On sieges and how broken they are

Cody

and I get hit by 10K plus attacks quite frequently. No way am i charging into the battle to just be 2 shot by a sniper or 2H user.

Furthermore, nor will i sit there and watch my teammates be endlessly tanked by enemies. I am ending that, with siege if need be. there are important things that need to be done; and Neither I nor does anyone else have time to be tanked for 5+ minutes.

Call it unskilled, cowardly, honorless, I don't care. I would rather stay back and contribute via siege the "skillless way" than run in to just be literally 2-3 shot by someone whose attacks manage to go over or at 10K almost every hit. I also would rather stay back and play "the skillless way" and actually contribute to the group, than force myself to chase and fight someone who continually spams vigor and roll dodge.

Facing people that constantly roll dodge and spam vigor with almost no end is infuriating to me. I cannot stand it, especially considering those same players are often able to still put out powerful attacks constantly during the battle. If I am given the opportunity to avoid dealing with that unbalanced mess I will.

I am not trying to be or sound judgmental, at all. I am only expressing how I feel about the matter. As soon as attacks stop hitting for over 10K and players actually run out of resources when they spam abilities over and over again, I will start eagerly getting into fights. Until then I do what must be done to contribute, and to help my faction win.

/end rant.

Jaronking

@Cody how much crit resistance do you have?

Mauz

I dont like sieges. I dont use it. Its not pvp in my eyes. Does way too much damage for a firing range far beyond all ranged skills a character can use. And endless tower farming, alessia bridge fights and similar broken play styles only work with overdone siege dmg.

Telel

kasa-obake wrote: »

Imagine you are a 6 man group, fighting in a keep or resource and what not. It only requires one pug, one no-skilled little scrub, far too lazy to fight to place a siege and ruin any attempts at finding decent PvP.
If you have any suggestions as to what/if anything should be done with that insane damage, feel free to post your opinions.

kasa-obake wrote: »

@Telel as for your insightful post, I think that you haven't read very carefully the op, for whatever reason. Or, if I haven't put enough emphasis on the OUTNUMBERED part, then I apologize.
If you actually die in a group or even alone against only one sieger and NPCs, then you deserve it and should just hide in a corner in shame and not complain on forums. This is not the situation I am talking about.

Telel read plenty. Including the part where it said to say what khajiit thought on the matter.

Considering Telel does in fact lead attacks on keeps in which the defenders try to defend themselves and have defended keeps where they are the only defender you will have to excuse a humble one for coming to the conclusion you simply lack knowledge of the fundamentals this game requires for successful siege craft.

Also a tail. You lack a tail.

Recremen

I don't usually mind siege, but when there are multiple invisible damage circles all over the place and you end up getting hit by five different siege at once it's a tad annoying. Some folks are running 20/20 countersiege right now whenever we try to take a keep, which on the one hand is really cool to see (gotta love coordinated opponents, even if they have to rely on Great Equalizers), but when I can't even tell what I'm getting hit by it's a problem. I'd also posit that currently siege favors keep defenders a little too much, favors those running in extremely high numbers too much, and in large group play does too much to help lower-skilled players overcome opponents overcome players with better gear and builds, but it's not an extreme problem right now, just a little annoyance.

Soulac

Thread about sieges?
Whatever. Fix willows path.

Armitas

No one wants to engage in PvP anymore. They just want to retreat from engaging in personal combat so they can stay in the back lines spamming bombard or firing siege. They don't care about getting better, they just want to win and feel good about themselves. I have seen them put camps on a resource to take it while they have the keep and out number. They define the term zergling. Who needs a knight, a queen, a king, a rook, a bishop when you 40 pawns that you can pour into the battle.

Lucky28

After DB was released i use Siege all the damn time. Siege has replaced prox det for me. I don't like that Siege is now my main source of big burst on groups larger than my own. but that's the way it is.

Armitas

Lucky28 wrote: »

After DB was released i use Siege all the damn time. Siege has replaced prox det for me. I don't like that Siege is now my main source of big burst on groups larger than my own. but that's the way it is.

I don't blame you. You know what doesn't happen when you are on siege? Bombard spam, Inescapable negates, broken purges, health desyncs etc. You basically get to avoid everything that ZOS has shoveled into cyrodiil with every update.

Cody

I am a NB, not a templar, and I generally run in small groups. I only join zergs for an assault on a keeps inner, and even then I stay outside half the time.

Now that we have that out of the way, we can discuss other things.

How much crit resistance do I have? Admittedly not as much as I used too (in fact none on this new set I just tried) but that is a difference of what a few thousand damage? So I get hit for 8K instead of say 10? Well that is still going to 3 shot my 25K HP pool, which is what I see most people have. (keep in mind i base 8K of of my 2.8K weapon damage, most have a lot more than me, so in reality 8K is quite short) regardless of ALL of that, that is still 3 shotting most people, why is it ok for regular attacks to do so but not siege? Why is it ok for someone to charge in and press WB 3 times and kill someone, but not for someone to use an easily dodgeable and purgable siege to kill someone?

but enough about skill, skill is not the point. Those Palitines sat back and sieged because they know how best to take out a group, and the best way IS NOT charging into the blob and feeding the tanks, the best IS to use siege. They can be the worst fighters in the game, but they are utilizing a tool provided by ZOS to end a conflict, that is appropriate.

Telel

Armitas wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

After DB was released i use Siege all the damn time. Siege has replaced prox det for me. I don't like that Siege is now my main source of big burst on groups larger than my own. but that's the way it is.

I don't blame you. You know what doesn't happen when you are on siege? Bombard spam, Inescapable negates, broken purges, health desyncs etc. You basically get to avoid everything that ZOS has shoveled into cyrodiil with every update.

But it does get you a khajiit rolling through you with Morihaus, and THEN some bombard as they roll onto their next target.

Lucky28

Armitas wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

After DB was released i use Siege all the damn time. Siege has replaced prox det for me. I don't like that Siege is now my main source of big burst on groups larger than my own. but that's the way it is.

I don't blame you. You know what doesn't happen when you are on siege? Bombard spam, Inescapable negates, broken purges, health desyncs etc. You basically get to avoid everything that ZOS has shoveled into cyrodiil with every update.

As true as that is. i don't actually sit on Siege. i sit down a siege, i shoot it then i proceed with my skill/ult burst. it's basically a bomb blade with Siege rather than det XD.

Though i don't use VD either cause it's kinda cheesy in my opinion.

Cody

Armitas wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

After DB was released i use Siege all the damn time. Siege has replaced prox det for me. I don't like that Siege is now my main source of big burst on groups larger than my own. but that's the way it is.

I don't blame you. You know what doesn't happen when you are on siege? Bombard spam, Inescapable negates, broken purges, health desyncs etc. You basically get to avoid everything that ZOS has shoveled into cyrodiil with every update.

I also find I suffer less from lag when sieging from a distance. I do not know why, but when I enter a blob my latency goes to Oblivion much of the time. My computer most likely.

Jaronking

So @Cody what you are saying you run less than 2k crit resistance? Well I can see why you get hit so hard and not really a 2k difference 8-10k WB now hit around 3-4 crit resistance is pretty good.You wouldn't be 3 shooted so much then.

Cody

Jaronking wrote: »

So @Cody what you are saying you run less than 2k crit resistance? Well I can see why you get hit so hard and not really a 2k difference 8-10k WB now hit around 3-4 crit resistance is pretty good.You wouldn't be 3 shooted so much then.

Well I thank you for not acting judgmentally. /sigh what a mess, pigeonholed into something.

Back to talking about siege:)

snejremllov

This thread clearly shows that the majority of players doesn't have a clue how small scale and outumbered pvp is played. ZOS continues to patch the game in a way that favors large groups and gives them an edge on top of the inherent advantage of superior numbers. On this current patch snares are worse than ever and mobility is worse than ever across the board.

Now imagine a small group of players heavily outnumbered, getting perma snared by all the lovely skills that do so. Since that is clearly not enough, you can count on at least a few highly skilled individuals to place their sieges to make your life even worse. Yes purge exists but you simply cannot afford to have a person spam that skill in a small group.

Jaronking

Cody wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

So @Cody what you are saying you run less than 2k crit resistance? Well I can see why you get hit so hard and not really a 2k difference 8-10k WB now hit around 3-4 crit resistance is pretty good.You wouldn't be 3 shooted so much then.

Well I thank you for not acting judgmentally. /sigh what a mess, pigeonholed into something.

Back to talking about siege:)

NP I try not to be judgmental in most of my post.

If its between not getting 3 shooted repeatedly and getting 3 shooted am use what works.Hey if you want Zero survivability you can do that I don't judge free AP in my book.

I say the only problem with siege is that the circle sometimes don't show up so I have a lot of WTF just happened deaths.Even anything I would agree Scaling Siege to do more damage to the more people you hit would be a good addition to. the game and still help smaller groups defend keeps.I can also see this as a problem for Guild groups running 24 mn as well.When running through a breach its already hard enough as is this will probably make things harder.

ToRelax

snejremllov wrote: »

This thread clearly shows that the majority of players doesn't have a clue how small scale and outumbered pvp is played. ZOS continues to patch the game in a way that favors large groups and gives them an edge on top of the inherent advantage of superior numbers. On this current patch snares are worse than ever and mobility is worse than ever across the board.

Now imagine a small group of players heavily outnumbered, getting perma snared by all the lovely skills that do so. Since that is clearly not enough, you can count on at least a few highly skilled individuals to place their sieges to make your life even worse. Yes purge exists but you simply cannot afford to have a person spam that skill in a small group.

Does it now. And what do the majority say that makes you so sure? Do they have a different opinion maybe?

MLRPZ

I wouldn't mind sieges if purge wasn't that broken...

Orchish

Siege is fine, roll out of the circle. We have camps again now use them. Siege has been pathetic for too long. It's about time it was made deadly.

MLRPZ

Orchish wrote: »

Siege is fine, roll out of the circle. We have camps again now use them. Siege has been pathetic for too long. It's about time it was made deadly.

not that easy when outnumbered.

Tbf, the main problem with siege is that it's way to easy to place/use/store/exit from. You are dealing a lot of damage by pointing and clicking like a pro ? then there should be a downside on that "power"

snejremllov

.

ToRelax wrote: »

snejremllov wrote: »

This thread clearly shows that the majority of players doesn't have a clue how small scale and outumbered pvp is played. ZOS continues to patch the game in a way that favors large groups and gives them an edge on top of the inherent advantage of superior numbers. On this current patch snares are worse than ever and mobility is worse than ever across the board.

Now imagine a small group of players heavily outnumbered, getting perma snared by all the lovely skills that do so. Since that is clearly not enough, you can count on at least a few highly skilled individuals to place their sieges to make your life even worse. Yes purge exists but you simply cannot afford to have a person spam that skill in a small group.

Does it now. And what do the majority say that makes you so sure? Do they have a different opinion maybe?

People claiming that dieing to siege in outnumbered situations is l2p clearly don't know what they're talking about. They have the freedom of being of that opinion but I have the freedom of pointing out the stupidity behind it.

ToRelax

snejremllov wrote: »

.

ToRelax wrote: »

snejremllov wrote: »

This thread clearly shows that the majority of players doesn't have a clue how small scale and outumbered pvp is played. ZOS continues to patch the game in a way that favors large groups and gives them an edge on top of the inherent advantage of superior numbers. On this current patch snares are worse than ever and mobility is worse than ever across the board.

Now imagine a small group of players heavily outnumbered, getting perma snared by all the lovely skills that do so. Since that is clearly not enough, you can count on at least a few highly skilled individuals to place their sieges to make your life even worse. Yes purge exists but you simply cannot afford to have a person spam that skill in a small group.

Does it now. And what do the majority say that makes you so sure? Do they have a different opinion maybe?

People claiming that dieing to siege in outnumbered situations is l2p clearly don't know what they're talking about. They have the freedom of being of that opinion but I have the freedom of pointing out the stupidity behind it.

You can not always avoid dying to siege just as much as you can't completely avoid dying to anything else. But unlike some other mechanics, you can use it to greater effect than brainless zergs. L2P

Bramir

Slot purge.

MLRPZ

Bramir wrote: »

Slot purge.

thank you captain obvious, you might want to read that thread then : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272468/bug-purge-always-hitting-same-six/p1


and also L2read the OP

AlexHo1982

Since several people that are against siege have been stating, if X was not broken (or nerfed to the ground) in the game siege would not be a problem, I have to wonder if siege weapons should really be balanced around past missteps from the combat team concerning certain skills, bugs and the lack of performance in Cyrodiil? This goes for other topics as well.

ZOS needs to fix the actual problems (invisible animations, desyncs, lag, overly weakened group skills, etc.) and siege damage does not seem to be really one of them. Other small scale players complain about the lack of tools against zergs (AoE caps!) and here we are discussing weakening on of the last strong options against them, since they also have access to those tools. Those kinds of weapons should hit hard and the frequency of firing them is rather slow, they can be avoided, purged, etc. There are plenty of counters, meaning that there is already a balance concerning them.

Also, people avoiding choke zones and killing people with siege weapons from the outside is just rather smart. Using the provided tools at the right time is also one way to outplay someone...

The-Baconator

snejremllov wrote: »

.

ToRelax wrote: »

snejremllov wrote: »

This thread clearly shows that the majority of players doesn't have a clue how small scale and outumbered pvp is played. ZOS continues to patch the game in a way that favors large groups and gives them an edge on top of the inherent advantage of superior numbers. On this current patch snares are worse than ever and mobility is worse than ever across the board.

Now imagine a small group of players heavily outnumbered, getting perma snared by all the lovely skills that do so. Since that is clearly not enough, you can count on at least a few highly skilled individuals to place their sieges to make your life even worse. Yes purge exists but you simply cannot afford to have a person spam that skill in a small group.

Does it now. And what do the majority say that makes you so sure? Do they have a different opinion maybe?

People claiming that dieing to siege in outnumbered situations is l2p clearly don't know what they're talking about. They have the freedom of being of that opinion but I have the freedom of pointing out the stupidity behind it.

To be fair most have probably never been part of a 3-4 man group that consistently rekts bad 24mans so they haven't had the experience of said groups dropping more coldfire than you have people in an effort to actually kill you. I agree its incredibly annoying but its next to impossible to balance siege for that scenario while keeping it relevant enough to give pug zergs a fighting chance against an organized 12-24 man.

MLRPZ

AlexHo1982 wrote: »

Since several people that are against siege have been stating, if X was not broken (or nerfed to the ground) in the game siege would not be a problem, I have to wonder if siege weapons should really be balanced around past missteps from the combat team concerning certain skills, bugs and the lack of performance in Cyrodiil? This goes for other topics as well.

ZOS needs to fix the actual problems (invisible animations, desyncs, lag, overly weakened group skills, etc.) and siege damage does not seem to be really one of them. Other small scale players complain about the lack of tools against zergs (AoE caps!) and here we are discussing weakening on of the last strong options against them, since they also have access to those tools. Those kinds of weapons should hit hard and the frequency of firing them is rather slow, they can be avoided, purged, etc. There are plenty of counters, meaning that there is already a balance concerning them.

Also, people avoiding choke zones and killing people with siege weapons from the outside is just rather smart. Using the provided tools at the right time is also one way to outplay someone...

I'll explain it once more then :

Take a 8 man group facing a 30 ppl group in open field. Do you really think the 8 ppl can spare 1 or 2 guys to siege the other group ?
nope
Do you think the 30 ppl group can spare even 10 guys to siege the 8 man group ?
Yes

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

The only issue with siege atm is the purge bug.

AlexHo1982

MLRPZ wrote: »

I'll explain it once more then :

Take a 8 man group facing a 30 ppl group in open field. Do you really think the 8 ppl can spare 1 or 2 guys to siege the other group ?
nope
Do you think the 30 ppl group can spare even 10 guys to siege the 8 man group ?
Yes

I get it and I think the 8 man group did pick the wrong fight in this case. What you guys are asking for is not balance for an AvAvA based PvP game.