Dark Brotherhood Sorcerer Q&A

Autolycus

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Autolycus

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

tennotsukai87

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Tyrannitar

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

Autolycus

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Lord_Wrath

PvP- Im ok with the shield duration because i hate having to rely on shields just to stay alive. What im not ok with is having such minimal defense now that shields barely have merit. We drop like flies now because of stamina and squishyness.

Our low stamina is a weakness because we cant deal with the common CC abilities used on us. Yes we can use CP for tumbling and stamina regen but its not much of a help in regards to the other CP trees we need more for magica. But after a few CC breaks and a roll dodge our depleted stamina makes us stationary targets. Mist form helps but we cant do anything in it, and once over they can CC again. We need support behind our low stamina pool, because stamina classes do not need to rely on magica for dodging or breaking free, theyd feel the pressure too.

I think Bound Armor should be a passive, since armor isnt very useful it should reduce incoming damage by a %. This way sorcs dont instantly die because a nightblade or DK farted on them.

Dark Deal's cast time needs reduced by 40% as well, the amount it heals vs the time it takes is too long for the heat of battle.

Grao

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Surge wasn't and will never be a good skill for tanking silly goose. It is a DPS boost that happened to have a heal attached to it, tanks have far better options to rely upon than a 2.5k Heals per proc that relies on Critical Chance, something no sane tank builds towards. That @Wrobel said this change made Surge better for tanks is pathetic to say the least the little jest about Crit. based tanks is just that... A jest to show how foolish of a notion using Surge as a tank is.

Now, when it comes to DPS builds, this was a huge nerf. Before you could pull quite strong heals from this skill, but now... Other classes HoTs heal for more and don't rely on Crit chance for procing. Yeah, this changes made Surge 'awesome'... It is now almost as Awesome as Useless Exchange.

Autolycus

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Surge wasn't and will never be a good skill for tanking silly goose. It is a DPS boost that happened to have a heal attached to it, tanks have far better options to rely upon than a 2.5k Heals per proc that relies on Critical Chance, something no sane tank builds towards. That @Wrobel said this change made Surge better for tanks is pathetic to say the least the little jest about Crit. based tanks is just that... A jest to show how foolish of a notion using Surge as a tank is.

Now, when it comes to DPS builds, this was a huge nerf. Before you could pull quite strong heals from this skill, but now... Other classes HoTs heal for more and don't rely on Crit chance for procing. Yeah, this changes made Surge 'awesome'... It is now almost as Awesome as Useless Exchange.

Have you personally tried tanking as a sorc? There is a difference between making a skill more viable for tanking, and making "crit-based" tanks. One does not need to be "crit-based" to use this skill effectively.

The fact that it doesn't scale with damage dealt is what makes it more useful for tanks. Previously, sorc tanks did not get reasonable heal returns on these crit procs, because most sorc tanks aren't doing high enough damage to make the heals potent enough for self-sustain. Every tank has a crit chance, period (even someone at level 3 fresh out of CH has a crit% > 0). Stamina-based sorc tanks will see even higher return values, in part due to the extra healing mechanic of Critical Surge vs. Power Surge, and in part due to the scaling of the tooltip value with max stamina and WD. A properly-designed sorc tank can and will reap the benefits of a more reliable and consistent self-heal, which brings it more in line with the self-sustain potential of other classes.

Additionally, the changes to Surge have made it so that it can now proc on DoT abilities. From a tanking perspective, this means Hurricane/Boundless Storm, which is the primary source of Major Ward/Resolve for the class. Now this ability is more than resistances, it is also a reliable source of self-healing.

Consider a stam sorc using 5pc Footman, 5 TBS, and 2 flex pieces. The mitigation potential from Footman (along with the various passives in HA and 1H&S, and skill passives) is plenty sufficient to be considered a true tank. Couple that with the Thief and Tower with TBS, and you start seeing much higher and noteworthy values from those procs. Also, any sorc tank with at least 30 CP into the Shadow will have a minimum of 32% crit chance (which is really high, relative to tank crit% values in any other MMO I've played personally). And this can be boosted further with Divines pieces, passives, and potion buffs for more reliable heal procs.

So, in short, it is viable for tanking. These changes were not made at the expense of heal utility for dps and healer roles, either. The heal procs are now more sustainable and consistent from all perspectives. The only true nerf here was the heal values with Overload specifically, and that specific component was a necessary rebalance to bring it more on-par with comparable skills available to other classes.

CromulentForumID

Defilted wrote: »

I have played a lot of different MMO. I think the best example was the balancing nightmare in WOW. There was significant improvement to the consistency of the mechanics in the game when playing PVE or PVP after they made the same discussion to separate the mechanics of the skills.

PVP is going to have different reasons to change a skill to balance it as will PVE. Separating them would cut down on the confusion and make the path to changing some of the skills to make PVP/E clearer.

The fact that they didn't do this in the game from the very beginning simply astounds me. It certainly would have increased the time it took to get the game live - all of the powers programming needs to determine if the power is being used in a PVP or PVE context - but numerous previous games clearly showed why it's the best move. Balance changes for one part of the game inevitably end up adversely affecting the other part of the game, often unnecessarily. In fact, I would bet that one dev on the current team still has nightmares when thinking about the PVP work he had to do on his previous game.

When the powers are not separate, you end up with players screaming how PVP Ruined their game! Even when the change is not at all based on PVP, it'll get blamed and angry up the blood of the PVE players. Balancing becomes a nightmare because you always need a double-analysis: What change fixes the problem, and can we implement that change without screwing up other areas too much?

Any game that launches with PVE and PVP, and does not do the following, is just asking for it:
1. Separate power and skill functions in PVP and PVE
2. The ability to use multiple skill choices/builds on one character
3. The ability to save and switch between different gear layouts on the same character

Grao

Autolycus wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Surge wasn't and will never be a good skill for tanking silly goose. It is a DPS boost that happened to have a heal attached to it, tanks have far better options to rely upon than a 2.5k Heals per proc that relies on Critical Chance, something no sane tank builds towards. That @Wrobel said this change made Surge better for tanks is pathetic to say the least the little jest about Crit. based tanks is just that... A jest to show how foolish of a notion using Surge as a tank is.

Now, when it comes to DPS builds, this was a huge nerf. Before you could pull quite strong heals from this skill, but now... Other classes HoTs heal for more and don't rely on Crit chance for procing. Yeah, this changes made Surge 'awesome'... It is now almost as Awesome as Useless Exchange.

Have you personally tried tanking as a sorc? There is a difference between making a skill more viable for tanking, and making "crit-based" tanks. One does not need to be "crit-based" to use this skill effectively.

The fact that it doesn't scale with damage dealt is what makes it more useful for tanks. Previously, sorc tanks did not get reasonable heal returns on these crit procs, because most sorc tanks aren't doing high enough damage to make the heals potent enough for self-sustain. Every tank has a crit chance, period (even someone at level 3 fresh out of CH has a crit% > 0). Stamina-based sorc tanks will see even higher return values, in part due to the extra healing mechanic of Critical Surge vs. Power Surge, and in part due to the scaling of the tooltip value with max stamina and WD. A properly-designed sorc tank can and will reap the benefits of a more reliable and consistent self-heal, which brings it more in line with the self-sustain potential of other classes.

Additionally, the changes to Surge have made it so that it can now proc on DoT abilities. From a tanking perspective, this means Hurricane/Boundless Storm, which is the primary source of Major Ward/Resolve for the class. Now this ability is more than resistances, it is also a reliable sorc of self-healing.

Consider a stam sorc using 5pc Footman, 5 TBS, and 2 flex pieces. The mitigation potential from Footman (along with the various passives in HA and 1H&S, and skill passives) is plenty sufficient to be considered a true tank. Couple that with the Thief and Tower with TBS, and you start seeing much higher and noteworthy values from those procs. Also, any sorc tank with at least 30 CP into the Shadow will have a minimum of 32% crit chance (which is really high, relative to tank crit% values in any other MMO I've played personally). And this can be boosted further with Divines pieces, passives, and potion buffs for more reliable heal procs.

So, in short, it is viable for tanking. These changes were not made at the expense of heal utility for dps and healer roles, either. The heal procs are now more sustainable and consistent from all perspectives. The only true nerf here was the heal values with Overload specifically, and that specific component was a necessary rebalance to bring it more on-par with comparable skills available to other classes.

Yes, I have tanked as a sorcerer and I am sorry, but I would never slot Surge while playing that role. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason to do it and worse, because need to have Bound Armor in both our bars, there is no space for such an ability in a tank rotation. Just by saying that, your entire argument becomes pointless... Theoretically if Surge provided some bonus towards tanking, @Wrobel silly notion would make sense, but as it is, this is a DPS ability and one sorcerers only ever slotted for Solo PvE content (and sometimes for PvP). It is such an expensive skill that provides such a common bonus that it is far more worthwhile to chug down potions...

You can try justifying @Wrobel 's silly change as much as you want, but there were far better ways to go about changing Surge that would have left this skill more desirable. As it is, it is the weakest HoT of all classes as it is not even reliable, you need to crit to get heals. Pathetic as most of the sorcerer current kit...

Autolycus

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Surge wasn't and will never be a good skill for tanking silly goose. It is a DPS boost that happened to have a heal attached to it, tanks have far better options to rely upon than a 2.5k Heals per proc that relies on Critical Chance, something no sane tank builds towards. That @Wrobel said this change made Surge better for tanks is pathetic to say the least the little jest about Crit. based tanks is just that... A jest to show how foolish of a notion using Surge as a tank is.

Now, when it comes to DPS builds, this was a huge nerf. Before you could pull quite strong heals from this skill, but now... Other classes HoTs heal for more and don't rely on Crit chance for procing. Yeah, this changes made Surge 'awesome'... It is now almost as Awesome as Useless Exchange.

Have you personally tried tanking as a sorc? There is a difference between making a skill more viable for tanking, and making "crit-based" tanks. One does not need to be "crit-based" to use this skill effectively.

The fact that it doesn't scale with damage dealt is what makes it more useful for tanks. Previously, sorc tanks did not get reasonable heal returns on these crit procs, because most sorc tanks aren't doing high enough damage to make the heals potent enough for self-sustain. Every tank has a crit chance, period (even someone at level 3 fresh out of CH has a crit% > 0). Stamina-based sorc tanks will see even higher return values, in part due to the extra healing mechanic of Critical Surge vs. Power Surge, and in part due to the scaling of the tooltip value with max stamina and WD. A properly-designed sorc tank can and will reap the benefits of a more reliable and consistent self-heal, which brings it more in line with the self-sustain potential of other classes.

Additionally, the changes to Surge have made it so that it can now proc on DoT abilities. From a tanking perspective, this means Hurricane/Boundless Storm, which is the primary source of Major Ward/Resolve for the class. Now this ability is more than resistances, it is also a reliable sorc of self-healing.

Consider a stam sorc using 5pc Footman, 5 TBS, and 2 flex pieces. The mitigation potential from Footman (along with the various passives in HA and 1H&S, and skill passives) is plenty sufficient to be considered a true tank. Couple that with the Thief and Tower with TBS, and you start seeing much higher and noteworthy values from those procs. Also, any sorc tank with at least 30 CP into the Shadow will have a minimum of 32% crit chance (which is really high, relative to tank crit% values in any other MMO I've played personally). And this can be boosted further with Divines pieces, passives, and potion buffs for more reliable heal procs.

So, in short, it is viable for tanking. These changes were not made at the expense of heal utility for dps and healer roles, either. The heal procs are now more sustainable and consistent from all perspectives. The only true nerf here was the heal values with Overload specifically, and that specific component was a necessary rebalance to bring it more on-par with comparable skills available to other classes.

Yes, I have tanked as a sorcerer and I am sorry, but I would never slot Surge while playing that role. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason to do it and worse, because need to have Bound Armor in both our bars, there is no space for such an ability in a tank rotation. Just by saying that, your entire argument becomes pointless... Theoretically if Surge provided some bonus towards tanking, @Wrobel silly notion would make sense, but as it is, this is a DPS ability and one sorcerers only ever slotted for Solo PvE content (and sometimes for PvP). It is such an expensive skill that provides such a common bonus that it is far more worthwhile to chug down potions...

You can try justifying @Wrobel 's silly change as much as you want, but there were far better ways to go about changing Surge that would have left this skill more desirable. As it is, it is the weakest HoT of all classes as it is not even reliable, you need to crit to get heals. Pathetic as most of the sorcerer current kit...

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Tyrannitar

Autolycus wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

Surge wasn't and will never be a good skill for tanking silly goose. It is a DPS boost that happened to have a heal attached to it, tanks have far better options to rely upon than a 2.5k Heals per proc that relies on Critical Chance, something no sane tank builds towards. That @Wrobel said this change made Surge better for tanks is pathetic to say the least the little jest about Crit. based tanks is just that... A jest to show how foolish of a notion using Surge as a tank is.

Now, when it comes to DPS builds, this was a huge nerf. Before you could pull quite strong heals from this skill, but now... Other classes HoTs heal for more and don't rely on Crit chance for procing. Yeah, this changes made Surge 'awesome'... It is now almost as Awesome as Useless Exchange.

Have you personally tried tanking as a sorc? There is a difference between making a skill more viable for tanking, and making "crit-based" tanks. One does not need to be "crit-based" to use this skill effectively.

The fact that it doesn't scale with damage dealt is what makes it more useful for tanks. Previously, sorc tanks did not get reasonable heal returns on these crit procs, because most sorc tanks aren't doing high enough damage to make the heals potent enough for self-sustain. Every tank has a crit chance, period (even someone at level 3 fresh out of CH has a crit% > 0). Stamina-based sorc tanks will see even higher return values, in part due to the extra healing mechanic of Critical Surge vs. Power Surge, and in part due to the scaling of the tooltip value with max stamina and WD. A properly-designed sorc tank can and will reap the benefits of a more reliable and consistent self-heal, which brings it more in line with the self-sustain potential of other classes.

Additionally, the changes to Surge have made it so that it can now proc on DoT abilities. From a tanking perspective, this means Hurricane/Boundless Storm, which is the primary source of Major Ward/Resolve for the class. Now this ability is more than resistances, it is also a reliable sorc of self-healing.

Consider a stam sorc using 5pc Footman, 5 TBS, and 2 flex pieces. The mitigation potential from Footman (along with the various passives in HA and 1H&S, and skill passives) is plenty sufficient to be considered a true tank. Couple that with the Thief and Tower with TBS, and you start seeing much higher and noteworthy values from those procs. Also, any sorc tank with at least 30 CP into the Shadow will have a minimum of 32% crit chance (which is really high, relative to tank crit% values in any other MMO I've played personally). And this can be boosted further with Divines pieces, passives, and potion buffs for more reliable heal procs.

So, in short, it is viable for tanking. These changes were not made at the expense of heal utility for dps and healer roles, either. The heal procs are now more sustainable and consistent from all perspectives. The only true nerf here was the heal values with Overload specifically, and that specific component was a necessary rebalance to bring it more on-par with comparable skills available to other classes.

Yes, I have tanked as a sorcerer and I am sorry, but I would never slot Surge while playing that role. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason to do it and worse, because need to have Bound Armor in both our bars, there is no space for such an ability in a tank rotation. Just by saying that, your entire argument becomes pointless... Theoretically if Surge provided some bonus towards tanking, @Wrobel silly notion would make sense, but as it is, this is a DPS ability and one sorcerers only ever slotted for Solo PvE content (and sometimes for PvP). It is such an expensive skill that provides such a common bonus that it is far more worthwhile to chug down potions...

You can try justifying @Wrobel 's silly change as much as you want, but there were far better ways to go about changing Surge that would have left this skill more desirable. As it is, it is the weakest HoT of all classes as it is not even reliable, you need to crit to get heals. Pathetic as most of the sorcerer current kit...

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

The only logic and data I need to support my argument is that my previously 16k hps got nerfed to a max of 3k hps.

Call that consistent one more time, please, I beg you.

Please realize; prior to this TWO LIGHT ATTACKS HEALED FOR MORE.

Tyrannitar

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

willklippsteinb14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but... what's wrong with "having to" use weapon skill lines?

Every stamina build does that too in PvE in form of Rapid Strikes, but when Sorcerers "have to" use Destruction Staff it's the end of the world.

lol because atleast stamina builds get to decide between 2H, DW, or bow. Whilst we are stuck using destro and resto...and what element we want to use...stam builds get to pick between 15 skills, whilst we get to choose between 8. (bence cushing shock and resto's ward are practically required) sorcs have to take crushing shock as their single target spam ability, because nothing else makes sence as far as cost/dmg/range of the other four destro skills. we are forced to play crushing shock, shards, and often endless fury (I prefer velocious curse) and and then we get to pick 2 other skills which most are still kinda forced. (mages light and surge) even thou surge is useless as well, and obviously back bar has three shields to gain survivability, ive looked into other builds...none match the dps or survivability...so the mag sorc is kinda a forced situation, you know, if you want to half way succeed. But even now the build is ruined.

Autolycus

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons. You clearly don't understand stam sorcs to the extent that you think you do. Stam sorcs that pulled 28k before DB are now pull upwards of ~34k. Hurricane is stronger than almost every other DoT ability by any class or weapon line, with a few exceptions, and is only vastly outpaced by volley.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

ToRelax

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Autolycus

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

Tyrannitar

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons. You clearly don't understand stam sorcs to the extent that you think you do. Stam sorcs that pulled 28k before DB are now pull upwards of ~34k. Hurricane is stronger than almost every other DoT ability by any class or weapon line, with a few exceptions, and is only vastly outpaced by volley.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

I'm lol'ing @ how deluded you are.


I'm not crying about NB stealth, IDEK what nerf that received. I just know it's a class-specific skill that has a HUGE impact on gameplay.

Same with jabs.

Same with BoL.

Crit surge used to be GOOD.

AS IN I COMPLETED VMA ON MY STAM SORC PRIOR TO THIS PATCH.

If you claim our HPS is now usable in VMA, maybe it was just *YOU* who couldn't do it prior, and I highly HIGHLY doubt you'd be able to get past round 3.

Seriously.

I don't care what color your gear is, I don't necessarily even care about shields


But you're straight deluded.

You claim crit surge was OP and needed a nerf and then claim to be able to complete VMA when you couldn't prior?

That's a buff.

This isn't a buff.

But seriously, I'm at a complete loss as to how you think the way you do.

You still haven't tried explain to me how 3k hps > 16k hps

Or how that helps in VMA whatsoever

I kind of doubt you've even beaten normal mode with the advice, suggestions, and insight you've shared.

I don't even use oVERLOAD AS IM A STAM SORC AS I'VE SAID LIKE 20K TIMES AND MY SUGGESTIONS CIRCUMNAVIGATE THE SPIKE HEALS FROM OVERLOAD BY GIVING MAG USERS A HoT and STAM USERS A SPIKE HEAL SCALED OFF OF DAMAGE.


But, you'll prolly read this, and assume the guy with 1.8k regen, 4.2k weap damage, and 96.8% crit knows less than you.

So be it; but you're still wrong.

P.S. The 3k >16k hps thing isn't a quote from you. They're #'s from FTC. A little bit more objective data than your paragraphs of nonsense >.>

Autolycus

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons. You clearly don't understand stam sorcs to the extent that you think you do. Stam sorcs that pulled 28k before DB are now pull upwards of ~34k. Hurricane is stronger than almost every other DoT ability by any class or weapon line, with a few exceptions, and is only vastly outpaced by volley.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

I'm lol'ing @ how deluded you are.


I'm not crying about NB stealth, IDEK what nerf that received. I just know it's a class-specific skill that has a HUGE impact on gameplay.

Same with jabs.

Same with BoL.

Crit surge used to be GOOD.

AS IN I COMPLETED VMA ON MY STAM SORC PRIOR TO THIS PATCH.

If you claim our HPS is now usable in VMA, maybe it was just *YOU* who couldn't do it prior, and I highly HIGHLY doubt you'd be able to get past round 3.

Seriously.

I don't care what color your gear is, I don't necessarily even care about shields


But you're straight deluded.

You claim crit surge was OP and needed a nerf and then claim to be able to complete VMA when you couldn't prior?

That's a buff.

This isn't a buff.

But seriously, I'm at a complete loss as to how you think the way you do.

You still haven't tried explain to me how 3k hps > 16k hps

Or how that helps in VMA whatsoever

I kind of doubt you've even beaten normal mode with the advice, suggestions, and insight you've shared.

I don't even use oVERLOAD AS IM A STAM SORC AS I'VE SAID LIKE 20K TIMES AND MY SUGGESTIONS CIRCUMNAVIGATE THE SPIKE HEALS FROM OVERLOAD BY GIVING MAG USERS A HoT and STAM USERS A SPIKE HEAL SCALED OFF OF DAMAGE.


But, you'll prolly read this, and assume the guy with 1.8k regen, 4.2k weap damage, and 96.8% crit knows less than you.

So be it; but you're still wrong.

Yes, and I'm loling @ how you can't seem to make a point without extrapolating. I never said I didn't or couldn't beat vMA. I said most turned away and walked out. Yet again, you extrapolate just for the sake of arguing. Like I said before, I won't continue to debate with someone who only reads what they think I'm saying. And you do realize that I crunch these numbers on a daily basis, right? Like you're the only one with combat text and a calculator? Lmao.

I already explained my perspective on the new surge. If you still don't understand my point, it's probably because you don't actually read this stuff. At this point, we aren't even discussing anything of material value. There is no constructive insight, no comparison, no data, just bitching. Hate your class if you want. Those of us who know how to adapt to the changes will carry on.

Also, you do realize 1.8k regen is a huge waste in pve right? I beat vMA with 900 regen. You could boost your max stam and your WD higher and be more productive in a group setting. And you don't need that much crit. You want to speak objectively? Once you hit 85-90% crit chance you reach a point where the the marginal cost of investing in more crit% exceeds the marginal benefit. Your group will put you at 100% if you're forming it properly anyway.

ToRelax

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

These quotes are what I was referring to:

Autolycus wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

The low heals are just terrible for PvP. We didn't need a HoT, and the class is focused on burst damage.

Tyrannitar

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

These quotes are what I was referring to:

Autolycus wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

The low heals are just terrible for PvP. We didn't need a HoT, and the class is focused on burst damage.

@Autolycus ^^^^^^ read that, because if you can't find a theme in my posts: this is it summarized.

Autolycus

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

These quotes are what I was referring to:

Autolycus wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

The low heals are just terrible for PvP. We didn't need a HoT, and the class is focused on burst damage.

Those bolded portions are very generalized statements, hence why I said I haven't said "much" about pvp. Anybody who reads the patch notes can draw those conclusions.

Are they not reliable? Are they not consistent? Are they reduced by impen?

Did I say that made stam sorcs amazing in pvp? No. I realize that most of our pvp builds are very burst-centric, and that against pretty much everyone except a shielded target, those heals were a lot more potent before. But we've also been whining about how we can't get our crit heals against targets with shields, and this is what they gave us. And just because I pointed out a couple of obvious truths about the functionality of the skill doesn't merit a call out. It would have been far more appropriate to start off by simply saying, "surge heals aren't strong enough in pvp, I disagree" rather than "don't pretend you know what you're talking about." If we had a legitimate discussion on the matter, I'm sure you'd find I know a great deal more than you assume.

ToRelax

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

These quotes are what I was referring to:

Autolycus wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

The low heals are just terrible for PvP. We didn't need a HoT, and the class is focused on burst damage.

Those bolded portions are very generalized statements, hence why I said I haven't said "much" about pvp. Anybody who reads the patch notes can draw those conclusions.

Are they not reliable? Are they not consistent? Are they reduced by impen?

Did I say that made stam sorcs amazing in pvp? No.

Yeah, and I never implied you pretended to have played Sorc extensively in PvP. Back to reality then.

Let's go through the bolded quotes:

"1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both."
If you want to be even remotely competitive, don't play a light armor magicka Sorc without shields. With the higher damage now, shields became even more important, not less.

"What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp."
Actually it is barely more reliable for a magicka Sorc who uses almost no "DoTs", and neither for a stamina Sorc who lost his guaranteed burst heal from crit charge.

"For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits."
Of course, this was changed over a year ago with 1.6, the update that butchered Surge in the first place.

I don't PvE a lot and don't have much of a clue how Surge will work out there. I just expect PvEers to not understate it's nerf for PvP then.

Edit:

I realize that most of our pvp builds are very burst-centric, and that against pretty much everyone except a shielded target, those heals were a lot more potent. But we've also been whining about how we can't get our crit heals against targets with shields, and this is what they gave us. I'm 100% certain it wasn't my fault they made the change. I'm one person, finding its value in content today, because it's not like tomorrow it's going back to the way it was.

Actually Surge was at least intended to, and if my memory doesn't fail me actually worked against shields after 1.6. I did hear it didn't work that way later on, if true, it could have just been fixed instead of reworked, form a PvP perspective.

Birdovic

@ToRelax

If I remember correctly, surge did work on shields again, but it was a very small Amount of dmg, so the heal still was *BEEP*.

For PvP, the new Surge actually was pretty interesting on PTS Patch 2.4.2, where Battlespirit didnt reduce the Healing.
But then ZOS came and fixed something not needing a fix...

Waffennacht

Stamsorc stamsorc stamsorc...

Magicka sorc came first and has been nerfed. Stamsorc has weapon abilities, abilities I'd give both my stupid staves up for!

The ONLY reason a heal from Surge was good WAS the Overload heal. Any Sorc (magicka cuz we matter...) shouldn't have any consistent damage done to the health bar. Only massive hits that go through the ward, meaning any small heals are useless. Big one time heals are the only useful heal for a sorc.

But seeing as we only used Surge for the boost and a rare Overload heal, the change doesn't do too much nerfing

Birdovic

Waffennacht wrote: »

Stamsorc stamsorc stamsorc...

Magicka sorc came first and has been nerfed. Stamsorc has weapon abilities, abilities I'd give both my stupid staves up for!

The ONLY reason a heal from Surge was good WAS the Overload heal. Any Sorc (magicka cuz we matter...) shouldn't have any consistent damage done to the health bar. Only massive hits that go through the ward, meaning any small heals are useless. Big one time heals are the only useful heal for a sorc.

But seeing as we only used Surge for the boost and a rare Overload heal, the change doesn't do too much nerfing

Magicka sorc came first where..?

Autolycus

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Autolycus wrote:

I just gave you several reasons for using it. My stam sorc has room on his bars for both surge and armaments, so I really don't see why it's a problem for you.

Calling it silly doesn't make it false. I've given you some concrete information for consideration, none of which you've actually addressed. If you refuse to acknowledge logic and the data that supports it, then I guess I have nothing else of value to provide to you. Perhaps something even sillier than Wrobel's changes to surge is playing a class for which you have such utter disdain. If it's really so bad for you, then go play a different class that isn't so silly. The changes we see here brought Sorcs, as a class, more in balance with other classes.

Also loling at the bolded quote.

We pushed 40k as magicka users using a boring strategy that hasn't changed. Overload spamming.

Stam sorcs still don't have a single target dps ability, we lost a cc if we want to maintain dps because of wb nerf, our last place dps just took another step back, and our survivability (our once, class-defining thing) got nerfed. 26k dps turned into 27k with hurricane, assuming you can stay alive.

Magicka sorcs were easily meltable by anyone with half of a brain, and the nerf did nothing to the functionality of shield stacking, just made it more annoying for sorcs to maintain.

You say it was to keep us in par with other classes, but why did the stam sorc receive the same HoT nerf for crit surge if that was the case?

We got rekt. We can't do anything because people like you attempt to eloquently state that 3k > 16k.

Or, call out the fact that "16k hps is OP"

What about nb stealth?

What about dk passives?

What about TEMPLAR JABS OR BOL?

Should every class ability that heals be nerfed into a HoT? Should jabs be capped at 3k hps?

Just gtfo man, you don't know this class.

I think this tops my favorite QQ post about NB cloak nerfs. I remember all the sorcs pilling on to that one too, "HAHA you deserve it suck it NBs!" and then suddenly it's "oh no don't nerf my surge bruh." Class rebalancing happens.

Prior to this update, stam sorcs going into vMA turned and walked out after the first arena (well, most of them anyway). Now stam sorcs can actually heal themselves without having to do a WB and get 1-shot in the process. Any other form of content is easier as a stam sorc now too, because I don't have to "hope" for that one large crit to put me back at full if my healer goes down, or the fact that I can now heal myself while simultaneously getting a rez. Sorc tanks now have a viable means of self-sustaining, so any vet dungeon runs that wish to do so without a healer can more easily now, and the viability of a dps/tank hybrid for sorcs is higher now than ever as well.

And you're mad because you don't have a spammable class skill yet? Seriously, we've been asking for this for months and they aren't going to budge. Do you know why? Because of vMA weapons. As a melee stam sorc, I would not take a spammable class skill over the vMA flurry combo. It would be a massive dps loss. That's why you don't see stam DKs whining right now about how they need a stam whip for pve content... it's for the same reasons.

Magicka sorc dps has always been boring. I fail to see how a rebalance to surge has any impact whatsoever on your boring overload rotation, so QQ me something more relevant. Your remarks imply that I once said something even remotely close to 3k > 16k. Again with the extrapolation. Learn to read and not take things out of context. I'm not going to waste my time debating with someone who can't even stick to the point. If you'd put your immature rage aside for half a post you'd probably realize there are things we agree on too (and you've already stated things in your post that I mentioned earlier, so you obviously just hopped onto this post b/c you wanted someone to rage at, not b/c you actually read what I put).

You say I don't know this class, yet somehow I have both well-geared endgame stam and mag sorcs and have been playing them for two years. In that time, I've never seen a stam sorc do anything as effectively solo as they do since DB. Get off your "poor me, my shields my heals" and wake up and smell the rebalance. It's not going anywhere. At least they didn't redesign Evil Hunter to ignore damage shields or something, which is what keeps happening to NBs. Or the neverending cycle of buffing Templar houses but giving them no way to escape a thrashing and inevitable det moshes. You get a change that makes you have to use a skill other than overload in vMA and it's the end of the world. Grow. Up.

At least don't pretend to PvP extensively then. Since the Surge changes definitely do not help stam Sorcs there.

Pretending? I've not even said much about the implications of these changes for sorcs in pvp. Really, that entire quote is about pve.

These quotes are what I was referring to:

Autolycus wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Hi @Wrobel , I have been playing Magicka Sorc since day 1, but after the changes to shields especially (don't get me started on Surge, I'm just glad I am not Stamina) I feel I will have to abandon my favourite class as soon as DB launches on Xbox as well. Good thing I have a Magicka Nightblade and a Stamina Templar ready to take over. I feel 6 seconds is not long enough for me to produce enough DPS, having to recast every 6 seconds. If I have them on my backbar it will be even worse. The community always complained about our shields, but now you've made it worse by changing Harness Magicka. We are gonig to be super hard to kill, but we will hardly be able to do as much damage as we previously did.
I hardly ever used power surge but it was fundamental for Stam sorcs to stay alive, now they have rubbish DPS and rubbish survivability. You justified this change by mentioning Tank Sorcs, WHO PLAYS THAT?!!! Who is it that gives you these feedbacks?? You want to be a tank? Play a Stam DK!

Which leads to a bigger concern of mine, during ESO live you talked about your idea of making all classes able to do everything (tanking, DPS, healing etc). I think it is a terrible idea. Every class should have good magicka/stamina alternatives, but they should be kept unique and interesting. Blending them together (like you did by giving shields to every Magicka build and capping them all at 6 seconds) and you will have a boring dynamic and experience. Sorcs greatest strength should be burst damage, DK's tanking and dots, Templars healing, Nightblades stealth. There can be some measure of overlapping, but don't give everything to everyone. Encourage rather to create brand new builds with other classes and races for different playstyles.

Nah I think its fine that you can put every class in every aspect to use.
However, putting Sorc in ANY aspect to use, that is the real problem. Its not good at anything, or others are much better.

A Sorc must be playable without shields, must have some unique buffs(be it passives or from active abilities) to contribute to allies, must have some kinds of reliable self heals and more DPS Potential which doesnt solely rely on Overload Spam.

1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both.
2. Every class provides a unique Minor buff to nearby allies. Sorcs give Minor Prophecy when activating a Dark Magic ability.
3. If you're running a magicka sorc, you can count on having an almost guaranteed 1-1.5k heal per second minimum. The reason for this? Surge can proc off of DoTs. The chance that any one of your abilities will crit each second is reliably high, especially those of us who are using the Thief. We aren't just doing one attack every second (or at least you shouldn't be if you are). In practice, you can have any number of things active to proc your heals: lightning flood, wall of elements, boundless storm, pet damage, force pulse, frags, mages fury, negate, overload... you get the idea. The practice of keeping these active for as close to 100% of the time as possible is what effectively guarantees these heals. Templars are the only class that beat this type of sustainable heal. For stam sorcs, it's closer to 3k+ per second.

I have played as and played with sorcs in pvp and pve for quite some time now, including the changes in in DB. I have yet to see a situation in which sorcs cannot reasonably participate. And in many cases, I see them pulling more weight than others.

Autolycus wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

I play the PS4 version as both stam and magicka sorc; I'm not a huge fan of the other classes. From my understanding (haven't played pts), both are becoming incredibly weaker post patch. I think the surge nerf is probably the one that hurts me most because my love for my stam sorc. The idea of it becoming a sustain ability for sorc tanks is just...well, not something I think is the right route. Too bad for me, I guess.

I suppose I'll try out this new patch when it comes around, but I'm likely to cancel my subscription if I feel my two mains are just too weak.

Dude no. Not too bad for you. A DoT, crit-based tank sounds idiotic and that's @Wrobel 's vision for the class. Idk what else there is to be said on the matter other than "WTF"

This is the direct quote:

Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done.

This is in no way indicative of an overall strategy for Sorcerers on the whole. Please do not to extrapolate and misconstrue what is actually said.

This change absolutely did not take Surge away from dps and healer builds and make it only viable for tanks. This is far from true. What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp. The higher your crit%, the more reliable the heal is. The higher your max stam/mag and SD/WD, the more potent the heal becomes. Since most dps builds utilize the Thief (or otherwise have a reasonable amount of crit%), this heal is virtually guaranteed to occur once per second. Additionally, it procs on DoT crits, which means for most builds, there is a plethora of damaging skills occurring simultaneously to further the likelihood of a heal proc.

The changes to Surge have made it a more reliable source of sustained heals. For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits. So no matter how much impen the other guy is stacking, you still get your heal. The only things that debuff this healing are Battle Spirit (which affects everyone) and Defile.

The low heals are just terrible for PvP. We didn't need a HoT, and the class is focused on burst damage.

Those bolded portions are very generalized statements, hence why I said I haven't said "much" about pvp. Anybody who reads the patch notes can draw those conclusions.

Are they not reliable? Are they not consistent? Are they reduced by impen?

Did I say that made stam sorcs amazing in pvp? No.

Yeah, and I never implied you pretended to have played Sorc extensively in PvP. Back to reality then.

Let's go through the bolded quotes:

"1. Sorcs are already playable without shields. Moreso in pve than pvp, but possible in both."
If you want to be even remotely competitive, don't play a light armor magicka Sorc without shields. With the higher damage now, shields became even more important, not less.

"What we are seeing here now is a reliable and consistent heal proc that isn't reduced by impen in pvp."
Actually it is barely more reliable for a magicka Sorc who uses almost no "DoTs", and neither for a stamina Sorc who lost his guaranteed burst heal from crit charge.

"For pvp specifically: Impen does not reduce the likelihood of a Surge proc, it only reduces the damage of crits."
Of course, this was changed over a year ago with 1.6, the update that butchered Surge in the first place.

I don't PvE a lot and don't have much of a clue how Surge will work out there. I just expect PvEers to not understate it's nerf for PvP then.

Edit:

I realize that most of our pvp builds are very burst-centric, and that against pretty much everyone except a shielded target, those heals were a lot more potent. But we've also been whining about how we can't get our crit heals against targets with shields, and this is what they gave us. I'm 100% certain it wasn't my fault they made the change. I'm one person, finding its value in content today, because it's not like tomorrow it's going back to the way it was.

Actually Surge was at least intended to, and if my memory doesn't fail me actually worked against shields after 1.6. I did hear it didn't work that way later on, if true, it could have just been fixed instead of reworked, form a PvP perspective.

I agree with pretty much all of this as it pertains to pvp. I could elaborate or provide further insight, but seeing how well that was received so far, I won't.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Well, I can say that the people I know that played a sorc and other classes and did very well at it say that sorcs are underperforming vastly compared to NB's for example. These are people that have 6-manned SO among other things and they find it so much easier to play any other class than a sorc these days or they've just quit the game entirely since zenimax doesn't know what they're doing at all.

Autolycus

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Well, I can say that the people I know that played a sorc and other classes and did very well at it say that sorcs are underperforming vastly compared to NB's for example. These are people that have 6-manned SO among other things and they find it so much easier to play any other class than a sorc these days or they've just quit the game entirely since zenimax doesn't know what they're doing at all.

You're saying that Sorcs are difficult to play?

That's the first time I've ever heard someone say that.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Autolycus wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Well, I can say that the people I know that played a sorc and other classes and did very well at it say that sorcs are underperforming vastly compared to NB's for example. These are people that have 6-manned SO among other things and they find it so much easier to play any other class than a sorc these days or they've just quit the game entirely since zenimax doesn't know what they're doing at all.

You're saying that Sorcs are difficult to play?

That's the first time I've ever heard someone say that.

Well, any other class is easier to play, so you can interpret it like that I guess. But yeah, my friend told me how it was so much easier to play a NB than a sorc.