Official Feedback Thread for Trials & Dragonstar Arena Scaling

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

This is the official feedback thread for Trials & Dragonstar Arena scaling. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What do you think of the scaling for Normal mode versus Veteran mode?

Foxic

It would be nice if the storm atro were a little more difficult. We started off with two, then 3 just messing around until we had 5 people with wonky builds and no mundus stones. So just for giggles we decided to see if we could kill the storm atro and it went surprisingly well.

The damage that the boss does is way too small, it had trouble killing me in light armor. The only thing that was even remotely dangerous in this encounter was the last tick of the lightning storm.

With no new added mechanics it would be nice to see the damage on the boss himself greatly increased. Im convinced with 12 people this boss at least will be back to being faceroll.

Havent been able to progress farther yet as we dont have 12 people on

RoyJade

Yeah, I think the atro should do his lightning storm at X% of his life, and have a great damage reduction while performing it. In additional to more damage added, we should follow the strat instead of just burst him.

Foxic

RoyJade wrote: »

Yeah, I think the atro should do his lightning storm at X% of his life, and have a great damage reduction while performing it. In additional to more damage added, we should follow the strat instead of just burst him.

Well we did have to go to the golden circles, but the boss himself hits like a noodle

BackFreckle

can anyone confirm that master weapons are 160cp?

Shadesofkin

BackFreckle wrote: »

can anyone confirm that master weapons are 160cp?

Not yet, but soon.

Gilliamtherogue

Did a run with some guild mates a few hours ago, full run is here; https://www.twitch.tv/asneakybanana/v/74972742 (Explicit language warning)

Overall the scaling is solid. A few parts are a bit ridiculous with desynced animations one shotting, but overall way more fun than live. Portal damage was a total joy kill to difficulty so I'm glad to see it gone.

Rewards are alright, awesome to finally see jewelry for ALL the sets in there, although all of the sets (with the exception of Archer's Mind, which I need to test) are very lack luster. None of these sets offer a unique advantage or fit in end game builds.

Master weapons are absolutely disappointing. The amount of time spent into vDSA now with scaled should be rewarding, but instead we get c160 Master weapons with less than 1% enchant gains compared to c140, which are all drastically out performed by Maelstrom weapons. Doing the math on these they turn out to be roughly 10% of the DPS gain of some of the popular Maelstrom weapons, with the only exception of the Master's Sword for tanks (Since maelstrom tank weps were an absolute joke). Please look into buffing Master Weapons to be more on par with Maelstrom Weapons, as well as the updated sets.

Gilliamtherogue

BackFreckle wrote: »

can anyone confirm that master weapons are 160cp?

(for comparison;)

Liofa

They should make vDSA hard as **** and buff these weapons . This is just sad .

Mureel

Is VDSA being scaled up then? Or just the drops??

*Gone Blind I guess*

dro_rasec

Hello, yesterday me and my friends complete Vdsa, but there are two very annoying bugs we encountered

1: Sometimes when the group wipes, the mobs dont disapear unless everyone respawn on wayshrine.
2: On the boss of the eighth arena, the animation of the meteor is desynchronized with the damage.

The loot was cool I get a sharpend master sword.
Also i'm glad you are no longer able to hit enemies when they are spawning.

Savos_Saren

Can we please add a Master's Shield?!?! Please? Something that's not lame like the Maelstrom Shield?

Kathrein

Bug that i found yesterday:
We were at daedra stage 7 last boss, it was time for dinner so we all left for a while, coming back we enter the portal and we find one big dragon inside (the one from the sacrifice), we killed him but then the arena was bugged for us.
It wouldn't start again, no voice over, no countdown, nothing no matter what (we tried getting out and back in, we all died inside then pressed wayshrine but nothing worked)

TheHsN

Master weapons are weak specially Greatsword, and inferno staff they all need buff .i dont spend time to farm there for these items..

Insomnia rex

dro_rasec wrote: »

1: Sometimes when the group wipes, the mobs dont disapear unless everyone respawn on wayshrine.

I am not one the PTS, but this bug is also on live atm. (source: did vDSA yesterday)

jknight201

I've only tried vHRC on the PTS but this comment also applies to vSO and vMOL:

There is too large of a skill jump between normal and veteran modes of the rebalanced trials. The normal modes are too easy and most of the mechanics have been disabled, making it impossible for players to get a chance to see and practice with the mechanics without having them wipe the group (see nSO/vSO difference on Manti).

The mechanics should be present in the normal version of the trial, but weaker so it's still about the same difficulty to complete. The normal difficulty seems about right for the "average" player crowd, but the veteran difficulty is much, much too difficult even for the good players. Look at vMOL as an example of a trial that is so hard, only a couple dozen people *in total* have completed it on the NA server. Veteran should be difficult but possible to finish for good groups of players and then veteran hard mode can be for the 0.001% who are able to complete it.

There's a thread about this in General Discussion as well.

Shadesofkin

vAA was rough, so rough that we had to scrap our run because we didn't have enough of our staple trial group involved, but I think that's a good thing.

Now that being said, Normal vs Vet is a tad sad, the mechanics are stripped out instead of simply reduced. I wish that wasn't the case.

baratron

jknight201 wrote: »

I've only tried vHRC on the PTS but this comment also applies to vSO and vMOL:

There is too large of a skill jump between normal and veteran modes of the rebalanced trials. The normal modes are too easy and most of the mechanics have been disabled, making it impossible for players to get a chance to see and practice with the mechanics without having them wipe the group (see nSO/vSO difference on Manti).

The mechanics should be present in the normal version of the trial, but weaker so it's still about the same difficulty to complete.

This same problem is present in Normal Ruins of Mazzatun. We completed this dungeon without even working out why there were wamasu in the room with Xal-Nur the Slaver, or what the purpose of the statues were in the room with the Tree-Minder. These mechanics are important in the Veteran version, but you don't need to even be aware of them in Normal. The only mechanic which required your knowledge was the one where you have to rescue Argonian Elders.

This was true to a lesser extent in Normal Cradle of Shadows. The Spider Caves use the same mechanic in Normal and Veteran, but we killed the bosses so quickly that we didn't grasp the nuances of any mechanics until Veteran mode. I also remember Dranos Velador being stupidly easy. We got the idea that he split into shades which had to be returned to his body before he could be damaged. Velidreth at the end drops you into the catacombs and you have to find your way out, but all four of you drop in the same area. Also she doesn't summon the spiky balls, and I don't think she uses the Shadow Sense/Shadow Spine combination, although I don't seem to have a stream of Normal Cradle of Shadows.

Normal Aetherian Archive and Normal Hel Ra Citadel seem to be only slightly harder than they are on Live. Neither was particularly challenging at CP 120 and neither are particularly challenging at CP 160. Whereas Normal Sanctum Ophidia is challenging for a group who aren't experts in running Trials, and Normal Maw of Lorkhaj is very difficult with its complex mechanics.

KochDerDamonen

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

(for comparison;)

Just looking at that makes me sad inside, a hot 16 damage on cast and 5 weapon damage for going from v14(cp140) to cp160? What? I almost feel like these numbers aren't intended and are just what happened when someone turned the level of the item up or something. I'm not one to speak for how effective these will be versus say Maelstrom weapons, but one would venture to guess the answer should be competitive... right? The numbers certainly don't give me this impression.

ZOS_Finn

dro_rasec wrote: »

Hello, yesterday me and my friends complete Vdsa, but there are two very annoying bugs we encountered

1: Sometimes when the group wipes, the mobs dont disapear unless everyone respawn on wayshrine.
2: On the boss of the eighth arena, the animation of the meteor is desynchronized with the damage.

The loot was cool I get a sharpend master sword.
Also i'm glad you are no longer able to hit enemies when they are spawning.

These two issues should be fixed in a future PTS patch. We were able to track them down.

Gilliamtherogue

*edit* I should quickly state that I have already experienced all of these trials on PTS and Live, and have been actively raiding since the first trials released over two years ago. I have held numerous world and/or server side titles, so this should have somewhat relevance of voicing the opinion of many other end tier raiders as well.

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons. Since the introduction of Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj, the difficulty difference between Normal and Veteran modes has increased greatly. This alone isn't an issue, many players in end game have been asking for more of a challenge, and we appreciate you listening. The issue is though, that you haven't implemented the difficulty we asked for in the correct ways.

Your versions of "difficulty" greatly vary from ours. Inside all of the live Veteran Trials (not dungeons!) and the newly scaled vAA and vHRC on the PTS it seems that everything is merely a multiplied factor of the normal mode counter part, with a few new mechanic changes/additions here and there. From comparing each dungeon, it literally feels as if you make the Normal version, run through it with your QA team, and then say, "Okay, looks good, fix a few bugs and then for Veteran mode just multiply everything by 300% and adds some more one shot mechanics, a few more trash packs, and call it a day!" This is not a sense of difficulty that resonates well with pretty much any community. Inflation does not equal difficulty, rather engaging and thought provoking encounters do. While bosses have seen a drastic improvement in these terms, the main issues lie outside of boss encounters. Here are a few major issues with the new direction you have chosen;

1. Most non meta/min-maxed players will find themselves struggling to clear trash mobs that have no real progression system or reward system to them. They enter a trial after clearing the normal counter part and begin dying on the first wave of adds because of the staggering damage dealt and health difference of these mobs. This immediately puts a bad taste in newer players mouths, and cuts off many people from ever completing or progressing in these trials. Most of these trash mobs have more health than major bosses in Veteran dungeons (including vICP and vWGT), which mas multiple issues in and of itself.

2. From a resource stand point these new trials are not robust enough to sustain content or longevity wise. The amount of players who have cleared vSO and vMoL are extremely little, I won't spout out %'s since I have no back up, but I would love for you to post some numbers to show for both party's sake. Why spend so much time and effort making content that few players can complete? On top of that, even end game guilds have drastically cut back on raiding since these new trials are so tedious and un-enjoyable.

3. The sense of progression is halted by inflated health and damage on unimportant combat encounters in trials. Currently the fastest clear of vMoL in the world is just under 33 minutes, with over HALF of that time spent, and deaths coming from killing trash mobs. Prior to this in older AA, HRC, and SO trash acted as a "cool down" phase which allowed groups to formulate strategies that best suited efficiency and clear time in unique and engaging ways, while bosses remained the major road blocks to completion. Meanwhile trash has no room for strategy change due to the extremely high damage it deals, as well as the inflated health levels they have. We understand that trash shouldn't just be mind numbingly easy, but it shouldn't be so absolutely absurd that it drains your will to complete because you know you're about to spend the next 20 minutes killing mobs that offer no sense of reward.

4. The reward system for trials is not sustainable outside of the first month after release. Trials and end game content should have some measure of replay-ability and reward mechanics, and in their current state they do, for about a month. Gold jewelry on hardmode versions and newly scaled BoE sets are great for the first release, everyone wants to test and get their hands on stuff, but over time the number of these items becomes severely inflated. We've already seen a price cut in over 200% on the NA server's markets on gold jewelry from vSO due to the availability of these items. A 5 day cooldown on BOE gold jewelry should be instated, while leaving the BoP items off of a cooldown.

5. Further explaining the issue with reward systems in trials, is once you've gotten your gear and the items from inside are less desirable, the only reason to participate in trials is for competitive leaderboards. Leaderboards were a great way to add a sense of replay ability to content, without forcing it onto players, as it is completely optional. However, due to the overall "artificial" feeling these trials now give on Veteran difficulty, the desire to push for times and improvement has all but died in the community. The raid community in ESO has dwindled to a point where it's almost extinct, less than 10 guilds world wide have cleared vMoL to start with, and even fewer actively complete these trials. This is because of how excruciatingly painful it is to raid now. I once looked forward to raiding, now I'm filled with a sense of dread as I know I'm about to spend the next 4 hours of my life on runs that are ruined by artificial difficulty and pointless inflation without being properly reimbursed for the investment of time.

*edit* 6. The recent balance changes in these trials seem to be centered around the concept of Veteran Maelstrom Arena builds, or small man PvE content that isn't as demanding as trials. Many encounters assume everyone has a "do it yourself" build that spreads itself over a variety of capabilities (tankiness, self healing, damage, etc) rather than focusing on one role. For example, the damage dealt in vMoL and vSO trash encounters are so high and spread out that it forces many DPS, or damage dealing roles, to run self healing or self defensive abilities. This is an extremely big issue in group play, as group play is made up of powerful individuals who all have unique advantages and disadvantages, which bases what role or task they will have. Assuming a homogenized build on everyone kills player diversity as well as stagnates interesting and innovative game play. Forcing each build to do the job of another totally removes the purpose of large groups of players forming together to accomplish goals. I understand ESO prides itself in being unique and allowing players to pretty much do anything, and there should always be the option for players to do that, but building the entire balance of group content around that idea is extremely toxic and actually does the exact opposite of making players feel like they have options.

There are plenty other issues I could go on and on about but I've found these to be the major issues so far, and I've tried to focus them on something the community can agree with as a whole, rather than having just the interests of the niche group of players who actively still raid. We appreciate the scaled content, as we've been asking for it for ages, but what we've seen so far is not at all what we had in mind. If you're looking for more feedback on what we DO want, I would be more than happy to reach out to other players and gather their thoughts and compose them for you here or elsewhere.

Dagoth_Rac

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

[...much snippage...]

Thank you, Gilliam. This was very well written and explained. My guild has not cleared vSO yet, but we are getting close. We got Ozara to 24% on Saturday night. We are in that 2nd tier of PvE guilds, and I am guessing (but I have no numbers) that there are more of those guilds than Tier 1 guilds that are completing vSO and vMOL. And we often have trouble getting a full group of 12 and it feels like the trash pulls are a big part of the dislike. In particular, it is trash pull after trash pull after trash pull between Stonebreaker and Ozara. It is not really hard, per se, just tedious and seemingly endless. And there are lots of snares and other CC, which slows down the pace of combat and makes it worse. It is like wading through molasses.

We love getting to Ozara and discussing mechanics and strategies. We have avoided looking at videos or guides in an effort to figure it out on our own. Seeing ourselves make progression over the past 6 weeks is something we all enjoy. But there is so much not-fun stuff to grind through to get to the fun stuff that it is frustrating. We will not have a single full group wipe before Ozara and yet it is still likely to be an hour before we even get to her. It can be discouraging. We are not hardcore players who will be in there until dawn. We might get 3 hours on Saturday night when we have enough interested players to raid. Losing so much time to trash stinks.

phreatophile

Bummer. I was looking forward to Master Weapons, nice to know ahead of time that they are not going to be worth the effort.

Shadesofkin

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

A Lot of Stuff Said.

Wow, I don't agree with any of this...at all. I relish the difficulty of Maw, I consider Sanctum a breeze, and I'm still working to get myself on that leaderboard for Maw. I mean I get where you're coming from, but I just cannot agree.

Gilliamtherogue

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

A Lot of Stuff Said.

Wow, I don't agree with any of this...at all. I relish the difficulty of Maw, I consider Sanctum a breeze, and I'm still working to get myself on that leaderboard for Maw. I mean I get where you're coming from, but I just cannot agree.

Do not mistake what I said. I said that the difficulty of non boss related encounters is the issue. The amount of time and effort you need to pour into these places even after putting it on "farm" is exhausting. Come back after you've spent over 100 hours into each of these trials and let me know if you still agree.

How can you find artificial levels of damage where you can instantly be one shot by RNG based mechanics and uncontrollable events that destroy strategy building engaging, challenging, or enjoyable?

Personofsecrets

I feel like the master weapons sort of stink now. The bosses felt pretty good.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO

Master weapons needs to be looked and reworked. The enchantments are very weak for some of them.

Ep1kMalware

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

A Lot of Stuff Said.

Wow, I don't agree with any of this...at all. I relish the difficulty of Maw, I consider Sanctum a breeze, and I'm still working to get myself on that leaderboard for Maw. I mean I get where you're coming from, but I just cannot agree.

I don't agree with it either, normal mode is all about allowing access of gear to casual players without walling them off. vet mode mainly exists so that teams of good players can achieve a sense of accomplishment by competing with eachother for scores.

with that said, why does the difficulty cap matter? The cold hard facts are generally most players completely suck at even simple mechanics, if they implemented mechanics (even simple ones, we'd have an army of people iin here full of rage demanding refunds for free content updates or some crap. I like the way it's setup, because the only people who don't win are narrow minded folks who don't want to win, (and will complain regardless of what zenimax does).

code65536

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

A Lot of Stuff Said.

Wow, I don't agree with any of this...at all. I relish the difficulty of Maw, I consider Sanctum a breeze, and I'm still working to get myself on that leaderboard for Maw. I mean I get where you're coming from, but I just cannot agree.

I don't agree with it either, normal mode is all about allowing access of gear to casual players without walling them off. vet mode mainly exists so that teams of good players can achieve a sense of accomplishment by competing with eachother for scores.

with that said, why does the difficulty cap matter? The cold hard facts are generally most players completely suck at even simple mechanics, if they implemented mechanics (even simple ones, we'd have an army of people iin here full of rage demanding refunds for free content updates or some crap. I like the way it's setup, because the only people who don't win are narrow minded folks who don't want to win, (and will complain regardless of what zenimax does).

You should re-read the posts.

He's not saying that it's too difficult.

He's saying that it's the wrong kind of difficult. Instead of a challenge, it's tedium. Instead of mechanics that reward skillful play, it's mechanics that are dumb and reward either dumb luck or brute force.

Shadesofkin

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The new direction you (Zenimax) have taken with Veteran Trials is extremely troublesome for many reasons.

A Lot of Stuff Said.

Wow, I don't agree with any of this...at all. I relish the difficulty of Maw, I consider Sanctum a breeze, and I'm still working to get myself on that leaderboard for Maw. I mean I get where you're coming from, but I just cannot agree.

Do not mistake what I said. I said that the difficulty of non boss related encounters is the issue. The amount of time and effort you need to pour into these places even after putting it on "farm" is exhausting. Come back after you've spent over 100 hours into each of these trials and let me know if you still agree.

How can you find artificial levels of damage where you can instantly be one shot by RNG based mechanics and uncontrollable events that destroy strategy building engaging, challenging, or enjoyable?

I went back and re-read it. I guess at first read it comes off as saying "the entire thing" but I see what you're saying now. I still don't entirely agree but I at least see your point more clearly.

Lord_Eomer

Can anybody confirms, if master weapon are tradeable?