells me that you have never experienced the horror of having it spammed on you. The restriction is huge. And I know it's not necessary because we didn't always have it and that was fine. No matter how often you keep saying ZoS must have a reason to do it. They don't, the only reason I can imagine they have is simply dumbing down the combat, which they have been doing reliably for the past 2 years.

Even I as a pure melee player can not accept a cheesy mechanic like this one. No idea why you would.

Sharee

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And, I fail to see why gap closers should have priority over fast movement or major expedition.

Because the purpose of a gap closer is to close the gap. The purpose of major expedition is to move fast, not to prevent gap closers.

Fast movement is always useful. Gap closers that do not close gaps are not.

Yes but the purpose of a gap closer shouldn't be to restrict/hinder your targets movements. Which they are currently doing.
We managed to gap close back in the day even without such mechanics. And it worked fine. Maybe you had to cast it a second time but that didn't seem like a big issue (if I remember correctly).
Movement and mobility in general has been punished too heavily over the past 1.5 years or so.

The minor movement restriction is a necessary evil to allow gap closers to reliably perform their function. Again, if it was not necessary it would not have been added. Keep in mind this issue becomes worse as lag increases. As i'm sure you remember, there was very little lag back at release, when gap closers applied no movement restriction on target. That may have left the impression that they worked fine.

I'm sorry but this reasoning is complete and utter bs. It implies that ZoS is always right with what they are doing, which they simply aren't.

It implies that gap closers are not working fine without the movement restriction. I am not saying ZOS are always right, but if there was no reason whatsoever to change a perfectly working gap closer, they would not have had a reason to divert finite resources towards fixing it. It costs money. They are not throwing money away for no reason.

Wollust wrote: »

The gap closer change is such a thing no one asked for. And after a lot of pressure they did lighten the whole thing up my removing the root at least, which they were convinced of was needed for the gap closers to work.

And this is another piece of evidence that movement restriction is necessary for gap closers to work properly. They looked at it again, had the opportunity to remove it, yet again decided that some sort of movement restriction has to be in place for gap closers to work reliably.

Wollust wrote: »

Saying the movement restriction is minor tells me that you have never experienced the horror of having it spammed on you. The restriction is huge.

What i meant is that it is minor compared to what it was in the previous version (when it was a root).

Wollust wrote: »

And I know it's not necessary because we didn't always have it and that was fine.

We didn't have it back at release when there was little to no lag in PvP. The root wasn't added until much later, when lag started becoming a problem. The worse the lag, the less reliable gap closers become at connecting with a moving target. It was working fine back then. It would not work fine today.

Lava_Croft

I think the trust that @Sharee places in ZOS' judgement is a bit too much given his (I think) more than two years of experience with ESO and ZOS.

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think the trust that @Sharee places in ZOS' judgement is a bit too much given his (I think) more than two years of experience with ESO and ZOS.

It is not so much trust in ZOS as simply understanding the limitations of MMO's.

If the server has to move a character from A to B, and it takes 2 seconds to do so(taking animation duration and lag into account), then the object at the destination had 2 seconds to continue movement. If his speed is such that he can cover enough distance in 2 seconds to move far enough away from B to be out of melee range, then a gap closer would never be able to put his attacker in a position to melee attack him.

This is simple math.

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think the trust that @Sharee places in ZOS' judgement is a bit too much given his (I think) more than two years of experience with ESO and ZOS.

It is not so much trust in ZOS as simply understanding the limitations of MMO's.

If the server has to move a character from A to B, and it takes 2 seconds to do so(taking animation duration and lag into account), then the object at the destination had 2 seconds to continue movement. If his speed is such that he can cover enough distance in 2 seconds to move far enough away from B to be out of melee range, then a gap closer would never be able to put his attacker in a position to melee attack him.

This is simple math.

The math might be simple, but I don't really think it ever bothered anyone that there wasn't a gap closer root/snare since it really just wasn't an issue.

It's a common thing for ZOS to only look at the math in theory instead of what happens in practice.

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think the trust that @Sharee places in ZOS' judgement is a bit too much given his (I think) more than two years of experience with ESO and ZOS.

It is not so much trust in ZOS as simply understanding the limitations of MMO's.

If the server has to move a character from A to B, and it takes 2 seconds to do so(taking animation duration and lag into account), then the object at the destination had 2 seconds to continue movement. If his speed is such that he can cover enough distance in 2 seconds to move far enough away from B to be out of melee range, then a gap closer would never be able to put his attacker in a position to melee attack him.

This is simple math.

The math might be simple, but I don't really think it ever bothered anyone that there wasn't a gap closer root/snare since it really just wasn't an issue.

It wasn't an issue until lag became an issue. Again, the worse the lag, the less reliable the gap closing. We had next to no lag at release, which is why the lack of a root/snare didn't bother anyone (or rather, the issue wasn't serious enough yet to warrant a change).

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think the trust that @Sharee places in ZOS' judgement is a bit too much given his (I think) more than two years of experience with ESO and ZOS.

It is not so much trust in ZOS as simply understanding the limitations of MMO's.

If the server has to move a character from A to B, and it takes 2 seconds to do so(taking animation duration and lag into account), then the object at the destination had 2 seconds to continue movement. If his speed is such that he can cover enough distance in 2 seconds to move far enough away from B to be out of melee range, then a gap closer would never be able to put his attacker in a position to melee attack him.

This is simple math.

The math might be simple, but I don't really think it ever bothered anyone that there wasn't a gap closer root/snare since it really just wasn't an issue.

It wasn't an issue until lag became an issue. Again, the worse the lag, the less reliable the gap closing. We had next to no lag at release, which is why the lack of a root/snare didn't bother anyone.

If it really was such an issue to the players, they would not have rested and posted on the forums, just like they do with just about anything that's perceived as an issue.

The gap closer root/snare is nothing else but ZOS doing the same type of math you do with no regard for whether it is actually an issue that bothers players.

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The gap closer root/snare is nothing else but ZOS doing the same type of math you do with no regard for whether it is actually an issue that bothers players.

Now you are giving too little credit to ZOS. Sometimes, even they find and fix issues before they cause an uproar on the forums.

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The gap closer root/snare is nothing else but ZOS doing the same type of math you do with no regard for whether it is actually an issue that bothers players.

Now you are giving too little credit to ZOS. Sometimes, even they find and fix issues before they cause an uproar on the forums.

The only uproar it caused is first people being unable to move when being gap closed and nowadays people barely being able to move when gap closed.

By my knowledge you are the first and only person so far that has spoken out in favor of the gap closer root/snare besides the developers themselves.

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The gap closer root/snare is nothing else but ZOS doing the same type of math you do with no regard for whether it is actually an issue that bothers players.

Now you are giving too little credit to ZOS. Sometimes, even they find and fix issues before they cause an uproar on the forums.

The only uproar it caused is first people being unable to move when being gap closed and nowadays people barely being able to move when gap closed.

By my knowledge you are the first and only person so far that has spoken out in favor of the gap closer root/snare besides the developers themselves.

That is because ZOS implemented the change to gap closers before it could become a problem. If they let it unchanged in the age of 999+ pings, i guarantee you we would have threads like "I wasted an entire bar of stamina on crit rushes and all i got was "target is out of range!!%#$#!"

If ZOS ever manages to get the lag situation under control so much we get it like it was at release, i'll be all for removing gap closer snares.

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The gap closer root/snare is nothing else but ZOS doing the same type of math you do with no regard for whether it is actually an issue that bothers players.

Now you are giving too little credit to ZOS. Sometimes, even they find and fix issues before they cause an uproar on the forums.

The only uproar it caused is first people being unable to move when being gap closed and nowadays people barely being able to move when gap closed.

By my knowledge you are the first and only person so far that has spoken out in favor of the gap closer root/snare besides the developers themselves.

That is because ZOS implemented the change to gap closers before it could become a problem. If they let it unchanged in the age of 999+ pings, i guarantee you we would have threads like "I wasted an entire bar of stamina on crit rushes and all i got was "target is out of range!!%#$#!"

That's your theory of possible crying about gap closers not hitting their target versus the current reality of gap closers snaring the target so much they barely have a chance to get away. The obvious side effect is that escaping groups of players is nigh impossible.

I rather have my Lotus Fan miss the target than being constantly snared into place because I'm being gap closed.