On sieges and how broken they are

Leandor

Siege is in a very good place in BWB right now. A balista placed on ground reminds me of the ground oils, it's a helluva lot of fun.

Siege is useless against players in vet campaigns, still. Tone down the damage component if necessary, but for heaven's sake, make the effects non purgeable already. Scattershot hit? No cloak for 10 seconds. Meatbag hit? No healing for 10 seconds. Lightning hit or oil catapult hit? No running for 10 seconds (except for retreating maneuvre, which means you can't heal, or shuffle).

Make it happen.

MLRPZ

AlexHo1982 wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

I'll explain it once more then :

Take a 8 man group facing a 30 ppl group in open field. Do you really think the 8 ppl can spare 1 or 2 guys to siege the other group ?
nope
Do you think the 30 ppl group can spare even 10 guys to siege the 8 man group ?
Yes

I get it and I think the 8 man group did pick the wrong fight in this case. What you guys are asking for is not balance for an AvAvA based PvP game.

Nope, we usually fist those 30 ppl group
If they don't point 15 sieges at us

pod88kk

It's a bit of a pain when you get killed by a siege weapon but then again it's like oh well I should've gotten out of the red circles. Plus sometimes it's funny to watch a zerg get wiped by coordinated siege

timidobserver

Soris wrote: »

To be fair you shouldn't be allowed to put a *** trebushet into your backpack.

Magic.

Bramir

MLRPZ wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

Slot purge.

thank you captain obvious, you might want to read that thread then : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272468/bug-purge-always-hitting-same-six/p1


and also L2read the OP

Why are you calling for a nerf to siege when the problem is obviously a bug with purge? Regardless...slot purge. Bugs get fixed and purging six people in your squad is better than purging noone.

dennissomb16_ESO

Have to say I think the opposite with most of OP post. I really like the siege design in this game. Have I died to siege, sure but not a ton. The giant red circle gives plenty of notice to move. If I am outside on siege and I stay on siege between every shot then I deserve to die. Shoot, hit escape in case I need to move, get back on, rinse and repeat.

2 things I would change with siege. First and most important, if I drop siege and move off to avoid damage and someone jumps on my siege I should be able to boot that person and take back control. Second is i would not let emperor buff effect siege. 45000 damage from an emp on siege is silly

covenant_merchant

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

Bramir

kasa-obake wrote: »

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

If you can't move and you can't purge, you have other problems that have nothing to do with siege weapons. Maybe you should start a thread about those...

Also, have you tried healing?

Hibbou

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

Zheg

Bramir wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

If you can't move and you can't purge, you have other problems that have nothing to do with siege weapons. Maybe you should start a thread about those...

Also, have you tried healing?

People have complained about the permaroot and snare meta since it was introduced in TG with the nerf that made rapid maneuvers useless. There is a reason so many spam bombard, its the reality we play in. Pretending like mobility in this game is what it used to be shows you're not playing very much in pvp nowadays, or are deliberately exaggerating. Even if you play a stam build, you have to be intelligent enough to realize not everyone plays one.

Run in group of 8 and 2 people will never be purged. It's been bugged for almost 6 months. You don't sound smart or elite by saying these things, you sound uninformed. Also, for like the 50th time, many siege animations don't animate and/or have no red ring to move out of.

Celas_Dranacea

You will generally die in outnumbered situations if your fighting equally skilled players, and that's how it should be. This is a war, where numbers matter.

The game is not broken because your group of 6 does not have as many heals, proxy dets, ultimates, or even siege for that matter.

If you want to run a small group then here are some suggestions for how to find a reasonable fight:

- find other groups from your alliance and support them. I don't understand why some small groups think it's below them to work together.
- Flip resources and try to draw attention. If you get too much heat and a larger group comes at you, either try to kill them with well timed ulti dump + siege or sneak away to find a more balanced fight.
- Position yourselves to cut off reinforcements when your alliance is sieging a keep

If you insist on fighting in outnumbered situations, don't complain about mechanics that are working well.

Bramir

Zheg wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

If you can't move and you can't purge, you have other problems that have nothing to do with siege weapons. Maybe you should start a thread about those...

Also, have you tried healing?

People have complained about the permaroot and snare meta since it was introduced in TG with the nerf that made rapid maneuvers useless. There is a reason so many spam bombard, its the reality we play in. Pretending like mobility in this game is what it used to be shows you're not playing very much in pvp nowadays, or are deliberately exaggerating. Even if you play a stam build, you have to be intelligent enough to realize not everyone plays one.

Run in group of 8 and 2 people will never be purged. It's been bugged for almost 6 months. You don't sound smart or elite by saying these things, you sound uninformed. Also, for like the 50th time, many siege animations don't animate and/or have no red ring to move out of.

Then call for changes to the permaroot, or fixes to the animations, and stop wasting time trying to nerf siege weapons because they give noobs a chance to kill you when they get lucky.

And if purge isn't working well enough for you, tell your healers to get their thumbs out of their asses...siege damage can be healed through. I do it all the time, and my sorcerer is hardly optimized for healing.

Jaronking

@Zheg I would like to ask what are your thoughts on making Siege skill its damage similar to proxy set keep the current damage as is but increase it by the more people you hit?How would that affect group play ?

covenant_merchant

Hibbou wrote: »

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

That comment just once again proved your overall uselessness. Please, gtfo.

@Celas_Dranacea getting resources is all well and good, darling. Except you get outnumbered everywhere, seen as entire trains come to flip said resources back. Most of my deaths due to siege have happened at these resources, where there's nowhere to go, and while 20 enemies rush into the tower or barn or mill or whichever, three or four remain on the flag and place cold fire. Also, in case you missed my posts talking about hit-and-run tactics, I am indeed aware of how smallscaling and ulti dumping works.

@Bramir healing? xD stam sorc here. Even with 37 points in quick recovery, I cannot outheal coldharbour siege dots. And again, once your healer (if you have one) is cc'ed and cannot break free, not because of his incompetence but due to the lag and insane delays, you are done for.

If you cannot understand what I'm saying, just say so instead of pretending you read and voicing your dumb and misinformed opinion.

Celas_Dranacea

kasa-obake wrote: »

Hibbou wrote: »

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

That comment just once again proved your overall uselessness. Please, gtfo.

@Celas_Dranacea getting resources is all well and good, darling. Except you get outnumbered everywhere, seen as entire trains come to flip said resources back. Most of my deaths due to siege have happened at these resources, where there's nowhere to go, and while 20 enemies rush into the tower or barn or mill or whichever, three or four remain on the flag and place cold fire. Also, in case you missed my posts talking about hit-and-run tactics, I am indeed aware of how smallscaling and ulti dumping works.

@Bramir healing? xD stam sorc here. Even with 37 points in quick recovery, I cannot outheal coldharbour siege dots. And again, once your healer (if you have one) is cc'ed and cannot break free, not because of his incompetence but due to the lag and insane delays, you are done for.

If you cannot understand what I'm saying, just say so instead of pretending you read and voicing your dumb and misinformed opinion.

Sounds like you are outnumbered everywhere? What faction and server u play on?

covenant_merchant

PC EU - DC on Trueflame. I don't mind being outnumbered per se, assuming I have a chance at killing my opponents. Unfortunately, you're getting sieged like crazy wherever you go, and open field running is out of the question due to the aforementioned snares, roots, delays etc.

Zheg

Jaronking wrote: »

@Zheg I would like to ask what are your thoughts on making Siege skill its damage similar to proxy set keep the current damage as is but increase it by the more people you hit?How would that affect group play ?

Meatbags aren't really about the dmg but still act as one of the best anti-personnel siege. The scaling mechanism wouldn't mean much for those. Honestly the only siege that would have noticeable impacts would be trebs as they hit for higher upfront burst damage, fire ballistae and oil aren't too bad if they can be purged.

Either way it still ends up favoring higher numbers. When you come across an old school group (so few remaining) you may get 1-2 people to drop a siege and fire once or twice, but that's it. Siege becomes a problem in group play when you run into the groups that stack multiple raids, spread out to bombard and siege and win through numbers and through the gutted survivability and mobility tools we still have remaining.

The damage was FINE prior to TG patch. You could absolutely kill groups with siege if it was well-timed and placed, people just wanted to be able to carpet bomb an area and instantly get kills so Wrobel/Wheeler buffed it because they thought it would spite groups. Many of our old wipes prior to TG were due to a well-timed meatbag or oil hitting us as we were engaged with another group.

I can mist form through a heavily sieged breach and lose about 20k hp over 3 seconds. That's insane. The only people defending the current damage are people that need a handicap to help them get kills. Many tried to argue that increased siege damage would help smaller groups fight larger groups, and as many others predicted it has done the exact opposite.

Celas_Dranacea

kasa-obake wrote: »

PC EU - DC on Trueflame. I don't mind being outnumbered per se, assuming I have a chance at killing my opponents. Unfortunately, you're getting sieged like crazy wherever you go, and open field running is out of the question due to the aforementioned snares, roots, delays etc.

I see well I have no experience with EU servers, so can't really speak to how outnumbered DC is there, but I imagine it's like everywhere else and you guys are the underdog, so that's a large part of your issue.

Regardless, I enjoy being called darling

dennissomb16_ESO

kasa-obake wrote: »

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

You are combining worst case scenarios and blaming everything on siege. According to you people should expect to always be outnumbered so perma CC while getting sieged (perma CC in this game from bombard and talons is stupid beyond belief), red markers failing a lot, for some reason purge not either working for you or not in a group with potential healers to help with purge, constantly in situations like resources or keeps where you want to fight right where there is all this CC and in range of siege and yet everyone else are idiots and siege sucks. I am not a good PvPer but I sure don't have your problems

Skyy

So basically you are whining that you lose when vastly outnumbered, you know, like any reasonable person would think you should.

Bramir

kasa-obake wrote: »

Hibbou wrote: »

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

That comment just once again proved your overall uselessness. Please, gtfo.

@Celas_Dranacea getting resources is all well and good, darling. Except you get outnumbered everywhere, seen as entire trains come to flip said resources back. Most of my deaths due to siege have happened at these resources, where there's nowhere to go, and while 20 enemies rush into the tower or barn or mill or whichever, three or four remain on the flag and place cold fire. Also, in case you missed my posts talking about hit-and-run tactics, I am indeed aware of how smallscaling and ulti dumping works.

@Bramir healing? xD stam sorc here. Even with 37 points in quick recovery, I cannot outheal coldharbour siege dots. And again, once your healer (if you have one) is cc'ed and cannot break free, not because of his incompetence but due to the lag and insane delays, you are done for.

If you cannot understand what I'm saying, just say so instead of pretending you read and voicing your dumb and misinformed opinion.

Why should a stamina build be able to outheal siege weapons? That is just ridiculous.

If you don't have any healers, how is anything else the problem (except maybe the fact that you don't see that as a problem)?

And having been a healer in more pvp squads than I can count, I call ***. Get more and/or better healers and you will not have as many problems with siege. If I can keep a PUG alive, I'm sure one of you 'hardcore' pvpers can keep your elite friends alive. Or maybe you aren't as good as you think you are...

Also, last I checked, being rooted does not prevent you from purging or healing.

Sandman929

Siege should hurt, but it shouldn't proc Vicious Death and kill others when someone on fire runs towards and dies.

Astanphaeus

Hibbou wrote: »

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

Pretty much, yeah. All I'm hearing at this point from certain mage guards and siege merchants is, "Wahhhh, wahhhhh, I'm a big baby, wahhhhh!"

Cody

kasa-obake wrote: »

Reading up on that wonderful thread makes me plain depressed and once again majorly disilusioned with the ESO community and humanity in general. Is reading such a difficult skill that most of you do not bother with it? True, it is more difficult than lazily left-clicking in the siege screen, but surely you can make an effort?

I just fail to understand how you can be so dim-witted and unaware of the game mechanics to not get the part where you cannot move and you cannot purge. See, let me repeat again for all of you guys who think they're witty and contributing to this discussion by saying such pointless things like "move" or "purge".
You cannot move when you're constantly snared, cc'ed, rollbacked or whatever.
You cannot purge unless you have a templar or a magicka sorc/dk, and even then, whenever that person is cc'ed, you most certainly don't get purge. Also, fighting outnumbered, you cannot spam purge either because it is expensive.

Those problems with the game mechanics aren't going anywhere unfortunately. Hence me talking about siege.

kasa-obake wrote: »

Hibbou wrote: »

ok, is it just me or is this post completly stupid?

That comment just once again proved your overall uselessness. Please, gtfo.

@Celas_Dranacea getting resources is all well and good, darling. Except you get outnumbered everywhere, seen as entire trains come to flip said resources back. Most of my deaths due to siege have happened at these resources, where there's nowhere to go, and while 20 enemies rush into the tower or barn or mill or whichever, three or four remain on the flag and place cold fire. Also, in case you missed my posts talking about hit-and-run tactics, I am indeed aware of how smallscaling and ulti dumping works.

@Bramir healing? xD stam sorc here. Even with 37 points in quick recovery, I cannot outheal coldharbour siege dots. And again, once your healer (if you have one) is cc'ed and cannot break free, not because of his incompetence but due to the lag and insane delays, you are done for.

If you cannot understand what I'm saying, just say so instead of pretending you read and voicing your dumb and misinformed opinion.

those players stayed back and set up siege to try to draw out and/or wipe that group. That is actually a better idea than charging in to be tower farmed. I myself almost always stay outside and set up siege when enemies are in a building camped up. That is a lot more useful than charging in to be farmed with the rest of the group.

" I cannot outheal a coldfire treb" of course not, you are not supposed to. It is SIEGE, it is supposed to hit hard and be devastating. If it could simply be outhealed it would be useless in battles, and if that were to happen zerg blobs would be neigh unstoppable. I know this because I was around when this was the case. At one point siege did basically nothing to balled up groups, and said groups had to be stopped via up front combat, and the result was constant server wide crashing and lagging out. I do not wish to return to those conditions.

Have the siege scale with the number of enemies in a group if change has to be made, but do not make siege so weak that a stamina sorcerer can outheal it.

Robbmrp

That single 27k siege hit could have been from the Emp. The first time I got hit with siege from one I was like WTF?!?!?!?! Their buffs make siege hits a 1 shot death every time. Other than that, I like where siege damage is at currently. It should hit really hard, these are very destructive machines, their tossing a one ton boulder at you, not a pillow.

Hibbou

kasa-obake wrote: »

PC EU - DC on Trueflame. I don't mind being outnumbered per se, assuming I have a chance at killing my opponents. Unfortunately, you're getting sieged like crazy wherever you go, and open field running is out of the question due to the aforementioned snares, roots, delays etc.

PC EU, DC outnumbered? that's hilarious, what time of the day please? 06:58 to 06:59? even in haderus blue can train raid on yellows and red at the same time ... I ve literally seen an hermetical train going from ash to nickel, it lasted for about 2 minutes befor i could go through the door

Skyy wrote: »

That comment just once again proved your overall uselessness. Please, gtfo.

@Celas_Dranacea getting resources is all well and good, darling. Except you get outnumbered everywhere, seen as entire trains come to flip said resources back. Most of my deaths due to siege have happened at these resources, where there's nowhere to go, and while 20 enemies rush into the tower or barn or mill or whichever, three or four remain on the flag and place cold fire. Also, in case you missed my posts talking about hit-and-run tactics, I am indeed aware of how smallscaling and ulti dumping works.

@Bramir healing? xD stam sorc here. Even with 37 points in quick recovery, I cannot outheal coldharbour siege dots. And again, once your healer (if you have one) is cc'ed and cannot break free, not because of his incompetence but due to the lag and insane delays, you are done for.

If you cannot understand what I'm saying, just say so instead of pretending you read and voicing your dumb and misinformed opinion.

No, I can't understand... I can't understand the need to nerf everything that kills YOU and buff everything that kills US... maybe because I am dumb, maybe because I am smart enough to stay out of range of those slow unacurate weapons.

I have a solution for you, there is no coldharbour siege in PVE

FatKidHatchets

Nothing wrong with siege. Change skills to fight it. Bet none of the complainers use siege shield or heavy armor cause they want max dps for instoganking. Hell stamina's can vigor and bone shield through it..

There are more ways to build your character than glass cannon solo ganker.

covenant_merchant

Yo @Cody I didn't ask for a siege nerf. "Make sieges scale with numbers, just like detonation", this is what I suggested in the op.
I just don't see what everyone's problem is with this idea. Unless of course they run in 24 lag-inducing pug groups that will most certainly die because of it.

@Robbmrp that 27k hit was from a random, not the emp.

@Hibbou on PC EU trueflame, DC was overwhelmingly underpopulated until about 5 days ago, when Prootch came back to this campaign. I never thought I'd be thankful to him, but I am. You mentioning Haderus is useless, just as pretty much anything you say.

Hibbou

kasa-obake wrote: »

"I want my little piece of smallscaling happiness in ESO, and if it involves crying a lot, and ripping said happiness out of other people's throats by playing like a woman of promiscuous sexual behavior, then so be it"

well, everything is said here, so basically your "little piece of smallscaling happiness" has to apply to YOU and only YOU or you will trash the forum, well do us a favor, go back to noob island, and pwn all the NPCs you want, you shouldn't encounter too much resistance, you could be a GOD among them

covenant_merchant

Why so salty, man xD Is it because you keep getting rekt in-game ?