Beyond Level 50: an endgame leveling concept

Tekyn

Gidorick wrote: »

Sorry @Tekyn , I'm just frustrated at the lack of end game character levels.

Rereading my response I see that I was being a bit too... dramatic in my response.

I'm genuinely curious though, what motivated you to level multiple characters to level 50 in the first place?

Thanks.

I mostly start new characters to try other styles of play. If the game had all skills available like the single player ES games I would never have an alt. My NB has always been my favorite, but that's more out of nostalgia than a like for the skills. I started a melee sorc because I realized that on my console NB, the only slot on my main bar that was an NB ability was Mark Target. I earned most of my CP on console after the account split, so I'm kind of starting over here on PC.

While I don't play competitively, I do like to theorycraft and I do keep an eye on the endgame goings on. The game has gotten a lot better. What drove me away originally was having the veteran ranks with playing through the other two factions being the only way to get them. That was grueling, especially if you had characters on different factions. The console release brought me back long enough to level a new char and get some CP. I've been back on PC for a couple weeks now.

I'm actually surprised that they haven't done any major revisions to the CP system already. It definitely feels stagnant. You don't get a CP and go "Oh boy, what new and exciting upgrade do I get now?!". It's more like a Ben Stein voice going "That's great. Just 200 more of the same thing to go..."

xeNNNNN

Gidorick wrote: »

Tekyn wrote: »

I think that balancing issues would be a nightmare. There are a few good ideas in there though, and I hope they're at least seen.

Which part would cause a balancing issues @Tekyn ? The Sub Attributes? That would just be an extension of the current leveling system.

The Champion Overcharge? I could see that being an issue with allowing players to have more powerful CP effects but I am not sure if it would be enough to impact balance. The max % of each star to be overcharaged would be 31.25. If ZOS felt this would be too much of a benefit they could also decrease the effectiveness of the other Champion Stars in that constellation to offset the benefit of the overcharge.

Do you have specific reasons it would cause a balancing nightmare? I think it would pretty much have the same balancing issues that we have now.

I think the worry here is the battle leveling scaling in PvP and just how well each addition preforms to end game.. Im no hardcore PvPer myself but if the scaling is impacted by these additions you'll have the raid leading guilds on a tantrum which usually heralds a nerf of some sort as PvPers tend to be very annoyingly loud. No offense guys lol you know its true.

Gidorick

@Tekyn I completely agree about the vet ranks. While I would like to see regular levels continue in ESO If my ONLY choices were Vet Ranks or CP leveling... I'd choose CP leveling all the way.

I myself play more of a "roleplaying" type game. I have a character that will never EVER play through the main Thieve's Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests. They would feel as if they were dishonoring their family and their people by doing so.

At one point I would have disagreed about the "classless" idea for ESO but @Kalifas really changed my mind about that in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272499/classcrafting-concept/p1

Tekyn

I will choose my quest options based on my individual characters, but I wont skip content altogether. I guess it helps that my main is a Nightblade and rogue-type anyway.

And yeah, that classless thread looks very good.

Rev Rielle

I don't think we need another level of complexity. Leveling to 50 then Champion Points are enough.

I think we need to move away from this notion/dependence on having to continually level our characters to be playing/enjoying the game.

Jsmalls

I respect the time and dedication you put into that presentation. But don't think ZOS is even considering any MASSIVE rehauls on their leveling system. They just did away with Vet levels and there said they were interested in increasing character strength by moving gear past CP 160 rank, as well as gradually increasing the cap, but even though in my opinion I enjoy continuous progression based on my performance, I don't think they like the idea, hence the CP cap.

Just my .02

Gidorick

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I don't think we need another level of complexity. Leveling to 50 then Champion Points are enough.

I think we need to move away from this notion/dependence on having to continually level our characters to be playing/enjoying the game.

There are those of us who don't feel as if Champion Points are enough @Rev Rielle There are some good discussion points here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269327/im-not-feeling-the-champion-level/p1

Personally... It takes all motivation out of playing my main. Perhaps once One Tamriel launches, I'll feel motivated to play him again. For now, though, not so much.

Gidorick

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

I respect the time and dedication you put into that presentation. But don't think ZOS is even considering any MASSIVE rehauls on their leveling system. They just did away with Vet levels and there said they were interested in increasing character strength by moving gear past CP 160 rank, as well as gradually increasing the cap, but even though in my opinion I enjoy continuous progression based on my performance, I don't think they like the idea, hence the CP cap.

Just my .02

Yea, I know they aren't @jyates214b14_ESO , There were those of us that have been ringing this bell for a long while now. I have long been asking that ZOS just turn Vet Ranks to levels. The first thread I made about this was back in May 2015. So it's not like this is a new request.

There is a good discussion about CPs not being "enough" for a main leveling system here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269327/im-not-feeling-the-champion-level/p1

Saltypretzels

I used to write long stuff like this in forums too. Then I realized that the game designers don't really care what any of us think. They definitely have their own ideas where things should go. And that is fine. This is their game ultimately, they spend their lives on it.

If you want to design your own systems like this, you really just need to make your own game.

Gidorick

I enjoy writing these long winded "fan-design" concepts @Saltypretzels ... they're fun to me.

I accepted LONG ago that ZOS doesn't give two guar poops about threads like these. That doesn't mean we can't have fun debating and arguing over the possibilities. Right?

Rev Rielle

Gidorick wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I don't think we need another level of complexity. Leveling to 50 then Champion Points are enough.

I think we need to move away from this notion/dependence on having to continually level our characters to be playing/enjoying the game.

There are those of us who don't feel as if Champion Points are enough @Rev Rielle There are some good discussion points here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269327/im-not-feeling-the-champion-level/p1

Personally... It takes all motivation out of playing my main. Perhaps once One Tamriel launches, I'll feel motivated to play him again. For now, though, not so much.

I'm aware. There are those of us that think it's a bad idea also. Many players feel liberated once they reach the 'level cap' in a game, they feel they're released from the 'grind to get to the level cap', a cap/progression that so many seem to judge a player against.

Personally, leveling should be something that happens naturally whilst playing the game, I don't think it should be the reason you play a game. The less emphasis on it the better. ESO certainly isn't a level-centric game, and changes in the future will only enhance this. Your suggestions I feel will be counter productive to that.

Gidorick

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I'm aware. There are those of us that think it's a bad idea also. Many players feel liberated once they reach the 'level cap' in a game, they feel they're released from the 'grind to get to the level cap', a cap/progression that so many seem to judge a player against.

Personally, leveling should be something that happens naturally whilst playing the game, I don't think it should be the reason you play a game. The less emphasis on it the better. ESO certainly isn't a level-centric game, and changes in the future will only enhance this. Your suggestions I feel will be counter productive to that.

I tend to agree with the playstyle you prefer @Rev Rielle . That is more along the lines of what I like in a game... any game. I think the race to level cap is kind of silly, but everyone enjoys games differently and I think ESO should support these different types of play

Those that like the grind, that enjoy the race to end game would enjoy the monthly leaderboards and the race to level cap. Those that don't enjoy that would get to level cap by going through the DLC that was released that quarter.

I just think ZOS is alienating a portion of their customer base by not having levels beyond 50 and I think a regular level increase not attached to DLCs would be a unique approach.

And while the DLC would have levels that is again to accommodate different playstyles. I believe we should be able to turn off battle leveling and zones and DLC "at level". This would accommodate players who want content to be more challenging and enjoy the progression and those that do not enjoy the progression could keep battle leveling on and be leveled to the zone.

Again, I simply feel that Character Progression sans levels in an Elder Scrolls title just doesn't feel right. This shouldn't be an Action game... it should be a Role Playing Game and those have levels and champion points (as awesome as they are) aren't levels. Even though I don't personally prefer the race to level cap, as I play I like to see my level progress and like to feel like my character is getting stronger and with Champion points my ONE character doesn't get stronger, they all do... and that's fine for a tangential progression system, but not for the MAIN leveling system post 50.

I get that others disagree with me... and it's those that have differing opinions than mine that ZOS is catering to. I just think that the folks at ZOS, like @ZOS_RichLambert , need to know there are those of us that aren't happy with the level 50 cut off and where we're left with a leveling system that is shared among all our characters.

Shadesofkin

I liked reading this, but I'm good with how it's going. If that changes Ill get behind this.

Gidorick

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I liked reading this, but I'm good with how it's going. If that changes Ill get behind this.

heh... more of us needs to be more like @Shadesofkin , especially me.

DaveMoeDee

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Remember, it has to be something the "average" player can grasp and understand, make it too confusing and you end up with a headache trying to explain.

Yeah. I appreciate the OP's effort, but I want to keep things simple.

Rev Rielle

Gidorick wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I'm aware. There are those of us that think it's a bad idea also. Many players feel liberated once they reach the 'level cap' in a game, they feel they're released from the 'grind to get to the level cap', a cap/progression that so many seem to judge a player against.

Personally, leveling should be something that happens naturally whilst playing the game, I don't think it should be the reason you play a game. The less emphasis on it the better. ESO certainly isn't a level-centric game, and changes in the future will only enhance this. Your suggestions I feel will be counter productive to that.

I tend to agree with the playstyle you prefer @Rev Rielle . That is more along the lines of what I like in a game... any game. I think the race to level cap is kind of silly, but everyone enjoys games differently and I think ESO should support these different types of play

Those that like the grind, that enjoy the race to end game would enjoy the monthly leaderboards and the race to level cap. Those that don't enjoy that would get to level cap by going through the DLC that was released that quarter.

I just think ZOS is alienating a portion of their customer base by not having levels beyond 50 and I think a regular level increase not attached to DLCs would be a unique approach.

And while the DLC would have levels that is again to accommodate different playstyles. I believe we should be able to turn off battle leveling and zones and DLC "at level". This would accommodate players who want content to be more challenging and enjoy the progression and those that do not enjoy the progression could keep battle leveling on and be leveled to the zone.

Again, I simply feel that Character Progression sans levels in an Elder Scrolls title just doesn't feel right. This shouldn't be an Action game... it should be a Role Playing Game and those have levels and champion points (as awesome as they are) aren't levels. Even though I don't personally prefer the race to level cap, as I play I like to see my level progress and like to feel like my character is getting stronger and with Champion points my ONE character doesn't get stronger, they all do... and that's fine for a tangential progression system, but not for the MAIN leveling system post 50.

I get that others disagree with me... and it's those that have differing opinions than mine that ZOS is catering to. I just think that the folks at ZOS, like @ZOS_RichLambert , need to know there are those of us that aren't happy with the level 50 cut off and where we're left with a leveling system that is shared among all our characters.

A quote from John Lennon comes to mind:
“Trying to please everybody is impossible - if you did that, you'd end up in the middle with nobody liking you. You've just got to make the decision about what you think is your best, and do it.”

Nothing's perfect, and any changes as discussed in this thread would likely only seek to create a new group of players that are unhappy with the changes. Resulting, I think, in no overall net progress.

DaveMoeDee

Gidorick wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

I respect the time and dedication you put into that presentation. But don't think ZOS is even considering any MASSIVE rehauls on their leveling system. They just did away with Vet levels and there said they were interested in increasing character strength by moving gear past CP 160 rank, as well as gradually increasing the cap, but even though in my opinion I enjoy continuous progression based on my performance, I don't think they like the idea, hence the CP cap.

Just my .02

Yea, I know they aren't @jyates214b14_ESO , There were those of us that have been ringing this bell for a long while now. I have long been asking that ZOS just turn Vet Ranks to levels. The first thread I made about this was back in May 2015. So it's not like this is a new request.

There is a good discussion about CPs not being "enough" for a main leveling system here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269327/im-not-feeling-the-champion-level/p1

There isn't really a point to levels past 50 unless it is because you want people to level throughout cadwell's gold/silver and Craglorn. If you are no longer trying to make people complete all of that on each character, than levels don't really make sense beyond what you project is needed to finish the main story.

VR was the best approach back when they wanted everyone to do the Cadwell's stuff. Continuing the normal rate of level accrual would have been horrible, with max level ending up over 150. Imagine trying to make dungeons that make sense for level 51 and level 150 players. Leveling needed to be slow -- or not at all.