Let's talk about Stamina builds

kaithuzar

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing post is getting too long so listing specific points I want to address:

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?
Have you played the game lately? We've been in a recent meta of CC/root/stun city, how do you expect a magic player to have a ton of stam to break free & get away? I've adapted my build so I'm not terrible at this but it's still tough & most non sorc magic builds have this issue

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.
ok, so insert "your choice of damaging ability", because there a plenty of players out there which can do a single non-crit attack for over 10k, my shields are 10k total, each individual shield is less maybe 8k for harness (not a sorc, mag nb). #dmgISreal

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
...bunch of math...

What's insulting is the fact that you feel you need to display your ability to do elementary math without calculating all possibilities! You list out a few things & then clearly state you did not account for well fitted? You said nothing about the champion tree, you said nothing about reducing stam cost such as vicious ophidian or other sets. If you are going to prove a point then prove it but don't waste forum space trying to prove to everyone you can multiply & subtract; it's boring & insulting.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT...
I'll agree, however you have to remember this also depends on class:
dk = igneous (major mendiing), coagulating blood (minor vitality?)
templar = Restoring Aura (major mendiing), Restoring Focus (minor vitality)
nb can have vitality, not sure about sorc, but point being major mending is a huge deal IMO
when you add in the fact that mending & vitality can stack with malabeth it's makes a fight really annoying

I appreciate you condensing the post but here are some flaws with your post...

First you should have no problem what so ever with shields if you're 1vXing you have the ability to LOS just like anyone else in addition to stacking shields so use it to your advantage.

Second you're lying about a non crit 10K ability I don't beleive that's even possible that means you're not putting points into hardy and they have a tool tip of 20K yeah bull crap man.

But shields can be 2 shot or three shot since stam builds can get high WD but this "oh mer gurd they deal 10K non crit dmg" is utter bull crap.

Third I love how you insult me when Im proving you guys wrong. I actually calculated a build running 7/7 medium and 100 pts into Tumbling if you go back an read it but you refuse to acknowledge that. Most builds don't use well fitted nor put 100 pts into Tumbling not do they run 7/7 medium armor and they aren't running trials sets since most PVPer hate PVE. I did the math to prove that this magic perma rolling builds do not exist what else do you want me to do? Just say it ain't so with out facts?

I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me that it's possible to literally perma roll once you do that I leave it at that. I untill then you've lost the argument here by insulting me and not providing evidence of your own.

Lastly all the buffs you mentioned are geared to help healing in general but they benefit magic builds more since you guys have more healing skills available and they synergizes with magic builds.

The only problem I have with shields is people running shield breaker; it happens. Just saying it's hard to combat; no big gripes though.

Lying about 10k non crit???
I don't have a stam toon to give you that aspect, but here's a tooltip screenshot
https://postimg.org/image/so8jcntvr/
Granted this is an ult, but I did correct myself & say "input your choice of damaging ability here" which means I believe there are some abilities that hit for 10k or more non-crit. You don't have to believe what I believe, and of course there are a ton of factors that can go into mitigating the damage, I'm just trying to say that the damage "exists".

Regarding the math, I have no way to verify any numbers which you posted. I'm not a developer for this game, I understand that the community has put certain information out on forums of what they have come up with & ZOS may have released "some numbers/math" but outside of trying to verify your sources for your math I have no reason to speak against it.
The ONLY thing I can call out from "skimming it" (due to inability to verify) is that you yourself had stated the math was based on "certain conditions" which you believe the "majority" of players were using. This is totally opinionated unless you work for Zenimax & can prove otherwise. (It's my opinion that there are a ton of zergball idiots that play eso now & most of them are not optimized build wise.)
I was simply trying to state whether or not it's possible, not whether or not it's "optimal". But I should be clear & rather should have stated like:
"in my mind, infinite dodge roll is equal to dodge rolling 10+ times in a row"
placing a half a second to 1 second pause between every other dodge rolls to get a little more regen for longer duration & maximum dodge rolling can be OP in the right situation (thus the point of nerfing inifinte dodge roll in the first place adding, what I think is, the multiplicative cost)

The problem with the buffs is magicka dk can run igneous & bubble sure, but from what I've been hearing they do horrible damage, thus the DK QQ thread with a google doc spreadsheet I was reading earlier.
The weapon damage + shuffle is what makes stam dk's OP on top of having major mending & minor vitality to increase their rally & vigor ticks.

Magic nb is kind of a similar situation, pve damage is OP hitting numbers seen at 55k, but in pvp over half of that damage is mitigated by reflect, damage absorbing shields, inability to crit, etc..
So it doesn't matter if magicka nightblade can survive decently by teleporting, attempting to heal without major mending, & shield stacking because at the end of the day the damage isn't really there in comparison.
Stamina nightblades having the higher damage output in pvp, also without major mending, can mitigate most of the single target damage by roll dodging. They fall prey to aoe's but unless it's a ball group who is really doing 3-4k+ aoe damage non crit besides myself? (it's a pretty niche thing i think)
Stam nightblade's thing is they can kill their opponent fast thus mitigating the need for heals, shields or dodging around. I think this is really all stam users in pvp at the moment though.

I'm not complaining about stamina nightblades, my point is that stam is just greater than magicka at the moment in pvp & as a magicka user it kinda sucks. Also, as I've stated on other posts I feel nb's & sorcs should get at least a minor mending buff since dk's & templars have major mending now.

Jaronking

Just want to say all magic builds have access to major mending by using a restro staff.We don't get that from using a 2H.

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kaithuzar wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing post is getting too long so listing specific points I want to address:

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?
Have you played the game lately? We've been in a recent meta of CC/root/stun city, how do you expect a magic player to have a ton of stam to break free & get away? I've adapted my build so I'm not terrible at this but it's still tough & most non sorc magic builds have this issue

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.
ok, so insert "your choice of damaging ability", because there a plenty of players out there which can do a single non-crit attack for over 10k, my shields are 10k total, each individual shield is less maybe 8k for harness (not a sorc, mag nb). #dmgISreal

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
...bunch of math...

What's insulting is the fact that you feel you need to display your ability to do elementary math without calculating all possibilities! You list out a few things & then clearly state you did not account for well fitted? You said nothing about the champion tree, you said nothing about reducing stam cost such as vicious ophidian or other sets. If you are going to prove a point then prove it but don't waste forum space trying to prove to everyone you can multiply & subtract; it's boring & insulting.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT...
I'll agree, however you have to remember this also depends on class:
dk = igneous (major mendiing), coagulating blood (minor vitality?)
templar = Restoring Aura (major mendiing), Restoring Focus (minor vitality)
nb can have vitality, not sure about sorc, but point being major mending is a huge deal IMO
when you add in the fact that mending & vitality can stack with malabeth it's makes a fight really annoying

I appreciate you condensing the post but here are some flaws with your post...

First you should have no problem what so ever with shields if you're 1vXing you have the ability to LOS just like anyone else in addition to stacking shields so use it to your advantage.

Second you're lying about a non crit 10K ability I don't beleive that's even possible that means you're not putting points into hardy and they have a tool tip of 20K yeah bull crap man.

But shields can be 2 shot or three shot since stam builds can get high WD but this "oh mer gurd they deal 10K non crit dmg" is utter bull crap.

Third I love how you insult me when Im proving you guys wrong. I actually calculated a build running 7/7 medium and 100 pts into Tumbling if you go back an read it but you refuse to acknowledge that. Most builds don't use well fitted nor put 100 pts into Tumbling not do they run 7/7 medium armor and they aren't running trials sets since most PVPer hate PVE. I did the math to prove that this magic perma rolling builds do not exist what else do you want me to do? Just say it ain't so with out facts?

I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me that it's possible to literally perma roll once you do that I leave it at that. I untill then you've lost the argument here by insulting me and not providing evidence of your own.

Lastly all the buffs you mentioned are geared to help healing in general but they benefit magic builds more since you guys have more healing skills available and they synergizes with magic builds.

The only problem I have with shields is people running shield breaker; it happens. Just saying it's hard to combat; no big gripes though.

Lying about 10k non crit???
I don't have a stam toon to give you that aspect, but here's a tooltip screenshot
https://postimg.org/image/so8jcntvr/
Granted this is an ult, but I did correct myself & say "input your choice of damaging ability here" which means I believe there are some abilities that hit for 10k or more non-crit. You don't have to believe what I believe, and of course there are a ton of factors that can go into mitigating the damage, I'm just trying to say that the damage "exists".

Regarding the math, I have no way to verify any numbers which you posted. I'm not a developer for this game, I understand that the community has put certain information out on forums of what they have come up with & ZOS may have released "some numbers/math" but outside of trying to verify your sources for your math I have no reason to speak against it.
The ONLY thing I can call out from "skimming it" (due to inability to verify) is that you yourself had stated the math was based on "certain conditions" which you believe the "majority" of players were using. This is totally opinionated unless you work for Zenimax & can prove otherwise. (It's my opinion that there are a ton of zergball idiots that play eso now & most of them are not optimized build wise.)
I was simply trying to state whether or not it's possible, not whether or not it's "optimal". But I should be clear & rather should have stated like:
"in my mind, infinite dodge roll is equal to dodge rolling 10+ times in a row"
placing a half a second to 1 second pause between every other dodge rolls to get a little more regen for longer duration & maximum dodge rolling can be OP in the right situation (thus the point of nerfing inifinte dodge roll in the first place adding, what I think is, the multiplicative cost)

The problem with the buffs is magicka dk can run igneous & bubble sure, but from what I've been hearing they do horrible damage, thus the DK QQ thread with a google doc spreadsheet I was reading earlier.
The weapon damage + shuffle is what makes stam dk's OP on top of having major mending & minor vitality to increase their rally & vigor ticks.

Magic nb is kind of a similar situation, pve damage is OP hitting numbers seen at 55k, but in pvp over half of that damage is mitigated by reflect, damage absorbing shields, inability to crit, etc..
So it doesn't matter if magicka nightblade can survive decently by teleporting, attempting to heal without major mending, & shield stacking because at the end of the day the damage isn't really there in comparison.
Stamina nightblades having the higher damage output in pvp, also without major mending, can mitigate most of the single target damage by roll dodging. They fall prey to aoe's but unless it's a ball group who is really doing 3-4k+ aoe damage non crit besides myself? (it's a pretty niche thing i think)
Stam nightblade's thing is they can kill their opponent fast thus mitigating the need for heals, shields or dodging around. I think this is really all stam users in pvp at the moment though.

I'm not complaining about stamina nightblades, my point is that stam is just greater than magicka at the moment in pvp & as a magicka user it kinda sucks. Also, as I've stated on other posts I feel nb's & sorcs should get at least a minor mending buff since dk's & templars have major mending now.

Agreed here, Stam is Over preforming in PVP but I still beleive magic builds have the upper hand interms of survivability. What you guys need to be doing is asking for more dps buffs.

The reason magic builds deal less dmg is because of the whole "ranged advantage vs melee disadvantage" argument which has been debunked many times to be irrelevant.

I should know I like to play an archer but In punished for doing anything other than ganking by gap close spamming roll dodging shuffle monkeys.

kaithuzar

@ShadowStarKing what I don't understand is why is everyone in AD a squishy sniper?
Everyone in DC & EP are mostly stamina 1vX builds that wreck groups of 5 or less on the regular yet everyone on AD refuses to build for this method & ends up running away or dying in 2 hits.
AD Stam users, what is wrong with you????

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@kaithuzar

Lol nah man I'm in EP and Im not squishy I just want to use bow as a primary weapon but right now you can't because its not designed that way. I have DW as a back up weapon and can hold my own in melee comabt.

With the burst meta right now archers are best suited as gankers it's better to one shot people than to openly engage with bows terrible slow dps skill snipe.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Agreed here, Stam is Over preforming in PVP but I still beleive magic builds have the upper hand interms of survivability. What you guys need to be doing is asking for more dps buffs.

The reason magic builds deal less dmg is because of the whole "ranged advantage vs melee disadvantage" argument which has been debunked many times to be irrelevant.

I should know I like to play an archer but In punished for doing anything other than ganking by gap close spamming roll dodging shuffle monkeys.

Thanks for the replies to my questions earlier, everyone.

While my melee Magblade feels stronger while I'm leveling, I'm guessing that's definitely not going to hold true in Cyrodiil.

One final question: how much help would the DoTs from Lotus Fan, Crippling Grasp, and Structured Entropy help a melee Magblade? I know the burst is nowhere near what a Stamblade can put out, but I'm just wondering.

It seem that the Magblade's major disadvantage, though, is the low Stamina pool that makes it easy to run them dry and finish off. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again for the insights, everyone!

Oxwood

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet but light armor gives you way less resistance than medium armor so magic builds are naturally more squishy. So I say make the armor values of light and medium equal. Their should also be a morph of rapid regeneration that gives a burst heal similar to rally, and maybe a mages guild skill called like illusion or something that gives the evasion buff, and maybe snare immunity. This in my opinion would be bring both playstyles to be more evenly balanced.

Tonturri

Oxwood wrote: »

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet but light armor gives you way less resistance than medium armor so magic builds are naturally more squishy. So I say make the armor values of light and medium equal. Their should also be a morph of rapid regeneration that gives a burst heal similar to rally, and maybe a mages guild skill called like illusion or something that gives the evasion buff, and maybe snare immunity. This in my opinion would be bring both playstyles to be more evenly balanced.

There kind of it, it's called Mutagen. Gives a chunk of healing when you go below 20% health - the healing could use a bit of help though, and perhaps the proc health % could be raised as well. Last I heard the 'burst' heal was ~5k outside of Cyro, although it also gives a tiny cleanse when the heal procs.

One final question: how much help would the DoTs from Lotus Fan, Crippling Grasp, and Structured Entropy help a melee Magblade? I know the burst is nowhere near what a Stamblade can put out, but I'm just wondering.

Quite a bit. Lotus fan IIRC is a snare, structured entropy is your major sorcery buff for damage, and Crippling Grasp is another snare that also give you a speed boost (and ticks for a respectable amount). I personally prefer Sap Essence over Entropy though, just cuz it's AoE and heals. Good for pulling enemies out of stealth, etc.

It seem that the Magblade's major disadvantage, though, is the low Stamina pool that makes it easy to run them dry and finish off. Does that sound about right?

I have not found this to be the case, although I use Siphoning Strikes, and I do not recall seeing any videos of other mNBs using it. It might be because of the nerf to proxy det, which lost magicka NB's their burst, so now they don't hit as hard? I don't have enough experience to answer that.

However, I currently have both a stam and magicka NB (just finished leveling the stam one two days ago >_>). The stam girl hits a lot harder than the magicka one, and once she gets vigor could possibly have better defenses. Cloak's lack of reliability hits magicka NBs harder than it does magicka NBs, since magicka leans on the ability a lot more.

kadar

Oxwood wrote: »

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this yet but light armor gives you way less resistance than medium armor so magic builds are naturally more squishy. So I say make the armor values of light and medium equal. Their should also be a morph of rapid regeneration that gives a burst heal similar to rally, and maybe a mages guild skill called like illusion or something that gives the evasion buff, and maybe snare immunity. This in my opinion would be bring both playstyles to be more evenly balanced.

Oh my goodness, nooooo. There is a difference between things that are balanced and things that are the same. We want Magicka and Stamina builds to be balanced overall while retaining their differences.
Magicka builds can do things that Stamina builds cannot and vice versa. This is good. What we as players should be looking for is an overall equality in power/viability/utility between different builds.

The answer to balance is not, "Give stamina shields and give Magicka shuffle." We would all be the same with different colored resource bars.

Sandman929

They need to divorce the effectiveness of healing, buffs and debuffs, CC breaks, and practically every other Utility from the primary damage Attributes (Stam, Mag) and tie them to Health.
Both Stam and Mag focused builds would have to invest in Health and they would have to BALANCE damage and mitigation. Then the insane damage stacking train could finally end and we could see some actual build variety.

syko809

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

tist wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing

You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool

This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.

Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:

Stam - hit hard with less survivability

Magic - hit less hard with high survivability

Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling

Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.

Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge

Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.

Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.

Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.

This is incorrect shields only mitigate 10-12k Thats 2 hits or less from one person what about 10 people?. Dodge role avoids 100% of damage against any number of people it could be 100k damage mitigation with one role. Not even close in comparison. Shields don not scale anywhere near as good as dodge role, vigor, and rally in 1vX.

Nope. If you have a shield active you absorbs ALL incoming dmg. If you dodge roll you're still suspectable to AoE attacks and blocking only mitigates 80% of dmg if you refuse you curse them or use an AoE then thats on you. If I want to beat a shield stacker I have to wear a 5 piece set and Light attack.

With shields you can spam reapply it with no punishment it's not like there's a cost increase for using it withing 4 secs.....

On the flip side if I roll continously I run out of stam even if I went for a full sustain build so Magic still has the upper hand in defense and healing. Infact you have an entire skill tree for healing.

If you don't want to use a resto that's fine each class has self healing in their tree:

NB- swallowed soul, refreshing path, sap essence

Dk - buring ember, draw essence

Temp - restoring ligh skill line

Sorc - surge (kinda meh but it's meant as a side heal), restoring twilight, clanfear and blood magic passives

Are some of these heals viable? Nope. But you have way more options with survivability than the typical 2h an bow vigor builds.

Not every stam build uses a 2h or shuffle but we all HAVE to use vigor as a heal.

I think what they are getting at is that with vigor you can heal your self from almost death to 75% health or 30% to 100% health in about 2 seconds. But with resto staff heals you cant do that so stam has the upper hand