Magicka Sorc DPS still viable!

rokrdt05

Since DB hit, there has been a lot of discussion regarding magicka sorcs as a dps class. With the cast times reduced on shields, many people feel that magicka sorc dps is just not viable. I mean, the only thing they have in their toolkit is overload spam right?

I've seen so many comments in game and the forums alike stating that magicka sorcs cannot pull good dps without overload or that they are far behind the other classes. I just want to say that I don't believe that to be the case. Recently a few friends of mine @liv3mind and @hedna123b14_ESO challenged me to hit 30K on he Bloodspawn without using Overload. I took this challenge. I spent the next evening thinking and testing rotations and found a rotation that could possible work. So I went in that night with @liv3mind and failed. I only managed 29K. Disappointing, yes... but there was light at the end of the tunnel. I did not have my DW passive leveled and was missing the buff from that passive. So I proceed to go in the next day and manage this:



Now, I want to point a couple of things out. The rotation I'm using is by no means solidified in any way and needs further tweaking, the gear I'm using is not BiS (5x TBS, 3x Willpower, 2x Nerien'eth, 2x DW Torugs Swords, 1x Sharpened Inferno MSA)... it's not bad gear, just not BiS, the only buff I had was tank taunt (pierce armor - major fracture) meaning I had no Agressive Warhorn, SPC, or any other raid buffs, and also for those that know me and play with me on a regular basis know that I suffer immense lag. With all this kept in mind... this parse could have easily exceeded 32K+. Now I want to compare this to my magicka NB's DPS with the exact same gear and exact same settings:



2K dps difference! I'm sure I could have pulled higher, but lag is usually a factor in my parses. Still not convinced... let's try a Templar parse:



In case you are all wondering:

My sorc is an Altmer, my NB is an Altmer, and my Templar is a Breton.... go figure right?

Same thing... only a 2k difference. I could do the same with DK but I think you get my point by now. I spent one evening working on a rotation and was able to met a challenge set forth by friends. Sorc dps is by no means behind, sure they could use a buff to their personal toolkit and benefit from a class spammable, but they are still competent, comparable dps to other magicka classes.

Just thought I'd share my view point.

iam117

Awesome job btw, and good work! Stoked you made it, unbuffed and all!

daemonios

That's an innovative build you have there! Let's see: mage's wrath for execute, force pulse and medium attacks for weaving with the odd crystal frags proc, wall of elements and liquid lightning, meteor (what, you don't use Sorc ultis?)... Oh wait! That's what every other end-game sorc is using

I managed to pull 35k on vMoL 2nd boss today on my sorc. I was really happy with it, but that doesn't change the fact that they're behind other well-played builds and are heavily dependent on group buffs while having little to no group utility. We are leachers, in a way.

We don't have a class spammable so we resort to force pulse, which costs much more than most class abilities and restrict us to using staves. Our execute starts at 20% and is a weird thing that has a small cast time *and* a delay for the explosion to proc. Also, it hits for much less than other executes so it can be a dps loss if you don't keep wall of elements and liquid lightning up at the very least.

Can sorcs do all content? Certainly they can. Are they cornered into a single build, with 1 or 2 skills that vary from person to person? They sure are. Do they help the group in any way? No more than any other DD since all we do is go pew-pew - no group heals while dpsing, no group buffs, nothing.

TheMachineKiller

But what if we've done vMA 30 times and haven't received the elusive precise/sharpened Inferno staff...

rokrdt05

daemonios wrote: »

That's an innovative build you have there! Let's see: mage's wrath for execute, force pulse and medium attacks for weaving with the odd crystal frags proc, wall of elements and liquid lightning, meteor (what, you don't use Sorc ultis?)... Oh wait! That's what every other end-game sorc is using

I managed to pull 35k on vMoL 2nd boss today on my sorc. I was really happy with it, but that doesn't change the fact that they're behind other well-played builds and are heavily dependent on group buffs while having little to no group utility. We are leachers, in a way.

We don't have a class spammable so we resort to force pulse, which costs much more than most class abilities and restrict us to using staves. Our execute starts at 20% and is a weird thing that has a small cast time *and* a delay for the explosion to proc. Also, it hits for much less than other executes so it can be a dps loss if you don't keep wall of elements and liquid lightning up at the very least.

Can sorcs do all content? Certainly they can. Are they cornered into a single build, with 1 or 2 skills that vary from person to person? They sure are. Do they help the group in any way? No more than any other DD since all we do is go pew-pew - no group heals while dpsing, no group buffs, nothing.

Oh, by no means the skills used are unique. What makes rotations unique, in general, is the order of which they are applied and executed. The build itself was not meant for my sorc as well, that is my NB's gear.

I know some top tier sorcs who are pulling much highers than 35K on boss one and two of vMoL and that's using a lightning staff not Fire. I don't consider Force Pulse to be a DPS loss, considering that I get a buff from being Altmer, and that 9 times out of 10 Engulfing will be on target making it hit pretty freaking hard. To put this relativlety, since I use Nerien'eth on my NB it's prudent to use FP for two reasons: More chances to proc the 2pc and increased damage over Swallow Soul as long as Engulfing is on target. The same is true for Sorc.

I do agree that it's silly our executes start at 20% and can be a DPS loss, so I tend to keep dots rolling to help offset that... especially since LL hits so hard.

I also do agree, that they may be a little more boxed in than other classes concerning builds, but I think since DB, some unique builds have come to light that have been pretty effective. I still remain by my statement that I dont' believe sorcs suffer behind any other magicka class.

rokrdt05

TheMachineKiller wrote: »

But what if we've done vMA 30 times and haven't received the elusive precise/sharpened Inferno staff...

It took me 2 months before I got my first Precise, and a month later my Sharpened.

I have a friend who has yet to get one and has on average ran this 3 times a week since vMA launch. RnGesus can be a b*tch sometimes.

hedna123b14_ESO

rokrdt05 wrote: »

Since DB hit, there has been a lot of discussion regarding magicka sorcs as a dps class. With the cast times reduced on shields, many people feel that magicka sorc dps is just not viable. I mean, the only thing they have in their toolkit is overload spam right?

I've seen so many comments in game and the forums alike stating that magicka sorcs cannot pull good dps without overload or that they are far behind the other classes. I just want to say that I don't believe that to be the case. Recently a few friends of mine @liv3mind and @hedna123b14_ESO challenged me to hit 30K on he Bloodspawn without using Overload. I took this challenge. I spent the next evening thinking and testing rotations and found a rotation that could possible work. So I went in that night with @liv3mind and failed. I only managed 29K. Disappointing, yes... but there was light at the end of the tunnel. I did not have my DW passive leveled and was missing the buff from that passive. So I proceed to go in the next day and manage this:



Now, I want to point a couple of things out. The rotation I'm using is by no means solidified in any way and needs further tweaking, the gear I'm using is not BiS (5x TBS, 3x Willpower, 2x Nerien'eth, 2x DW Torugs Swords, 1x Sharpened Inferno MSA)... it's not bad gear, just not BiS, the only buff I had was tank taunt (pierce armor - major fracture) meaning I had no Agressive Warhorn, SPC, or any other raid buffs, and also for those that know me and play with me on a regular basis know that I suffer immense lag. With all this kept in mind... this parse could have easily exceeded 32K+. Now I want to compare this to my magicka NB's DPS with the exact same gear and exact same settings:



2K dps difference! I'm sure I could have pulled higher, but lag is usually a factor in my parses. Still not convinced... let's try a Templar parse:



In case you are all wondering:

My sorc is an Altmer, my NB is an Altmer, and my Templar is a Breton.... go figure right?

Same thing... only a 2k difference. I could do the same with DK but I think you get my point by now. I spent one evening working on a rotation and was able to met a challenge set forth by friends. Sorc dps is by no means behind, sure they could use a buff to their personal toolkit and benefit from a class spammable, but they are still competent, comparable dps to other magicka classes.

Just thought I'd share my view point.

Just goes to show that in the right hands anything is possible, and other is all about learning a class. Great job!

hedna123b14_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

That's an innovative build you have there! Let's see: mage's wrath for execute, force pulse and medium attacks for weaving with the odd crystal frags proc, wall of elements and liquid lightning, meteor (what, you don't use Sorc ultis?)... Oh wait! That's what every other end-game sorc is using

I managed to pull 35k on vMoL 2nd boss today on my sorc. I was really happy with it, but that doesn't change the fact that they're behind other well-played builds and are heavily dependent on group buffs while having little to no group utility. We are leachers, in a way.

We don't have a class spammable so we resort to force pulse, which costs much more than most class abilities and restrict us to using staves. Our execute starts at 20% and is a weird thing that has a small cast time *and* a delay for the explosion to proc. Also, it hits for much less than other executes so it can be a dps loss if you don't keep wall of elements and liquid lightning up at the very least.

Can sorcs do all content? Certainly they can. Are they cornered into a single build, with 1 or 2 skills that vary from person to person? They sure are. Do they help the group in any way? No more than any other DD since all we do is go pew-pew - no group heals while dpsing, no group buffs, nothing.

Ok a few things here:
1. OP never claimed that he had an innovative build. He simply claimed that it's definite luu you doable to pull competitive DPS on a sorc. He proved his point.
2. Sorc build is the same? Have you played a DK? You literally can't change anything of its front bar. Sorcs on the other hand have many viable dps options. One of such options is in my signature. Pulls 40k in vMoL.
3. Why do you need a spammable? Nightblades have spammable, but i don't use mine, because Force Puse hits harder afterms raid buffs
4. The only thing I agree with is the execute. That definitely needs a revamp, but in terms of everything else, the situation is not as dark as you make it out to be.

Minute_Waltz

Which class did you find to be easiest in terms of perfecting rotations in order to achieve 30K+?

rokrdt05

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Which class did you find to be easiest in terms of perfecting rotations in order to achieve 30K+?

The Templars rotation by far for me personally was the easiest.

Minalan

I don't think anyone said sorc isn't viable for PVE. Just boring and unforgiving of mistakes (accidentally hard cast frags, miss an easy animation cancel, etc)

Same build, same skills. Overload, elemental blockade, liquid lightning, frags, pulse, etc.. Same gear. Destro staff, etc.

rokrdt05

Minalan wrote: »

I don't think anyone said sorc isn't viable for PVE. Just boring and unforgiving of mistakes (accidentally hard cast frags, miss an easy animation cancel, etc)

Same build, same skills. Overload, elemental blockade, liquid lightning, frags, pulse, etc.. Same gear. Destro staff, etc.

You are reading too much into this. I never stated sorc was not viable for PvE, I said that many of the complaints about the class are about how they are far behind the curve compared to the other magicka classes. I disagree with your assessment, as any class can suffer mistakes that are equally detrimental to the parse (animation canceling isn't as prevalent with the way they changed combat).

Also not sure you read what I wrote...this was done W/O Overload. I'm not going to touch the rest of your statement... too over generalized and missing the point.

Mimeq

I've already said this but i think destro staff should be more elemental based, i mean, the skills should be a single elemental shot/effect instead of 3 elements:

Force Shock/Crushing Shock/Force pulse (one single elemental beam that match the staff's element)

Weakness to Elements/Elemental Susceptibility/Elemental Drain -> animation effect should be a single element as well


That would make destro staff more unique based on the element we use, and builds would be more diverse, also that would make the staff choice more important and diverse between players.

Also, Storm Calling passives (Energized and Implosion) should be also applied to ice damage, so we can use ice staff, that is not used at all today

Maybe Energized could increase both physical and spell damage, instead of physical and shock damage.

And Implosion could have a chance to disintegrate by doing physical or spell damage, but it should scale 2/4% instead of 3/6% that is today.

That would free us from bindings!

Grao

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

hedna123b14_ESO

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

Grao

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

hedna123b14_ESO

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

ill disagree

Grao

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

ill disagree

With such strong arguments? Alright.

Dymence

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

daemonios

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

What utility? Now I'm curious.

hedna123b14_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

What utility? Now I'm curious.

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

ill disagree

With such strong arguments? Alright.

Build in my sig pulls 40k in maw...

daemonios

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

What utility? Now I'm curious.

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

ill disagree

With such strong arguments? Alright.

Build in my sig pulls 40k in maw...

I asked about utility.

Grao

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Dymence

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

hedna123b14_ESO

daemonios wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

What utility? Now I'm curious.

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Abandon this class... It is all I can say. Have you seen all the awesome changes Sorcerers are getting next update???

Your pet is now on your left side!!!
Your pet now stays further away from you so it doesn't give away that you are stealing crap!!!
And even better! Your Bound Armor, every sorcerers favorite toggle, has new visual effects... Again!!!

Can't you feel @Wrobel 's love???

While sorcs could be better, they have great damage and great utility...

They are a bore to play thanks to the obligatory toggles in all three bars, provide near to no raid utility having only one raid buff to maintain by occasionally casting a proc of Crystal Fragments, are the least flexible magika class on weapon choices, as they don't have a spammable ability, have the greatest number of completely useless abilities among all classes and the least role flexibility, with the weakest tanks, heals that depend on a pet that has 7k health and DPS that in the most optimal scenario reaches up to 40k, which pales in comparison to the optimal DPS of every other class.

But hey, clearly ZOS agrees with you that it is all fine and dandy, afterall, this are the changes we get next expansion:

Daedric Summoning

Bound Armor: This ability and its morphs now display new, permanent visual effects when they are toggled on. The new visuals are significantly less obtrusive than before and no longer hide all the other gear your character is wearing.
Summon Unstable Familiar: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your left side.
Summon Winged Twilight: The pet summoned from this ability and its morphs will no longer follow you quite as close when you are out of combat. This will help prevent it from interfering with non-combat activities such as looting and pickpocketing. These pets now position themselves at your right side.

ill disagree

With such strong arguments? Alright.

Build in my sig pulls 40k in maw...

I asked about utility.

Spell crit and Minor vulnerability on all targets

Grao

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

Just because sorcerers best DPS is Magicka DPS and the other classes best DPS is Stamina DPS, it doesn't mean you can exclude Stamina DPS from your analyzes of the class DPS just because it screws your entire argument. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter if it is stamina based or magika based, what matters is that sorcerer best potential DPS is considerably lower than other classes potential best DPS.

And while you argue that Sorcerer's are 'fine', Dragonknights are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are undoubtedly the best healers and Nightblades are the best at PvP. What are sorcerers the best at again?

Dymence

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

Just because sorcerers best DPS is Magicka DPS and the other classes best DPS is Stamina DPS, it doesn't mean you can exclude Stamina DPS from your analyzes of the class DPS just because it screws your entire argument. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter if it is stamina based or magika based, what matters is that sorcerer best potential DPS is considerably lower than other classes potential best DPS.

And while you argue that Sorcerer's are 'fine', Dragonknights are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are undoubtedly the best healers and Nightblades are the best at PvP. What are sorcerers the best at again?

You're only right about this in a very controlled dps environment. The reality however, is that stamina DPS as a whole underperforms when compared to magicka on the majority of the fights in vMoL, due to the nature of these fights being in favor of ranged.

I also don't feel there is a need for sorcerers to be the best at anything. I'm quite fine with being just as good as others instead of being the best at something. My views are biased to DPS though as I don't much care about tanking and healing on a sorcerer.

Grao

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

Just because sorcerers best DPS is Magicka DPS and the other classes best DPS is Stamina DPS, it doesn't mean you can exclude Stamina DPS from your analyzes of the class DPS just because it screws your entire argument. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter if it is stamina based or magika based, what matters is that sorcerer best potential DPS is considerably lower than other classes potential best DPS.

And while you argue that Sorcerer's are 'fine', Dragonknights are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are undoubtedly the best healers and Nightblades are the best at PvP. What are sorcerers the best at again?

You're only right about this in a very controlled dps environment. The reality however, is that stamina DPS as a whole underperforms when compared to magicka on the majority of the fights in vMoL, due to the nature of these fights being in favor of ranged.

I also don't feel there is a need for sorcerers to be the best at anything. I'm quite fine with being just as good as others instead of being the best at something. My views are biased to DPS though as I don't much care about tanking and healing on a sorcerer.

Ah, alright, so sorcerers are fine not having a specialty, a role in which they can outperform other classes, while every other class has such specialty. Perfect balance, but I guess @Wrobel thinking just like you and has as much care for the class as you.

Dymence

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

Just because sorcerers best DPS is Magicka DPS and the other classes best DPS is Stamina DPS, it doesn't mean you can exclude Stamina DPS from your analyzes of the class DPS just because it screws your entire argument. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter if it is stamina based or magika based, what matters is that sorcerer best potential DPS is considerably lower than other classes potential best DPS.

And while you argue that Sorcerer's are 'fine', Dragonknights are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are undoubtedly the best healers and Nightblades are the best at PvP. What are sorcerers the best at again?

You're only right about this in a very controlled dps environment. The reality however, is that stamina DPS as a whole underperforms when compared to magicka on the majority of the fights in vMoL, due to the nature of these fights being in favor of ranged.

I also don't feel there is a need for sorcerers to be the best at anything. I'm quite fine with being just as good as others instead of being the best at something. My views are biased to DPS though as I don't much care about tanking and healing on a sorcerer.

Ah, alright, so sorcerers are fine not having a specialty, a role in which they can outperform other classes, while every other class has such specialty. Perfect balance, but I guess @Wrobel thinking just like you and has as much care for the class as you.

Well, Nightblades don't have anything that they're the best at either. And no, I'm not counting your supposed 'being the best at PvP'. Entirely subjective and I'm suspecting many will laugh at you for that comment.

Grao

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I believe all classes played on magicka are currently at an equal level of dps.

Here are my personal competitive sorc parses:

Sorcerers are fine in terms of dps. People just don't want to believe it.

Sorcerer best DPS is lacking when compared to the best DPS of other classes. You can't simply break Magika and Stamina DPS to claim sorcerer DPS is fine, not when our Stamina DPS is still not up to par with what other classes can dish out.

Meanwhile we still provide the least raid utility buffs, had our survivability shot by the release of DB, are forced into toggles other classes and now races get as passives, have a single choice of weapon for magika DPS and the least role flexibility, for while sorcerer magika DPS is still viable, sorcerer tanking took a heavy hit with DB and sorcerer healing is still reliant on a pet with 7 k health that dies after a maximum of three ticks from most bosses AoEs.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that sorcerer DPS is lacking compared to the best DPS of other classes? From my competitive raiding experience, my sorcerer DPS is on the same line as the magicka DPS from the top tier players that play the other classes. As I said, magicka DPS right now is quite balanced. The only part I'd agree on with you is sorcerer stamina DPS probably still being a little bit behind.

Furthermore, the bonus crit we provide in groups is already quite significant. I'm not sure if we need more group utility buffs at all. Our survivability also didn't take a hit at all in my opinion. Shield has less uptime sure, and surge heals a lot less now. But I've personally found it easier to stay at full health with the new surge in vMSA simply because it's constantly proccing from DoTs.

I'll agree with you that sorcerer tanking needs work because it is absolute garbage right now compared to the tanking options other classes posess, but I find that sorcerers are quite fine healers with the healing pet. I know it's not much, but I've healed several no death vICP runs recently by ONLY using the pet for heals. It is a really strong flash heal, stronger than breath of life I feel.

Just because sorcerers best DPS is Magicka DPS and the other classes best DPS is Stamina DPS, it doesn't mean you can exclude Stamina DPS from your analyzes of the class DPS just because it screws your entire argument. DPS is DPS, it doesn't matter if it is stamina based or magika based, what matters is that sorcerer best potential DPS is considerably lower than other classes potential best DPS.

And while you argue that Sorcerer's are 'fine', Dragonknights are the best tanks and DPS in the game, Templars are undoubtedly the best healers and Nightblades are the best at PvP. What are sorcerers the best at again?

You're only right about this in a very controlled dps environment. The reality however, is that stamina DPS as a whole underperforms when compared to magicka on the majority of the fights in vMoL, due to the nature of these fights being in favor of ranged.

I also don't feel there is a need for sorcerers to be the best at anything. I'm quite fine with being just as good as others instead of being the best at something. My views are biased to DPS though as I don't much care about tanking and healing on a sorcerer.

Ah, alright, so sorcerers are fine not having a specialty, a role in which they can outperform other classes, while every other class has such specialty. Perfect balance, but I guess @Wrobel thinking just like you and has as much care for the class as you.

Well, Nightblades don't have anything that they're the best at either. And no, I'm not counting your supposed 'being the best at PvP'. Entirely subjective and I'm suspecting many will laugh at you for that comment.

Well, I am laughing at your comment. I am sorry, but Nightblades are currently the strongest class for PvP, there is no arguing against that. Of course the player's skill is relevant, but mathematically, the class is without a doubt the better equipped class for PvP.

hedna123b14_ESO

@Dymence you wont convince him, he is set on hating sorcs even though they are a great addition to a raid if played well.