"Why does Cropsford exist in the 2nd Era?" and other bizarre anachronisms

RealLifeRedguard

Like many of you, I played Oblivion as a kid.

One sidequest in particular stands out, where you meet a group of breton immigrants who were scammed into buying a piece of barren, goblin-infested lands in the Nibenay basin. Their leader says he planned on calling the land "cropsford".



So, being the hero that you are, you kill the goblins, save the day, and watch the little piece of land grow into a small village over the course of several in-game months.



This is a completely new settlement that you helped build.

So, people of ESO, I ask you:

Why the hell is Cropsford a thing in the second era?



Is it just a coincidence that a completely different town with the exact same name existed in the exact same place several hundred years ago, and disappeared without a trace or ruin, only to be rebuild in the late third-era? Is there some timey-wimey stuff of which I'm unaware?

So, do we have any information on the Cropsford that exists in the second era? Is it related in any way to the one we help build in Oblivion? Let's discuss.

Edit: I also wanted to reference some other bizarre anachronisms in this game. For example:

opaj wrote: »

Why does Black-Briar Mead exist?

Why is there a recipe for Raven Rock (founded late 3rd era) Baked Ash Yams (Solstheim did not have a climate to support ash yams until early 4th era)?

Just how old is Ababael Timsar-Dadisun by the time of Morrowind, anyway?

I can headcanon these all away, but I do wish I didn't have to do so quite this often. It's surely possible that Maven's family has a rich history of mead-making and she just decided to start up the old family business after it had fallen on hard times several generations back. Maybe there's a different Raven Rock somewhere in Morrowind from which the Solstheim colony will eventually get its name. Perhaps Ababael used his master mercantile skills to buy some form of immortality. Or he could be a vampire, hence the mask he always wears when you meet him in the third era.

Some of these things are glaring and obvious. Even a cursory playthrough of Bloodmoonand Dragonborn would tell you Raven Rock does not exist yet. There is no way it can exist yet. Even if it did exist, there is no way you could make ash yams there. That is insane. It's not a nitpick. Solstheim is a frozen wasteland. There is no ash to make ash yams. There wont be any ash until Red Mountain explodes in the fourth era.

Oh, and #MakeSummersetGreatAgain.

Aisle9

I have only one word of you: Rorikstead

nuff said

also, "as a kid"... made me giggle

Ankael07

did you notice how they werent ravished by the war? praying to stendarr and all? maybe stendar himself protected it

RealLifeRedguard

Aisle9 wrote: »

I have only one word of you: Rorikstead

nuff said

also, "as a kid"... made me giggle

Rorikstead is a similar situation?

Wait...rorikstead was named after a Great War veteran, right? His name was "Rorik".

How the hell can Rorikstead exist thousands of years before Rorik was born??

What the actual ***?

Tryxus

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

I have only one word of you: Rorikstead

nuff said

also, "as a kid"... made me giggle

Rorikstead is a similar situation?

Yeah, Rorikstead was mentioned in an ancient text, of which Farengar has a copy. It was dating to just after the Dragon War, suggesting it is a very old village

However, Rorik in Rorikstead claims he founded it and named it after him during the 4th Era...

Perhaps it's possible that both settlements were re-founded hundreds of years later, and that they were both named after the original (Rorik's name would've been either a coincidence or he purposely founded the settlement right there just to name if after the original and his own name)

RealLifeRedguard

Tryxus wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

I have only one word of you: Rorikstead

nuff said

also, "as a kid"... made me giggle

Rorikstead is a similar situation?

Yeah, Rorikstead was mentioned in an ancient text, of which Farengar has a copy. It was dating to just after the Dragon War, suggesting it is a very old village

However, Rorik in Rorikstead claims he founded it and named it after him during the 4th Era...

Perhaps it's possible that both settlements were re-founded hundreds of years later, and that they were both named after the original (Rorik's name would've been either a coincidence or he purposely founded the settlement right there just to name if after the original and his own name)

This all sounds hilariously ridiculous.

Though I guess we can't place all the blame on Zenimax then if Rorikstead is even more nonsensical than Cropsford.

Turelus

Burning_Talons

Remeber in ESO live Uncle sheo or Shnick said if he doesnt have the answer he can make it up. So he will find some bs patch for the plot holes like. Of they were reincarnated in the holy lights of stendar after slyvakian russians tore it down with their Mi-8 rocket perpellant railgun. Because zeni logic

Bonzodog01

See, we can always blame anything that appears out of time on the infamous Dragon breaks, where time and space become confused, and stuff can get moved around at will.

Just because Cropsford was founded in the 4th Era, its likely it got moved back back in time during a Dragon break.

WardenofArcherus

Its possible that the town was eventually overrun by the nearby goblin clans, and remained uninhabited until it was purchased in the Third Era. As for the name, perhaps someone planted the seed of the "Cropsford" name in the buyer's head? Maybe he was at a tavern lamenting on the purchase of goblin-infested lands, and someone mentioned Cropsford off-hand.

RealLifeRedguard

WardenofArcherus wrote: »

Its possible that the town was eventually overrun by the nearby goblin clans, and remained uninhabited until it was purchased in the Third Era. As for the name, perhaps someone planted the seed of the "Cropsford" name in the buyer's head? Maybe he was at a tavern lamenting on the purchase of goblin-infested lands, and someone mentioned Cropsford off-hand.

These are all really convenient excuses, but I'll give you points for trying.

Also, why is there absolutely no trace of the old town at all? It's completely fresh uninhabited land.

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Remeber in ESO live Uncle sheo or Shnick said if he doesnt have the answer he can make it up. So he will find some bs patch for the plot holes like. Of they were reincarnated in the holy lights of stendar after slyvakian russians tore it down with their Mi-8 rocket perpellant railgun. Because zeni logic

So, I think we can agree that, from a non-lore perspective, this was obviously a mistake. My question is how they made the mistake in the first place. They played the previous games, right? Even a cursory glance of a wiki could have told you that Cropsford doesn't exist until the player helps build it.

Burning_Talons

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

WardenofArcherus wrote: »

Its possible that the town was eventually overrun by the nearby goblin clans, and remained uninhabited until it was purchased in the Third Era. As for the name, perhaps someone planted the seed of the "Cropsford" name in the buyer's head? Maybe he was at a tavern lamenting on the purchase of goblin-infested lands, and someone mentioned Cropsford off-hand.

These are all really convenient excuses, but I'll give you points for trying.

Also, why is there absolutely no trace of the old town at all? It's completely fresh uninhabited land.

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Remeber in ESO live Uncle sheo or Shnick said if he doesnt have the answer he can make it up. So he will find some bs patch for the plot holes like. Of they were reincarnated in the holy lights of stendar after slyvakian russians tore it down with their Mi-8 rocket perpellant railgun. Because zeni logic

So, I think we can agree that, from a non-lore perspective, this was obviously a mistake. My question is how they made the mistake in the first place. They played the previous games, right? Even a cursory glance of a wiki could have told you that Cropsford doesn't exist until the player helps build it.

Zenimax doesn't play games where the f*** did hear they actually played their games XD

Aisle9

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

I have only one word of you: Rorikstead

nuff said

also, "as a kid"... made me giggle

Rorikstead is a similar situation?

Wait...rorikstead was named after a Great War veteran, right? His name was "Rorik".

How the hell can Rorikstead exist thousands of years before Rorik was born??

What the actual ***?

Bonzodog01 wrote: »

Just because Cropsford was founded in the 4th Era, its likely it got moved back back in time during a Dragon break.

"Aww, man, we forgot that the village was founded way later, but who's keeping track with all these titles..."
"Dude, just say it was a Dragon Break"
"Genius!"

ArcVelarian

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

RealLifeRedguard

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

Again, I know we're trying to find in-universe explanations for this, but it's clear Zenimax just dropped the ball on this.

Abeille

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

Again, I know we're trying to find in-universe explanations for this, but it's clear Zenimax just dropped the ball on this.

What if he did hear about a settlement called "Cropsford" before? Maybe even from the people who sold them the land? I confess that I don't really remember this quest very well.
And yes, like many things, it is an overlook. Not the first, and most likely not the last one. But these explanations provided by other players, while convenient, are within the realm of possibility, so I am ok with them.

I just wish people stopped using the "Dragon Break" explanation for everything. While lore-friendly, I find it to be a boring and cheap explanation, and I really hope our Lore Master doesn't decide to use it.

RealLifeRedguard

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

Again, I know we're trying to find in-universe explanations for this, but it's clear Zenimax just dropped the ball on this.

What if he did hear about a settlement called "Cropsford" before? Maybe even from the people who sold them the land? I confess that I don't really remember this quest very well.
And yes, like many things, it is an overlook. Not the first, and most likely not the last one. But these explanations provided by other players, while convenient, are within the realm of possibility, so I am ok with them.

I just wish people stopped using the "Dragon Break" explanation for everything. While lore-friendly, I find it to be a boring and cheap explanation, and I really hope our Lore Master doesn't decide to use it.

Don't you think he would have mentioned that there was a settlement there before had he known it? Or questioned why it wasn't around anymore?

Again, I applaud you guys trying to make this make sense in-universe, but it's obvious Zenimax messed up, and are hoping we'll come up with convenient explanations to excuse it.

Tryxus

From the UESP

aldriq

Abeille wrote: »

I just wish people stopped using the "Dragon Break" explanation for everything. While lore-friendly, I find it to be a boring and cheap explanation, and I really hope our Lore Master doesn't decide to use it.

Dragon breaks are the 'it was all a dream' device in Elder Scrolls...

JD2013

Cropsford can be any town that stood there, past or present.

For example, IRL several towns and cities have been destroyed by wars etc and rebuilt (albeit not hundreds of years apart). I am sure the name would be there on maps from this era in the future.

Danikat

If you know real-life history it's not at all hard to believe that a town could be destroyed and rebuilt in the same location with the same name, even multiple times.

A well known example is London, England which was abandoned after the fall of the Roman Empire and wasn't resettled until almost a century later, but there are numerous other examples including many smaller settlements where there would be next to nothing left (at least in terms of structures visible on the surface) but the name remained associated with that patch of land, either because people continued to refer to it that way or because it was based on something like the geography of the area, which remained the same.

Admittedly in this case the most likely explanation is that the people making Cyrodiil in ESO were basing it on maps from Oblivion and missed the fact that a settlement shouldn't be there. But I think it's entirely possible to come up with reasonable explanations without resorting to extremes like Dragon Breaks.

RealLifeRedguard

Danikat wrote: »

Admittedly in this case the most likely explanation is that the people making Cyrodiil in ESO were basing it on maps from Oblivion and missed the fact that a settlement shouldn't be there. But I think it's entirely possible to come up with reasonable explanations without resorting to extremes like Dragon Breaks.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Yes, it's POSSIBLE that the owners of the new Cropsford happened to come up with the exact same name on their own (the London example isn't a coincidence. They knew there was a town called London before, and gave it the same name. In ES, the breton immigrants seem to come up with the name on their own), but I think it's clear that no one at Zenimax played through the Oblivion quest, and they just copypasted a town with the same name in ESO, not knowing the town shouldn't exist yet.

driosketch

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

Again, I know we're trying to find in-universe explanations for this, but it's clear Zenimax just dropped the ball on this.

What if he did hear about a settlement called "Cropsford" before? Maybe even from the people who sold them the land? I confess that I don't really remember this quest very well.
And yes, like many things, it is an overlook. Not the first, and most likely not the last one. But these explanations provided by other players, while convenient, are within the realm of possibility, so I am ok with them.

I just wish people stopped using the "Dragon Break" explanation for everything. While lore-friendly, I find it to be a boring and cheap explanation, and I really hope our Lore Master doesn't decide to use it.

Don't you think he would have mentioned that there was a settlement there before had he known it? Or questioned why it wasn't around anymore?

Again, I applaud you guys trying to make this make sense in-universe, but it's obvious Zenimax messed up, and are hoping we'll come up with convenient explanations to excuse it.

Cropsford could have also lived on as the name of that area, and he just decided to name the settlement after the area.

Now I know one of the NPCs foreshadows the threat goblins pose to 2nd era Cropsford. So it's not hard to imagine what might happen to the town by the 3rd era.

Universe wise, it's a clear retcon. But for the Elder Scrolls Series, that's not unprecedented.

Abeille

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It probably gets burned down by goblins so many times between ESO the 3rd Era that people give up trying to have a town there. I remember one of the NPCs says something along the lines, "Mark my words, those goblins will be the end of this village." I think it was the female orc quest giver.

So it just happens that 500 years later a random breton fresh from High Rock happens to "come up with" the exact same name without any knowledge of a settlement being there before?

Again, I know we're trying to find in-universe explanations for this, but it's clear Zenimax just dropped the ball on this.

What if he did hear about a settlement called "Cropsford" before? Maybe even from the people who sold them the land? I confess that I don't really remember this quest very well.
And yes, like many things, it is an overlook. Not the first, and most likely not the last one. But these explanations provided by other players, while convenient, are within the realm of possibility, so I am ok with them.

I just wish people stopped using the "Dragon Break" explanation for everything. While lore-friendly, I find it to be a boring and cheap explanation, and I really hope our Lore Master doesn't decide to use it.

Don't you think he would have mentioned that there was a settlement there before had he known it? Or questioned why it wasn't around anymore?

Again, I applaud you guys trying to make this make sense in-universe, but it's obvious Zenimax messed up, and are hoping we'll come up with convenient explanations to excuse it.

I don't think he would necessarily have to mention it, especially since he had more things to concern himself with, like the goblins. As to question why it wasn't there anymore, he could have assumed the wars destroyed it. Or the seller could have said that to him.

If there is a plausible explanation (or on this case, plenty), I avoid stressing over this kind of stuff. It is not worth the trouble. Retcons happen all the time on this series, Cyrodiil not being a jungle being the most obvious, and then they come up with in-universe explanations (Talos changed it reatroactively, the White-Gold Tower gradually changed it to reflect the needs of the humans, people just cut down the trees, etc).

I_killed_Vivec

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Admittedly in this case the most likely explanation is that the people making Cyrodiil in ESO were basing it on maps from Oblivion and missed the fact that a settlement shouldn't be there. But I think it's entirely possible to come up with reasonable explanations without resorting to extremes like Dragon Breaks.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Yes, it's POSSIBLE that the owners of the new Cropsford happened to come up with the exact same name on their own (the London example isn't a coincidence. They knew there was a town called London before, and gave it the same name. In ES, the breton immigrants seem to come up with the name on their own), but I think it's clear that no one at Zenimax played through the Oblivion quest, and they just copypasted a town with the same name in ESO, not knowing the town shouldn't exist yet.

Why do you persist in insisting that ZoS messed up when you've already been given the answer?

Tryxus wrote: »

From the UESP

Why do you assume that the Bretons, who bought the land cheaply off the government, wouldn't be aware of the land's history?

Enodoc

I thought ZOS had already answered this, but right now I can't find the source. Essentially the Second Era Cropsford is overrun by the goblins at some point in its future, leaving the land clear for you to help build a new Crospford there in 3E 433.

Tryxus

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

From the UESP

Why do you assume that the Bretons, who bought the land cheaply off the government, wouldn't be aware of the land's history?

Highlighted the important parts of that question. Think about those words and you'll figure it out

Or hit the spoiler button

Immigrants from High Rock who got suckered into buying a piece of worthless land by the Cyrodilic Government

Gidorick

Tryxus wrote: »

From the UESP

File this under the "That works!" heading.

I_killed_Vivec

Tryxus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

From the UESP

Why do you assume that the Bretons, who bought the land cheaply off the government, wouldn't be aware of the land's history?

Highlighted the important parts of that question. Think about those words and you'll figure it out

Or hit the spoiler button

Immigrants from High Rock who got suckered into buying a piece of worthless land by the Cyrodilic Government

Think about it...

Government official: "We've got this nice plot of land going cheap. Cropsford".

Homeless Breton: "Cheap you say? We'll take it... Cropsford you said? Good name, I like it."

dodgehopper_ESO

Why isn't there a jungle in Cyrodiil?

Tryxus

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

From the UESP

Why do you assume that the Bretons, who bought the land cheaply off the government, wouldn't be aware of the land's history?

Highlighted the important parts of that question. Think about those words and you'll figure it out

Or hit the spoiler button

Immigrants from High Rock who got suckered into buying a piece of worthless land by the Cyrodilic Government

Think about it...

Government official: "We've got this nice plot of land going cheap. Cropsford".

Homeless Breton: "Cheap you say? We'll take it... Cropsford you said? Good name, I like it."

Pretty much it

A group of farmers from High Rock heard they could get a piece of land in Cyrodiil cheap, so they sold their homes and moved there. And the Imperials told them not everything they NEEDED to know, but rather everything they WANTED them to know. Things like location, size, soil, fertility, history (former settlement: Cropsford) and purposely left out the goblin war part.

And yeah, farmers are pretty unimaginitive so they copied the name: "We're planning on calling it Cropsford."

But then the Champion of Cyrodiil passed through and put a stop to the goblin wars...

... and so, 3E 433, Cropsford the 2nd was founded.