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Let's talk about Stamina builds
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Paraflex✭✭✭✭
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with youHollykills CP 630 Templar Healer - Ad PS4 Warlord Rank
Max Stam/Mag Dk
Max Stam Sorc
Max Stam/Mag NB
Don't care to dps much so I heal.1 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would have to agree with this
I think the op highlights the problem. Stamina builds hit harder and has better survivability due to their mobility advantage. In conclusion, Either healing is too strong, dodge rolling is to much, or damage output is too high. Stamina players should not have all three. Magicka builds have to make choices and sacrifices. Do stamina builds? The argument that 1 resource pool is weak. The meta proves that although you have 1 resource pool, you are able to still gain a significant competitive advantage with it. You can stack and throw everything into it. It synergizes better with the builds. Pvp is based on damage, ccs, and mobility.
Imo it's just the healing that needs to be toned down. Having higher damage and evasion I'm fine with, but the selfhealing they are capable of is ridicilous xDEU | PC0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.4 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Nerf Rally. I don't mind. I use Forward Momentum anyway.
If i hadnt 1v1 you i would call you crazy. but you are strong with the sneaky sneaky so i buy this. One Problem. I cant cloak my dk. I gotta stand there and take the hits, no burst heal if rally gets nerfed. Id be so reliant on a pocket healer or wrobel the destroyer fixing dragonsblood to even survive.
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Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭What's really changed between TG and DB though?
Proxi deto and shields (mostly affects sorcs) got nerfed, and stam builds got a physical damage ulti. Am I missing something big?
Ive been running a 2h/bow stam DK setup since TG hit and tbh I dont feel particularly stronger now than before DB. Slightly less bursty actually, due to losing the empower on uppercut. Was nice for empowered leaps.
Keep in mind that stamina builds have a crazy powerful racial choice right now (redguard) and that might change after the racial passives rebalancing theyre doing in update 11. Also malubeth-wearing stamina builds are obviously performing ridiculously well in terms of heals right now but Id say that's not a stamina-specific thing.0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Bruh healing OP you didn't know.Those heavy restro attackd hit hard lol but fair point.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.WreckfulAbandon wrote: »So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:
"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."
So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?
Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless
In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.
And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.
Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.
I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me
Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.
You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.
Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....
I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.
Guess you haven't been watching fengrush or krotha lately in large scale pvp. Those guys dodge roll and run right into the thick of battle with awesome mobility and damage casting vigor like a champ and bouncing from enemy to enemy with stampede/crit charge. Granted they have help and use a lot of tools but it highlight the power of dodge rolling, vigor, and damage output of two handers with wb animation canceling. If I tried doing that on my mageblade I would be dead in 2 seconds. We don't have the mobility. And no I don't want to be forced to use alchemist, proxy det, and vicious death just to do the single target and aoe damage they can do with dawn breaker and reverse slice from a two hander and benefits of medium armor.
Those are reallllly good players.... I don't mean to be harsh but if you tried doing what they do with stamina toons, you'd be dead in about 2 seconds too.... I've seen enough magblades blow up a full group in about 2 seconds too. But you don't see me claiming mageblade op....
1vX only works when you are fighting potatoes.... You could name any goody guild from Khole to invictus and arcane and these guys would tear out 1vXers in about 2 seconds....be it stamina or magicka...
Lol you don't know me or my skill. Assume that I would die in 2 seconds using stamina. Should I convert my magicka sorc to stamina and run fengrush build and post a video to prove you wrong?
What you have seen are bombblades blow up groups. Any semean schmuckatelly can put on alchemist, vicious death, proxy det, and jump into a crowd and blow people up. No skill there and it is a unique niche build. Whereas any normal stamina build has more damage, survivability, and mobility than a normal magicka class build. My point was many of the top players promote stamina builds. Jeeze, I wonder why.
It's a fact that stamina builds who min max damage can hit harder than magicka builds. It's a fact that stamina builds can dodge roll more than a magicka build. Do you deny those facts? Couple dodge rolling with shuffle and crazy good medium amor sets like crusader and you have insane mobility and survivability. Do you deny any of this? What do you think a mageblade can do to compete with that kind of mobility and damage? Cloak away? Stand around and spam healing ward? Rely on heal dots while trying to cloak away? There really is no arguement here. Stamina builds got buffed this patch and the pendulum has swung the other way. Wrobel is bipolar every patch.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South2 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭Justice31st wrote: »Magicka builds need a dodge roll based off of Magicka.
Id take this one set further. If the cc is caused by a magical attack it should use magic to break free.
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Paraflex✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.
I think you missed the main point vigor/shuffle/major healing buffs can be slotted on any bar or a main dps bar rally has to be slotted on the 2h bar. He was pointing our that resto staff skills in general put you at a disadvantage because usually this is your back bar in the game and will overall do significantly less dps overall.
There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
Current meta favors stam builds in every way except BOL, Mistform (newly buffed), Healing ward (great but who the hell kills you with a resto staff?!?!?!)
Stam is favored in most situations @The_Outsider
You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 onHollykills CP 630 Templar Healer - Ad PS4 Warlord Rank
Max Stam/Mag Dk
Max Stam Sorc
Max Stam/Mag NB
Don't care to dps much so I heal.0 -
Paraflex✭✭✭✭
Bruh healing OP you didn't know.Those heavy restro attackd hit hard lol but fair point.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.WreckfulAbandon wrote: »So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:
"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."
So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?
Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless
In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.
And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.
Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.
I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me
Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.
You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.
Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....
I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.
Guess you haven't been watching fengrush or krotha lately in large scale pvp. Those guys dodge roll and run right into the thick of battle with awesome mobility and damage casting vigor like a champ and bouncing from enemy to enemy with stampede/crit charge. Granted they have help and use a lot of tools but it highlight the power of dodge rolling, vigor, and damage output of two handers with wb animation canceling. If I tried doing that on my mageblade I would be dead in 2 seconds. We don't have the mobility. And no I don't want to be forced to use alchemist, proxy det, and vicious death just to do the single target and aoe damage they can do with dawn breaker and reverse slice from a two hander and benefits of medium armor.
Those are reallllly good players.... I don't mean to be harsh but if you tried doing what they do with stamina toons, you'd be dead in about 2 seconds too.... I've seen enough magblades blow up a full group in about 2 seconds too. But you don't see me claiming mageblade op....
1vX only works when you are fighting potatoes.... You could name any goody guild from Khole to invictus and arcane and these guys would tear out 1vXers in about 2 seconds....be it stamina or magicka...
Lol you don't know me or my skill. Assume that I would die in 2 seconds using stamina. Should I convert my magicka sorc to stamina and run fengrush build and post a video to prove you wrong?
What you have seen are bombblades blow up groups. Any semean schmuckatelly can put on alchemist, vicious death, proxy det, and jump into a crowd and blow people up. No skill there and it is a unique niche build. Whereas any normal stamina build has more damage, survivability, and mobility than a normal magicka class build. My point was many of the top players promote stamina builds. Jeeze, I wonder why.
It's a fact that stamina builds who min max damage can hit harder than magicka builds. It's a fact that stamina builds can dodge roll more than a magicka build. Do you deny those facts? Couple dodge rolling with shuffle and crazy good medium amor sets like crusader and you have insane mobility and survivability. Do you deny any of this? What do you think a mageblade can do to compete with that kind of mobility and damage? Cloak away? Stand around and spam healing ward? Rely on heal dots while trying to cloak away? There really is no arguement here. Stamina builds got buffed this patch and the pendulum has swung the other way. Wrobel is bipolar every patch.
My favorite part "Stamina builds got buffed this patch and the pendulum has swung the other way. Wrobel is bipolar every patch.[/quote]"
It's true maybe @Wrobel is trying to balance it in big swings but atleast he is trying!!! Its not a perfect science I'm sure but we can all complain on the forums about it till he gets it right or close I hope. Good Luck WrobelHollykills CP 630 Templar Healer - Ad PS4 Warlord Rank
Max Stam/Mag Dk
Max Stam Sorc
Max Stam/Mag NB
Don't care to dps much so I heal.0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.
I think you missed the main point vigor/shuffle/major healing buffs can be slotted on any bar or a main dps bar rally has to be slotted on the 2h bar. He was pointing our that resto staff skills in general put you at a disadvantage because usually this is your back bar in the game and will overall do significantly less dps overall.
There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
Current meta favors stam builds in every way except BOL, Mistform (newly buffed), Healing ward (great but who the hell kills you with a resto staff?!?!?!)
Stam is favored in most situations @The_Outsider
You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Each paragraph was a direct rebuttal to the statements I bolded in his comment. Re-read his comment, and then mine in context. He compares healing ward (which yes, is locked to back bar), to every single skill that a stamina build has access to for survivability. Like I pointed out, his comment is silly because Rally, a key skill in stamina healing, like you said, IS locked to one weapon bar. Just like healing ward.
...Of course not. Because you've compared 1 weapon line with an alliance war skill, a 2h skill, a medium armor skill, and a buff that 2 stam classes have access to... Try combining the resto tree with annulment/Class heals/Mistform/Purge/Major Mending/Shuffle(yes)/Class shield/ect.There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
50% of stamin builds have Major mending. Not 99%.You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Think for a minute why that is...No shields scaling with max stat. No weapon line dedicated to healing. No burst healing (unless you want to count Rally after 15-20 seconds?). Leaving us with...2 HoTs, a dodge chance buff, and roll dodging. It's the only viable defense or survivability mechanism that any stamina build has.
@Paraflex , Stamina builds were not buffed in DB. We were brought up to par with what magicka builds have had since the games release.Edited by kadar on June 26, 2016 3:16AM2 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.
I think you missed the main point vigor/shuffle/major healing buffs can be slotted on any bar or a main dps bar rally has to be slotted on the 2h bar. He was pointing our that resto staff skills in general put you at a disadvantage because usually this is your back bar in the game and will overall do significantly less dps overall.
There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
Current meta favors stam builds in every way except BOL, Mistform (newly buffed), Healing ward (great but who the hell kills you with a resto staff?!?!?!)
Stam is favored in most situations @The_Outsider
You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Each paragraph was a direct rebuttal to the statements I bolded in his comment. Re-read his comment, and then mine in context. He compares healing ward (which yes, is locked to back bar), to every single skill that a stamina build has access to for survivability. Like I pointed out, his comment is silly because Rally, a key skill in stamina healing, like you said, IS locked to one weapon bar. Just like healing ward.
...Of course not. Because you've compared 1 weapon line with an alliance war skill, a 2h skill, a medium armor skill, and a buff that 2 stam classes have access to... Try combining the resto tree with annulment/Class heals/Mistform/Purge/Major Mending/Shuffle(yes)/Class shield/ect.There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
50% of stamin builds have Major mending. Not 99%.You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Think for a minute why that is...No shields scaling with max stat. No weapon line dedicated to healing. No burst healing (unless you want to count Rally after 15-20 seconds?). Leaving us with...2 HoTs, a dodge chance buff, and roll dodging. It's the only viable defense or survivability mechanism that any stamina build has.
@Paraflex , Stamina builds were not buffed in DB. We were brought up to par with what magicka builds have had since the games release.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. The game is all about damage and mobility right now and stamina is holding the aces in both of those areas, VD cheese aside (and VD is not nearly as good in small scale which is what I'm talking about).
There is a convergence where survivability is helped (and often decided) by the ability to apply pressure. Which the builds with more damage and mobility are able to do more effectively. Being able to pick and choose what hits them allows stamina users to duck the big shots that magicka would have to shield or heal thru. Or kite when necessary. Avoiding a hit is more effective than absorbing it 99% of the time. Sure I can CC break and BoL/healing ward after a big hit/knockdown but thats at least one GCD extra I could have if I'd dodged it instead. Small advantages like this decide battles. Simply put stamina has the initiative in combat right now, they have tempo. At least in small scale.
TL;DR:
Stamina arguably has better survivability and we can all agree (I think) stamina has the edge in mobility and dmg. Of course this is merely my opinion and pretty much solely directed at small scale play.
Edited by WreckfulAbandon on June 26, 2016 4:01AMPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Nerf Rally. I don't mind. I use Forward Momentum anyway.
If i hadnt 1v1 you i would call you crazy. but you are strong with the sneaky sneaky so i buy this. One Problem. I cant cloak my dk. I gotta stand there and take the hits, no burst heal if rally gets nerfed. Id be so reliant on a pocket healer or wrobel the destroyer fixing dragonsblood to even survive.
You think im strong, why thank you sir! For once i get a little appreciation for having a none meta build. I honestly dont remember you. I do sneaky sneaky though
I agree dragonblood needs some help. Rally could use a nerf in my opinion. Dks should have dragon blood, nb cloak crit heals, templars have purges and stamsorc has mobility plus surge.
We will see. This coming monday will have crazy stuff. Racial changes too!Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on June 26, 2016 9:26AMPS4 NA DC0 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Someone said vigor cost is too low and stam players can just dodge roll a few times while vigor is ticking to get full heal back, forget that dodge rolls also cost, and even cost more if you do it repeatedly. A stam build dodge roll so you can't touch his health bar while healing up is the same with a mag build cast shield so you can't touch his health bar while he's healing up. There is no cost increase for spam shield, but you can be cc, while rolling has increase cost, but can avoid most cc. A dodge rolling players can dodge all attacks coming, but cannot attack either. While a shielded player though still have to take all the hit, but also can attack back. Some skill hit thru dodge roll, while shield avoid crit. Stam build have Shuffle, while Mag build have shield scale off magicka. Both have pros and cons.Edited by TheDarkShadow on June 26, 2016 6:12PM3 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Mmm. Sadly, ESO is not balanced around small scale, and probably never will be. It's the price we pay for playing a game based around large scale PVP (and PVE).WreckfulAbandon wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.
I think you missed the main point vigor/shuffle/major healing buffs can be slotted on any bar or a main dps bar rally has to be slotted on the 2h bar. He was pointing our that resto staff skills in general put you at a disadvantage because usually this is your back bar in the game and will overall do significantly less dps overall.
There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
Current meta favors stam builds in every way except BOL, Mistform (newly buffed), Healing ward (great but who the hell kills you with a resto staff?!?!?!)
Stam is favored in most situations @The_Outsider
You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Each paragraph was a direct rebuttal to the statements I bolded in his comment. Re-read his comment, and then mine in context. He compares healing ward (which yes, is locked to back bar), to every single skill that a stamina build has access to for survivability. Like I pointed out, his comment is silly because Rally, a key skill in stamina healing, like you said, IS locked to one weapon bar. Just like healing ward.
...Of course not. Because you've compared 1 weapon line with an alliance war skill, a 2h skill, a medium armor skill, and a buff that 2 stam classes have access to... Try combining the resto tree with annulment/Class heals/Mistform/Purge/Major Mending/Shuffle(yes)/Class shield/ect.There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
50% of stamin builds have Major mending. Not 99%.You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Think for a minute why that is...No shields scaling with max stat. No weapon line dedicated to healing. No burst healing (unless you want to count Rally after 15-20 seconds?). Leaving us with...2 HoTs, a dodge chance buff, and roll dodging. It's the only viable defense or survivability mechanism that any stamina build has.
@Paraflex , Stamina builds were not buffed in DB. We were brought up to par with what magicka builds have had since the games release.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. The game is all about damage and mobility right now and stamina is holding the aces in both of those areas, VD cheese aside (and VD is not nearly as good in small scale which is what I'm talking about).
There is a convergence where survivability is helped (and often decided) by the ability to apply pressure. Which the builds with more damage and mobility are able to do more effectively. Being able to pick and choose what hits them allows stamina users to duck the big shots that magicka would have to shield or heal thru. Or kite when necessary. Avoiding a hit is more effective than absorbing it 99% of the time. Sure I can CC break and BoL/healing ward after a big hit/knockdown but thats at least one GCD extra I could have if I'd dodged it instead. Small advantages like this decide battles. Simply put stamina has the initiative in combat right now, they have tempo. At least in small scale.
TL;DR:
Stamina arguably has better survivability and we can all agree (I think) stamina has the edge in mobility and dmg. Of course this is merely my opinion and pretty much solely directed at small scale play.
Mobility tools are somewhat negated by a gap closer-spam meta, or ranged play (kiting is not a thing in ESO sadly, as any dedicated ranged build will tell you).
I agree and understand the importance of pressure in deciding the victor of an engagement. And frankly both build types now have tools to accomplish max damage and some measure of survivability simultaneously. These are the strongest things in ESO right now. The aggressor has the initiative and sets the tempo for the fight. Tempo and control, have nothing to do with which resource you pull damage from, and everything to do with your ability to keep pressure on the opponent, whether it's with Streak > Cfrag, Prox > Sweeps spam, fear > Incap, or Fossilize > WB.
Concerning my last statement: After DB, stamina has ultimates that scale with CP, passives that now work with stamina AND magicka, a guild skill line to mirror the mages guild. Magicka has had access to these advantages since the beginning. Sure it sucks when builds we don't play get stronger. We should not be against changes so plainly made in the name of balance.
Of course, this whole Magicka vs. Stamina debate is almost always simply a difference in perspective I suppose. Some attempt a less biased view of balance and others refuse. When we objectively analyse the tools that each build type has, I don't believe the difference to be very significant at all.
(PS sorry for text wall, the above could be a tldr, I guess) 1 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »
Mmm. Sadly, ESO is not balanced around small scale, and probably never will be. It's the price we pay for playing a game based around large scale PVP (and PVE).WreckfulAbandon wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »The_Outsider wrote: »
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.Lava_Croft wrote: »
2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.Lava_Croft wrote: »
Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.Lava_Croft wrote: »Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.
#JustWrobelThings
Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.
When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.
ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.
You said this very well I agree with you
That was certainly not said very well. He's comparing one Magicka skill (healing ward) to the entire possible survivability toolkit of a hypothetical stamina build. That is not a valid comparison. If you make stamina vs. magicka comparisons, at least attempt to be less biased (e.g. Vigor/Rally/Shuffle vs. BoL/Ward/Mistform).
Arguing that you are forced to run Ward on back bar is not valid either, since stamina builds are equally pigeon-holed into running Rally on their back bar. Just as not everyone runs Inferno staff as their main bar, not everyone runs 2H.
"...not subjected to weapon swap." Stamina builds don't have to weapon swap now? Because there is lag, Stamina builds have an advantage over Magicka builds? I'd argue the opposite: much stamina defense depends on roll dodging/blocking, both of which are active defenses nearly impossible in bad lag.
"...6k weapon damage [with vigor and rally on your front bar]." There is no need to exaggerate numbers in the favor of your point.
I think you missed the main point vigor/shuffle/major healing buffs can be slotted on any bar or a main dps bar rally has to be slotted on the 2h bar. He was pointing our that resto staff skills in general put you at a disadvantage because usually this is your back bar in the game and will overall do significantly less dps overall.
There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
Current meta favors stam builds in every way except BOL, Mistform (newly buffed), Healing ward (great but who the hell kills you with a resto staff?!?!?!)
Stam is favored in most situations @The_Outsider
You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Each paragraph was a direct rebuttal to the statements I bolded in his comment. Re-read his comment, and then mine in context. He compares healing ward (which yes, is locked to back bar), to every single skill that a stamina build has access to for survivability. Like I pointed out, his comment is silly because Rally, a key skill in stamina healing, like you said, IS locked to one weapon bar. Just like healing ward.
...Of course not. Because you've compared 1 weapon line with an alliance war skill, a 2h skill, a medium armor skill, and a buff that 2 stam classes have access to... Try combining the resto tree with annulment/Class heals/Mistform/Purge/Major Mending/Shuffle(yes)/Class shield/ect.There is no way resto main or 2nd bar will come close to a vigor/rally/shuffle/major mending stam build buff combo
50% of stamin builds have Major mending. Not 99%.You should check the hypothetical stam builds that people run in game and post because 99% have vigor/rally/shuffle/major mening would be 50/50 on
Think for a minute why that is...No shields scaling with max stat. No weapon line dedicated to healing. No burst healing (unless you want to count Rally after 15-20 seconds?). Leaving us with...2 HoTs, a dodge chance buff, and roll dodging. It's the only viable defense or survivability mechanism that any stamina build has.
@Paraflex , Stamina builds were not buffed in DB. We were brought up to par with what magicka builds have had since the games release.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. The game is all about damage and mobility right now and stamina is holding the aces in both of those areas, VD cheese aside (and VD is not nearly as good in small scale which is what I'm talking about).
There is a convergence where survivability is helped (and often decided) by the ability to apply pressure. Which the builds with more damage and mobility are able to do more effectively. Being able to pick and choose what hits them allows stamina users to duck the big shots that magicka would have to shield or heal thru. Or kite when necessary. Avoiding a hit is more effective than absorbing it 99% of the time. Sure I can CC break and BoL/healing ward after a big hit/knockdown but thats at least one GCD extra I could have if I'd dodged it instead. Small advantages like this decide battles. Simply put stamina has the initiative in combat right now, they have tempo. At least in small scale.
TL;DR:
Stamina arguably has better survivability and we can all agree (I think) stamina has the edge in mobility and dmg. Of course this is merely my opinion and pretty much solely directed at small scale play.
Mobility tools are somewhat negated by a gap closer-spam meta, or ranged play (kiting is not a thing in ESO sadly, as any dedicated ranged build will tell you).
I agree and understand the importance of pressure in deciding the victor of an engagement. And frankly both build types now have tools to accomplish max damage and some measure of survivability simultaneously. These are the strongest things in ESO right now. The aggressor has the initiative and sets the tempo for the fight. Tempo and control, have nothing to do with which resource you pull damage from, and everything to do with your ability to keep pressure on the opponent, whether it's with Streak > Cfrag, Prox > Sweeps spam, fear > Incap, or Fossilize > WB.
Concerning my last statement: After DB, stamina has ultimates that scale with CP, passives that now work with stamina AND magicka, a guild skill line to mirror the mages guild. Magicka has had access to these advantages since the beginning. Sure it sucks when builds we don't play get stronger. We should not be against changes so plainly made in the name of balance.
Of course, this whole Magicka vs. Stamina debate is almost always simply a difference in perspective I suppose. Some attempt a less biased view of balance and others refuse. When we objectively analyse the tools that each build type has, I don't believe the difference to be very significant at all.
(PS sorry for text wall, the above could be a tldr, I guess)
Things are definitely more balanced than they have been in the past. Cause I played a melee stamDK at launch and that was just painful. I think a tweak to how dodge works might be all that is needed. In the meantime I will continue to adapt my play. And dump points into Hardy ☺PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.
1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.
2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.
3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.
4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.
I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.
Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.
1.) Nope no changes needed it's fine you might be getting unlucky with proccs.
2.) Nope its a HOT if you do that then BoL and healing ward needs a 2x cost increase.
3.) Leave as is although other skills should function like rally.
4.) Dodge roll aready got nerfed it doesn't need any further changes
5.) Incap also got nerfed(4.5% reduced to base dmg) its a single target skill it HAS to hit hard and yet FDB does more dmg in addtion to being and AoE and giving 5% WD.
With that logic increase the cost of Overload since it cost 64 ultimate(mag sorc) and it cam be used repeatedly for high dmg(11K + crits)Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.
Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.
Stamina builds can, or roll dodge, or block efficietly. Magicka builds only can block since the cost of dodge roll is prohibitive and any CC after a roll dodge is a death sentence.
Magicka builds need to look at their resources as much as stam builds
You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam poolEdited by Anti_Virus on June 27, 2016 11:06PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.
1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.
2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.
3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.
4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.
I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.
Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.
1.) Nope no changes needed it's fine you might be getting unlucky with proccs.
2.) Nope its a HOT if you do that then BoL and healing ward needs a 2x cost increase.
3.) Leave as is although other skills should function like rally.
4.) Dodge roll aready got nerfed it doesn't need any further changes
5.) Incap also got nerfed(4.5% reduced to base dmg) its a single target skill it HAS to hit hard and yet FDB does more dmg in addtion to being and AoE and giving 5% WD.
With that logic increase the cost of Overload since it cost 64 ultimate(mag sorc) and it cam be used repeatedly for high dmg(11K + crits)
The thing about healing Ward is it's unreliable if your opponent gets through the bubble you don't get any heal. rally is kind of op also cause along with the heal you get a 20% damage increase that you don't need a target for. Medium armor is alot better than light armor as well. also stamina abilities are cheaper to cast but hit harder than magicka abilities. I still don't understand this one. Stamina is so much better than magicka right now especially since roll dodge negates all damage and you can also use it go get line of sight. If you are magicka and you find yourself in a bad situation you basically have to stack shields and sprint to cover and hope you don't get hit in the back by that zerg sorc hard casting crystal frags at you0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭thankyourat wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.
1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.
2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.
3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.
4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.
I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.
Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.
1.) Nope no changes needed it's fine you might be getting unlucky with proccs.
2.) Nope its a HOT if you do that then BoL and healing ward needs a 2x cost increase.
3.) Leave as is although other skills should function like rally.
4.) Dodge roll aready got nerfed it doesn't need any further changes
5.) Incap also got nerfed(4.5% reduced to base dmg) its a single target skill it HAS to hit hard and yet FDB does more dmg in addtion to being and AoE and giving 5% WD.
With that logic increase the cost of Overload since it cost 64 ultimate(mag sorc) and it cam be used repeatedly for high dmg(11K + crits)
The thing about healing Ward is it's unreliable if your opponent gets through the bubble you don't get any heal. rally is kind of op also cause along with the heal you get a 20% damage increase that you don't need a target for. Medium armor is alot better than light armor as well. also stamina abilities are cheaper to cast but hit harder than magicka abilities. I still don't understand this one. Stamina is so much better than magicka right now especially since roll dodge negates all damage and you can also use it go get line of sight. If you are magicka and you find yourself in a bad situation you basically have to stack shields and sprint to cover and hope you don't get hit in the back by that zerg sorc hard casting crystal frags at you
yeah, its pretty bad. the things I have seen pulled off make me feel bad to be maining a stamina build.
0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.
1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.
2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.
3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.
4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.
I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.
Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.
1.) Nope no changes needed it's fine you might be getting unlucky with proccs.
2.) Nope its a HOT if you do that then BoL and healing ward needs a 2x cost increase.
3.) Leave as is although other skills should function like rally.
4.) Dodge roll aready got nerfed it doesn't need any further changes
5.) Incap also got nerfed(4.5% reduced to base dmg) its a single target skill it HAS to hit hard and yet FDB does more dmg in addtion to being and AoE and giving 5% WD.
With that logic increase the cost of Overload since it cost 64 ultimate(mag sorc) and it cam be used repeatedly for high dmg(11K + crits)
The thing about healing Ward is it's unreliable if your opponent gets through the bubble you don't get any heal. rally is kind of op also cause along with the heal you get a 20% damage increase that you don't need a target for. Medium armor is alot better than light armor as well. also stamina abilities are cheaper to cast but hit harder than magicka abilities. I still don't understand this one. Stamina is so much better than magicka right now especially since roll dodge negates all damage and you can also use it go get line of sight. If you are magicka and you find yourself in a bad situation you basically have to stack shields and sprint to cover and hope you don't get hit in the back by that zerg sorc hard casting crystal frags at you
Yeah I agree with you on healing ward... if you're talking about using that shield without stacking it. But most people stack it anyways so all you need to to is.
Apply healing ward.
Apply harness magicka (everyone has this)
If sorc apply Harden ward and harness over healing ward
Wait 6 secs for the heal
If your first shield drop just spam reapply until heal goes off there's no punishment to do it.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »thankyourat wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.
1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.
2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.
3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.
4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.
I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.
Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.
1.) Nope no changes needed it's fine you might be getting unlucky with proccs.
2.) Nope its a HOT if you do that then BoL and healing ward needs a 2x cost increase.
3.) Leave as is although other skills should function like rally.
4.) Dodge roll aready got nerfed it doesn't need any further changes
5.) Incap also got nerfed(4.5% reduced to base dmg) its a single target skill it HAS to hit hard and yet FDB does more dmg in addtion to being and AoE and giving 5% WD.
With that logic increase the cost of Overload since it cost 64 ultimate(mag sorc) and it cam be used repeatedly for high dmg(11K + crits)
The thing about healing Ward is it's unreliable if your opponent gets through the bubble you don't get any heal. rally is kind of op also cause along with the heal you get a 20% damage increase that you don't need a target for. Medium armor is alot better than light armor as well. also stamina abilities are cheaper to cast but hit harder than magicka abilities. I still don't understand this one. Stamina is so much better than magicka right now especially since roll dodge negates all damage and you can also use it go get line of sight. If you are magicka and you find yourself in a bad situation you basically have to stack shields and sprint to cover and hope you don't get hit in the back by that zerg sorc hard casting crystal frags at you
Yeah I agree with you on healing ward... if you're talking about using that shield without stacking it. But most people stack it anyways so all you need to to is.
Apply healing ward.
Apply harness magicka (everyone has this)
If sorc apply Harden ward and harness over healing ward
Wait 6 secs for the heal
If your first shield drop just spam reapply until heal goes off there's no punishment to do it.
You forgot one thing... Sometimes a friend or even a pug gets your healing ward, which can and will get you killed.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.
Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.
Stamina builds can, or roll dodge, or block efficietly. Magicka builds only can block since the cost of dodge roll is prohibitive and any CC after a roll dodge is a death sentence.
Magicka builds need to look at their resources as much as stam builds
You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool
This doesn't work any more. About 80% one CC and your dead on a sorc. Also once you go defensive its very difficult to get back to offensive with the way shields work and the increase in damage.0 -
tist✭✭✭@ShadowStarKingYou shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool
This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.3 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭But I feel like getting stabbed should hurt more than fairy dust getting thrown at you.
But you're playing a tolkein-esque fantasy game not a medieval warfare sim, so why the disregard for magic? Did gandalf use fairy dust?
I've always subscribed to the theory that stam should hit harder due to being (mostly) melee range. Magic is (mostly) ranged, so technically less risky. I can't justify this theory any more; the waters have been muddied. High damage gap closers negate the "low risk" magicka theory imo.PC | EU4 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ShadowStarKingYou shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool
This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.
Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:
Stam - hit hard with less survivability
Magic - hit less hard with high survivability
Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling
Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.
Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge
Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.
Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.
Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »But I feel like getting stabbed should hurt more than fairy dust getting thrown at you.
But you're playing a tolkein-esque fantasy game not a medieval warfare sim, so why the disregard for magic? Did gandalf use fairy dust?
I've always subscribed to the theory that stam should hit harder due to being (mostly) melee range. Magic is (mostly) ranged, so technically less risky. I can't justify this theory any more; the waters have been muddied. High damage gap closers negate the "low risk" magicka theory imo.
Stam builds are exclusively melee since the bow skill line sucks for ranged dps.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
tist✭✭✭@ShadowStarKing
I agree shields are strong and have benefits such as avoiding crits but keep in mind against heavy pressure we are most often sitting in mines spamming ward until we get a moment to attack.. which only lasts a few seconds. Also, random fears or CC'd are bound to happen while spamming ward.
Stamina on the other hand has HOTs rolling, evasion, roll dodge (if you roll dodge on magicka often you will die), more mitigation, and better burst damage.0 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ShadowStarKing
I agree shields are strong and have benefits such as avoiding crits but keep in mind against heavy pressure we are most often sitting in mines spamming ward until we get a moment to attack.. which only lasts a few seconds. Also, random fears or CC'd are bound to happen while spamming ward.
Stamina on the other hand has HOTs rolling, evasion, roll dodge (if you roll dodge on magicka often you will die), more mitigation, and better burst damage.
People weren't/probably still aren't soloing vet dungeons, Molag Bal or old strength flag bosses on stamina builds, magicka builds have a vivid history with those types of feats.
In PvP Magicka Sorcs still aren't anywhere near as weak as magicka NB, to be honest not much has really changed. Magicka NB is a nightmare to play open-world solo, decent in a 1v1 and group maybe. The world of Wrobel snares, roots and getting locked out of doing anything while people gap close you.
Magicka Sorc is still quite dangerous 1v1 and in small groups. Most people aren't stacking all into elemental defender, like they used to pre hardy change. It can still be quite daunting to deal with a mine camping Sorc these days, but I feel like I can enter a fight without wishing I had a stupid set like shield-breaker on.Edited by OdinForge on June 28, 2016 1:58PMThe Age of Wrobel.0
