Beyond Level 50: an endgame leveling concept

Gidorick

Now that ZOS has removed Veteran Ranks and has introduced One Tamriel, I think it’s time to discuss the possibility of leveling past 50 and how ZOS could add more levels to ESO.

This concept was originally an extension of my Tamriel United concept and since One Tamriel is coming, it can now just be an extension of the world in which we will all soon play!

Also, this concept sort of picks apart two of my previous concepts and reworks their ideas. Those threads are Perpetual Independent End Game Level Progression Concept and CP Active Passive Bar & CP Burn Concept .

TL/DR
ZOS should add individual levels to ESO regularly and make getting to those levels a competitive task. They should also add a CP Overcharge mechanic that allows player to choose between power and progression.

Topics:

• Sub Attributes
• Converting Characters & Content
• Adding Levels to current Zones & DLC
• Regular Leveling
• Champion Overcharge

Sub Attributes

ZOS should institute a new sub-attribute system that unlocks once a player reaches level 50. This would break up the core Magica, Health, and Stamina attributes into smaller specific choices. This would provide the post 50 game with two benefits.

1. More character customization
2. Mitigation of Power Creep

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Wisdom (+Max Magicka)
• Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Luck (+ Spell Critical)
• Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
• Vitality (+Max Health)
• Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
• Constitution (+Health Recovery)
• Fortitude (+Max Stamina)
• Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
• Agility (+ Armor)
• Strength (+ Weapon Damage)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Resource, Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute whatever amount it would have been raised with a regular level increase.

This player would be level 67

If a player raises all the sub attributes of one resource, their stats should be raised about the same amount that they would have been if the main attribute was raised prior to level 50. In this way, every four levels of post 50 leveling would equal out to about 1 level of pre 50 leveling, as far as stats are concerned.

This would mean that a character who used to be VR 16 would have to reach level 114 to be equal to the attribute stats they currently have as a CP 160+ character. More on how players would get to that level later.

Converting Characters
Existing characters would have their attribute points refunded to them so they could redistribute them. Until the total points spent in the main three attributes (Magicka, Health, Stamina) equals 50, players would spend their points only in the main three attributes. After the total reaches 50, players unlock the sub-attribute system and then are able to spend their points in any of the 12 available sub attributes.

Characters who currently are level 50 and have 160 CP would be converted to level 66. Characters with less than 160 CP would be converted to the appropriate level of their CP.

After this, earning levels should be character centric and should not be spread across all characters in the same way Champion Points are.

All armor, materials and enemies would also be converted in much the same way with every 10 levels of CP equaling 1 level beyond 50.

Adding Levels to current Zones & DLC

With the development of One Tamriel it is assumed that players will be downleveled to the zone they are adventuring in so every faction zone would be leveled somewhere between 1 and 50. This would leave the extra-faction areas available for leveling. Below are my suggestions for the leveling of each of the additional zones.

• Lower Craglorn : 51-52
• Upper Craglorn: 53-54
• Imperial City: 55-57
• Orsinium: 58-60
• Thieves Guild: 61-63
• Dark Brotherhood: 63-66

Each additional zone or area that is released would cover the next three levels. Players visiting zones prior to reaching the level would essentially have their power leveled to that zone, which will be the norm in One Tamriel.

Regular Leveling
This would mean that every 3 months the DLC cap could be raised by a certain amount, but this doesn’t mean that the level cap needs to be tied to DLC. Rather, I’m suggesting that the level cap be increased by 1 every month. This level increase would be an additional game content mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

This ranking buff could be anything and could change month to month. Perhaps the player’s max stats are increased by a percentage or their RNG is increased. This could affect any aspect of the game which would possibly attract different players each month.

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first however-many days (5?) could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay and some players genuinely enjoy the grind each month. This grind should NOT be the same grind that the Vet Ranks were. It should take a player about the same amount of time to reach each post-50 levels as it took them to reach each pre-50 levels. In this way the leveling experience is preserved and no one feels the frustration of a long grind.

Additionally, since the level cap is being raised each month, and ZOS has established that 1 level is equal to about 10 champion points, the Champion System cap should be raised by 10 each month as well. Since the CP cap is currently 501 and the system cap is 3600 raising the cap each month by 10 would mean that it would take about 25 years to reach system cap.

In that amount of time players would be at about level 360. While I don’t particularly care for leveling being so high, I think that it would be understandable for a 25 year old MMO to have characters at that level. Remember, because of the Sub Attributes, the effective power of those players would only be about level 127.

Adding yet another mechanic to this could complicate the monthly race to level cap in the best of ways.

Champion Overcharge
Taking the design from my CP Active Passive Bar Concept I think ZOS could add a CP Overcharge mechanic to gameplay.

Once a Champion Star is unlocked and leveled in a constellation, a player should be able to place that star in the Champion Overcharge bar. Only one Champion Star from each constellation should be allowed to be overcharged at a time. Placing a Champion Star in the Overcharge Bar will do two things:

1. Increase the effectiveness of that specific Champion Star by 25%
2. Decrease the overall XP gain of the character by 10%

This Overcharge bar would have one slot per Constellation in the Champion System.


Activating the star would be as simple as dragging and dropping the star into the astrolabe slot when viewing each constellation.


A player who places a Champion Star from each constellation in the Overcharge bar will have their XP gain decreased to 10% of their possible XP.

All XP buffs should then be placed on top of this lowered percentage.

This would mean that a player who wishes to be competitive during the monthly race to level cap will have to choose between power and XP gain. This also means that players who wish to slow their XP gain to stretch out the leveling experience can do so by overcharging their Champion Stars.

Lastly, this system should also be designed in such a way that Overcharging one Champion Star will cause all the other Stars in that Constellation to become less effective. I think a fair percentage would be 15%. In this way, it prevents players from being overpowered and encourages specialized builds. Two players could spend the exact same number of CPs in the exact same stars but they would have extremely different power profiles if they chose different stars to overcharge.

This being something that players could change on the fly would be something that would allow a player to swap from being a healer to DPS to tank quickly. ZOS could even create a way to store an "Overcharge Profile" to let us pretty much hotswap out of combat between different setups.

Overview:
Increasing player’s levels regularly is a good way to keep players playing. By adding levels ZOS would keep players coming back between DLC and by adding Sub Attributes, ZOS would battle the ever present concern of power creep. Adding a Champion overcharge would allow for a greater variety of player choice and character builds while also giving players more control over HOW their character levels.

So what do you think? Would adding levels be a boon to ESO or a hindrance to play? Is a level cap increase by 1 every month too frequent? Do you have other ideas of better ways for level increases to be introduced? Do you like the idea of the Champion Overcharge or would you like to see a similar system instituted in a different way?

Tekyn

I think that balancing issues would be a nightmare. There are a few good ideas in there though, and I hope they're at least seen.

Gidorick

Tekyn wrote: »

I think that balancing issues would be a nightmare. There are a few good ideas in there though, and I hope they're at least seen.

Which part would cause a balancing issues @Tekyn ? The Sub Attributes? That would just be an extension of the current leveling system.

The Champion Overcharge? I could see that being an issue with allowing players to have more powerful CP effects but I am not sure if it would be enough to impact balance. The max % of each star to be overcharaged would be 31.25. If ZOS felt this would be too much of a benefit they could also decrease the effectiveness of the other Champion Stars in that constellation to offset the benefit of the overcharge.

Do you have specific reasons it would cause a balancing nightmare? I think it would pretty much have the same balancing issues that we have now.

Tekyn

The impact on the individual numbers might look small, but when you open up that level of min/maxing you end up with people gaining more than they're losing. That could potentially be balanced out, but not in combination with a constantly moving stat cap (the +10 cp per month). I like everything except the auto-raising the level cap. A lot of people already have more CP than is listed, and will just automatically be at the cap when it moves anyway, which kills the leaderboard idea.

How would the current leaderboards work? Reset every month? Characters capped at a certain CP for leaderboard events? Would you give everyone cookie cutter CP loadouts if they're over the leaderboard cap?

I would really rather they just work out the entire CP thing so that it's just a soft cap based on the increasing XP cost per point.

The level cap leaderboards you suggested could potentially be a fun idea. I enjoy the way Diablo 2 and 3 do seasons, but I don't think doing a new character for seasons would work for ESO. It's too easy to power level with outside help, and you can't really split up the season and non-season characters in an MMO like this. If we had the option to flag characters for something like seasons, and then only group with other flagged people, that would be cool. I doubt they'll do all of that just for the people that like leveling new chars though.

If they were going to add anything like character flags, I'd want Hardcore characters with a separate CP pool and bank first. Call me crazy, but I enjoy being on the edge of my seat every now and then.

Roechacca

I really like that you're looking for ways to prevent power creep. It's important.

Gidorick

Tekyn wrote: »

The impact on the individual numbers might look small, but when you open up that level of min/maxing you end up with people gaining more than they're losing. That could potentially be balanced out, but not in combination with a constantly moving stat cap (the +10 cp per month). I like everything except the auto-raising the level cap. A lot of people already have more CP than is listed, and will just automatically be at the cap when it moves anyway, which kills the leaderboard idea.

How would the current leaderboards work? Reset every month? Characters capped at a certain CP for leaderboard events? Would you give everyone cookie cutter CP loadouts if they're over the leaderboard cap?

I would really rather they just work out the entire CP thing so that it's just a soft cap based on the increasing XP cost per point.

The level cap leaderboards you suggested could potentially be a fun idea. I enjoy the way Diablo 2 and 3 do seasons, but I don't think doing a new character for seasons would work for ESO. It's too easy to power level with outside help, and you can't really split up the season and non-season characters in an MMO like this. If we had the option to flag characters for something like seasons, and then only group with other flagged people, that would be cool. I doubt they'll do all of that just for the people that like leveling new chars though.

If they were going to add anything like character flags, I'd want Hardcore characters with a separate CP pool and bank first. Call me crazy, but I enjoy being on the edge of my seat every now and then.

Well @Tekyn, the leaderboard chase would be for level cap, not CP cap. So CPs would influence how quickly a player is able to reach the next level but wouldn't be tracked like the level would. A player who is NOT at CP cap could theoretically make it to the next level before someone who is. The leaderboard themselves wouldn't be tracking CPs.

I imagine the leaderboards would either reset every month, or a new leaderboard with be created every month. Keeping a record of the leaderboard could be cool and there could be other rewards for long term success on the leaderboards. We'd have a separate leaderboard for each level that is added.

The core idea behind this concept is to detach leveling from CPs... I think it's a terrible design choice for an Elder Scrolls game. CPs themselves... I like. I think they are cool addition to ESO and they give the look and feel of the Skyrim skill system. Good going ZOS!

Making so that players stop leveling and ONLY level their CPs? Very anti-elder scrolls.

Actually... I would personally prefer that each player earn their own CPs and we earn them from level one... but I try not to suggest complete and utter overhauls of the ways things are now... just additions and "developments".

I had considered making the "seasons" longer than a month and ZOS could surely do this, but with DLC being released ever quarter and me suggesting level cap increases not being attached to DLC releases... I really didn't see a good suggestion for how often level caps should increase otherwise. If it were every 3 months, might as well attach it to the DLC. A month seemed to be a pretty good interval. It's regular and easy to track.

tinythinker

I've seen some of this before. I wouldn't object to something along these lines, yet I get the feeling:

- ZOS is not particularly concerned with power-creep

Power-creep is an obvious feature of the Champion System. There has been zero indication that ZOS think this is in any way a problem, and the many proposals for trying to add balance in terms of not being able to just keep getting better at everything have received zero public interest or attention from the developers and leads.

- ZOS wants base stats to be very simple

They seem to favor skill lines and champ points and gear sets as the basis for build diversity, while attributes are kept relatively simple and easier to grasp. This lets starting players not worry at all because atts aren't so important from 1-10 and not even that much from 10-15, at which point players move on to the zone with the respec shrines. The complexity of character development increases gradually as more skill lines and abilities are unlocked, as crafting improves, and then even further at level 50 when CP are unlocked.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have more options, and many other players would as well, but they need to keep one or two things simple/consistent and the choice seems to be attributes.

susmitds

Your idea, in all practicality, is another version of the champion system and will lead to power creep even more.

Tekyn

I somehow skimmed past the part about converting current CP to character level and the raise being to base level. I like that idea even less, if only because it's really annoying when the cap shifts constantly. I would have to level each of my characters every month under that system. That's why so many of us are glad that vet levels are gone now. Leveling an alt is no longer a monumental task.

Having a level cap isn't anti-elder scrolls. The past few games you had to jury rig the jail system to level past a certain point. They just need to keep adding more ways to get skill points. Capping those is what goes against the spirit of the other ES games.

UltimaJoe777

I know we have CPs but, and I honestly don't care what it induces, I would still love to see more leveling be it going beyond Lv50 or even having a rebirth system. The only real accomplishment I feel is having had a VR16 before that was removed and that wasn't that big a feeling of accomplishment. Even now I have 315 CPs and 2 Lv50s, 2 in the 40s, 3 in the 30s and another close to 30 and these are all my characters before the new character slots let me make more and I just don't feel that accomplished. The gap between min to max is too small. It's honestly disappointing.

That being said I'm all for anything to make reaching maximum of any sort of level system tougher and more accomplished, but I know it'll never happen because Zenimax is catering to those that want to get it all quick and go PvP.

xblackroxe

I really dislike those ideas. Making some champion trees even better will make power creep even worse. Also I really love how they changed level now I don't really like making each char level extra. With having level increase every month por even every dlc will be a nightmare for gear and alts.

Dradhok

This reminds me of FFXI. They added this type of system but they didn't already have a CP system in place. I think most people were already tired of the dual progression system we had with CP and Vet Ranks. VOS isn't going to be looking for another unnecessary layer anytime soon. Prepare to see the CP cap bumped up over the next few DLCs.

nimander99

As usual you have excellent ideas @Gidorick . When I first hear about the Champion System I thought it would be similar to a Skill Tree mechanic where you would have to make meaningful choices about what abilities to affect, instead we got fill every node in every constellation until u have 3600 CP's and become the newest class in game called Faceroll.

Zinaroth

I would like to commemorate the time and effort you put into this, it's admirable.
It's way too late for me to form an opinion around your suggestion but I hope it gets attention from the right people.
If nothing else I just thought I wanted to tell you that.

Gidorick

Tekyn wrote: »

I somehow skimmed past the part about converting current CP to character level and the raise being to base level. I like that idea even less, if only because it's really annoying when the cap shifts constantly. I would have to level each of my characters every month under that system. That's why so many of us are glad that vet levels are gone now. Leveling an alt is no longer a monumental task.

Having a level cap isn't anti-elder scrolls. The past few games you had to jury rig the jail system to level past a certain point. They just need to keep adding more ways to get skill points. Capping those is what goes against the spirit of the other ES games.

I never said having a level cap is "anti-elder scrolls" I said having the leveling system be something other than levels is anti-elder scrolls. We still level vertically through the champion system.

And I just outright dismiss the argument of "but it's too haaarrrd" when it comes to having to level multiple characters. You want multiple characters? You should have to level them. If you don't want to level a bunch of characters... don't have so many. It's called making choices about how you want to spend your time. ESO offers WAY too much instant gratification. Even so... leveling 8 characters 1 level each month? Not that monumental a task @Tekyn.

Don't worry though. Everyone's precious account wide leveling system will remain intact. I'm sure ZOS would never consider this kind of leveling system. No matter the benefits.

Gidorick

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

I know we have CPs but, and I honestly don't care what it induces, I would still love to see more leveling be it going beyond Lv50 or even having a rebirth system. The only real accomplishment I feel is having had a VR16 before that was removed and that wasn't that big a feeling of accomplishment. Even now I have 315 CPs and 2 Lv50s, 2 in the 40s, 3 in the 30s and another close to 30 and these are all my characters before the new character slots let me make more and I just don't feel that accomplished. The gap between min to max is too small. It's honestly disappointing.

That being said I'm all for anything to make reaching maximum of any sort of level system tougher and more accomplished, but I know it'll never happen because Zenimax is catering to those that want to get it all quick and go PvP.

Yea @UltimaJoe777 ... I completely agree with you on your points. I think there are those of us who are being driven away from ESO by this conversion to JUST champion leveling after we reach level 50 *raises hand* and there are those that will love the system for a while and get bored with it.

Of course there will be those that like having their progression just handed to them but I don't know if those are long-term customers that will sustain ESO. Maybe they are. I just think that in the long term ZOS is going to have to do something different.

Gidorick

Zinaroth wrote: »

I would like to commemorate the time and effort you put into this, it's admirable.
It's way too late for me to form an opinion around your suggestion but I hope it gets attention from the right people.
If nothing else I just thought I wanted to tell you that.

Thanks @Zinaroth , I have always tried to suggest things that I truly believe is in the best interest for the elder scrolls online... and not in my best interest. Sure there are those that will disagree with what I suggest, there always are, but I think Elder Scrolls can be much more than it is now and I think taking inspiration from the franchise on which it is based is the best way to go about adding something new and unique to the MMO landscape.

Gidorick

Dradhok wrote: »

This reminds me of FFXI. They added this type of system but they didn't already have a CP system in place. I think most people were already tired of the dual progression system we had with CP and Vet Ranks. VOS isn't going to be looking for another unnecessary layer anytime soon. Prepare to see the CP cap bumped up over the next few DLCs.

yea @Dradhok , I know ZOS isn't looking to add any other layers anytime soon. I was actually campaigning to try to get ZOS to change the Vet Ranks to the regular levels prior to them being removed. (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept)

I know the suggestion is futile and I fully expect them to add another CP Cap. I just really REALLY detest CPs being the sole means of progression. It just seems... unfinished. Like a car riding around with primer... Oh well. NMS is out in like 6 weeks.

phaneub17_ESO

Remember, it has to be something the "average" player can grasp and understand, make it too confusing and you end up with a headache trying to explain.

Gidorick

xblackroxe wrote: »

I really dislike those ideas. Making some champion trees even better will make power creep even worse. Also I really love how they changed level now I don't really like making each char level extra. With having level increase every month por even every dlc will be a nightmare for gear and alts.

Well @xblackroxe , the concern for the character being overpowered is why I suggested that ZOS could reduce the effectiveness of all the other stars in a constellation if there is any star being overcharged... While I'm sure that would be necessary, it would make for more specialized builds. Sure the Overcharged Star gets a 25% buff, but all other stars in that constellation would get a whatever percent (15% seems good to me) nerf. That would go a long way to preventing a player from being overpowered, but more specialized.

I addressed your concern in an above post about alts, but I'll do it again. I think players wanting to level alts is a ***-poor reason to create a system that completely dismisses those of us who LIKE that our different characters are different levels. Leveling 8 characters 1 level over the course of a month wouldn't be a difficult task at all... if you play that character at ALL you'd get there. It's just one level. Not one vet rank... one regular level.

The concern over gear is legitimate... but gear would just be released with new DLC. So... let's say a DLC is released and level cap is... 92. The DLC could either cover levels 90-92 and the gear released would be level 92 gear. OR the DLC could cover level 92-94 and players would have to wait until 3 months after the DLC is released to be able to use that gear. They could grind and collect that gear over the course of the DLC and by the time the next DLC is released they can wear their new gear and start the gear chase again. There are those that would LOVE this... there are those that would not. It's good to have different activities for different "play types".

I personally think high level gear should be sellable as soon as the next level gear is available. I also believe that gear should be upgradeable to a point. Like 10 levels or so. but that is for another thread.

Kalifas

Gidorick wrote: »

Now that ZOS has removed Veteran Ranks and has introduced One Tamriel, I think it’s time to discuss the possibility of leveling past 50 and how ZOS could add more levels to ESO.

This concept was originally an extension of my Tamriel United concept and since One Tamriel is coming, it can now just be an extension of the world in which we will all soon play!

Also, this concept sort of picks apart two of my previous concepts and reworks their ideas. Those threads are Perpetual Independent End Game Level Progression Concept and CP Active Passive Bar & CP Burn Concept .

TL/DR
ZOS should add individual levels to ESO regularly and make getting to those levels a competitive task. They should also add a CP Overcharge mechanic that allows player to choose between power and progression.

Topics:

• Sub Attributes
• Converting Characters & Content
• Adding Levels to current Zones & DLC
• Regular Leveling
• Champion Overcharge

Sub Attributes

ZOS should institute a new sub-attribute system that unlocks once a player reaches level 50. This would break up the core Magica, Health, and Stamina attributes into smaller specific choices. This would provide the post 50 game with two benefits.

1. More character customization
2. Mitigation of Power Creep

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Wisdom (+Max Magicka)
• Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Luck (+ Spell Critical)
• Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
• Vitality (+Max Health)
• Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
• Constitution (+Health Recovery)
• Fortitude (+Max Stamina)
• Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
• Agility (+ Armor)
• Strength (+ Weapon Damage)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Resource, Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute whatever amount it would have been raised with a regular level increase.

This player would be level 67

If a player raises all the sub attributes of one resource, their stats should be raised about the same amount that they would have been if the main attribute was raised prior to level 50. In this way, every four levels of post 50 leveling would equal out to about 1 level of pre 50 leveling, as far as stats are concerned.

This would mean that a character who used to be VR 16 would have to reach level 114 to be equal to the attribute stats they currently have as a CP 160+ character. More on how players would get to that level later.

Converting Characters
Existing characters would have their attribute points refunded to them so they could redistribute them. Until the total points spent in the main three attributes (Magicka, Health, Stamina) equals 50, players would spend their points only in the main three attributes. After the total reaches 50, players unlock the sub-attribute system and then are able to spend their points in any of the 12 available sub attributes.

Characters who currently are level 50 and have 160 CP would be converted to level 66. Characters with less than 160 CP would be converted to the appropriate level of their CP.

After this, earning levels should be character centric and should not be spread across all characters in the same way Champion Points are.

All armor, materials and enemies would also be converted in much the same way with every 10 levels of CP equaling 1 level beyond 50.

Adding Levels to current Zones & DLC

With the development of One Tamriel it is assumed that players will be downleveled to the zone they are adventuring in so every faction zone would be leveled somewhere between 1 and 50. This would leave the extra-faction areas available for leveling. Below are my suggestions for the leveling of each of the additional zones.

• Lower Craglorn : 51-52
• Upper Craglorn: 53-54
• Imperial City: 55-57
• Orsinium: 58-60
• Thieves Guild: 61-63
• Dark Brotherhood: 63-66

Each additional zone or area that is released would cover the next three levels. Players visiting zones prior to reaching the level would essentially have their power leveled to that zone, which will be the norm in One Tamriel.

Regular Leveling
This would mean that every 3 months the DLC cap could be raised by a certain amount, but this doesn’t mean that the level cap needs to be tied to DLC. Rather, I’m suggesting that the level cap be increased by 1 every month. This level increase would be an additional game content mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

This ranking buff could be anything and could change month to month. Perhaps the player’s max stats are increased by a percentage or their RNG is increased. This could affect any aspect of the game which would possibly attract different players each month.

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first however-many days (5?) could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay and some players genuinely enjoy the grind each month. This grind should NOT be the same grind that the Vet Ranks were. It should take a player about the same amount of time to reach each post-50 levels as it took them to reach each pre-50 levels. In this way the leveling experience is preserved and no one feels the frustration of a long grind.

Additionally, since the level cap is being raised each month, and ZOS has established that 1 level is equal to about 10 champion points, the Champion System cap should be raised by 10 each month as well. Since the CP cap is currently 501 and the system cap is 3600 raising the cap each month by 10 would mean that it would take about 25 years to reach system cap.

In that amount of time players would be at about level 360. While I don’t particularly care for leveling being so high, I think that it would be understandable for a 25 year old MMO to have characters at that level. Remember, because of the Sub Attributes, the effective power of those players would only be about level 127.

Adding yet another mechanic to this could complicate the monthly race to level cap in the best of ways.

Champion Overcharge
Taking the design from my CP Active Passive Bar Concept I think ZOS could add a CP Overcharge mechanic to gameplay.

Once a Champion Star is unlocked and leveled in a constellation, a player should be able to place that star in the Champion Overcharge bar. Only one Champion Star from each constellation should be allowed to be overcharged at a time. Placing a Champion Star in the Overcharge Bar will do two things:

1. Increase the effectiveness of that specific Champion Star by 25%
2. Decrease the overall XP gain of the character by 10%

This Overcharge bar would have one slot per Constellation in the Champion System.


Activating the star would be as simple as dragging and dropping the star into the astrolabe slot when viewing each constellation.


A player who places a Champion Star from each constellation in the Overcharge bar will have their XP gain decreased to 10% of their possible XP.

All XP buffs should then be placed on top of this lowered percentage.

This would mean that a player who wishes to be competitive during the monthly race to level cap will have to choose between power and XP gain. This also means that players who wish to slow their XP gain to stretch out the leveling experience can do so by overcharging their Champion Stars.

This system could also be designed in such a way that Overcharging one Champion Star will cause all the other Stars in that Constellation to become a little less effective, but I don’t think that would be a necessary addition.

Overview:
Increasing player’s levels regularly is a good way to keep players playing. By adding levels ZOS would keep players coming back between DLC and by adding Sub Attributes, ZOS would battle the ever present concern of power creep. Adding a Champion overcharge would allow for a greater variety of player choice and character builds while also giving players more control over HOW their character levels.

So what do you think? Would adding levels be a boon to ESO or a hindrance to play? Is a level cap increase by 1 every month too frequent? Do you have other ideas of better ways for level increases to be introduced? Do you like the idea of the Champion Overcharge or would you like to see a similar system instituted in a different way?

If levels are character centric after level 50 and it raises off a global experience as in no matter what you do it raises and you get additional attributes tied to the character then it is similar to Veteran ranks.



One way that this system of yours could work is if every zone was tuned to be difficult. Champion points would be locked out when first entering the zone. Then similar to my sigil shard idea in theory, progression in that zone would slowly unlock your champion in that zone incrementally until your champion points for that zone are fully unleashed. When you go to the next progression zone, champion points are locked again for that new zone. You then slowly unlock your champions for that zone until they are fully unleashed. Rinse and repeat.

Example:

• Craglorn: Champions Locked, Level capped at 50.
• Craglorn: 25% of total Champions unlocked at 25% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Craglorn: 50% of total Champions unlocked at 50% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Craglorn: 75% of total Champions unlocked at 75% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Craglorn: 100% of total Champions unlocked at 90% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.

• Imperial City: Champions Locked, Level capped at 50.
• Imperial City: 25% of total Champions unlocked at 25% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Imperial City: 50% of total Champions unlocked at 50% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Imperial City: 75% of total Champions unlocked at 75% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.
• Imperial City: 100% of total Champions unlocked at 90% progress through that zone, level capped at 50.

And so on and so forth.

Or if the wish here is you don't want Champion Points to be the levels in the game. Then they could do my Mastery System. And the percentages on that can be tweaked until most players don't feel it grindy.

Mastery System

The Overcharge function is a grand idea. But you questioned whether something else should be penalized. I say yes it should especially in an mmorpg. If this was Elder Scrolls 6 I would say a super idea no questions asked.

Iluvrien

Gidorick wrote: »

I know the suggestion is futile and I fully expect them to add another CP Cap. I just really REALLY detest CPs being the sole means of progression. It just seems... unfinished. Like a car riding around with primer... Oh well. NMS is out in like 6 weeks.

On the other hand, I really like that CPs are detached from levels. It means that my main character can bimble around doing whatever (such as picking flowers or staring at sunsets) without even the vaguest desire to "grind another level". If he occasionally picks up a CP? Bonus. It certainly isn't a driving force though.

Gidorick

Roechacca wrote: »

I really like that you're looking for ways to prevent power creep. It's important.

susmitds wrote: »

Your idea, in all practicality, is another version of the champion system and will lead to power creep even more.

Since both @Roechacca and @susmitds feel differently about how this idea addresses power creep, I'd figure I'd respond to both at once.

This concept would actually pull players back a bit. Currently all level 50 players have what? 66 attribute points. Making their "effective level" 66.

This concept would have all players have only 50 attribute points in their core attributes and then they would distribute 16 points between their sub attributes. The "Effective" level of players at that point would then be 54. Remember it would take 4 attribute points to raise the stats as much as 1 pre-50 level did.

So players would have to level an additional 12 "effective levels" which would equate to 48 levels to get to the same attribute "level" that we are now. That's 4 years. THEN we would start to be more powerful than we are now based on attributes.

The raising of the CPs... are going to happen anyway... so there is no power creep issue that I'm suggesting that isn't going to be an issue ANYWAY. In fact, the overcharge concept addresses that by suggesting that overcharging a star could negate some of the effectiveness of other stars.

Either way, this system would dramatically slow everyone's roll but would still give players a feeling of progression and accomplishment by giving them levels to earn and new numbers to see every month. Anyone who has looked at the psychology of gaming knows that us games love those numbers.

I actually believe that was the main problem with the Vet Ranks... the numbers didn't come fast enough. We went from having to climb this XP hill to having to scale an XP mountain. It was just a bad design choice that ZOS tried to remedy with the Champion system and they ended up going WAY too far in the other direction.

Kalifas

Gidorick wrote:

I actually believe that was the main problem with the Vet Ranks... the numbers didn't come fast enough. We went from having to climb this XP hill to having to scale an XP mountain. It was just a bad design choice that ZOS tried to remedy with the Champion system and they ended up going WAY too far in the other direction.

I agree. No one wants to be behind the curve because someone play 2 years longer than them. No one who has played 2 years longer than someone else wants a new player to catch them in a few months.

Veteran ranks could have come lightning fast. But they didn't and now we have a system that makes you more powerful on a different character you didn't even advance that far on. You might be the best DragonKnight on the servers who completed all content to perfection, but that doesn't make you the best Sorcerer immediately at level 50.

Gidorick

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Remember, it has to be something the "average" player can grasp and understand, make it too confusing and you end up with a headache trying to explain.

I agree to a point @phaneub17_ESO , but sub attributes is no more confusing than any what TES has provided in the past and a "Congratulations to level 50... here are Sub Attributes! These Attributes directly upgrade these stats! is pretty easy to explain. I personally think trying to figure out how to upgrade a specific stat is MORE confusing with them being grouped as they are now.

But maybe that's just me.

Gidorick

Iluvrien wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gidorick wrote: »

I know the suggestion is futile and I fully expect them to add another CP Cap. I just really REALLY detest CPs being the sole means of progression. It just seems... unfinished. Like a car riding around with primer... Oh well. NMS is out in like 6 weeks.

On the other hand, I really like that CPs are detached from levels. It means that my main character can bimble around doing whatever (such as picking flowers or staring at sunsets) without even the vaguest desire to "grind another level". If he occasionally picks up a CP? Bonus. It certainly isn't a driving force though.

I completely agree @Iluvrien about CPs being detached from levels. I actually adore that system. I liked having these little extra pats on the back as I'm playing. They're like little steps up the mountain.

What I'm suggesting with adding levels back in is kind of like adding stairs to a staircase. With just the champion system we just have an infinite staircase...

adding levels would give us little intermediate plateaus to give us that feeling of accomplishment!

It's about the psychology of leveling of the feel of the "grind". This was the reason Vet Ranks failed... players were climbing the stairs of levels and then BAM...



Cliff.

Gidorick

nimander99 wrote: »

As usual you have excellent ideas @Gidorick . When I first hear about the Champion System I thought it would be similar to a Skill Tree mechanic where you would have to make meaningful choices about what abilities to affect, instead we got fill every node in every constellation until u have 3600 CP's and become the newest class in game called Faceroll.

Thanks @nimander99 ... the homogony of power is something I was very concerned with when it came to the champion system. I think, with ZOS having caps (501 currently) on the 3600 total we will avoid that for quite some time. Hopefully by then they will introduce more stars for us to spend our CPs on.

In the end we really should have less CPs possible to earn than there are stars to spend them in... like 25% or more less.

But they have time to sort all that out.

Tekyn

You asked, I answered. No need to get all snide about it. I still hope some of this gets incorporated, I just don't agree with an automated shifting level cap.

Gidorick

Sorry @Tekyn , I'm just frustrated at the lack of end game character levels.

Rereading my response I see that I was being a bit too... dramatic in my response.

I'm genuinely curious though, what motivated you to level multiple characters to level 50 in the first place?

clayandaudrey_ESO

They (ZOS) have worked really hard to remove levels and challenge and fun from this game. Not sure what you are suggesting is possible with their current take on the game @Gidorick. I like your thought process though.

Gidorick

Lol. I love how you phrased that @clayandaudrey_ESO.