Advice on a magica NB sap tank

Brrrofski

So I really want to make one. I have 8 v16s so can't create one from scratch. I have a breton magica NB but want to keep that for pvp.

I have a redguard stam Nb, will this work well for a sap tank? Max stam, some regen and adrenaline rush. With Siphoning strikes up, a light attack would net me around 2k stam every second. I'm thinking that might be nice right?

What is bis for a 5 piece for tanking? Hopefully including jewellery. 5 kagernacs, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian is what I was thinking. Drop to 4 Kags on back bar which would be resto. Or would 5 twice born be better? I would need divines pariah and EG, which rng may screw me with. Prismatic enchants on everything I assume.

Bars I'm thinking:
Absorb magica
Sap essence
Pierce armor
Swallow soul
Refreshing path
Veil of blades/war horn

Structured entropy
Shades
Healing ward/rapid regen
Siphoning strikes
Mirage
Soul tether

Not sure what I'd drop for inner fire though

Anyone with a sap tank think this is viable? It won't be trial tanking, but would like to self sustain in imperial City prison (run with 3 dps).

Cously

If you don't get anything try hit Tamriel Foundry, they have great guides and opinions there. I'm sure I saw a SAP Tank thread somewhere.

Brrrofski

Yeh, I did have a look around.

Most seem outdated as they mention caltrops with Siphoning strikes, which I know was nerfed last patch.

Shame I didn't have one before, sustain seemed like a dream

Fignutz821

Deltias gaming has one on his website

TheDarkShadow

I have an Inperial sap tank, using seducer, engine guard, willpower and endurance. Skills: sap, siphon, funnel, heal ward, inner fire, double take, path of darkness, absorb magic, entropy. Ult depend on situation, usually barrier + 1 offense ult, veil or dawnbreaker or meteor or war horn. All points to magicka, health enchants, I dont have lots of problem with stam. I rely on self heal from sap, ward and funnel. Only block the big cc hit.

Cously

Brrrofski wrote: »

Yeh, I did have a look around.

Most seem outdated as they mention caltrops with Siphoning strikes, which I know was nerfed last patch.

Shame I didn't have one before, sustain seemed like a dream

Deltia is a good source as well, but most theorycrafters will wait until DB hits since massive changes are coming in. I advice you to wait for it, whilst the PTS patch notes are pretty close to the final release, you can never trust until its "official". So you might end up wasting time/gear/money in the wrong way. DB will be here soon.

Brrrofski

I've seen deltas. I haven't tanked in about 3 or so months, but how important is getting to 33k on resistances? I don't see how deltas does. Or is the pure amount of self healing from those sets good enough to not worry about resistances?

Chriagon

I think a breton magicka nightblade is the best choice for a sap tank, because you basically produce stamina by spamming sap essence. And magicka cost reduction is better than regeneration for spamming abilities, especially expensive abilities imo.

I'm using 5 pieces desert rose (sturdy trait because of bracing changes in Dark Brotherhood), 2 pieces Alessia's Bulwark heavy reinforced, 3 pieces Bahraha's Curse jewelry (magicka cost reduction) plus Bahraha's Curse sword (sharpened) and shield (reinforced).

Abilities: Sap Essence, Siphoning Attacks, Refreshing Path, Swallow Soul and Inner Light

Brrrofski

Also, is redguard too much of a handicap? Or will adrenaline rush with Siphoning strikes work well

Brrrofski

Chriagon wrote: »

I think a breton magicka nightblade is the best choice for a sap tank, because you basically produce stamina by spamming sap essence. And magicka cost reduction is better than regeneration for spamming abilities, especially expensive abilities imo.

I'm using 5 pieces desert rose (sturdy trait because of bracing changes in Dark Brotherhood), 2 pieces Alessia's Bulwark heavy reinforced, 3 pieces Bahraha's Curse jewelry (magicka cost reduction) plus Bahraha's Curse sword (sharpened) and shield (reinforced).

Abilities: Sap Essence, Siphoning Attacks, Refreshing Path, Swallow Soul and Inner Light

I really like my breton for pvp though

Chriagon

Brrrofski wrote: »

I really like my breton for pvp though

Maybe you could just change the gear then... I think if you don't need your sap tank for "hardcore tanking" you don't necessarily need cp block cost reduction and shield expert is basically a free passive for everyone after Dark Brotherhood...

Brrrofski

Chriagon wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I really like my breton for pvp though

Maybe you could just change the gear then... I think if you don't need your sap tank for "hardcore tanking" you don't necessarily need cp block cost reduction and shield expert is basically a free passive for everyone after Dark Brotherhood...

I could do that.

Do you think 5 Kags, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian would give me enough sustain and also mitigation?

Last time I tanked on my Dk I made sure I hit the 33k resistance cap. Do I need to do that on a sap tank?

Aisle9

Brrrofski wrote: »

I really like my breton for pvp though

So, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you be able to use it for both ?

Coz that's what I'm trying to do...

Brrrofski

Aisle9 wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I really like my breton for pvp though

So, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you be able to use it for both ?

Coz that's what I'm trying to do...

I did it before with my Dk.

You have to change cp around for one or the other. Anything in block expertise or quick recovery for instance I might want in resistant for pvp. Points in staff expert would be useless in pve, where blessed may be more beneficial.

You always have to play around with CP to get the most out of each situation.

Chriagon

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chriagon wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I really like my breton for pvp though

Maybe you could just change the gear then... I think if you don't need your sap tank for "hardcore tanking" you don't necessarily need cp block cost reduction and shield expert is basically a free passive for everyone after Dark Brotherhood...

I could do that.

Do you think 5 Kags, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian would give me enough sustain and also mitigation?

Last time I tanked on my Dk I made sure I hit the 33k resistance cap. Do I need to do that on a sap tank?

That's difficult for me to answer. Im not a particular good player and I don't have any monster sets so far.

From my experience, if you really want to be able to spam sap essence a lot, you need magicka cost reduction jewelry plus a high magicka regeneration, don't know how good the engine guardian set does...

With regard to mitigation it depends, if you need your sap tank to solo hordes of mobs, where each mob doesn't do too much damage on his own, you don't need much mitigation. If you fight a boss who can deal a lot of damage then you need more mitigation since sap essence/swallow soul/refreshing path might not be enough to keep you alive then.

I think you should just try it, soloing the Vaults of Madness or the Blessed Crucible is good for testing imo...

Autolycus

Brrrofski wrote: »

So I really want to make one. I have 8 v16s so can't create one from scratch. I have a breton magica NB but want to keep that for pvp.

I have a redguard stam Nb, will this work well for a sap tank? Max stam, some regen and adrenaline rush. With Siphoning strikes up, a light attack would net me around 2k stam every second. I'm thinking that might be nice right?

What is bis for a 5 piece for tanking? Hopefully including jewellery. 5 kagernacs, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian is what I was thinking. Drop to 4 Kags on back bar which would be resto. Or would 5 twice born be better? I would need divines pariah and EG, which rng may screw me with. Prismatic enchants on everything I assume.

Bars I'm thinking:
Absorb magica
Sap essence
Pierce armor
Swallow soul
Refreshing path
Veil of blades/war horn

Structured entropy
Shades
Healing ward/rapid regen
Siphoning strikes
Mirage
Soul tether

Not sure what I'd drop for inner fire though

Anyone with a sap tank think this is viable? It won't be trial tanking, but would like to self sustain in imperial City prison (run with 3 dps).

Hello @Brrrofski , my name is Auto and I will be your build helper today. This is for a magicka build, and you can absolutely do this as a Redguard, if it's something that seems appealing to your playstyle. This build utilizes purple vr15 tri-food.

Gear

5 Footman - 3 jewelry and 2 minor armor pieces
Small Group Content: 5 Bahraha's Curse (for stam or magicka) and 2 Optional (I recommend Endurance or Hist Bark, or a Monster 2set if you prefer)
Trials Content: 5 Tava's Favor and 2 Blood Spawn

Prismatic enchants on large pieces (infused) and optional enchants on small pieces (probably divines, but doesn't matter to any great extent. Depends on your mundus, and truthfully your mundus could be pretty much anything you want. If you have 26k+ health (including food, not including Battle Spirit) I would use magicka glyphs on minor pieces.

Making use of Undaunted Mettle is optional in this setup. The extra resources never hurt anybody, but this was designed to work with a 7/7 heavy setup. You can do either.

Attributes

About 20 points or so into health, with the ultimate goal being at least 26-27k after food buffs and enchants. The rest of your points can go into magicka or stamina. I recommend putting them into magicka as a NB saptank, which boosts your healing and damage potential from class skills. With proper timing, siphoning attacks alone can sustain you without having to sap. Sapping for resources is more of a "huge trash pull" kind of strategy. Light attacks are the b&b of NB sustain.

Champion Points (catered specifically to a Redguard, note: allocation changes in DB)

The Steed: 74 Block Expert, 1 Spell Shield
The Lord: 20-30 Quick Recovery (yes, this is more than most people recommend)
The Lady: Everything else into Hardy, Elemental Defender, and Thick Skinned. Put twice as many points into Hardy as the other two.

The Tower: split between Magician and Warlord, and you should allocate how you see fit. I recommend overweighting Magician, because this build uses stamina for only blocking and two skills.
The Lover: You don't need much by way of recoveries, especially stamina. If you put points into recovery, try to minimize this as best as you can.
The Shadow: Any extra points you have, put them into Tumbling and Elusive. Overweight Tumbling and underweight Elusive.

The Apprentice: 100 Elemental Expert, ~10 in Blessed, and 42 Elfborn
The Ritual: All extra points into Thaumaturge.

Skills

Bar 1: Pierce Armor, Double Take, Defensive Stance, Swallow Soul, Siphoning Attacks. Ult: Agg. War Horn or VoB
Bar 2: Inner Fire, Sap Essence, Deep Slash, Swallow Soul, <optional> (I use Siphoning Attacks here too, but sometimes swap for Concealed Weapon for Major Ward/Resolve). Ult: Soul Harvest

For IC sewers runs, I would swap VoB for Soul Tether. Until DB, Dawnbreaker of Smiting is also a great option, but note that once DB hits live, either morph of Dawnbreaker is pretty much pointless in this build, aside from knockdown utility.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I am working on one as well. Is Redguard the ideal race? No. Your Breton would be better. Can you make it work? Sure, just wont be quite as good. I think the point of a sap tank is to stay alive through stealing health, not necessarily from blocking 24/7. I don't really see this as a stam build. Mine will use 64 points into magic, and probably some tri food for the a little extra stam. My goal is to be able to run this with a magic DPS spec in terms of CP, and I just want to change bars and gear.

I think Bahrahas Curse is a pretty good way to start this build. You can get jewelry and sword/shield for less than 5K total if you look around a bit. The first 3 bonuses just boost raw stats, and the last bonus screams sap tank. Its a snare, damage and heal for the damage done.

I think there are a few sets that would compliment this very nicely. A crafted set like Seducer or Kags or Magnus would probably be pretty good. They are very easy to obtain and all have pros and cons. I plan to run Leeching Plate from ICP. It is a very similar 5 piece bonus to Bahrahas Curse, the only downside is that its poison damage instead of magic damage, so it wont scale as well. It does get a double boost to healing received which is nice.

As for the head shoulders, I think your best choices would be: Bloodspawn for mitigation/stam regen, Engine guardian for pure resource management, or Malubeth if you want even more life stealing. I plan to start with Malubeth and see how it goes. I am not sure how deadly it will make you, but I see this as being able to basically stand inside a zerg and not die.

I will have an Altmer NB once patch drops that I will need to take into PVP at least long enough to get prox det. Rather than the typical Vicious Death/Alchemist set, I plan to give this a try, both because its a little outside the box, and I already have the gear.

My Bars are definitely not set in stone. Will probably start with something like this:

Sword and Board: Sap essence, Lotus Fan, Funnel Health, Absorb Magic, Harness Magic, Meteor or Soul Harvest.

Resto: Siphoning Strikes, Refreshing Path, Rapid Regen, Prox Det, Flex Spot (Rapid Maneuver, impale, Cripple, Healing Ward), Veil of Blades

Autolycus

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am working on one as well. Is Redguard the ideal race? No. Your Breton would be better. Can you make it work? Sure, just wont be quite as good. I think the point of a sap tank is to stay alive through stealing health, not necessarily from blocking 24/7. I don't really see this as a stam build.

The highlight of NB tanks is sustainability. "Perma-blocking" is the easiest and most reliably possible for a NB than any other class because of Siphoning Attacks. Many will suggest that it's unreliable because you have to drop block to light attack.

According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less. In a typical tank pull (regardless of class), enemies all begin attacking at the same time, which means that it's actually not too difficult to time your blocks perfectly so that you only drop block in the downtime between each 0.5s interval. Before going any further, I feel it is important to note that it is possible for enemies to be out-of-synch with their attacks. In cases like this, timing is much more difficult, but in most cases attacks are in-sync.

This does sound complicated, I know. But it's really just a timing issue. What's the difference between holding block "permanently" or blocking every attack with light attacks in between? There really is no difference. Blocking every attack is perma-blocking, period.

Light attack resource return from Siphoning Attacks is substantial and is highly undervalued. With the right setup, light attacks alone will sustain every block you make. Sap Essence is just a cushion, geared predominantly for large trash pulls. I ran the numbers, and in my setup at least, one light attack every 0.5s is enough to offset any number of enemies I block. I actually recover several hundred magicka and stamina in excess of what it cost me to block, and this does account for everything from single bosses to large trash pulls. Once you start tanking 20-30 enemies is when you need Sap Essence, and that is not a substitute for light attacks. At this point, you do both.

code65536

Race: Dunmer or Breton. Breton's Spell Resistance and cost reduction is nice. Dunmer's 6% stam bonus is nice. Going with a magicka race also means that you can gear-swap out of tanking and into DPS.

Resistances: Don't bother with hitting the resistance cap. The changes to CP in TG mean that you can get a lot of damage mitigation from Hardy and Elemental Defender. The CP changes in the upcoming DB patch will mean even more red points for you to spend.

Gear: Select two of the following 5p sets: Kagrenac (crafted), Tava's Favor (crafted), Ebon Armory (BoE dropped with jewelry), and Bahara's Curse (BoE dropped with jewelry). Personally, I'd go Kag+BC for 4-man content and TF+Ebon for trials. This leaves you another 2p that you can use for a monster set. I think that Engine Guardian is an especially good fit for a saptank because you will likely be spamming abilities every cooldown. Saptanks cast much more than other tanks and so are better suited to take advantage of EG than other tanks. That said, EG provides zero group utility, and if you have no resource problems without EG, then another set like Blood Spawn, Lord Warden, or Malubeth would be better.

There are three other popular tanking sets that often gets mentioned, but I would advise against using them: Hist Bark, Footman, and Armor Master. I do not recommend Hist Bark because nightblades have access to a magicka-cost source of Major Evasion. I do not recommend Footman because of diminishing returns on mitigation and the fact that, with the help of CP, you should have more than enough mitigation (even more so after DB). Yes, even in trials, Footman is overkill. Tanking in this game is about resources, and Footman provides absolutely no help in that department. And Armor Master suffers from the same problems as Footman. Also, all three of these sets are selfish sets that provide zero group utility.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Autolycus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am working on one as well. Is Redguard the ideal race? No. Your Breton would be better. Can you make it work? Sure, just wont be quite as good. I think the point of a sap tank is to stay alive through stealing health, not necessarily from blocking 24/7. I don't really see this as a stam build.

The highlight of NB tanks is sustainability. "Perma-blocking" is the easiest and most reliably possible for a NB than any other class because of Siphoning Attacks. Many will suggest that it's unreliable because you have to drop block to light attack.

According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less. In a typical tank pull (regardless of class), enemies all begin attacking at the same time, which means that it's actually not too difficult to time your blocks perfectly so that you only drop block in the downtime between each 0.5s interval.

This does sound complicated, I know. But it's really just a timing issue. What's the difference between holding block "permanently" or blocking every attack with light attacks in between? There really is no difference. Blocking every attack is perma-blocking, period.

Light attack resource return from Siphoning Attacks is substantial is highly undervalued. With the right setup, light attacks alone will sustain every block you make. Sap Essence is just a cushion, geared predominantly for large trash pulls. I ran the numbers, and in my setup at least, one light attack every 0.5s is enough to offset any number of enemies I block. I actually recover several hundred magicka and stamina in excess of what it cost me to block, and this does account for everything from single bosses to large trash pulls. Once you start tanking 20-30 enemies is when you need Sap Essence, and that is not a substitute for light attacks. At this point, you do both.

Very interesting and good to know. To be clear, I wasnt suggesting that a Sap Tank doesnt need to block. Still running a sword and board and absorb magic after all. haha. I was trying to indicate that I don't see this as a straight stam build with a big stam pool to deal with blocking all day, which is kinda what it appeared the OP was suggesting. Maybe I misinterpreted that. Also, I really don't plan to tank PVE content with this. Like I said, I am more going for a damage sponge on the battle field. Someone that can stand on the breach and make the bad guys want to get out of my AOE. Siphoning attacks will absolutely be the main way I keep my stam pool up, both with weaving light attacks and block casting Sap. I havent tanked on a NB in quite some time, and when I did, it was a much more traditional tank setup. The resource management on NBs is amazing, no question about it.

Dubhliam

Autolycus wrote: »

...
According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less. In a typical tank pull (regardless of class), enemies all begin attacking at the same time, which means that it's actually not too difficult to time your blocks perfectly so that you only drop block in the downtime between each 0.5s interval. Before going any further, I feel it is important to note that it is possible for enemies to be out-of-synch with their attacks. In cases like this, timing is much more difficult, but in most cases attacks are in-sync.
...

This is not how I understood it.
If you don't hold block at the time of impact, you don't mitigate the damage. Period.
The 0.5 sec are referred to stamina cost of blocking. Meaning you can only lose X stamina ONCE from blocking every 0.5 seconds, even if you get hit multiple times during those 0.5 seconds.
That does not mean if you press block for a short period, you will continue to block for 0,5 seconds.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am working on one as well. Is Redguard the ideal race? No. Your Breton would be better. Can you make it work? Sure, just wont be quite as good. I think the point of a sap tank is to stay alive through stealing health, not necessarily from blocking 24/7. I don't really see this as a stam build.

The highlight of NB tanks is sustainability. "Perma-blocking" is the easiest and most reliably possible for a NB than any other class because of Siphoning Attacks. Many will suggest that it's unreliable because you have to drop block to light attack.

According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less. In a typical tank pull (regardless of class), enemies all begin attacking at the same time, which means that it's actually not too difficult to time your blocks perfectly so that you only drop block in the downtime between each 0.5s interval.

This does sound complicated, I know. But it's really just a timing issue. What's the difference between holding block "permanently" or blocking every attack with light attacks in between? There really is no difference. Blocking every attack is perma-blocking, period.

Light attack resource return from Siphoning Attacks is substantial is highly undervalued. With the right setup, light attacks alone will sustain every block you make. Sap Essence is just a cushion, geared predominantly for large trash pulls. I ran the numbers, and in my setup at least, one light attack every 0.5s is enough to offset any number of enemies I block. I actually recover several hundred magicka and stamina in excess of what it cost me to block, and this does account for everything from single bosses to large trash pulls. Once you start tanking 20-30 enemies is when you need Sap Essence, and that is not a substitute for light attacks. At this point, you do both.

Very interesting and good to know. To be clear, I wasnt suggesting that a Sap Tank doesnt need to block. Still running a sword and board and absorb magic after all. haha. I was trying to indicate that I don't see this as a straight stam build with a big stam pool to deal with blocking all day, which is kinda what it appeared the OP was suggesting. Maybe I misinterpreted that. Also, I really don't plan to tank PVE content with this. Like I said, I am more going for a damage sponge on the battle field. Someone that can stand on the breach and make the bad guys want to get out of my AOE. Siphoning attacks will absolutely be the main way I keep my stam pool up, both with weaving light attacks and block casting Sap. I havent tanked on a NB in quite some time, and when I did, it was a much more traditional tank setup. The resource management on NBs is amazing, no question about it.

Edit: also totally forgot to put some morph of blur on my bar setup that I mentioned. A 20% dodge chance is too good to pass up for sure.

code65536

Autolycus wrote: »

According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less.

Um, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what he meant. There is no cooldown on block, And no cooldown on the number of attacks you receive. The only cooldown is on the cost of block.

Autolycus wrote: »

Light attack resource return from Siphoning Attacks is substantial and is highly undervalued. With the right setup, light attacks alone will sustain every block you make. Sap Essence is just a cushion, geared predominantly for large trash pulls. I ran the numbers, and in my setup at least, one light attack every 0.5s is enough to offset any number of enemies I block. I actually recover several hundred magicka and stamina in excess of what it cost me to block, and this does account for everything from single bosses to large trash pulls. Once you start tanking 20-30 enemies is when you need Sap Essence, and that is not a substitute for light attacks. At this point, you do both.

This much, I'll agree with--the RNG procs from ability attacks pale in comparison to the guaranteed procs from light attacks. That said, I don't think it's even possible to light attack more than once per second. And the risk of dropping block to light attack should not be so quickly discounted (though it is preferable to dropping block to heavy attack). Frankly, it's a risk that I would not recommend most tanks to take when tanking something like Mantikora. Being able to sustain stamina without dropping block is essential in certain situations, and in that regard, DKs have it easier than nightblades (and sorcs and Templars have it worse).

Malmai

Brrrofski wrote: »

So I really want to make one. I have 8 v16s so can't create one from scratch. I have a breton magica NB but want to keep that for pvp.

I have a redguard stam Nb, will this work well for a sap tank? Max stam, some regen and adrenaline rush. With Siphoning strikes up, a light attack would net me around 2k stam every second. I'm thinking that might be nice right?

What is bis for a 5 piece for tanking? Hopefully including jewellery. 5 kagernacs, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian is what I was thinking. Drop to 4 Kags on back bar which would be resto. Or would 5 twice born be better? I would need divines pariah and EG, which rng may screw me with. Prismatic enchants on everything I assume.

Bars I'm thinking:
Absorb magica
Sap essence
Pierce armor
Swallow soul
Refreshing path
Veil of blades/war horn

Structured entropy
Shades
Healing ward/rapid regen
Siphoning strikes
Mirage
Soul tether

Not sure what I'd drop for inner fire though

Anyone with a sap tank think this is viable? It won't be trial tanking, but would like to self sustain in imperial City prison (run with 3 dps).

Sap tank is not good as it was now its like 50% weaker...

Brrrofski

Malmai wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

So I really want to make one. I have 8 v16s so can't create one from scratch. I have a breton magica NB but want to keep that for pvp.

I have a redguard stam Nb, will this work well for a sap tank? Max stam, some regen and adrenaline rush. With Siphoning strikes up, a light attack would net me around 2k stam every second. I'm thinking that might be nice right?

What is bis for a 5 piece for tanking? Hopefully including jewellery. 5 kagernacs, 5 pariah and 2 engine guardian is what I was thinking. Drop to 4 Kags on back bar which would be resto. Or would 5 twice born be better? I would need divines pariah and EG, which rng may screw me with. Prismatic enchants on everything I assume.

Bars I'm thinking:
Absorb magica
Sap essence
Pierce armor
Swallow soul
Refreshing path
Veil of blades/war horn

Structured entropy
Shades
Healing ward/rapid regen
Siphoning strikes
Mirage
Soul tether

Not sure what I'd drop for inner fire though

Anyone with a sap tank think this is viable? It won't be trial tanking, but would like to self sustain in imperial City prison (run with 3 dps).

Sap tank is not good as it was now its like 50% weaker...

It's just something I've always wanted do.

I know redguard isn't probably the ideal race, but the stam, regen and adrenaline rush may work well. It was originally a stam Nb, but I hate how it plays in pvp. Even my magica NB, I play with a frost staff. The gank and stealth style isn't me. So I want to make use of this.

We need more tanks inmy guild and I've already tanked on my Dk. So thought I'll give this a try.

Thanks for the advice guys.

So resistance isn't too important on a sap tank? I don't need to hit the 33k cap?

Autolycus

Dubhliam wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

...
According to Wrobel, who so conveniently released this information two years after the game released, the cost of blocking is deducted from your stamina pool at most every 0.5s. Which means all you have to do is have your shield up every 0.5s, more or less. In a typical tank pull (regardless of class), enemies all begin attacking at the same time, which means that it's actually not too difficult to time your blocks perfectly so that you only drop block in the downtime between each 0.5s interval. Before going any further, I feel it is important to note that it is possible for enemies to be out-of-synch with their attacks. In cases like this, timing is much more difficult, but in most cases attacks are in-sync.
...

This is not how I understood it.
If you don't hold block at the time of impact, you don't mitigate the damage. Period.
The 0.5 sec are referred to stamina cost of blocking. Meaning you can only lose X stamina ONCE from blocking every 0.5 seconds, even if you get hit multiple times during those 0.5 seconds.
That does not mean if you press block for a short period, you will continue to block for 0,5 seconds.

code65536 wrote: »

Um, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what he meant. There is no cooldown on block, And no cooldown on the number of attacks you receive. The only cooldown is on the cost of block.

Your understanding is correct and the same as what I was stating, but perhaps my explanation was unclear. Before going on, allow me to clarify that I'm not stating that you cannot still block another attack in the 0.5s window. The reason this is somewhat implied is because enemies typically begin attacking at the same time, and they do have an ICD of 0.5s on their attacks, according to Wrobel. By this logic, we can safely presume that if every enemy begins attacking at the same time, there is nothing to block in that 0.5s window. This leaves us open to utilize that 0.5s of down time for light attacks.

My point was an extension of that concept. Let's demonstrate this way, sorry in advance for the rudimentary illustration, and let's assume a single enemy that attacks every 0.5s:

Time 0s = Pull mob
Time 0.5s = Mob attacks, you block

Between 0.5s and 1.0s you will not be charged for blocking another attack. In this case, with only a single enemy, you will not see another attack between now and the 1.0s mark. This 0.5s window is your opportunity to light attack, which you can block cancel. Doing so will have you in a blocking state again at the 1.0s mark.

Time 1.0s = Mob attacks, you block

Another 0.5s window for another light attack > block cancel.

Time 1.5s = Mob attacks, you block.

Assuming that makes sense, we can see here that every half-second window between attacks is a window of opportunity for a light attack. Light attacks are guaranteed to restore resources with Siphoning Attacks, and block cancelling them is the ideal method of ensuring they land without having your shield down for too long.

If you find Wrobel's post and use his formulas to run the numbers based on your own stats, you can see how much it is costing you to block, and then offset that with the Siphoning Attacks return. You want your stats to reflect an end result that shows you gaining more resources back with light attacks than is costing you to block.

Since we rarely see only one enemy (we are not accounting for bosses in this post), it's important to consider that you must block multiple targets and the impact that will have on your resources. In practice, enemies typically begin attacking at the same time. This means that, when you block, you're blocking a number of attacks greater than one, and being charged for it once. The sum of all those attacks you blocked at that exact same moment should still be offset by your light attacks. The greater the number of enemies hitting you at this point, the more resources it will drain with that single block. It does not mean you cannot still light attack in between. It just means that with a greater number of enemies, the stronger the likelihood of you needing to sap (or another multi-target ability) to make up the difference.

With enough reduced block cost, you can work your build so that even a relatively large pull (let's say 10-15 enemies, which more closely lines up with dungeon pulls) only requires you to light attack in between each block. The idea here is that the light attack portion of Siphoning Attacks is the bread&butter of sustain, with the proc chance from using an ability like Sap is supplementary. The intent is to break the mentality that light attack weaving is not feasible, because there is enough time to light attack > block cancel in between virtually every attack.

(In the event of large pulls): Even if your light attack returns are not great enough to offset all of the cost of blocking, you can still Sap Essence while blocking. It looks identical to the method above, except replace "Mob attacks, you block" with "mob attacks, you block + sap."

Sometimes we take a hit unblocked, and that's okay. The idea is to be as self-reliant as possible to allow your group (including the healer) to really open up and contribute more to the fight, rather than focusing on you.

Autolycus

Malmai wrote: »

Sap tank is not good as it was now its like 50% weaker...

Actually sap tanks are in a really good place right now. We've seen two nerfs to NB tanking but both of those were offset by positive class or gear changes -or- were a deserving nerf because it was inherently unfair to other classes (as was the case with Siphoning Attacks + caltrops/path).

Gilliamtherogue

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/258008/the-bloodletter-an-evolution-to-sap-tanking-nightblade-tank-build#latest Hopefully has some useful information in there for ya.

code65536

Autolycus wrote: »

In this case, with only a single enemy, you will not see another attack between now and the 1.0s mark.

I don't see how you can draw such a conclusion from a block cost cooldown. An enemy's rate of attack and the cooldown on block cost are two separate, unrelated things.

The cooldown simply means that, after one block, all blocking is free for the next 0.5s. The rational move here is to capitalize on that and continue blocking.

Finding opportunities to drop block and light attack are wholly separate and unrelated to the cooldown on block cost charges. There will be times when you will block hits more frequently than once ever 0.5s (in multi-enemy scenarios or in some single-enemy scenarios such as the Overfiend's flurry, the "machine gun" attack from Lord Warden and Rakkhat, lurchers that land two separate hits in quick succession, etc.).

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't need to hit the 33k cap?

You do not. Most tanking guides that recommend hitting cap either predate Thieves Guild or have not taken into consideration the substantial changes to CP in Thieves Guild.

Autolycus

code65536 wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

In this case, with only a single enemy, you will not see another attack between now and the 1.0s mark.

I don't see how you can draw such a conclusion from a block cost cooldown. An enemy's rate of attack and the cooldown on block cost are two separate, unrelated things.

The cooldown simply means that, after one block, all blocking is free for the next 0.5s. The rational move here is to capitalize on that and continue blocking.

Finding opportunities to drop block and light attack are wholly separate and unrelated to the cooldown on block cost charges. There will be times when you will block hits more frequently than once ever 0.5s (in multi-enemy scenarios or in some single-enemy scenarios such as the Overfiend's flurry, the "machine gun" attack from Lord Warden and Rakkhat, lurchers that land two separate hits in quick succession, etc.).

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't need to hit the 33k cap?

You do not. Most tanking guides that recommend this predate Thieves Guild or have not taken into consideration the substantial changes to CP in Thieves Guild.

It's not just the block cost cooldown. It's also the ICD of trash mobs' attacks. Bosses attack once per second. Most other enemies attack once per 0.5s. If every enemy attacks at the same time, then every enemy must wait 0.5s to attack again. Take a close look the next time running a dungeon, and determine how many of the enemies attack at the exact same time following the pull. Not all will attack simultaneously, but most do. In most pulls, pulling a single mob also pulls the entire group. Any mob who is within range of attacking their target will do so immediately, and if this is the tank, said tank will absorb all attacks by all enemies targeting him/her simultaneously. The only ones that do not hit simultaneously are those who have not pulled or are not within range to attack.

This concept is a combination of that ICD and the cost of blocking. If the attack and the block coincide, there is 0.5s of down time in which there is nothing to block. The more enemies there are, the less likely all of them are going to attack simultaneously; However, in most cases enemies do begin attacking at the same time, in which case this rationale stands.

This would be substantially easier to demonstrate with a video, but that's a luxury I can't afford at the current time.

Aisle9

Absolutely not an expert on the topic, but in my [limited] experience with saptanking I can weave light attacks with sap/spammable abilities and still have block up in time to block most if not all attacks. Weaving takes approx .4s - .5s, therefore, empirical evidence seems to support this claim.