Let's talk about Stamina builds

melloni_aleb16_ESO

i don't think that the problem is a roll dodges or shuffle .. . I have almost all chars stamina , and more roll dodges matches a low w.damage ...having an equip with many well-fitted and not impenetrable , also many turn in heavy , roll a few dodges.
Roll dodges/shuffle and vigor is the only way to stay alive, It can be annoying as a Magicka NB that using 7 Healing -Ward before being killed with executioner
Surely , it would be discussed on the damage stamina ( Dawnbreaker have a insane damage , but is also an example ) etc etc ..

Said this , magicka char has a magicka shield ( and they aren't weak as you are told ) , stamina char has a R-dodges , if you can do 3-4 r-dodges ( as the maximum in a fight ) , you destroy a stamina dps char

then if someone loses in 4 vs 1 character stamina ..the problem is for the " four "



my 2 cent and sorry for my bad english !

kaithuzar

My problem is that Magicka classes CAN NOT 1 shot you, Stamina classes CAN.
Therefore, if a magic user gets a CC on you, it's not like you're going to die instantly. You will take 1 attack, & dodge roll or pop shuffle & whatever other attacks get thrown at you will completely miss. Allowing you to pop 9k rally ticks until full health.

Stamina heals just don't make sense regardless of what crappy lore was explained; but it seems like the heals are superior to resto staff.

If stamina users can heal without a resto staff why can magicka users not? There needs to be a magicka based heal which does not require a resto staff & does not suck.
While we're on the topic, the real problem in my opinion is DK's & Templar's having major mending & Nightblades & Sorc's getting shafted on that.

P.S. My argument against increase cost of incapacitating strike is that impale/killers blade doesn't happen until maybe 25%~ish
where other ultimates cough cough radiant destruction cough, can be spammed while you're at 50%. So yea...If you wanted to up soul harvest ult cost I can deal with from 50 to 60, 70, maybe 80, 100 & above is a little too much imo

kadar

Something about this thread I find interesting: People have such different opinions about what they consider "easy." If a person plays Magicka they consider the defenses of Stamina "easy" to do. If Stamina they consider shields "easy."

On my Stamina NB, I use five skills + roll dodge (no, I can't spam it) to achieve an effective level of survivability. Said skills must be refreshed regularly (vigor, cloak) and animation cancelled to even have time to apply them all in the heat of battle. I do not consider this easy... But I'm sure the Magcika Sorc standing in once place pressing Ward 7 times in a row doesn't consider what he is doing easy either, so... /shrug

Concerning those filthy players running drinks and seem like the can spam roll dodge, my new favorite thing is DBOS. Apply a small amount a pressure, take them to 60% health or so. This is when most immediately roll dodge to get away and vigor/shuffle/whatever. Mid-roll, SMITE them. They should now be under 25% health and knocked down, tap an excecute, collect AP.

tist

@The_Outsider
Everyone will be a little biased based on what they play or main. I actually think shield survivability is easier compared to stamina but not as effective. Stamina class who can actively dodge, keep vigor rolling and keep pressure are very scary in comparison.

bardx86

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

tist wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing

You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool

This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.

Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:

Stam - hit hard with less survivability

Magic - hit less hard with high survivability

Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling

Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.

Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge

Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.

Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.

Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.

This is incorrect shields only mitigate 10-12k Thats 2 hits or less from one person what about 10 people?. Dodge role avoids 100% of damage against any number of people it could be 100k damage mitigation with one role. Not even close in comparison. Shields don not scale anywhere near as good as dodge role, vigor, and rally in 1vX.

bardx86

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Skitttles wrote: »

But I feel like getting stabbed should hurt more than fairy dust getting thrown at you.

But you're playing a tolkein-esque fantasy game not a medieval warfare sim, so why the disregard for magic? Did gandalf use fairy dust?

I've always subscribed to the theory that stam should hit harder due to being (mostly) melee range. Magic is (mostly) ranged, so technically less risky. I can't justify this theory any more; the waters have been muddied. High damage gap closers negate the "low risk" magicka theory imo.

I never understood this. How is a NB in armor with a dagger standing next to a sorc in a dress at anymore risk? Who's really is at more risk at that moment? If we want to take this approach maybe magic should be strong the closer to the caster you get?

Anti_Virus

bardx86 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

tist wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing

You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool

This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.

Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:

Stam - hit hard with less survivability

Magic - hit less hard with high survivability

Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling

Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.

Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge

Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.

Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.

Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.

This is incorrect shields only mitigate 10-12k Thats 2 hits or less from one person what about 10 people?. Dodge role avoids 100% of damage against any number of people it could be 100k damage mitigation with one role. Not even close in comparison. Shields don not scale anywhere near as good as dodge role, vigor, and rally in 1vX.

Nope. If you have a shield active you absorbs ALL incoming dmg. If you dodge roll you're still suspectable to AoE attacks and blocking only mitigates 80% of dmg if you refuse you curse them or use an AoE then thats on you. If I want to beat a shield stacker I have to wear a 5 piece set and Light attack.

With shields you can spam reapply it with no punishment it's not like there's a cost increase for using it withing 4 secs.....

On the flip side if I roll continously I run out of stam even if I went for a full sustain build so Magic still has the upper hand in defense and healing. Infact you have an entire skill tree for healing.

If you don't want to use a resto that's fine each class has self healing in their tree:

NB- swallowed soul, refreshing path, sap essence

Dk - buring ember, draw essence

Temp - restoring ligh skill line

Sorc - surge (kinda meh but it's meant as a side heal), restoring twilight, clanfear and blood magic passives

Are some of these heals viable? Nope. But you have way more options with survivability than the typical 2h an bow vigor builds.

Not every stam build uses a 2h or shuffle but we all HAVE to use vigor as a heal.

vpadget9592b14_ESO

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

Lol. When you Dodge roll you cannot attack? How about Eternal Hunt armor I run on my Endless dodge roll wood elf smacking for 9k a pop...fun times..fun times...

vpadget9592b14_ESO

melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »

i don't think that the problem is a roll dodges or shuffle .. . I have almost all chars stamina , and more roll dodges matches a low w.damage ...having an equip with many well-fitted and not impenetrable , also many turn in heavy , roll a few dodges.
Roll dodges/shuffle and vigor is the only way to stay alive, It can be annoying as a Magicka NB that using 7 Healing -Ward before being killed with executioner
Surely , it would be discussed on the damage stamina ( Dawnbreaker have a insane damage , but is also an example ) etc etc ..

Said this , magicka char has a magicka shield ( and they aren't weak as you are told ) , stamina char has a R-dodges , if you can do 3-4 r-dodges ( as the maximum in a fight ) , you destroy a stamina dps char

then if someone loses in 4 vs 1 character stamina ..the problem is for the " four "



my 2 cent and sorry for my bad english !

Losing weapon damage is not that critical to over all damage anymore. Add a two handed Maelstrom weapon and charge someone, first hitting with venom and won't be long after you will drop someone....oh and we are going to add an amazing exec to that? Oh there's more??!! Dodge roll away with hots that bring you to full in secs if someone happens to tag you through your evasion??!! There's MORE? TELL ME IT ISNT SO. You can then repeat this to another victim right after that roll??!! Wait....there's MORE ???!!!!! If he doesn't drop your going to drop an improved dawn breaker that knocks em on there ass like uppercut use to??!!! So then you can spank them with more DPS?? Omg. ..I'm in love. We can't fix the game so let's force everyone to play Stam builds so the programmers can face out magic attack is making there job easier. Matter of fact let's make one faction and everything else mobs? Yes yes. Pve only wooohooooo. Have the devs ever played the game? Or do they just play Stam builds and laugh at those trying to keep a 6 second shield on while riding a horse and taking 30k snipe spam damage before there body hits the ground and sound card catches up 5 arrows later....Thankfully I play a blazing Shield Templar and sit in chairs on bridges all day praying a noob with high testosterone spams his newly won Maelstrom weapon on me and I watch his life goto half in 1.2 secs...enjoy that Stam love patch. One day ESO will come to an end and everyone will have two handed main and bow back bar...and we will all have same bars and outfits and will look like every ridiculously non creative mmorpg from Asia that has ever been made...except I doubt zos will give us flying unicorns anytime soon. Unless they run short of money.

kaithuzar

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

tist wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing

You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool

This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.

Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:

Stam - hit hard with less survivability

Magic - hit less hard with high survivability

Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling

Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.

Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge

Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.

Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.

Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.

This is incorrect shields only mitigate 10-12k Thats 2 hits or less from one person what about 10 people?. Dodge role avoids 100% of damage against any number of people it could be 100k damage mitigation with one role. Not even close in comparison. Shields don not scale anywhere near as good as dodge role, vigor, and rally in 1vX.

Nope. If you have a shield active you absorbs ALL incoming dmg. If you dodge roll you're still suspectable to AoE attacks and blocking only mitigates 80% of dmg if you refuse you curse them or use an AoE then thats on you. If I want to beat a shield stacker I have to wear a 5 piece set and Light attack.

With shields you can spam reapply it with no punishment it's not like there's a cost increase for using it withing 4 secs.....

On the flip side if I roll continously I run out of stam even if I went for a full sustain build so Magic still has the upper hand in defense and healing. Infact you have an entire skill tree for healing.

If you don't want to use a resto that's fine each class has self healing in their tree:

NB- swallowed soul, refreshing path, sap essence

Dk - buring ember, draw essence

Temp - restoring ligh skill line

Sorc - surge (kinda meh but it's meant as a side heal), restoring twilight, clanfear and blood magic passives

Are some of these heals viable? Nope. But you have way more options with survivability than the typical 2h an bow vigor builds.

Not every stam build uses a 2h or shuffle but we all HAVE to use vigor as a heal.

COMPLETELY WRONG!
Sure magic builds can spam shields but how much time does it buy us before we run out of resources & get zerged down???
When you are standing in one place spamming shields you have 0 chance of getting away, where a roll dodger may actually get away from his attacker(s). Tell me more about how I have high survivability as a magic nightblade when cloak is broken...

Also your statement about a shield absorbing all incoming damage is wrong too, if you have a shield for 10k & are hit with 15k dizzying swing then you're still taking 5k of damage bud.
If you want to beat a shield stacker you have 2 viable options (neither of which you guessed):
1) shield breaker - set is still OP & as someone who occasionally uses shields (because it does help) I'm continuously trying to find away to beat this set.
2) champion tree, middle blue one, "shattering blows" - deal more damage to targets with shields

Is that really so hard? QQ moar about how you can't take someone down with a shield.

If you roll continuously you run outta stam with a full sustain build???? TRY IT, this is 100% false, I know people rocking 3k+ stam recovery & they can still infinite dodge roll.

The problem with all of those heals you listed is "THEY ARE ALL CLASS HEALS THAT SUCK AT HEALING" (except templar)
The point we're trying to make is "I WANT A GOOD HEAL WITHOUT A RESTO STAFF", you guys got one, we don't; end of discussion either you get it or you don't.

PurifedBladez

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Hollykills V16 Templar Healer

We should definitely take into account the opinion of a guy whose sole class is a magicka templar healer on changes to stamina.

Yeah because the bias isn't obvious.

1) Shuffle, people have been saying this isn't 20% for a while, but until this day i have not seen a video that proves this.

2) Vigor, it's a heal over time, not and instant 14k heal like BoL can be. It's easily countered by reducing healing or putting a few dots on a person.

3) Rally is fine.

4) Dodge roll is fine it already has a 33% cost increase like streak.

Stamina get an ult and a few skills got changed to scale with cp and all of a sudden stamina is op.

Also FYI Dawnbreaker of Smiting is > incap. Use impen i have yet to be hit more than a 7k incap.

Ikr.

Anti_Virus

kaithuzar wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

tist wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing

You shouldn't be dodge rolling as a magic build just shield stack and as long as you CC break every 8 secs with some tri pots you don't even need to worry about your stam pool

This works decently against bad players but lately against 500CP stam with proper builds they tear down your shield as fast as you can put it up. and this is one person. Meanwhile stamina is just evasion, vigor rolling around. Watch countless streams or videos you can watch how easy and cheesy this *** is. Then they 2 bang you with a dawnbreaker execute or some ***.

Oh yeah I see what you mean. But It never used to be this way though:

Stam - hit hard with less survivability

Magic - hit less hard with high survivability

Now stam has both dmg and defense while magic has only defence. This is a balance issue that needs to be addressed, however I (imo) believe that shields>rolling

Shields negate 100% of dmg for a short time and also negates crit dmg. There is not punishment for reapplying shields over and over.

Dodge roll negates 80-90% of dmg at the time of rolling( including the .7 sec I-frame) and negates crit dmg but any AoE can dmg you through dodge

Blocking negates 70-80% of dmg also negates crit but halts stam regen so you can't block indefinitely.

Magic builds still have the upperhand in terms of utility and survivability stam builds just have dmg and are forced to run the same build (2h and bow) to compete.

Now dodge change is a little crazy, I don't know how to balance it but Its quite annoying faced a dodgeroller with shuffle and see "dodge" 5x times but then again it's only 20%.

This is incorrect shields only mitigate 10-12k Thats 2 hits or less from one person what about 10 people?. Dodge role avoids 100% of damage against any number of people it could be 100k damage mitigation with one role. Not even close in comparison. Shields don not scale anywhere near as good as dodge role, vigor, and rally in 1vX.

Nope. If you have a shield active you absorbs ALL incoming dmg. If you dodge roll you're still suspectable to AoE attacks and blocking only mitigates 80% of dmg if you refuse you curse them or use an AoE then thats on you. If I want to beat a shield stacker I have to wear a 5 piece set and Light attack.

With shields you can spam reapply it with no punishment it's not like there's a cost increase for using it withing 4 secs.....

On the flip side if I roll continously I run out of stam even if I went for a full sustain build so Magic still has the upper hand in defense and healing. Infact you have an entire skill tree for healing.

If you don't want to use a resto that's fine each class has self healing in their tree:

NB- swallowed soul, refreshing path, sap essence

Dk - buring ember, draw essence

Temp - restoring ligh skill line

Sorc - surge (kinda meh but it's meant as a side heal), restoring twilight, clanfear and blood magic passives

Are some of these heals viable? Nope. But you have way more options with survivability than the typical 2h an bow vigor builds.

Not every stam build uses a 2h or shuffle but we all HAVE to use vigor as a heal.

COMPLETELY WRONG!
Sure magic builds can spam shields but how much time does it buy us before we run out of resources & get zerged down???
When you are standing in one place spamming shields

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?

you have 0 chance of getting away, where a roll dodger may actually get away from his attacker(s). Tell me more about how I have high survivability as a magic nightblade when cloak is broken...

Also your statement about a shield absorbing all incoming damage is wrong too, if you have a shield for 10k & are hit with 15k dizzying swing then you're still taking 5k of damage bud.

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.

Edit: changed Wreking blow to dizzing swing

Seems fine right? But
the difference is if they decide to use steel tornado or any AoE you can still take zero dmg spamming your shields. I will eventually die dodging as the AoE hits through my defense.


If you want to beat a shield stacker you have 2 viable options (neither of which you guessed):
1) shield breaker - set is still OP & as someone who occasionally uses shields (because it does help) I'm continuously trying to find away to beat this set.
2) champion tree, middle blue one, "shattering blows" - deal more damage to targets with shields

3.) I mentioned option number 1 "If I want to beat a shield stacker I have to wear a 5 piece ste and light attack" which is referring to Shield breaker


Is that really so hard? QQ moar about how you can't take someone down with a shield.

never QQed about shields but you're crying about dodge roll which is inferior to shield stacking with all the counters available to you.

If you roll continuously you run outta stam with a full sustain build???? TRY IT, this is 100% false, I know people rocking 3k+ stam recovery & they can still infinite dodge roll.

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
Medium armor(7/7) = 28% cost reduction
Tumbling(100 pts) = 18% cost reduction

Combined = 46% cost reduction

4500 *.46 = 2025

4500 - 2025 = 2475(this is the cost of dodge roll for this build)

Now calculate the penalty cost if used 4- 2x in a roll within a 4 sec time frame

Cost increase = 99%(rolling 4x)
Cost increase = 66%(rolling 3x)
Cost increase = 33%(rolling 2x)

2475 * .33 = 816.75 (rounded up to 817)

2475 + 817 = 3346 cost of roll dodge after 1 roll

2475 * .66 = 1633.5 (rounded up to 1634)

2475 + 1634 = 4109 cost of rolling after 2 rolls

2475 * .99 = 2450.25( rounded up to 2450)

2475 + 2450.25 = 4925.25 (rounded value = 5K) cost of rolling after 3 rolls

If the person has 3K stam regen then:

3000/2 = 1500 stam regen per sec

1500-4925 = a stam deficit of 3425 after rolling 4x in a row

1500 - 4109 = a stam deficit of 2609 after rolling 3x in a row

1500 - 3346 = a stam deficit of 1846 after rolling 2x in a row

This is acounting for a non popular sustain build in a meta where burst dmg insta gibing is a thing. This build also doesn't do much dmg and CC breaks and ability costs aren't calculated either.

No one can "perma roll" even if you had 5K stam recovery you would be able to roll for a while but not indefinitely case closed

Edit: didn't calulate Well fitted




The problem with all of those heals you listed is "THEY ARE ALL CLASS HEALS THAT SUCK AT HEALING" (except templar)
The point we're trying to make is "I WANT A GOOD HEAL WITHOUT A RESTO STAFF", you guys got one, we don't; end of discussion either you get it or you don't.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT, this is the devs fault not stam builds they need to make other options better instead of the whole stam is a 2h melee and magic is a resto destro caster.

Paraflex

PurifedBladez wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Hollykills V16 Templar Healer

We should definitely take into account the opinion of a guy whose sole class is a magicka templar healer on changes to stamina.

Yeah because the bias isn't obvious.

1) Shuffle, people have been saying this isn't 20% for a while, but until this day i have not seen a video that proves this.

2) Vigor, it's a heal over time, not and instant 14k heal like BoL can be. It's easily countered by reducing healing or putting a few dots on a person.

3) Rally is fine.

4) Dodge roll is fine it already has a 33% cost increase like streak.

Stamina get an ult and a few skills got changed to scale with cp and all of a sudden stamina is op.

Also FYI Dawnbreaker of Smiting is > incap. Use impen i have yet to be hit more than a 7k incap.

Ikr.

Just to be clear i have a max level Sorc,Dk, and NB. I prefer a Healing templar over any other role so sure you can say it's biased. At least I know the roles of stam/mag dps of all classes. As a Mag Templar those self heals Vigor/Rally are a bit to strong especially when paired with any class that has access to major mending like a Stam Templar or Dk's in general.

You should test Blur (Mag based) against Shuffle (Stam based) and see for yourself which one evades more even though they both value 20% dodge rate. I guess if I need to prove a point I can make a video to show you how bugged shuffle is when someone hits you.

I have 3400 Impen with transmutation I personally don't have issues with the skill because I can take the big hits but newer people in the game that don't have 501 Champ points and 3000+ Impen with 25k Physical/Spell Resist get their asses handed to them by Incap.

Cathexis

I have a bigger problem with templars being able to instant heal to full with no way to counter.

Expending multiple dodge rolls to ensure a heal from vigor is a wildly expensive way to get a guaranteed heal by comparison and it in no way protects you from all damage.

Paraflex

Cathexis wrote: »

I have a bigger problem with templars being able to instant heal to full with no way to counter.

Expending multiple dodge rolls to ensure a heal from vigor is a wildly expensive way to get a guaranteed heal by comparison and it in no way protects you from all damage.

I agree templar healing is to strong in this game.We have had a few BoL changes to less people healed and LoS issues now but the major mending buff helped a ton. I have played alot of healer roles in different games but ESO Healing Templars just keep getting buffs and are strong as it is.

Argonian Healer here I come next patch.

They need a spell to silence casters/healers and not just Eclipse because that wont do the trick.

Atleast with me complaining about stam healing and dodge roll I can acknowledge my own class (Healing Templar) I consistently play on is to strong @PurifedBladez

I think they all deserve a nerf across the board tone down healing of all sorts so people can actually die in a reasonable time.

syko809

DocFrost72 wrote: »

And while we're at it, make dodge rolling have its own, seperate bar. No way to increase the bar size, but keep all current ways of reducing cost.

This is a great idea.

syko809

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Hollykills V16 Templar Healer

We should definitely take into account the opinion of a guy whose sole class is a magicka templar healer on changes to stamina.

Yeah because the bias isn't obvious.

1) Shuffle, people have been saying this isn't 20% for a while, but until this day i have not seen a video that proves this.

2) Vigor, it's a heal over time, not and instant 14k heal like BoL can be. It's easily countered by reducing healing or putting a few dots on a person.

3) Rally is fine.

4) Dodge roll is fine it already has a 33% cost increase like streak.

Stamina get an ult and a few skills got changed to scale with cp and all of a sudden stamina is op.

Also FYI Dawnbreaker of Smiting is > incap. Use impen i have yet to be hit more than a 7k incap.

I have seen people use vigor and go from 20% or so health to almost full of the bat

thankyourat

Cathexis wrote: »

I have a bigger problem with templars being able to instant heal to full with no way to counter.

Expending multiple dodge rolls to ensure a heal from vigor is a wildly expensive way to get a guaranteed heal by comparison and it in no way protects you from all damage.

Cathexis wrote: »

I have a bigger problem with templars being able to instant heal to full with no way to counter.

Expending multiple dodge rolls to ensure a heal from vigor is a wildly expensive way to get a guaranteed heal by comparison and it in no way protects you from all damage.

If the Templar is in light armor I can kill him in a couple of hits. If he is in heavy armor sword and shield i just leave him alone because he basically unkillable.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

kaithuzar wrote: »

COMPLETELY WRONG!
Sure magic builds can spam shields but how much time does it buy us before we run out of resources & get zerged down???
When you are standing in one place spamming shields you have 0 chance of getting away, where a roll dodger may actually get away from his attacker(s). Tell me more about how I have high survivability as a magic nightblade when cloak is broken...

Also your statement about a shield absorbing all incoming damage is wrong too, if you have a shield for 10k & are hit with 15k dizzying swing then you're still taking 5k of damage bud.
If you want to beat a shield stacker you have 2 viable options (neither of which you guessed):
1) shield breaker - set is still OP & as someone who occasionally uses shields (because it does help) I'm continuously trying to find away to beat this set.
2) champion tree, middle blue one, "shattering blows" - deal more damage to targets with shields

Is that really so hard? QQ moar about how you can't take someone down with a shield.

If you roll continuously you run outta stam with a full sustain build???? TRY IT, this is 100% false, I know people rocking 3k+ stam recovery & they can still infinite dodge roll.

The problem with all of those heals you listed is "THEY ARE ALL CLASS HEALS THAT SUCK AT HEALING" (except templar)
The point we're trying to make is "I WANT A GOOD HEAL WITHOUT A RESTO STAFF", you guys got one, we don't; end of discussion either you get it or you don't.

I'm interested in getting your perspective on something.

I've been grinding both my Magblade and my Stamblade through Cadwell's Gold for the content/gold/CP.

My Stamblade is a typical DW/2H melee ganker; front bar is Killer's Blade, Shadowy Disguise, Ambush, Surprise Attack, Crippling Grasp and Incapacitating Strike. My Magblade is full melee as well, running Impale, Dampen Magic, Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp and Soul Harvest. On my Magblade I'm using Dampen Magic rotationally and it seems to be keeping me alive pretty well.

In your honest opinion, which do you think would be most favorable in the crucible of a 1v1 situation?

Mac10murda

My vigor on my non min maxed stam dk tool tips 20k with igneous shield, just wondering how much a fully geared toons ticks for

dodgehopper_ESO

Paraflex wrote: »

The issue with stam builds is its to easy to have infinite stamina.

They need to do 1 or more things to a few skills or all of them to balance it.

They should increase the cost of Vigor/Rally/Dodge Roll/Shuffle or

Put diminishing returns some or all of these skills.

Major mending buffs Stam Dk's and Stam Templars get make Vigor/Rally even stronger.

It's just to easy to vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > repeat for ever.

At some point you need to run out of resources or be forced to stand and fight (Kinda like when streak got nerfed sorcs used to be able to streak for ever)

What makes it worse is when people use LOS which is smart and I do it myself but you can evade 5-8 people and never die.

Or they could simply give us an Endurance attribute based on (Stamina + Health) / 2 = Endurance, or somesuch calculation. This Endurance attribute would then be used for things like rolling, break-free, etc. Anyway its just an idea, they could probably come up with a more involved equation, but at the very least it would make the athletic skills not fully related to your offense, and they could then perhaps more normalize its costs. Otherwise there is a reason it works the way it does currently.

PurifedBladez

Paraflex wrote: »

PurifedBladez wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Hollykills V16 Templar Healer

We should definitely take into account the opinion of a guy whose sole class is a magicka templar healer on changes to stamina.

Yeah because the bias isn't obvious.

1) Shuffle, people have been saying this isn't 20% for a while, but until this day i have not seen a video that proves this.

2) Vigor, it's a heal over time, not and instant 14k heal like BoL can be. It's easily countered by reducing healing or putting a few dots on a person.

3) Rally is fine.

4) Dodge roll is fine it already has a 33% cost increase like streak.

Stamina get an ult and a few skills got changed to scale with cp and all of a sudden stamina is op.

Also FYI Dawnbreaker of Smiting is > incap. Use impen i have yet to be hit more than a 7k incap.

Ikr.

Just to be clear i have a max level Sorc,Dk, and NB. I prefer a Healing templar over any other role so sure you can say it's biased. At least I know the roles of stam/mag dps of all classes. As a Mag Templar those self heals Vigor/Rally are a bit to strong especially when paired with any class that has access to major mending like a Stam Templar or Dk's in general.

You should test Blur (Mag based) against Shuffle (Stam based) and see for yourself which one evades more even though they both value 20% dodge rate. I guess if I need to prove a point I can make a video to show you how bugged shuffle is when someone hits you.

I have 3400 Impen with transmutation I personally don't have issues with the skill because I can take the big hits but newer people in the game that don't have 501 Champ points and 3000+ Impen with 25k Physical/Spell Resist get their asses handed to them by Incap.

You should post that video that would be great.

Lord-Otto

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

COMPLETELY WRONG!
Sure magic builds can spam shields but how much time does it buy us before we run out of resources & get zerged down???
When you are standing in one place spamming shields you have 0 chance of getting away, where a roll dodger may actually get away from his attacker(s). Tell me more about how I have high survivability as a magic nightblade when cloak is broken...

Also your statement about a shield absorbing all incoming damage is wrong too, if you have a shield for 10k & are hit with 15k dizzying swing then you're still taking 5k of damage bud.
If you want to beat a shield stacker you have 2 viable options (neither of which you guessed):
1) shield breaker - set is still OP & as someone who occasionally uses shields (because it does help) I'm continuously trying to find away to beat this set.
2) champion tree, middle blue one, "shattering blows" - deal more damage to targets with shields

Is that really so hard? QQ moar about how you can't take someone down with a shield.

If you roll continuously you run outta stam with a full sustain build???? TRY IT, this is 100% false, I know people rocking 3k+ stam recovery & they can still infinite dodge roll.

The problem with all of those heals you listed is "THEY ARE ALL CLASS HEALS THAT SUCK AT HEALING" (except templar)
The point we're trying to make is "I WANT A GOOD HEAL WITHOUT A RESTO STAFF", you guys got one, we don't; end of discussion either you get it or you don't.

I'm interested in getting your perspective on something.

I've been grinding both my Magblade and my Stamblade through Cadwell's Gold for the content/gold/CP.

My Stamblade is a typical DW/2H melee ganker; front bar is Killer's Blade, Shadowy Disguise, Ambush, Surprise Attack, Crippling Grasp and Incapacitating Strike. My Magblade is full melee as well, running Impale, Dampen Magic, Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp and Soul Harvest. On my Magblade I'm using Dampen Magic rotationally and it seems to be keeping me alive pretty well.

In your honest opinion, which do you think would be most favorable in the crucible of a 1v1 situation?

Stamina. Shields are good in 1v1, but the superior damage output of stamina builds far outweighs that. And in 1vX, shields and low stam pools for break free and root breaking, get exponentially worse the more players enter the field. Whereas dodgeroll to negate a theoretically infinite amount of damage, along with the ability to be almost invulnerable to perma CC and roots, is far, FAR superior.

kaithuzar

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

COMPLETELY WRONG!
Sure magic builds can spam shields but how much time does it buy us before we run out of resources & get zerged down???
When you are standing in one place spamming shields you have 0 chance of getting away, where a roll dodger may actually get away from his attacker(s). Tell me more about how I have high survivability as a magic nightblade when cloak is broken...

Also your statement about a shield absorbing all incoming damage is wrong too, if you have a shield for 10k & are hit with 15k dizzying swing then you're still taking 5k of damage bud.
If you want to beat a shield stacker you have 2 viable options (neither of which you guessed):
1) shield breaker - set is still OP & as someone who occasionally uses shields (because it does help) I'm continuously trying to find away to beat this set.
2) champion tree, middle blue one, "shattering blows" - deal more damage to targets with shields

Is that really so hard? QQ moar about how you can't take someone down with a shield.

If you roll continuously you run outta stam with a full sustain build???? TRY IT, this is 100% false, I know people rocking 3k+ stam recovery & they can still infinite dodge roll.

The problem with all of those heals you listed is "THEY ARE ALL CLASS HEALS THAT SUCK AT HEALING" (except templar)
The point we're trying to make is "I WANT A GOOD HEAL WITHOUT A RESTO STAFF", you guys got one, we don't; end of discussion either you get it or you don't.

I'm interested in getting your perspective on something.

I've been grinding both my Magblade and my Stamblade through Cadwell's Gold for the content/gold/CP.

My Stamblade is a typical DW/2H melee ganker; front bar is Killer's Blade, Shadowy Disguise, Ambush, Surprise Attack, Crippling Grasp and Incapacitating Strike. My Magblade is full melee as well, running Impale, Dampen Magic, Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon, Crippling Grasp and Soul Harvest. On my Magblade I'm using Dampen Magic rotationally and it seems to be keeping me alive pretty well.

In your honest opinion, which do you think would be most favorable in the crucible of a 1v1 situation?

Stam build, just dizzying swing spam & on occassion pop rally roll dodge vigor, roll dodge cloak & go right back into it.
Don't forget poison injection, crit rush/stampede & practice how to animation cancel a heavy attack with a dizzying swing/reverse slice/dawnbreaker & you'll be just as OP as the best fotm builds in cyrodiil; if you want icing on the cake run malabeth helm & shoulder.

kaithuzar

@ShadowStarKing post is getting too long so listing specific points I want to address:

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?
Have you played the game lately? We've been in a recent meta of CC/root/stun city, how do you expect a magic player to have a ton of stam to break free & get away? I've adapted my build so I'm not terrible at this but it's still tough & most non sorc magic builds have this issue

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.
ok, so insert "your choice of damaging ability", because there a plenty of players out there which can do a single non-crit attack for over 10k, my shields are 10k total, each individual shield is less maybe 8k for harness (not a sorc, mag nb). #dmgISreal

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
...bunch of math...

What's insulting is the fact that you feel you need to display your ability to do elementary math without calculating all possibilities! You list out a few things & then clearly state you did not account for well fitted? You said nothing about the champion tree, you said nothing about reducing stam cost such as vicious ophidian or other sets. If you are going to prove a point then prove it but don't waste forum space trying to prove to everyone you can multiply & subtract; it's boring & insulting.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT...
I'll agree, however you have to remember this also depends on class:
dk = igneous (major mendiing), coagulating blood (minor vitality?)
templar = Restoring Aura (major mendiing), Restoring Focus (minor vitality)
nb can have vitality, not sure about sorc, but point being major mending is a huge deal IMO
when you add in the fact that mending & vitality can stack with malabeth it's makes a fight really annoying

WreckfulAbandon

After some extensive PvP over the last few days, I can safely say that Vigor heals for too much. Was in some fights where we couldn't kill each other, but each time it was the stamina user's fight to lose. Too much dmg combined with too many heals. If I had made one mistake I would have been shredded whilst I made note of several mistakes on their part.

With all the wep dmg stacking Vigor has become the most potent HOT in the game. A stamina heal. Considering how high wep dmg is these days the coefficient needs looking at. Every fight a stamina build gets into is theirs to lose, why do you think the vast majority of 1vXers are usually on stamina builds these days?

Edit: wanted to add that in the past few days I have only died to a magicka build once, a very skilled magblade where I made several mistakes that (rightly) cost me. Fighting a good stamina dmg stacker you don't have the luxury of making several mistakes, you usually die after one.

Anti_Virus

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing post is getting too long so listing specific points I want to address:

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?
Have you played the game lately? We've been in a recent meta of CC/root/stun city, how do you expect a magic player to have a ton of stam to break free & get away? I've adapted my build so I'm not terrible at this but it's still tough & most non sorc magic builds have this issue

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.
ok, so insert "your choice of damaging ability", because there a plenty of players out there which can do a single non-crit attack for over 10k, my shields are 10k total, each individual shield is less maybe 8k for harness (not a sorc, mag nb). #dmgISreal

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
...bunch of math...

What's insulting is the fact that you feel you need to display your ability to do elementary math without calculating all possibilities! You list out a few things & then clearly state you did not account for well fitted? You said nothing about the champion tree, you said nothing about reducing stam cost such as vicious ophidian or other sets. If you are going to prove a point then prove it but don't waste forum space trying to prove to everyone you can multiply & subtract; it's boring & insulting.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT...
I'll agree, however you have to remember this also depends on class:
dk = igneous (major mendiing), coagulating blood (minor vitality?)
templar = Restoring Aura (major mendiing), Restoring Focus (minor vitality)
nb can have vitality, not sure about sorc, but point being major mending is a huge deal IMO
when you add in the fact that mending & vitality can stack with malabeth it's makes a fight really annoying

I appreciate you condensing the post but here are some flaws with your post...

First you should have no problem what so ever with shields if you're 1vXing you have the ability to LOS just like anyone else in addition to stacking shields so use it to your advantage.

Second you're lying about a non crit 10K ability I don't beleive that's even possible that means you're not putting points into hardy and they have a tool tip of 20K yeah bull crap man.

But shields can be 2 shot or three shot since stam builds can get high WD but this "oh mer gurd they deal 10K non crit dmg" is utter bull crap.

Third I love how you insult me when Im proving you guys wrong. I actually calculated a build running 7/7 medium and 100 pts into Tumbling if you go back an read it but you refuse to acknowledge that. Most builds don't use well fitted nor put 100 pts into Tumbling not do they run 7/7 medium armor and they aren't running trials sets since most PVPer hate PVE. I did the math to prove that this magic perma rolling builds do not exist what else do you want me to do? Just say it ain't so with out facts?

I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me that it's possible to literally perma roll once you do that I leave it at that. I untill then you've lost the argument here by insulting me and not providing evidence of your own.

Lastly all the buffs you mentioned are geared to help healing in general but they benefit magic builds more since you guys have more healing skills available and they synergizes with magic builds.

WreckfulAbandon

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing post is getting too long so listing specific points I want to address:

1.) That's your fault for not moving stam builds dont dodge roll in place so why should you be able to stand still and take dmg?
Have you played the game lately? We've been in a recent meta of CC/root/stun city, how do you expect a magic player to have a ton of stam to break free & get away? I've adapted my build so I'm not terrible at this but it's still tough & most non sorc magic builds have this issue

2.) This must be pure ignorance. First of all NO one is going to hit with a 15K non crit dizzing swing so stop with that bull s**t. Second if you're hit by it you absorb the dmg completely and if I roll dodge they miss their attack.
ok, so insert "your choice of damaging ability", because there a plenty of players out there which can do a single non-crit attack for over 10k, my shields are 10k total, each individual shield is less maybe 8k for harness (not a sorc, mag nb). #dmgISreal

4.) I'm going to assume you're trolling here or maybe you don't know how math works (mean no disrespect here) but a 33% cost increase STACKS you roll 3x in a row that's a 100% cost increase(99% rounded up) dodge roll costs about 4.5K with out cost reduction let's do some math:
...bunch of math...

What's insulting is the fact that you feel you need to display your ability to do elementary math without calculating all possibilities! You list out a few things & then clearly state you did not account for well fitted? You said nothing about the champion tree, you said nothing about reducing stam cost such as vicious ophidian or other sets. If you are going to prove a point then prove it but don't waste forum space trying to prove to everyone you can multiply & subtract; it's boring & insulting.

5.) I said the heals may not be to your liking but you have the diverse options. Belive me I know how you feel us stam builds have to use a 2h not because want to but because its the only option we have besides a HOT...
I'll agree, however you have to remember this also depends on class:
dk = igneous (major mendiing), coagulating blood (minor vitality?)
templar = Restoring Aura (major mendiing), Restoring Focus (minor vitality)
nb can have vitality, not sure about sorc, but point being major mending is a huge deal IMO
when you add in the fact that mending & vitality can stack with malabeth it's makes a fight really annoying

I appreciate you condensing the post but here are some flaws with your post...

First you should have no problem what so ever with shields if you're 1vXing you have the ability to LOS just like anyone else in addition to stacking shields so use it to your advantage.

Second you're lying about a non crit 10K ability I don't beleive that's even possible that means you're not putting points into hardy and they have a tool tip of 20K yeah bull crap man.

But shields can be 2 shot or three shot since stam builds can get high WD but this "oh mer gurd they deal 10K non crit dmg" is utter bull crap.

Third I love how you insult me when Im proving you guys wrong. I actually calculated a build running 7/7 medium and 100 pts into Tumbling if you go back an read it but you refuse to acknowledge that. Most builds don't use well fitted nor put 100 pts into Tumbling not do they run 7/7 medium armor and they aren't running trials sets since most PVPer hate PVE. I did the math to prove that this magic perma rolling builds do not exist what else do you want me to do? Just say it ain't so with out facts?

I'd love for you to mathematically prove to me that it's possible to literally perma roll once you do that I leave it at that. I untill then you've lost the argument here by insulting me and not providing evidence of your own.

Lastly all the buffs you mentioned are geared to help healing in general but they benefit magic builds more since you guys have more healing skills available and they synergizes with magic builds.

A few points:

-If your shield lasts 3 hits vs a stam build, they might not be running with sets or CP . With animation cancels and weaving its usually essentially one and done. One GCD.

-Major mending helps stamina just as much as magicka.

-The existence of "perma roll" builds depends on ur definition of perma roll. No one can literally just roll dodge over and over again constantly. But if you are decent at managing your resources you can always have stamina to roll if you need it, it's almost trivially easy to mitigate your opponents best burst skills with only a modicum of competency.

-Magicka might have more heals but stamina heals are stronger than every magicka heal except BoL and healing ward. You can stack wep dmg so high and the coefficients on stam heals appear to be quite high.Not counting sorc pet heals since they are unwieldy in PvP. And as I mentioned above, if someone else gets ur healing ward you die.

-Only thing magicka has on stamina atm is Purge. and VD/proxy cheese.

WreckfulAbandon

double post

DHale

I seriously get a chuckle when people say to get gud when sorc shields were nerfed that we needed to adapt. Ppl that played sorc really well that I could not beat or would be very hard to beat are now effortless to beat. It's literally like they are played by other ppl. If ppl think it's fun to constantly reapply shields more power to you. Balance is achieved when you take something away you give something back. Buffs and nerfs not just nerfs. The nerfs are a small part of the new reality... It's just no longer fun to play. I had multiple other toons so now I play those and my sorc... picks flowers.