"Why does Cropsford exist in the 2nd Era?" and other bizarre anachronisms

Whatzituyah

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things" being serious though when did that happen to create Sheogorath?

Shunravi

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things"

Um what? Yea, it happened already at the end of the first era. It's not going to happen again untill the end of the second (quite a few years from now.)

Whatzituyah

Shunravi wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things"

Um what? Yea, it happened already at the end of the first era. It's not going to happen again untill the end of the second (quite a few years from now.)

I know that didn't occur to till now that its not going to happen for awhile.

Shunravi

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things"

Um what? Yea, it happened already at the end of the first era. It's not going to happen again untill the end of the second (quite a few years from now.)

I know that didn't occur to till now that its not going to happen for awhile.

Aye.

Keep in mind something though. With the shivering isles, we deal with a being who's express purpose is insanity, depravity, and creativity. Not every one of his conquests will be as simple as telling a proud mage that he's going to do something to him sometime and then watch him spiral out of control with fear. He just might decide to craft an elaborate playground to drive another powerful mortal insane. How much can you really trust in that dlc?

I mean, you leave the dlc believing you are the madgod himself. And what can you actually do with that mantle? And who acknowledges it?

Minno

You'd be surprised what happens in 30 years never mind 100+. The town was ransacked so many times I'm not surprised texts were not left behind to record the events in exact detail.

It's possible nature took back the foundations, and or other people took the stones (most likely goblins to help fortify their lairs. )

Enodoc

Shunravi wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things"

Um what? Yea, it happened already at the end of the first era. It's not going to happen again untill the end of the second (quite a few years from now.)

I wonder at that. Why should events in a realm of Oblivion depend on the Tamrielic timeline of Eras? I'm inclined to believe that it was just a coincidence that the end of the Third Era coincided with the end of a Shivering Isles era. Based on in-game sources in SI, an "era" in that realm always lasts 1000 years.

HeroOfNone

I think another thing to consider is people lie.

You think an guy named Rorik wouldn't be vain enough to claim a settlement was named after him? It could have easily been the other way around and he was named after the town.

As for Cropsford, if previously destroyed and rebuilt, could very well share the same name. If it's purpose was to grow crops and someone had a bit of history to the area, it could have easily been suggested. Just like so many towns named "something falls" when near a waterfall.

And hey, town names repeat as well. Springfield, Clinton, Madidon, Franklin, Washington, and more all repeated multiple times over the US.

Wrathmane

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

500 Years..... I believe the events of ESO take place in the 2nd Era........ which is alot more than 500 years from the events of Oblivion.

WardenofArcherus

According to this lorebook, it is indeed every 1000 years.

Wrathmane wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

500 Years..... I believe the events of ESO take place in the 2nd Era........ which is alot more than 500 years from the events of Oblivion.

About 747 years I believe.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

It's not anything to be with the Dragon Break TES games were all made by different companies which have very little lore of the original game. Having played every single game is the series the ways zones are described and how they are when a game in made there is wildly different.

When you visited Skyrim the first time is was snow covered and filled with things that would make the ones living there War Like. This was the first Skyrim and the one you read about in every game. But when TES V: Skyrim drops you open to a green forest with running water, little snow outside of snowy areas the whole place munis the area the Reachmen live.

This is true of every game the lore of this game only matters to the player every dev team gets close but ignore the core of many races and places.

Shunravi

Enodoc wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Also in the Shivering Isle expansion of Oblivion...

Sheogorath was Jyggalag because of a curse and is free once every era known as the Grey March

will this happen in ESO?

No. We're not at the end of an Era in ESO, so it won't be happening.

Yeah I guess your right and I think Sheogorath's existence means it already happened... *points* Hey look its the dragon break! "I see that excuse all over the forums about lore breaking things"

Um what? Yea, it happened already at the end of the first era. It's not going to happen again untill the end of the second (quite a few years from now.)

I wonder at that. Why should events in a realm of Oblivion depend on the Tamrielic timeline of Eras? I'm inclined to believe that it was just a coincidence that the end of the Third Era coincided with the end of a Shivering Isles era. Based on in-game sources in SI, an "era" in that realm always lasts 1000 years.

Yea, good point. Really just painting the idea.

@Enodoc, if I may postulate here. Would you agree the nature of the mundus is to be limited? The Aedra being bound to it and limited by it by the rules and conditions of its creation? The god of time being bound to it like this would then mean he only holds sway over the time directly in and relating to the mundus.

Heres an analogy. Think of time being a great loom. Elder scrolls are like the warp threads, fixed, a foundation, the physical manifestation of a framework. The mundus (guided in the pattern by Akatosh?) is like the shuttle, dragging the weft thread of, well, history. Beyond that maybe the daedra aren't even strictly part of the pattern, but insert themselves into it at times, completely independent except for those times.


Thoughts I guess..

Ritzey01

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Is there some timey-wimey stuff of which I'm unaware?

I see what you did there. I think its wibbly wobbly also :-)

Thrasher91604

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Shunravi

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

Victus

Ok so looking at the original dialogue, all they say is "We plan to call it Cropsford". I can certainly see when playing Oblivion that maybe they just came up with the name, but looking back now how do you know why they planned to call it that? It's very plausible that they knew/heard of it's history and decided to keep the name.

Simple enough.

Tryxus

Victus wrote: »

Ok so looking at the original dialogue, all they say is "We plan to call it Cropsford". I can certainly see when playing Oblivion that maybe they just came up with the name, but looking back now how do you know why they planned to call it that? It's very plausible that they knew/heard of it's history and decided to keep the name.

Simple enough.

True dat

Just because they said that they plan on naming it so, doesn't mean they came up with the name

Thrasher91604

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Shunravi

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

learn 2 history

RealLifeRedguard

Wrathmane wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

500 Years..... I believe the events of ESO take place in the 2nd Era........ which is alot more than 500 years from the events of Oblivion.

Let me correct myself.

So it just happens that 747 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before? In the exact same spot? With nary a ruin or any evidence of a previous settlement ever existing ever? He just coincidentally came up with the exact name? XD

Again, I'm really not saying that this CAN'T make sense in-universe. If you suspend your disbelief, this could totally be something that could possibly have happened by complete coincidence, but it's pretty obvious that Zenimax just didn't do their homework here. Narratively, it's silly and needlessly convoluted to intentionally claim a settlement with the exact same name happened to be in the exact same place and yet there's literally no evidence of another settlement being there and no one ever mentions it. It's just silly writing. There's no reason for them to have done this on purpose.

This isn't a case where a name was clearly known by the people who re-founded a settlement. This isn't a London or Acre situation. Nowhere in the quest was it ever even slightly implied that the bretons didn't just come up with the name off the top of their heads. Zenimax copy-pasted the settlements from Oblivion, didn't know there was a quest associated with this one until later and hoped we'd say "Whoops, Dragonbreak!" once they figured out their mistake.

RealLifeRedguard

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Thrasher91604

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

learn 2 history

learn 2 make sense.

Abeille

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Ok, about that... Keep in mind that the last time we saw Firsthold was in Arena, and it looked like this:



Everything we think we know about the Summerset Isles are things we heard from npcs and read in books. They might be exaggerating a little bit.

RealLifeRedguard

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Ok, about that... Keep in mind that the last time we saw Firsthold was in Arena, and it looked like this:



Everything we think we know about the Summerset Isles are things we heard from npcs and read in books. They might be exaggerating a little bit.

Come on, dude. Arena and Daggerfall were made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified in 1999. EVERY city looked like that in Arena. The devs themselves joke about how Arena and Daggerfall were just faux Dungeons and Dragons worlds. It wasn't until Todd Howard, Michael Kirkbride, and Kurt Kuhlmann made The Pocket Guide to the Empire that we had any sort of solidified background for the world.

The land of Tamriel has gone through numerous interpretations, revisions, and reboots. There are millions of ways to interpret the world of Nirn.

I don't have a problem with things changing. It's not that I want everything to be just as it was when the first game came out. It's that I feel like Zenimax often (not always, but often) chooses the more tame and mundane interpretation when given the choice. Firsthold (and Auridon in general) is a good example of this. A city that's a museum for ancient astronauts turns into grey, colorless Rivendell. I understand you prefer the latter, but I was looking forward to the former.

Abeille

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Ok, about that... Keep in mind that the last time we saw Firsthold was in Arena, and it looked like this:



Everything we think we know about the Summerset Isles are things we heard from npcs and read in books. They might be exaggerating a little bit.

Come on, dude. Arena and Daggerfall were made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified in 1999. EVERY city looked like that in Arena. The devs themselves joke about how Arena and Daggerfall were just faux Dungeons and Dragons worlds. It wasn't until Todd Howard, Michael Kirkbride, and Kurt Kuhlmann made The Pocket Guide to the Empire that we had any sort of solidified background for the world.

The land of Tamriel has gone through numerous interpretations, revisions, and reboots. There are millions of ways to interpret the world of Nirn.

I don't have a problem with things changing. It's not that I want everything to be just as it was when the first game came out. It's that I feel like Zenimax often (not always, but often) chooses the more tame and mundane interpretation when given the choice. Firsthold (and Auridon in general) is a good example of this. A city that's a museum for ancient astronauts turns into grey, colorless Rivendell. I understand you prefer the latter, but I was looking forward to the former.

That's the thing, though. The Pocket Guide to the Empire was written (in game) by a citizen of Tamriel. An unreliable narrator. My point was that we never saw "real" Firsthold before ESO, and we shouldn't take what is written in the Pocket Guide to the Empire as fact. It is, like every other work of literature in the game, biased because of the author's vision, story and personal impressions.

Take everything npcs tell you in the game with a grain of salt, and it will be much easier for you to accept when something turns out not to be exactly like that npc told you. In a franchise with a lore all based around unreliable narrators passing "common knowledge" forward, it is easy to lose track of what is fact and what might as well be mere conjecture.

And about "things changing", you see, if you doubt the information given by an unreliable narrator, you will come to the conclusion this isn't actually a change as much as something new being shown to us. Because, as you said yourself, Arena was made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified. And that was ALL we had regarding the Summerset Isles that was somehow reliable before ESO, because it was the only time we saw it ourselves instead of reading about it from an unreliable narrator. Taking everything we didn't see/do ourselves with a grain of salt avoids so much frustration, and is in line with the way the lore in TES is presented.

I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a more impressive Altmeri architecture. Unlike your assumption, I do not prefer "the latter". Many Altmer are, after all, obsessed with perfection and aesthetics (which brings me to my pet peeve, the Altmer Light Armor and their awfully sloppy stitching), and this is something we can notice by interacting with the Altmer in Auridon and not just something that we read in a book. What I AM saying is that saying "It SHOULD be like this because this book/npc says so, otherwise it is a lore inconsistency" isn't a good argument on this franchise. I prefer "It would be better if it was like this because it seems to me that it would match their culture better, and because of my personal preferences".

RealLifeRedguard

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Ok, about that... Keep in mind that the last time we saw Firsthold was in Arena, and it looked like this:



Everything we think we know about the Summerset Isles are things we heard from npcs and read in books. They might be exaggerating a little bit.

Come on, dude. Arena and Daggerfall were made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified in 1999. EVERY city looked like that in Arena. The devs themselves joke about how Arena and Daggerfall were just faux Dungeons and Dragons worlds. It wasn't until Todd Howard, Michael Kirkbride, and Kurt Kuhlmann made The Pocket Guide to the Empire that we had any sort of solidified background for the world.

The land of Tamriel has gone through numerous interpretations, revisions, and reboots. There are millions of ways to interpret the world of Nirn.

I don't have a problem with things changing. It's not that I want everything to be just as it was when the first game came out. It's that I feel like Zenimax often (not always, but often) chooses the more tame and mundane interpretation when given the choice. Firsthold (and Auridon in general) is a good example of this. A city that's a museum for ancient astronauts turns into grey, colorless Rivendell. I understand you prefer the latter, but I was looking forward to the former.

That's the thing, though. The Pocket Guide to the Empire was written (in game) by a citizen of Tamriel. An unreliable narrator. My point was that we never saw "real" Firsthold before ESO, and we shouldn't take what is written in the Pocket Guide to the Empire as fact. It is, like every other work of literature in the game, biased because of the author's vision, story and personal impressions.

Take everything npcs tell you in the game with a grain of salt, and it will be much easier for you to accept when something turns out not to be exactly like that npc told you. In a franchise with a lore all based around unreliable narrators passing "common knowledge" forward, it is easy to lose track of what is fact and what might as well be mere conjecture.

And about "things changing", you see, if you doubt the information given by an unreliable narrator, you will come to the conclusion this isn't actually a change as much as something new being shown to us. Because, as you said yourself, Arena was made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified. And that was ALL we had regarding the Summerset Isles that was somehow reliable before ESO, because it was the only time we saw it ourselves instead of reading about it from an unreliable narrator. Taking everything we didn't see/do ourselves with a grain of salt avoids so much frustration, and is in line with the way the lore in TES is presented.

I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a more impressive Altmeri architecture. Unlike your assumption, I do not prefer "the latter". Many Altmer are, after all, obsessed with perfection and aesthetics (which brings me to my pet peeve, the Altmer Light Armor and their awfully sloppy stitching), and this is something we can notice by interacting with the Altmer in Auridon and not just something that we read in a book. What I AM saying is that saying "It SHOULD be like this because this book/npc says so, otherwise it is a lore inconsistency" isn't a good argument on this franchise. I prefer "It would be better if it was like this because it seems to me that it would match their culture better, and because of my personal preferences".

You're not listening. This isn't about character bias, unreliable narrators, or in-game writing, or me wanting things to be exactly like they were in outdated books. I understand that everything could be propaganda or lies or misinformation. This is about the fact that everything I find cool and interesting in The Elder Scrolls universe has been reduced to "fanciful exaggerations" and "impossibilities".

This is simply about the fact the fact that Tamriel can be interpreted in different ways. I feel Zenimax chooses the more "safe, toned down" interpretation more often than I personally like.

I like The Elder Scrolls when it feels unique and different from regular D&D / LoTR inspired medieval fantasy. I like to believe the descriptions of altmer and imperial "mananauts" and mothships and coral skyscrapers and flying whales and "making buildings out of poetry", and altmer ships with butterfly sails.

Obviously we're getting off the topic of Cropsford, but my irritation obviously goes deeper than that. It's just a symptom of something that bothers me about this otherwise enjoyable game. It's selfish, I know, but Zenimax just isn't portaying the Tamriel I fell in love with. This feels like medieval fantasy world #378 with an Elder Scrolls coating. They insist on making almost everything grey. Even the ayleid ruins are grey now. It's symbolic of their whole mentality I feel. Sucking the fun and wackiness out of the world with a few notable exceptions

I was hoping to see more of the weirder, unique side of Nirn. None of these nitpicks would be bothering me if the world was sucking me in more, I guess.

I'm probably not going to post in this thread anymore because I'm just depressing myself now, and seemingly pissing off everyone else.

starkerealm

HeroOfNone wrote: »

I think another thing to consider is people lie.

You think an guy named Rorik wouldn't be vain enough to claim a settlement was named after him? It could have easily been the other way around and he was named after the town.

It's pretty heavily implied, in Skyrim, that very shady things are going on with Rorik and Rorikstead.

Amusingly enough, for the weird and mangled continuity, no one has mentioned the Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls lorebook you can find in ESO. Written by a deranged, and very much not immortal, Imperial you meet in Skyrim (1k years later).

Amusingly, if you own the physical lorebook compilations, there's an in setting editor's note complaining about how the copy of Ruminations they found had a 4E printer's mark, calling it clearly absurd.

Abeille

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Ok, about that... Keep in mind that the last time we saw Firsthold was in Arena, and it looked like this:



Everything we think we know about the Summerset Isles are things we heard from npcs and read in books. They might be exaggerating a little bit.

Come on, dude. Arena and Daggerfall were made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified in 1999. EVERY city looked like that in Arena. The devs themselves joke about how Arena and Daggerfall were just faux Dungeons and Dragons worlds. It wasn't until Todd Howard, Michael Kirkbride, and Kurt Kuhlmann made The Pocket Guide to the Empire that we had any sort of solidified background for the world.

The land of Tamriel has gone through numerous interpretations, revisions, and reboots. There are millions of ways to interpret the world of Nirn.

I don't have a problem with things changing. It's not that I want everything to be just as it was when the first game came out. It's that I feel like Zenimax often (not always, but often) chooses the more tame and mundane interpretation when given the choice. Firsthold (and Auridon in general) is a good example of this. A city that's a museum for ancient astronauts turns into grey, colorless Rivendell. I understand you prefer the latter, but I was looking forward to the former.

That's the thing, though. The Pocket Guide to the Empire was written (in game) by a citizen of Tamriel. An unreliable narrator. My point was that we never saw "real" Firsthold before ESO, and we shouldn't take what is written in the Pocket Guide to the Empire as fact. It is, like every other work of literature in the game, biased because of the author's vision, story and personal impressions.

Take everything npcs tell you in the game with a grain of salt, and it will be much easier for you to accept when something turns out not to be exactly like that npc told you. In a franchise with a lore all based around unreliable narrators passing "common knowledge" forward, it is easy to lose track of what is fact and what might as well be mere conjecture.

And about "things changing", you see, if you doubt the information given by an unreliable narrator, you will come to the conclusion this isn't actually a change as much as something new being shown to us. Because, as you said yourself, Arena was made long before the Elder Scrolls lore was solidified. And that was ALL we had regarding the Summerset Isles that was somehow reliable before ESO, because it was the only time we saw it ourselves instead of reading about it from an unreliable narrator. Taking everything we didn't see/do ourselves with a grain of salt avoids so much frustration, and is in line with the way the lore in TES is presented.

I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a more impressive Altmeri architecture. Unlike your assumption, I do not prefer "the latter". Many Altmer are, after all, obsessed with perfection and aesthetics (which brings me to my pet peeve, the Altmer Light Armor and their awfully sloppy stitching), and this is something we can notice by interacting with the Altmer in Auridon and not just something that we read in a book. What I AM saying is that saying "It SHOULD be like this because this book/npc says so, otherwise it is a lore inconsistency" isn't a good argument on this franchise. I prefer "It would be better if it was like this because it seems to me that it would match their culture better, and because of my personal preferences".

You're not listening. This isn't about character bias, unreliable narrators, or in-game writing, or me wanting things to be exactly like they were in outdated books. I understand that everything could be propaganda or lies or misinformation. This is about the fact that everything I find cool and interesting in The Elder Scrolls universe has been reduced to "fanciful exaggerations" and "impossibilities".

This is simply about the fact the fact that Tamriel can be interpreted in different ways. I feel Zenimax chooses the more "safe, toned down" interpretation more often than I personally like.

I like The Elder Scrolls when it feels unique and different from regular D&D / LoTR inspired medieval fantasy. I like to believe the descriptions of altmer and imperial "mananauts" and mothships and coral skyscrapers and flying whales and "making buildings out of poetry", and altmer ships with butterfly sails.

Obviously we're getting off the topic of Cropsford, but my irritation obviously goes deeper than that. It's just a symptom of something that bothers me about this otherwise enjoyable game. It's selfish, I know, but Zenimax just isn't portaying the Tamriel I fell in love with. This feels like medieval fantasy world #378 with an Elder Scrolls coating. They insist on making almost everything grey. Even the ayleid ruins are grey now. It's symbolic of their whole mentality I feel. Sucking the fun and wackiness out of the world with a few notable exceptions

I was hoping to see more of the weirder, unique side of Nirn. None of these nitpicks would be bothering me if the world was sucking me in more, I guess.

I'm probably not going to post in this thread anymore because I'm just depressing myself now, and seemingly pissing off everyone else.

Oh but I am listening. It is just that only now you are putting it forward as your personal preference, instead of as "ZOS changed everything". And that I can respect, because I too have my own preferences and expectations. I think I am just a little more flexible because I don't really get so upset when it turns out that my headcanon doesn't matches canon.

And yes, Tamriel can be interpreted in different ways, and it is a shame that the way ZOS decided to go with does not matches your interpretation of Tamriel. I understand that it upsets you, it happens sometimes when our headcanon turns out to not match canon.

And honestly, I prefer people like you that want things to be less gritty and grey than people that freak out every time something a little more colorful and otherworldly appears in the game.

Here's hope that my prayers are answered and that the next TES game is in the Dominion, and that we notice a huge difference in the Altmeri architecture and overall aesthetic choices that a thousand years can make. Or maybe Alinor is already a little more the way you envision, and once we get TES: VI we can get a ESO DLC in Summerset that reflects it. Besides, I'm in need of kicking some 4th Era's Thalmor behinds for being everything that Ayrenn hated and fought against

Shunravi

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Dont ya just love the boring khajiit lore that they could have finally showed in its full glory? Its so boring that they cut out 90% of it! YAY!!! who cares about the intricacies of phases of the moon related to birth type! Who cares about Senche-rhat, senche, alfiq, tojay, or the friggin mane (or any of the others)? all that stuff was made up by a high elf high on skooma!

The pain is palpable.

Abeille

Shunravi wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Dont ya just love the boring khajiit lore that they could have finally showed in its full glory? Its so boring that they cut out 90% of it! YAY!!! who cares about the intricacies of phases of the moon related to birth type! Who cares about Senche-rhat, senche, alfiq, tojay, or the friggin mane (or any of the others)? all that stuff was made up by a high elf high on skooma!

The pain is palpable.

They really focused on Bosmeri lore with the Dominion quest line (not complaining, they are one of my favourite races). The Khajiit had like half a map plus the starting island in this game only, so it is understandable that they would only skim over it. I would expect to see Khajiiti lore in its full glory if we get an Elsweyr DLC eventually. Although, then I would hope ZOS would do the right thing and populate the rest of the maps with other Khajiiti furstocks. Everybody being (apparently) Cathay really bothers me, almost as much as the total lack of children in all of Tamriel.

Shunravi

Abeille wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

Lore is one thing that keeps me coming back this series. If the devs can't keep that straight anymore I will quickly lose interest.

Lore is the only thing keeping me interested in ESO. And one of the big things am hoping for in ESO, being a game with a long continuous dev cycle as opposed to one limited game and it's dlc, is that they expand the Lore rather than trying to conform to set standards. Stagnation is boring.

So screwing up timelines is expanding the lore and avoiding stagnation. Gotcha.

Of course! Same reason Firsthold was changed from a glorious city with a massive orrery and relics from altmer astronauts to a grey, washed out Rivendell ripoff!

#MakeSummersetGreatAgain

Dont ya just love the boring khajiit lore that they could have finally showed in its full glory? Its so boring that they cut out 90% of it! YAY!!! who cares about the intricacies of phases of the moon related to birth type! Who cares about Senche-rhat, senche, alfiq, tojay, or the friggin mane (or any of the others)? all that stuff was made up by a high elf high on skooma!

The pain is palpable.

They really focused on Bosmeri lore with the Dominion quest line (not complaining, they are one of my favourite races). The Khajiit had like half a map plus the starting island in this game only, so it is understandable that they would only skim over it. I would expect to see Khajiiti lore in its full glory if we get an Elsweyr DLC eventually. Although, then I would hope ZOS would do the right thing and populate the rest of the maps with other Khajiiti furstocks. Everybody being (apparently) Cathay really bothers me, almost as much as the total lack of children in all of Tamriel.

Well, its not as if they haven't hinted at things, there are a few suggestions of a deeper lore...

but certain things dampen the hope.