Let's talk about Stamina builds

WreckfulAbandon

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Makkir

ive been sayin!
i think its ridiculous how hard stamina hits to be coupled with the heals that dont require a resto staff.

Lokey0024

Take dodgeroll reduction off medium armor and give it more reduced cost and regen?

Honestly don't know how to remove survivability without just making them a punching bag. But watching someone you just got to 20% health get almost full again after 3 dosgerolls where you couldn't land1 hit on them is annoying.

leepalmer95

Passive heals or the ability to cast a shield and go to full hp in a few seconds, oh and also ignore crits.

Cathexis

I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone about the idiocy of removing soft caps.

Jaronking

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Passive heals or the ability to cast a shield and go to full hp in a few seconds, oh and also ignore crits.

Those seems very unblanced to me.Stamina heals are all over time magica heals are better.Especially when you compare healing ward to vigor.

mtwiggz

Someone has never heard of CCs apparently.

Solariken

I really like what ZOS has done with stamina builds this patch. The only point from the OP to which I agree is that Major Evasion is too strong - 20% is WAY too much dodge chance.

SneaK

L2Magicka

DocFrost72

Easy solution. Make a dodge roll have diminishing returns and cap at a certain number of hits. Any dodge roll initially has a 100 percent chance to dodge. Next has 80. Next has 60. So on and so forth. Also, no dodge in this game should be broken enough to avoid more than five attacks at ince. You'd figure just by sheer volume of fire alone your target would be swiss cheese.

And while we're at it, make dodge rolling have its own, seperate bar. No way to increase the bar size, but keep all current ways of reducing cost.

susmitds

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Easy solution. Make a dodge roll have diminishing returns and cap at a certain number of hits. Any dodge roll initially has a 100 percent chance to dodge. Next has 80. Next has 60. So on and so forth. Also, no dodge in this game should be broken enough to avoid more than five attacks at ince. You'd figure just by sheer volume of fire alone your target would be swiss cheese.

And while we're at it, make dodge rolling have its own, seperate bar. No way to increase the bar size, but keep all current ways of reducing cost.

Nope, that would make stamina and magicka equally good at dodging.

WreckfulAbandon

SneaK wrote: »

L2Magicka

I have, with all 4 classes. And I played stamina DK at launch. Things sure have changed..

mtwiggz wrote: »

Someone has never heard of CCs apparently.

Community Coffee?

WreckfulAbandon

susmitds wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Easy solution. Make a dodge roll have diminishing returns and cap at a certain number of hits. Any dodge roll initially has a 100 percent chance to dodge. Next has 80. Next has 60. So on and so forth. Also, no dodge in this game should be broken enough to avoid more than five attacks at ince. You'd figure just by sheer volume of fire alone your target would be swiss cheese.

And while we're at it, make dodge rolling have its own, seperate bar. No way to increase the bar size, but keep all current ways of reducing cost.

Nope, that would make stamina and magicka equally good at dodging.

Yeah I don't think that would be the best way to go about it either.

I'm not sure how this all needs to be addressed, just wanted to point out that stamina has too much right now where damage, mobility, and survivability are concerned. Taken as a whole.

If some more attacks were made undodgeable that could even work. Whip could certainly be undodgeable again.

Makkir

Is this a good time?

DocFrost72

susmitds wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Easy solution. Make a dodge roll have diminishing returns and cap at a certain number of hits. Any dodge roll initially has a 100 percent chance to dodge. Next has 80. Next has 60. So on and so forth. Also, no dodge in this game should be broken enough to avoid more than five attacks at ince. You'd figure just by sheer volume of fire alone your target would be swiss cheese.

And while we're at it, make dodge rolling have its own, seperate bar. No way to increase the bar size, but keep all current ways of reducing cost.

Nope, that would make stamina and magicka equally good at dodging.

Not really, since you have innate passives in medium armor that reduce cost by over a quarter in full gear. But if you're worried about builds being to similar, legitimate concern.

Toc de Malsvi

Evasion should work differently, currently it is too powerful. Lag in combat only makes this worse ending up with even more "dodges". Vigor could probably take a 5% reduction as well, otherwise its fine.

mubzander

Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.

Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.

Sandman929

I like it when they're visibly on fire, but the fire DoT "misses". It's strange to think that a person on fire is also not on fire.

Sandman929

mubzander wrote: »

Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.

Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.

As someone with stamina and magicka builds, this makes me chuckle.

Vangy

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

Cody

I fully agree and I main a stamina build.

The return of soft caps would help greatly I think. blaming X class like many prefer to do solves nothing.

Paraflex

The issue with stam builds is its to easy to have infinite stamina.

They need to do 1 or more things to a few skills or all of them to balance it.

They should increase the cost of Vigor/Rally/Dodge Roll/Shuffle or

Put diminishing returns some or all of these skills.

Major mending buffs Stam Dk's and Stam Templars get make Vigor/Rally even stronger.

It's just to easy to vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > repeat for ever.

At some point you need to run out of resources or be forced to stand and fight (Kinda like when streak got nerfed sorcs used to be able to streak for ever)

What makes it worse is when people use LOS which is smart and I do it myself but you can evade 5-8 people and never die.

bardx86

mubzander wrote: »

Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.

Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.

Have you lost it completely. Magic build have to watch stamina more than any stam class.

bardx86

Paraflex wrote: »

The issue with stam builds is its to easy to have infinite stamina.

They need to do 1 or more things to a few skills or all of them to balance it.

They should increase the cost of Vigor/Rally/Dodge Roll/Shuffle or

Put diminishing returns some or all of these skills.

Major mending buffs Stam Dk's and Stam Templars get make Vigor/Rally even stronger.

It's just to easy to vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > vigor/rally/shuffle > attack > dodge roll > repeat for ever.

At some point you need to run out of resources or be forced to stand and fight (Kinda like when streak got nerfed sorcs used to be able to streak for ever)

What makes it worse is when people use LOS which is smart and I do it myself but you can evade 5-8 people and never die.

Exactly

Brrrofski

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

You can definitely still do certain atrack moves while dodge rolling. You can even hit ults like dawnbreaker abd Incap Strike while rolling...

WillhelmBlack

I'd say all stamina builds are way stronger than magicka. The only thing keeping up with them is magicka Templar but it's still very vulnerable if using light armour, like 2-3 hits and you're dead. 2 hits from stealth.

Stamina was OP in PvP before DB, then ZOS buffed it some more.


ZOS know this, it's intended.

Vangy

Brrrofski wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

You can definitely still do certain atrack moves while dodge rolling. You can even hit ults like dawnbreaker abd Incap Strike while rolling...

That's like saying you can medium weave while using ward........ Excluding animation cancelling, you cannot do anything during dodge rolling. Just like you cant do anything while casting a skill. Ofcourse you can cancel an animation such as ward or DBOS etc with dodge roll or block, but the GCD is still upheld.

thankyourat

I feel like magicka builds should hit harder because they are slower and have less survivability than stamina builds. It makes no since for stamina to hit harder and be able to survive better. Stamina has always been better than magicka, but at least last patch magicka builds had proxy det for burst damage. Now it's way harder for you too burst down stamina builds because one of your attacks is almost guaranteed to miss because of shuffle, while it's really easy for them to burst you down because you're in light armor. I wear 5 impen and I still got hit buy a 8.3k surprise attack

WreckfulAbandon

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

Of course magicka and stamina will never be completely balanced between small-scale and large-scale but we can always try for better.

The existence of Bombard, Vigor, Caltrops, Rapids, Steel Tornado, and the new DB and Reverse Slash make stamina an integral part of group play.

My main issue is their outstanding survivability and damage AND mobility in what will likely continue to be a mobility meta. The fact that this makes them kings of small-scale is the effect, not the cause.

Paraflex

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Jaronking

@Paraflex if we increase the cost of vigor we should also increase the cost of healing ward and reduce its heal as well to keep it fair.