"Why does Cropsford exist in the 2nd Era?" and other bizarre anachronisms

ShedsHisTail

Gonna keep this shortish because I'm on my mobile...

It's not really clear when, why, or even if Dagoth Ur created Corpus. All we really know about that is that he's more than willing to use it toward his own devices and seems to be the only one, so it's mostly associated with the Sixth House.

As to the issue of transporting corpus victims and how "insane" it is, there is in-game precedence for the collection and relocation of corprus victims to the Corprusarium in Morrowind, so it's at least less risky to move them all to one place than leave them to wander.

If there is or was some manner of unexplained corprus outbreak in the Craglorn area, an area where all kinds of wonky stuff is going down, it might make prefect sense to gather them up.

Shunravi

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gonna keep this shortish because I'm on my mobile...

It's not really clear when, why, or even if Dagoth Ur created Corpus. All we really know about that is that he's more than willing to use it toward his own devices and seems to be the only one, so it's mostly associated with the Sixth House.

As to the issue of transporting corpus victims and how "insane" it is, there is in-game precedence for the collection and relocation of corprus victims to the Corprusarium in Morrowind, so it's at least less risky to move them all to one place than leave them to wander.

If there is or was some manner of unexplained corprus outbreak in the Craglorn area, an area where all kinds of wonky stuff is going down, it might make prefect sense to gather them up.

Gather em up and put em away. Plus boethia is overseeing the whole thing, there could be daedric intervention involved in making contact.

RealLifeRedguard

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gonna keep this shortish because I'm on my mobile...

It's not really clear when, why, or even if Dagoth Ur created Corpus. All we really know about that is that he's more than willing to use it toward his own devices and seems to be the only one, so it's mostly associated with the Sixth House.

As to the issue of transporting corpus victims and how "insane" it is, there is in-game precedence for the collection and relocation of corprus victims to the Corprusarium in Morrowind, so it's at least less risky to move them all to one place than leave them to wander.

If there is or was some manner of unexplained corprus outbreak in the Craglorn area, an area where all kinds of wonky stuff is going down, it might make prefect sense to gather them up.

Still, there's absolutely no evidence that he created corprus to defeat the dwemer. Corprus didn't exist until long after the dwemer disappeared, and all the evidence we have suggests that House Dagoth was obsessed with the dwemer and similar to them in a lot of ways.

Corprus is Dagoth-Ur broadcasting his "divine message" across Morrowind. It's carried in the ash of Red Mountain.

The corprusarium itself was a massive outlier. That's the point of it. It was a semi-secret laboratory run by one of the most powerful wizard-lords in the East. The Tribunal Temple seemed to tolerate it (even asking you to send someone there at one point), but in general the dunmer as a people are incredibly skeptical and fearful of disease and mental illness. The concept of a disease that causes dementia and degenerates your body created by their literal devil is reason enough not to want anything to do with corprus creatures, let alone transporting them to an arena.

I can't really see anyone wanting to be anywhere near anything that may even possibly be related to corprus in any way. I definitely can't see the Tribunal, who at this point in the series are insanely powerful gods, to allow corprus to possibly be spread further. It really diminishes the disease, and a major part of Morrowind in general, to have people treating it so casually. Corprus is basically contagious god-cancer. It's one of the most feared and dangerous illnesses to ever exist.

ShedsHisTail

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gonna keep this shortish because I'm on my mobile...

It's not really clear when, why, or even if Dagoth Ur created Corpus. All we really know about that is that he's more than willing to use it toward his own devices and seems to be the only one, so it's mostly associated with the Sixth House.

As to the issue of transporting corpus victims and how "insane" it is, there is in-game precedence for the collection and relocation of corprus victims to the Corprusarium in Morrowind, so it's at least less risky to move them all to one place than leave them to wander.

If there is or was some manner of unexplained corprus outbreak in the Craglorn area, an area where all kinds of wonky stuff is going down, it might make prefect sense to gather them up.

Still, there's absolutely no evidence that he created corprus to defeat the dwemer. Corprus didn't exist until long after the dwemer disappeared, and all the evidence we have suggests that House Dagoth was obsessed with the dwemer and similar to them in a lot of ways.

Corprus is Dagoth-Ur broadcasting his "divine message" across Morrowind. It's carried in the ash of Red Mountain.

Dagoth Ur was the one who started the war against the Dwemer which culminated in their disappearance. Dagoth Ur was the one who seized Kagrenacs tools in the First Era and made himself immortal by binding himself to heart of Lorkhan. He was eventually defeated and presumed dead by Nerevar and the Tribunal, but clear just went into hiding until he could rise again in the Second Era.

At some point between 1E 700 (The Battle of Red Mountain) and 2E 882 (Dagoth's Return) the blight was developed as a means of spreading Dagoth Ur's influence. Hence the reason the Tribunal constructed the Ghost Fence to contain it.

You're right, there is no evidence to suggest the blight or corprus was used to defeat the Dwemer. Like I said when I wrote it, I was working from memory and it has been a long time since I spent any time with the subject; that was an error on my part. However, since Dagoth Ur went into hiding for upwards of 3,000 years, there's no telling what he was up to. Could have been travelling the world performing experiments, seeking out new technologies.

Or maybe he was broken and beaten and just hiding in a cave somewhere and the presence of corpus in Craglorn is unrelated to him. Like you said, it's more of a curse, a "Divine Disease" than any manner of traditional ailment. It's possible some other power has created something very similar. 3,000 years is a long time without a lot of answers.

The corprusarium itself was a massive outlier. That's the point of it. It was a semi-secret laboratory run by one of the most powerful wizard-lords in the East. The Tribunal Temple seemed to tolerate it (even asking you to send someone there at one point), but in general the dunmer as a people are incredibly skeptical and fearful of disease and mental illness. The concept of a disease that causes dementia and degenerates your body created by their literal devil is reason enough not to want anything to do with corprus creatures, let alone transporting them to an arena.

I can't really see anyone wanting to be anywhere near anything that may even possibly be related to corprus in any way. I definitely can't see the Tribunal, who at this point in the series are insanely powerful gods, to allow corprus to possibly be spread further. It really diminishes the disease, and a major part of Morrowind in general, to have people treating it so casually. Corprus is basically contagious god-cancer. It's one of the most feared and dangerous illnesses to ever exist.

Outlier or not, the fact is that the philosophy of dealing with the Corprus Curse is containment. Either behind the Ghost Fence or in the Corprusarium. The creatures are contagious, hostile, and effectively immortal. You simply can't let them run loose; regardless of your feelings about disease or mental illness. My only point in bringing up the Corprusarium was to show that transporting corprus creatures is not impossible or insane, that it has been done, and that containment seems to be the preferred method of dealing with it.

But we're not really talking about the Dunmer here, we're talking about Craglorn and the Dragonstar Arena; points beyond Morrowind that the Tribunal has no real control of. I mean, really, it'll be another 300 years or so before Dagoth Ur returns and unleashes the Blight on Morrowind. For all we know he got the idea from whatever is happening in Craglorn. You have to admit there's a certain aesthetic similarity between Dagoth Ur's look and some of the beasties in Craglorn, and there's more than a little resemblance between the Serpent (Sanctum Ophidia) and Dagoth's own "new god" Akulakhan.

But, again, I know you're more interested in poo-pooing on everything than theory crafting; so I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears. Just like my argument that ash yams don't need ash to grow and can be exported from their point of cultivation.

Morimizo

How about, Ebonheart was a castle to the west of Vivec on Vvardenfell, not on mainland Morrowind as a city. Is that explained?

RealLifeRedguard

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gonna keep this shortish because I'm on my mobile...

It's not really clear when, why, or even if Dagoth Ur created Corpus. All we really know about that is that he's more than willing to use it toward his own devices and seems to be the only one, so it's mostly associated with the Sixth House.

As to the issue of transporting corpus victims and how "insane" it is, there is in-game precedence for the collection and relocation of corprus victims to the Corprusarium in Morrowind, so it's at least less risky to move them all to one place than leave them to wander.

If there is or was some manner of unexplained corprus outbreak in the Craglorn area, an area where all kinds of wonky stuff is going down, it might make prefect sense to gather them up.

Still, there's absolutely no evidence that he created corprus to defeat the dwemer. Corprus didn't exist until long after the dwemer disappeared, and all the evidence we have suggests that House Dagoth was obsessed with the dwemer and similar to them in a lot of ways.

Corprus is Dagoth-Ur broadcasting his "divine message" across Morrowind. It's carried in the ash of Red Mountain.

Dagoth Ur was the one who started the war against the Dwemer which culminated in their disappearance. Dagoth Ur was the one who seized Kagrenacs tools in the First Era and made himself immortal by binding himself to heart of Lorkhan. He was eventually defeated and presumed dead by Nerevar and the Tribunal, but clear just went into hiding until he could rise again in the Second Era.

At some point between 1E 700 (The Battle of Red Mountain) and 2E 882 (Dagoth's Return) the blight was developed as a means of spreading Dagoth Ur's influence. Hence the reason the Tribunal constructed the Ghost Fence to contain it.

You're right, there is no evidence to suggest the blight or corprus was used to defeat the Dwemer. Like I said when I wrote it, I was working from memory and it has been a long time since I spent any time with the subject; that was an error on my part. However, since Dagoth Ur went into hiding for upwards of 3,000 years, there's no telling what he was up to. Could have been travelling the world performing experiments, seeking out new technologies.

Or maybe he was broken and beaten and just hiding in a cave somewhere and the presence of corpus in Craglorn is unrelated to him. Like you said, it's more of a curse, a "Divine Disease" than any manner of traditional ailment. It's possible some other power has created something very similar. 3,000 years is a long time without a lot of answers.

The corprusarium itself was a massive outlier. That's the point of it. It was a semi-secret laboratory run by one of the most powerful wizard-lords in the East. The Tribunal Temple seemed to tolerate it (even asking you to send someone there at one point), but in general the dunmer as a people are incredibly skeptical and fearful of disease and mental illness. The concept of a disease that causes dementia and degenerates your body created by their literal devil is reason enough not to want anything to do with corprus creatures, let alone transporting them to an arena.

I can't really see anyone wanting to be anywhere near anything that may even possibly be related to corprus in any way. I definitely can't see the Tribunal, who at this point in the series are insanely powerful gods, to allow corprus to possibly be spread further. It really diminishes the disease, and a major part of Morrowind in general, to have people treating it so casually. Corprus is basically contagious god-cancer. It's one of the most feared and dangerous illnesses to ever exist.

Outlier or not, the fact is that the philosophy of dealing with the Corprus Curse is containment. Either behind the Ghost Fence or in the Corprusarium. The creatures are contagious, hostile, and effectively immortal. You simply can't let them run loose; regardless of your feelings about disease or mental illness. My only point in bringing up the Corprusarium was to show that transporting corprus creatures is not impossible or insane, that it has been done, and that containment seems to be the preferred method of dealing with it.

But we're not really talking about the Dunmer here, we're talking about Craglorn and the Dragonstar Arena; points beyond Morrowind that the Tribunal has no real control of. I mean, really, it'll be another 300 years or so before Dagoth Ur returns and unleashes the Blight on Morrowind. For all we know he got the idea from whatever is happening in Craglorn. You have to admit there's a certain aesthetic similarity between Dagoth Ur's look and some of the beasties in Craglorn, and there's more than a little resemblance between the Serpent (Sanctum Ophidia) and Dagoth's own "new god" Akulakhan.

But, again, I know you're more interested in poo-pooing on everything than theory crafting; so I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears. Just like my argument that ash yams don't need ash to grow and can be exported from their point of cultivation.

We're clearly in a stalemate here because we're coming at this from different angles.

You can make anything make sense in game if you hand-wave enough, come up with convenient lore, and suspend your disbelief enough. Sometimes this is fine, sometimes it ends up being canon, but I'm not trying to argue against that. I agree with you here.

I'm saying that from an out-of-universe perspective, Zenimax keeps lazily applying the Elder Scrolls lore, throwing things together that don't make much sense, forgetting or simply not knowing where things are, should be, or the time period in which they belong, and when you look at it altogether it's pretty astounding. I mean...they pointed the Imperial City the wrong way, dude. How do you even accomplish that?

Each of these "problems" are not problems at all if you look at them in a vacuum. Like you keep proving, you can easily come up with convenient explanations or theories to explain why these things that don't make sense can be justified. Again, you are correct.

But when you put all of these dozens upon dozens of questionable decisions together, and combine it with Zenimax's determination to tone down, de-exotify, and take the color out of the world, it makes me feel as though Zenimax doesn't care about the world of Nirn, or at least the crazy, bizarre, unique version of Nirn I fell in love with, and instead want to focus on a safer, more generic, more mundane world that I can find anywhere else.

I wonder if this is how Lord of the Rings fanatics felt about Peter Jackson's movies, or Star Wars fanatics (which I also am but not to the same extent) felt when the Phantom Menace came out. I always scoffed at those people too, until it happened to a world that I obsess over. It's just sad to see the version of the world I fell in love with vanishing.

ShedsHisTail

Morimizo wrote: »

How about, Ebonheart was a castle to the west of Vivec on Vvardenfell, not on mainland Morrowind as a city. Is that explained?

Ebonheart is easy... There's two of them.
There's Ebonheart city on the Morrowind mainland, and Ebonheart Castle, built later on the island of Vvardenfell.

@RealLifeRedguard Yeah, sounds like you and I need to agree to disagree.
If you take an out-of-universe perspective on these things, yeah, I can see where in bulk they'd be distracting. However, if you're approaching it from an out-of-universe perspective, you've already broken your immersion before you've begun looking at it. You're starting from "out-of-universe." I prefer to start "in-universe" and examine possibilities.

RealLifeRedguard

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Morimizo wrote: »

How about, Ebonheart was a castle to the west of Vivec on Vvardenfell, not on mainland Morrowind as a city. Is that explained?

Ebonheart is easy... There's two of them.
There's Ebonheart city on the Morrowind mainland, and Ebonheart Castle, built later on the island of Vvardenfell.

@RealLifeRedguard Yeah, sounds like you and I need to agree to disagree.

Yeah, there actually are two Ebonhearts in Morrowind. The Vvardenfell one and Old Ebonheart.

And it's not even that we're disagreeing. We're talking about similar yet different things.

ShedsHisTail

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

those aren't lore inconsistencies, or anachronism, that's just the writers failing to account for that contingency. So crossing that out.

Isn't that even worse? The point here is that the writers, while talented in general, are sloppy when it comes to respecting the world of Tamriel.

Also, wanted to address this.

I don't see this as sloppy. I see this as a limitation of game mechanics. Every quest has way more possible solutions than we, as players, are actually given for completing them. In some of those cases that solution might be to use our own natural vampiric abilities, if we have them, to solve the problem.

I can't even count how many times I've reached the end of a quest and thought, "Gosh, I wish I could have resolved that differently." But I can't expect the writers to read my mind or account for every possible choice a player might make or wish to make.

It's not sloppy writing, it's not careless, it's a game mechanic an system limitation.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Nothing more than Uncle Sheo messing with your mind.

All the none lore is, actually.
They MAKE you believe you're in Tamriel, and that you actually beat the Daedra Molag Ball...
But it's just Sheo illusion...

RealLifeRedguard

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Nothing more than Uncle Sheo messing with your mind.

All the none lore is, actually.
They MAKE you believe you're in Tamriel, and that you actually beat the Daedra Molag Ball...
But it's just Sheo illusion...

At this point I'd be willing to buy it.

ShedsHisTail

Oh, also, I did some digging and I'm about 90% confident that the City of Blacklight is built on what we currently know as Bleakrock Isle.

If you compare this Second Era map which matches the current zone lines:
http://esomap.uesp.net/

To this Oblivion Era map:
http://en.uesp.net/w/images/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg

You'll see that simply draining that bay between Eastmarch and Bleakrock gives you a near exact match. Also, it mean that sometime between 2E 582 (ESO) and 3E 433 (Oblivion), the Province of Morrowind captured and incorporated the ruins of Skuldafn from Skyrim; or at least that's how they're drawing their borders.

The problem is that Solsthiem is misplaced on one of the maps and that throws everything out of whack. If you ignore Solsthiem and just use the coastline for reference, it's pretty clear.

How it occurred that this "sea" was drained is up for debate, there's very little documented lore for what went on in this region between ESO and Arena, but it's pretty clear that these newly created low-lands became the trade route known as the Dunmeth Pass. This explains the absence of Blacklight on 2nd Era maps and the absence of Bleakrock Isle on all 3d and 4th era maps.