Let's talk about Stamina builds

Paraflex

I would agree with you @Jaronking they would have to balance it and increase the cost to ward ally too.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Let's compromise and just increase the cost of Vigor (group heal that always heals self) to be equal to healing ward (single target, unreliable self heal). Oh...wait... that already doubles it's cost.

I don't have a problem with must of the stam defensive kit, but the cheap cost of Vigor definitely need to be addressed.

A different solution would be to make stamina heals cost magicka (while still scaling off of WD and stam) and be relatively expensive. This would drain a separate resource for stam builds, similar to the way block and dodge roll is expensive for magicka builds.

Cody

thankyourat wrote: »

I feel like magicka builds should hit harder because they are slower and have less survivability than stamina builds. It makes no since for stamina to hit harder and be able to survive better. Stamina has always been better than magicka, but at least last patch magicka builds had proxy det for burst damage. Now it's way harder for you too burst down stamina builds because one of your attacks is almost guaranteed to miss because of shuffle, while it's really easy for them to burst you down because you're in light armor. I wear 5 impen and I still got hit buy a 8.3k surprise attack

stamina was not always better than magicka. Back in the times of launch mana builds were actually better. I am not saying stamina builds could not do well, but mana builds tended to perform generally better.

Its basically switched since then. SOFTCAPS EVERYONE:) BRING BACK SOFTCAPS.

Solariken

As a total rebalancing package, I would support a small reduction in the Rally burst heal and removing the AoE heal from the Resolving Vigor morph IN ADDITION to reducing Major Evasion to 10% chance.

I wouldn't change much more than that without seeing how the balance feels after the above changes...

acw37162

Rally has been in need of nerf for a long time. Truth be told it should be a fighters guild skill with a magica and stamina morph butvthatveould require other adjustment elsewhere.

They should have moved and adjusted rally this patch instead the by buffed the second morph hoping to make it more attractive with 8 seconds of snare immunity.

Shuffle is accessible to everyone and when you get into shuffle you get blur and its morphs and for the love of god though a NB or a sorc skill and the forums explode with hate.

Dodge roll accessible to everyone, has escalating cost, magica builds can wear well-fitted even if they choose not to.

Skitttles

But I feel like getting stabbed should hurt more than fairy dust getting thrown at you.

GreenSoup2HoT

Nerf Rally. I don't mind. I use Forward Momentum anyway.

Justice31st

Magicka builds need a dodge roll based off of Magicka.

Paraflex

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Let's compromise and just increase the cost of Vigor (group heal that always heals self) to be equal to healing ward (single target, unreliable self heal). Oh...wait... that already doubles it's cost.

I don't have a problem with must of the stam defensive kit, but the cheap cost of Vigor definitely need to be addressed.

A different solution would be to make stamina heals cost magicka (while still scaling off of WD and stam) and be relatively expensive. This would drain a separate resource for stam builds, similar to the way block and dodge roll is expensive for magicka builds.

This is actually a good idea they could keep everything as it is but force people to choose between healing and dps by putting this in the mag resource line.

Lava_Croft

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Jaronking

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

leepalmer95

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the priority for all stamina skill would be in this order.

1) Shuffle - reduce the evasion to a true 10-15% no a fake 20% that's more like a 50% dodge chance.

2) Vigor - AoE easily spammed heal even stronger with major mending needs double to costs or reduction in the heal value.

3) Rally - Single target heal that can double hit when you pop it twice maybe fix this mechanic and reduce the healing or increase the cost.

4) Dodge roll doesn't need any adjustment until like 5 consecutive dodge rolls with in 5 seconds or so from each other than it needs a harsh cost increase like what streak got.

I don't know if these are the correct values for a reduction or cost increase but stamina all around is to strong and needs some type of adjustments.

Oh ya incapacitating strike definitely needs a ultimate cost increase at 50 for the value that's way to cheap to hit as hard as it currently does.

Hollykills V16 Templar Healer

We should definitely take into account the opinion of a guy whose sole class is a magicka templar healer on changes to stamina.

Yeah because the bias isn't obvious.

1) Shuffle, people have been saying this isn't 20% for a while, but until this day i have not seen a video that proves this.

2) Vigor, it's a heal over time, not and instant 14k heal like BoL can be. It's easily countered by reducing healing or putting a few dots on a person.

3) Rally is fine.

4) Dodge roll is fine it already has a 33% cost increase like streak.

Stamina get an ult and a few skills got changed to scale with cp and all of a sudden stamina is op.

Also FYI Dawnbreaker of Smiting is > incap. Use impen i have yet to be hit more than a 7k incap.

Lava_Croft

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

Bashev

Cody wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I feel like magicka builds should hit harder because they are slower and have less survivability than stamina builds. It makes no since for stamina to hit harder and be able to survive better. Stamina has always been better than magicka, but at least last patch magicka builds had proxy det for burst damage. Now it's way harder for you too burst down stamina builds because one of your attacks is almost guaranteed to miss because of shuffle, while it's really easy for them to burst you down because you're in light armor. I wear 5 impen and I still got hit buy a 8.3k surprise attack

stamina was not always better than magicka. Back in the times of launch mana builds were actually better. I am not saying stamina builds could not do well, but mana builds tended to perform generally better.

Its basically switched since then. SOFTCAPS EVERYONE:) BRING BACK SOFTCAPS.

I am for the soft caps but then stamina builds will be bad again if the core mechanic is not changed. Magicka builds used magicka for offence and stamina for defence when we had soft caps, while stamina builds should share their resources for offence and defence. Of course they can use some utility skills with magicka but they will struggle.

caeliusstarbreaker

Apply a dot. Apply a dot that has some other status effect. You're welcome.

Vangy

? Is stamina REALLY that strong? Guess my PvP guilds must be doing it wrong... Every typical 12-20m group runs like this;

for 16m group:
2 tanks/support running cc's and heal debuffs
3-4 healers. (mag duh)
2 caltrops + bombard spammers, 2 rapids spammers (4 stam builds)
6-7 mag DPS.....

for 12 man --> just scale down above.

Mag DPS is still the go to for group play.... Yeah stam is awesome in 1v1s or 5v5s but openworld cyro mag builds are still king of group play.. They still have the best aoes in the form of proxy, batswarm, tether, VD etc etc...Oh and lets not forget negate..The ulti to rule all ultis.... Stam is just used for rapid spamming bombard nuking monkeys......

LegacyDM

mubzander wrote: »

Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.

Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.

Um no. Magicka builds have to manage resources on 2 pools versus 1. What do you think happens when we are disoriented, immobilized, snared, stunned, off balanced, or knockdowned? We have to break free and or dodge roll. How many times can we do that in a fight? Maybe 2-3 times? We can't just dodge roll away and shuffle stack ad infinitum. Which means if we need to split cp, enchants, or stats points into stamina we are gimping ourselves and don't produce the min max damage needed to be competitive with stamina builds. If we don't then we are often dead in the water with little stamina and no ability to block.

I'm not going to speak for other classes but as a mageblade, what is my go to skill when I run out of stamina? Healing ward? Cloak? Fear? Healing ward does not provide mobility and only works for so long before I run out of magicka. Healing ward forces me to slot a useless staff and soak up damage. I'd much rather be mobile so I can get away. Cloak is broke. Fear is good but what if players have immunity up?

With wrobels 10% resource increase to skills I have to manage my magicka resources harder than ever while balancing stamina. You obviously haven't played a magicka toon because we very easily run dry and we hit like a wet noodle compared to stamina.

Stamina has 1 resource pool to worry about. Gets the benefit of medium armor ratings. Hits harder than magicka and gets better mobility. All they got to do is stack vigor, use rally on a two hander they are already using for high damage with wb canceling, shuffle stack and dodge with Crusader set. Instant win. You have no idea the circus performance and juggling act I got to perform to even remotely get that kind of mobility and survivability on my mageblade.

I think the op highlights the problem. Stamina builds hit harder and has better survivability due to their mobility advantage. In conclusion, Either healing is too strong, dodge rolling is to much, or damage output is too high. Stamina players should not have all three. Magicka builds have to make choices and sacrifices. Do stamina builds? The argument that 1 resource pool is weak. The meta proves that although you have 1 resource pool, you are able to still gain a significant competitive advantage with it. You can stack and throw everything into it. It synergizes better with the builds. Pvp is based on damage, ccs, and mobility.

LegacyDM

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

Guess you haven't been watching fengrush or krotha lately in large scale pvp. Those guys dodge roll and run right into the thick of battle with awesome mobility and damage casting vigor like a champ and bouncing from enemy to enemy with stampede/crit charge. Granted they have help and use a lot of tools but it highlight the power of dodge rolling, vigor, and damage output of two handers with wb animation canceling. If I tried doing that on my mageblade I would be dead in 2 seconds. We don't have the mobility. And no I don't want to be forced to use alchemist, proxy det, and vicious death just to do the single target and aoe damage they can do with dawn breaker and reverse slice from a two hander and benefits of medium armor.

WreckfulAbandon

Solariken wrote: »

As a total rebalancing package, I would support a small reduction in the Rally burst heal and removing the AoE heal from the Resolving Vigor morph IN ADDITION to reducing Major Evasion to 10% chance.

I wouldn't change much more than that without seeing how the balance feels after the above changes...

I think all PvP balancing needs to be done in small steps.

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Apply a dot. Apply a dot that has some other status effect. You're welcome.

1) Apply burn to player

2) Watch the burning effect miss even though the player is clearly on fire

3) Thank you... For what again?

Jaronking

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.

Lexxypwns

Also, let's not forget that dodge roll is on a different Cooldown from abilities so you can actually be offensive and prevent nearly 100% of incoming damage by just animation canceling your offensive skills with a roll...

Edit: I'm actually mostly happy with balance as it is, despite playing mag DK I'm having more fun in pvp this patch than in a while, can't quite put my finger on why though

kadar

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

@WreckfulAbandon
I see where you're coming from, OP. But I don't think that comparing Shields with Dodge roll + Shuffle + Rally + Vigor is a fair comparison. Let's look at what was required of a shield spammer for maximum defense pre- DB: press "1." The only way a Stamina build can even come close to such a defense is press "1, 2, 3," hit "4" every few seconds. You're comparing the ability to mitigate all incoming damage with no chance to crit with the combined effects of 3 abilities and an active dodge roll used in tandem (even when executed perfectly the stam build still takes damage). Even from an offense vs. defense point of view, shields are amazingly strong. Anyone attacking a shield spam defense has to maximize dps output: animation cancelling, CC, staying in melee range if melee, ect. Shield spammer presses "1."

If you think shuffle is a cheese defense, look at the shield spam style, haha.

Now it's not that I don't think shuffle/dodging mechanics shouldn't be addressed, but I'm not sure that's what this thread is about.
edit for tag

Xvorg

mubzander wrote: »

Stamina builds have to be aware of dodge rolling, blocking, attacking and healing, so it's only fair if they hit slightly harder since they all usually come off the stamina pool with exception of some skills.

Magicka builds are easy to play compared to them. You don't have to constantly watch your resources.

Stamina builds can, or roll dodge, or block efficietly. Magicka builds only can block since the cost of dodge roll is prohibitive and any CC after a roll dodge is a death sentence.

Magicka builds need to look at their resources as much as stam builds

WreckfulAbandon

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

As a total rebalancing package, I would support a small reduction in the Rally burst heal and removing the AoE heal from the Resolving Vigor morph IN ADDITION to reducing Major Evasion to 10% chance.

I wouldn't change much more than that without seeing how the balance feels after the above changes...

I think all PvP balancing needs to be done incrementally and in small steps.

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Apply a dot. Apply a dot that has some other status effect. You're welcome.

1) Apply burn to player

2) Watch the burning effect miss even though the player is clearly on fire

3) Thank you... For what again?

The_Outsider wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

@WreckfulAbandon
I see where you're coming from, OP. But I don't think that comparing Shields with Dodge roll + Shuffle + Rally + Vigor is a fair comparison. Let's look at what was required of a shield spammer for maximum defense pre- DB: press "1." The only way a Stamina build can even come close to such a defense is press "1, 2, 3," hit "4" every few seconds. You're comparing the ability to mitigate all incoming damage with no chance to crit with the combined effects of 3 abilities and an active dodge roll used in tandem (even when executed perfectly the stam build still takes damage). Even from an offense vs. defense point of view, shields are amazingly strong. Anyone attacking a shield spam defense has to maximize dps output: animation cancelling, CC, staying in melee range if melee, ect. Shield spammer presses "1."

If you think shuffle is a cheese defense, look at the shield spam style, haha.

Now it's not that I don't think shuffle/dodging mechanics shouldn't be addressed, but I'm not sure that's what this thread is about.
edit for tag

That would be a good start if dodge could be looked at. It's all of these qualities as a whole that I find unbalanced, I'm fine with stamina having the advantage in damage and mobility. Just not survivability as well. A couple of small tweaks could go a long way.

Lava_Croft

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.

2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.

Jaronking

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.

2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.

Bruh healing OP you didn't know.Those heavy restro attackd hit hard lol but fair point.

LegacyDM

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina: Non-class based healing that's only outclassed by MagPlar healing.

#JustWrobelThings

Yes because healing ward is so weak GTFO with that BS.

Since you have to equip a specific, otherwise useless weapon for Healing Ward it's indeed weak.

When that specific weapons has additional heals on it not weak at all.Not to mentioned we have to do the same thing for Rally all stamina builds most run 2 hand for a heal same as magic builds.Not to mentioned healing ward heals you and give you a shield that grant you crit immunity and absorb a crap ton of damage.Yea that's weak get the hell out of here with that Bs man.

2H comes with excellent damage skills while a Resto allows you to heal your opponent to death.

ill piggyback off what lava croft said. healing ward is restricted to back buff bar. im forced to use resto staff on back bar. vigor can be placed anywhere. most people would place it on direct damage bar to utilize the increased weapon damage to maximize heal output with rally. they also are not subjected to weapon swap. we all know the delay, lag, and bugs with weapon swapping. im sorry but when you are in thick of combat and buff yourself to 6k weapon damage running vigor on your main bar without worrying about weapon swap for heals thats a huge advantage. now, you could tell me to use resto on main bar but then my dps went into the toilet compsred to what you can output with a two hander. lets think about this. im in combat and im magicka build. im getting cced pummled by x players. i flip to resto to cast healing ward. i get a nice heal and damage abosrbtion. but its not like i can dodge roll my way out of the fight to safety. im certainly not doing any counter attack because i would need to flip back to main bar. but you as a stamina player can dodge roll, dodge roll, vigor, dodge roll, crit rush, wb, dodge roll, vigor, flip to back bar, shuffle, and then rapid menuevers to get the hell out of town if things get bad. healing ward just doesnt synergize the way vigor and rally does. vigor has more utility and can be used more fluidly. it is apparent that vigor, dodge rolling, and high weapon damage offers so much more than what magicka builds have to offer. sure magicka builds get utility but we hit like a wet noodle and lack mobility. the only meta for magcka builds is to be a sypherpk bombblade or an ishakashi (sp?) healplar. not everyone wants to be a bomblade or a jesusbeam dsrk flare healplar.

Vangy

LegacyDM wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

Your confused.... When you are dodge rolling you cannot attack. Hence the philosophy of while you are defending you cannot attack is upheld.... The second your dodge roll ends you can go back to attacking and will take full damage as well.. Wards used to be such that you prebuff before engaging with (in the worst offender cases) with annulment + hardened + healing for a 20k+ shield.. This allows you to go FULL potato offensive while basically ignoring any kind of damage for a good 5-10 seconds depending on how good your opponent is. Dodge roll does NOT allow you to do that. You either attack OR dodge roll.

You also arent acknowledging the shortcomings of heals that are ONLY HOTS. Basically if you ever drop below 30%, you are in serious danger. You cant just hit a massive heal spell like bol and get topped up to almost full. You have to dodge roll and pray the HOTS are enuf to keep you alive and that your opponents are stupid enough to not use undodgeable CCs.

Stamina is pretty good for small scale and 1v1s, but in open world cyro group play, they are basically bombard spam monkeys... Magicka has VD, proxy and pretty much the whole toolkit of hard hitting huge AOE ultimates ranging from standard to meteor. DBOS is fantastic but its the ONLY thing stam has... Steel nado and bombard dosent quite compare to proxy>lotusfan>soul tether/swarm or proxy>meteor>streak etc etc....

I think its fine that stam is better for small scale and that mag is really good in large scale. I think total homogenization should be avoided.... I mean look at magDKs... They are SO strong in small scale group play but total trash in open world solo. They are just sitting ducks waiting to be potato-ed to death.

Guess you haven't been watching fengrush or krotha lately in large scale pvp. Those guys dodge roll and run right into the thick of battle with awesome mobility and damage casting vigor like a champ and bouncing from enemy to enemy with stampede/crit charge. Granted they have help and use a lot of tools but it highlight the power of dodge rolling, vigor, and damage output of two handers with wb animation canceling. If I tried doing that on my mageblade I would be dead in 2 seconds. We don't have the mobility. And no I don't want to be forced to use alchemist, proxy det, and vicious death just to do the single target and aoe damage they can do with dawn breaker and reverse slice from a two hander and benefits of medium armor.

Those are reallllly good players.... I don't mean to be harsh but if you tried doing what they do with stamina toons, you'd be dead in about 2 seconds too.... I've seen enough magblades blow up a full group in about 2 seconds too. But you don't see me claiming mageblade op....

1vX only works when you are fighting potatoes.... You could name any goody guild from Khole to invictus and arcane and these guys would tear out 1vXers in about 2 seconds....be it stamina or magicka...

kadar

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

As a total rebalancing package, I would support a small reduction in the Rally burst heal and removing the AoE heal from the Resolving Vigor morph IN ADDITION to reducing Major Evasion to 10% chance.

I wouldn't change much more than that without seeing how the balance feels after the above changes...

I think all PvP balancing needs to be done incrementally and in small steps.

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Apply a dot. Apply a dot that has some other status effect. You're welcome.

1) Apply burn to player

2) Watch the burning effect miss even though the player is clearly on fire

3) Thank you... For what again?

The_Outsider wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

So the logic behind the shield nerf was plainly laid out to us in late April with this gem:


"Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously."


So the logic is to add a higher threshold to skilled play by forcing damage builds (that can benefit both offensively and defensively from the same attribute) somewhat balanced. I can get behind that. So why stop with sorcs?

Rally: over 30 sec duration, gives major brutality, HoT, bust heal or snare immunity if needed. Talk about a complete package!
Shuffle: 20 sec duration, I think 20% dodge chance is cheese, but feel to disagree.
Dodge roll: priceless

In the middle of a fight it is common practice to pop Vigor, dodge roll for a tick, and continue the offensive. Defiled? Nah, dodged that! And with another 4 sec of large heal ticks from Vigor combined with Rally heals, you can safely go on the offensive and put tons of pressure on the opponent.

And anyone who's been in Cyrodiil lately sees what that offensive will look like, which really doesn't do justice to the actual amount of attacks hitting you. Sure this has been a constant in the game but come on, animation cancelling heavy attacks into WB is pure cheese, much less throwing in the new Dawnbreaker and 2h execute. Take Flight animation cancels? I think we can all agree stamina hits very hard. So why does stamina also have superior survivability at this stage in the game? You can run away from what you can't kill or dodge/tank. It's every bit as broken as magsorc in 1.6, which generated so much QQ (some of it from me) back in the day.

Can we just be honest and acknowledge that the game is definitely favoring Stamina builds right now? Enough so to warrant some changes. I won't clamor for those changes because the patch just hit and things need to settle, but these are my thoughts right now, I have no problem getting this ball rolling.

I know there are gonna be a ton of gankers here disagreeing vehemently with me

@WreckfulAbandon
I see where you're coming from, OP. But I don't think that comparing Shields with Dodge roll + Shuffle + Rally + Vigor is a fair comparison. Let's look at what was required of a shield spammer for maximum defense pre- DB: press "1." The only way a Stamina build can even come close to such a defense is press "1, 2, 3," hit "4" every few seconds. You're comparing the ability to mitigate all incoming damage with no chance to crit with the combined effects of 3 abilities and an active dodge roll used in tandem (even when executed perfectly the stam build still takes damage). Even from an offense vs. defense point of view, shields are amazingly strong. Anyone attacking a shield spam defense has to maximize dps output: animation cancelling, CC, staying in melee range if melee, ect. Shield spammer presses "1."

If you think shuffle is a cheese defense, look at the shield spam style, haha.

Now it's not that I don't think shuffle/dodging mechanics shouldn't be addressed, but I'm not sure that's what this thread is about.
edit for tag

That would be a good start if dodge could be looked at. It's all of these qualities as a whole that I find unbalanced, I'm fine with stamina having the advantage in damage and mobility. Just not survivability as well. A couple of small tweaks could go a long way.

They are indeed very strong. But it's the combination of Vigor/Rally/Shuffle/Roll dodge that is strong. Certainly not any one skill by itself. This is the meta that has evolved because of how strong the combination is. Any changes made by ZOS to nerf said meta have to keep those skills viable when not used together as well.

I merely wished to point out that, stamina builds do have great defensive capabilities, but must slot and use at least 3 skills and time their roll dodges well to achieve the same great defensive capabilities that magicka builds achieve with shields. I do not buy into the trend that stamina offers superior defenses as well as offense. I think we are closer to balance between magicka/stmiana than we ever have been.

And even then it's not a pure comparison, because magicka builds are running shuffle...

Paraflex

I would have to agree with this

I think the op highlights the problem. Stamina builds hit harder and has better survivability due to their mobility advantage. In conclusion, Either healing is too strong, dodge rolling is to much, or damage output is too high. Stamina players should not have all three. Magicka builds have to make choices and sacrifices. Do stamina builds? The argument that 1 resource pool is weak. The meta proves that although you have 1 resource pool, you are able to still gain a significant competitive advantage with it. You can stack and throw everything into it. It synergizes better with the builds. Pvp is based on damage, ccs, and mobility.