RIP SURGE - THANK YOU ZOS

Tyrannitar

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Im not too upset about crit surge. On live, my vigor ticks for 2k crit heals (on my weak bar)and i truly think it was overperforming before... i mean cmon 5k crit heals per sec? lol

Im upset that they STILL have not done anything about Crystal Blast, Dark Exchange, Unreliable Pets (especially in lag), and Passives such as Rebate (return 1k mag when a pet dies lolol). How can they possibly sit there and defend these abilities with a straight face?

Dude. I can pull more than 5k hps on live with the current surge. Idk if you play stam sorc or not honestly.... and if you don't stop giving feedback on this skill.

Are you talking Pvp or Pve?
I seriously doubt your surge is outhealing your vigor in Pvp.

Mine is by over a couple of thousand HPS.

Mine is by over a couple of thousand HPS as well. >.>

not on the pts though.

antihero727

The big thing most missed that I read was it scales off of crits. How many pvp builds run over 35% crit? This change would be ok if they changed cool down to .10 instead of 1.0 that was only one proc at a time but most spam damage faster that 1.0sec.

Gilliamtherogue

Nifty2g wrote: »

goodbai sorcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsxXvKnuZ7s

PainfulFAFA

antihero727 wrote: »

The big thing most missed that I read was it scales off of crits. How many pvp builds run over 35% crit? This change would be ok if they changed cool down to .10 instead of 1.0 that was only one proc at a time but most spam damage faster that 1.0sec.

I think what they meant by that is that your Surge heals will crit heal based on whatever crit is higher - Weapon or Spell.
There may have been an issue with Surge critting off of Spell Crit (since surge costs magicka) which is why they added that note.
Not sure if thats the reason but just a thought.

antihero727

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

The big thing most missed that I read was it scales off of crits. How many pvp builds run over 35% crit? This change would be ok if they changed cool down to .10 instead of 1.0 that was only one proc at a time but most spam damage faster that 1.0sec.

I think what they meant by that is that your Surge heals will crit heal based on whatever crit is higher - Weapon or Spell.
There may have been an issue with Surge critting off of Spell Crit (since surge costs magicka) which is why they added that note.
Not sure if thats the reason but just a thought.

The tooltip & patch notes wording gets confusing sometimes. My heart hit the floor on this nerf as I have both magica & stam sorcs. If the shield nerf wasn't bad enough. What's next frags scale off of health?

Grao

Mettaricana wrote: »

At this point Just remove surge give sorcs a spamable dps skill.

Surge is in the wrong tree, remove Useless Exchange, I mean, Dark Exchange instead and we can enjoy Blood Magic healing us more than Surge ever will in PvP or in PvE >.>

Cinbri

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

To be honest this is expectable: only mechanics with double effects halfly not affected by Battle Spirit to avoid double reduction. Mechanics without double effects should be affected by Battle Spirit otherwise it will make skills in pvp unequal, like: why Surge not affected by BS but Dragonblood affected..
Welcome to the same boat as Dragonblood, Sun Shield and Co.: skills that work in PvE but not work in PvP. Maybe be buff to healing required but being affected by BS is absolutley legit now.

So how about burning embers @Cinbri

What's up with them?

They are not affected by battle spirit. Heal for tons of HP - 75% of dmg inflicted turned into HP. And ofc its good, mDK need good heal, they need even better, but why nerfing surge to the grounds, can't get it seriously..

For exchange of Surge "fix", Empowered Ward shield and Minor Intellect duration increased by 2 seconds, 4 sec in total.
I am not sorc, so i don't know if such exchange is worth, but reading sorcs comments looks like it's not. But at least ZOS didn't took something away without compensation - it is huge fortune from templar's pov.
One again - welcome to the club. We also need to make one good skill of nbs to make useless for equlity.

What survivability did Stam Sorcs gain in exchange for this Surge nerf?

In exchange sorcs got increased ward time. Not affect stam sorc?! - #ZOSLogic

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Cooldown is still as strong as ever.

Here is some actual PTS testing of Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf)

Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge was changed so it doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a very strong cooldown.


Look at all the crits, with no heal.


What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

Isn't it better to just proc on big hits then only maybe proc on dots because of a cooldown? Isn't that the same issue we had with surge the first time the cooldown was put on the skill?

Xsorus

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Cooldown is still as strong as ever.

Here is some actual PTS testing of Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf)

Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge was changed so it doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a very strong cooldown.


Look at all the crits, with no heal.


What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

Isn't it better to just proc on big hits then only maybe proc on dots because of a cooldown? Isn't that the same issue we had with surge the first time the cooldown was put on the skill?

Cause it in an AOE situation with a MASSIVE AOE Dot like stamina sorcs have, heal proccing on every crit would be insanely overpowered.

I look at Surge like I look at Rally, its a Supplemental Heal.....My Main stamina heal is Vigor, I'll put Surge on the back bar with my Bow.

As for why i'd use Surge over rally, I'm Sword/Shield on my Stamina Sorc....

Ryuho

Increase crit surge flat heal by additional 2k, so tooltip would be 5k, in cyro 2.5k non crit heal. Increase frequency of healing ticks, change every 1 sec to 0,5 sec or even 0,25 sec.. Won't be OP but at least won't be an useless skill..

Jade1986

Sarousse wrote: »

The worse part in that is that they do internal meetings to take that kind of decisions.

Where is the lol button when you need it?

TheHsN

You can change the name now to POWERLESS SURGE....more fit....

Ryuho

TheHsN wrote: »

You can change the name now to POWERLESS SURGE....more fit....

lol

Junkogen

Why shouldn't crit surge heals be nerfed like every other heals in Cyrodiil? Seems fair to me. My Argonian passives get nerfed in half in Cyrodiil, why shouldn't an ability?

Derra

I love how ZOS has managed to turn ability that wasn´t great but atleast used by mag and stam sorcs alike into something both stam and mag sorc equally complain about because it´s:
Insufficient at what it does.
Worse than before in almost every scenario (and it was i a state where the ability was bad enough to need modification - it´s slightly better for tanks but those don´t need a small hot).

How can that happen?

STEVIL

Ryuho wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Thanks for the change to surge using either baseline.
Glad to see that.

Someone needs pair of glasses..

Huh?

Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher

How is that not a good thing?

The reports i saw iirc reported surge was healing crit based only on spell crit even for stam sorc.

This seems like a good step.

Right?

EDIT to add an aside, due to the specifics of my visual impairments, glasses dont help, not viable for transplant and the medical contacts only partly correct the issues... but thanks for the concern.

Derra

STEVIL wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Thanks for the change to surge using either baseline.
Glad to see that.

Someone needs pair of glasses..

Huh?

Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher

How is that not a good thing?

The reports i saw iirc reported surge was healing crit based only on spell crit even for stam sorc.

This seems like a good step.

Right?

If you´re the type of person that after having your car totaled by a drunk moron without insurance see´s that guy buying you a tricycle for compensation as a good step - well yeah then it´s a good step.

STEVIL

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Thanks for the change to surge using either baseline.
Glad to see that.

lol, you keep saying it's good that they're basically murdering sorcs, next patch they're completely dead, no use anywhere at all. Thanks for being part in murdering an entire class. What's next? Deleting the class too????

I said thanks for that positive change...

That you read it and see it as saying thanks for murdering a class is quite telling,

I have the ability to see this patch as making two changes to surge, one improving it, one not, and provide them positive feedback on the good while still suggesting and hoping for other needed improvements.

Or in your words... being a part in murdering a class.

On the overall subject of surge healing, it should be obvious by now...

It is unrealistic to expect surge to remain so powrrful sorcs can survive with it as "their only heal"
I, and i believe more importantly ZOS, do not believe surge SHOULD be as powerful at healing as spammed jabs when it applies as a buff to ALL attacks not just a short range aoe-ot.
In general, the "game balance idea" of "take one of the best pieces from another class and gimme it only better" isnt a viable methodology so repeatefly calking back to templar short range jabs as surge infinite healing just starts doa.

Derra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Thanks for the change to surge using either baseline.
Glad to see that.

Someone needs pair of glasses..

Huh?

Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher

How is that not a good thing?

The reports i saw iirc reported surge was healing crit based only on spell crit even for stam sorc.

This seems like a good step.

Right?

If you´re the type of person that after having your car totaled by a drunk moron without insurance see´s that guy buying you a tricycle for compensation as a good step - well yeah then it´s a good step.

It is just nuts that you can't even a knowledge parts that are positive without getting vitriolic drunk driver murder nonsense thrown back at you.

Derra

STEVIL wrote: »

It is just nuts that you can't even a knowledge parts that are positive without getting vitriolic drunk driver murder nonsense thrown back at you.

You don´t stand in front of a mob with torches and pitchforks and expect a rational discussion - or do you?

Also i did not speak of murder...

Birdovic

@STEVIL

The comparison @Derra made ("drunk driver nonsense" as you called it) Is pretty accurate.
With Patch 2.4.2 Surge Looked really good, then they Went and destroyed The overall really Accepted Change with 2.4.3.
So you say thanks for making it weaker..?

Now you're saying thanks for this awful Change?
I dont want to sound rude, but have you played a Stam Sorc or sorc at all?
I have The feeling you fail to see The Big impact These Changes are bringing about.

STEVIL

Derra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

It is just nuts that you can't even a knowledge parts that are positive without getting vitriolic drunk driver murder nonsense thrown back at you.

You don´t stand in front of a mob with torches and pitchforks and expect a rational discussion - or do you?

Also i did not speak of murder...

If you guys wsnt to class yourselves as mob with torches and pitchforks, go right ahead.
If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.
I wont do so as i would consider that inappropriate.

Derra

STEVIL wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

It is just nuts that you can't even a knowledge parts that are positive without getting vitriolic drunk driver murder nonsense thrown back at you.

You don´t stand in front of a mob with torches and pitchforks and expect a rational discussion - or do you?

Also i did not speak of murder...

If you guys wsnt to class yourselves as mob with torches and pitchforks, go right ahead.
If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.
I wont do so as i would consider that inappropriate.

I´ll quote myself to be a little clearer about my motivations:

Derra wrote: »

The problem is most people tried to give nonbiased insightful well structured information/feedback (edited in: tried to innitiate rational discussions) and it has fallen upon deaf ears (or blind eyes since we´re all reading if you wish). Or and that has happened shockingly often: Things got worse instead of better when ZOS began "fixing" things.

There is no reason to give detailed constructive criticism if it´s ignored anyway. Or when the person reading it can´t process the information because they´re working in a clean room environment of the game where they only apply theoretically sound solutions that don´t work in practice because they have no idea of what their product is like in practice.

I´ve posted long feedback on every update since 1.6 was on the pts and i´ve read countless posts and topics giving the same feedback as i did over the last year. It changed nothing.

As a result i don´t give a flying snusnu anymore and just post nonconstructive stuff whenever the urge strikes me. Bad product care gets you bad or disillusioned customers (oh well i admit i´m not paying anymore because why would i).

Hope that helps.

Minalan

Cinbri wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Ryuho wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

To be honest this is expectable: only mechanics with double effects halfly not affected by Battle Spirit to avoid double reduction. Mechanics without double effects should be affected by Battle Spirit otherwise it will make skills in pvp unequal, like: why Surge not affected by BS but Dragonblood affected..
Welcome to the same boat as Dragonblood, Sun Shield and Co.: skills that work in PvE but not work in PvP. Maybe be buff to healing required but being affected by BS is absolutley legit now.

So how about burning embers @Cinbri

What's up with them?

They are not affected by battle spirit. Heal for tons of HP - 75% of dmg inflicted turned into HP. And ofc its good, mDK need good heal, they need even better, but why nerfing surge to the grounds, can't get it seriously..

For exchange of Surge "fix", Empowered Ward shield and Minor Intellect duration increased by 2 seconds, 4 sec in total.
I am not sorc, so i don't know if such exchange is worth, but reading sorcs comments looks like it's not. But at least ZOS didn't took something away without compensation - it is huge fortune from templar's pov.
One again - welcome to the club. We also need to make one good skill of nbs to make useless for equlity.

It's not really a fair exchange. Empowered ward size is 33% less than Hardened.

So you're looking at a 10K shield in PVE, plus bastion about 12K. That's not terrible for content if you stack.

Problem is, thats around 5K in Cyrodiil, or 6k with bastion.

6K... Yeah. Have fun with your 6K class shield. The ONLY good thing about it, is that you can back-bar a ten second shield, and main-bar the harness Magicka shield.

code65536

STEVIL wrote: »

If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.

Judging from your history of posts on this topic in which you blatantly ignore rebuttals and continue to repeat nonsensical arguments and demonstrate no indication that you actually play a sorc... all I can say is, look in the mirror when you say that.

FACT: The healing from the new Surge is less than that of the old Surge. This is what we call a "nerf". Don't come back until you can refute that convincingly.

STEVIL

code65536 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.

Judging from your history of posts on this topic in which you blatantly ignore rebuttals and continue to repeat nonsensical arguments and demonstrate no indication that you actually play a sorc... all I can say is, look in the mirror when you say that.

FACT: The healing from the new Surge is less than that of the old Surge. This is what we call a "nerf". Don't come back until you can refute that convincingly.

Why do I have to refute that?

I have no reason to.

Is your argument based on "sorcs used to get more and sorcs can never have abilities reduced"?

If so, that's just incorrect.

The question is for balance purposes what SHOULD they have, not what they had.

That is why I kept asking for how much healing was wanted.
That's why I compared it to other existing tack-on-heal effects.
That's why I did not get obsessed with what it was over what it needs to be.

I did not and do not start with "sorcs survive with surge as only heal" or "surge gimme jabs level but at range and with aoe or dot or stun" as fundamental truths.

So, sorry, I don't see any reason to need to refute your nerfed designation.

I don't even necessarily disagree with it, as far as it goes (only addressing then vs now and some arbitrary total healing in generic circumstances)

Not sure why some seem more focused on what to call it than what it does now and should be.

STEVIL

code65536 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.

Judging from your history of posts on this topic in which you blatantly ignore rebuttals and continue to repeat nonsensical arguments and demonstrate no indication that you actually play a sorc... all I can say is, look in the mirror when you say that.

FACT: The healing from the new Surge is less than that of the old Surge. This is what we call a "nerf". Don't come back until you can refute that convincingly.

Now that that's done...
Ignore rebuttals? Think I am only ignoring actually one poster from this after he deliberately and with acknowledged intention went for personal insults. Otherwise, been responding frequently.

There is a difference between not accepting your premises and ignoring you.

A fundamental difference of opinion is whether jabs level healing justifies surge level healing and to what degree.

My contention is that since surge applies a heal-buff to other attacks including ranged attacks with stub or dot or aoe etc jabs isn't a valid benchmark.

Since there are a number of tack-heal-on-other-attacks-with-conditions already in game and that is really what surge does, I find that a more valid measure for what surge should do.

No indication I play a sorc... well I can't see that as valid at all. I have, tho you might not choose to accept it. I've referenced v16 and v14 mag sorcs I play multiple times.

You may choose to not believe me, that's your call, but it's UNTRUE to claim I never gave any indication to that effect.

Nor have you proven played a sorc is a necessary requirement btw.

Jar_Ek

@STEVIL Surge healing isn't infinite and certainly isn't on a par with jabs atm, but in many ways that is an aside.

The thing I think you fail to grasp is that most stamina sorcerers were okay with the live version , but were willing to give the new pts flat heal version a try and could see some potential. However the most recent pts changes have heavily impacted PvP viability on a class with no other survivability tools beyond major resolve/ward which all classes get - and is a pve nerf in the highest end content esp. as the hps cannot be increased by any changes to the character once the 1 crit a second margin has been achieved.

Also you mention rally, but 2H was way better with the live version of surge and does not synergise well with the new DoT based meta to proc the new pts surge - as the damage is mostly single big hits.

So the consensus is that the pts surge is a survivability nerf that will make sorcerers, especially stamina sorcerers, even less able to compete.

STEVIL

Derra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

It is just nuts that you can't even a knowledge parts that are positive without getting vitriolic drunk driver murder nonsense thrown back at you.

You don´t stand in front of a mob with torches and pitchforks and expect a rational discussion - or do you?

Also i did not speak of murder...

If you guys wsnt to class yourselves as mob with torches and pitchforks, go right ahead.
If you guys wsnt to exclude yourself from being included as capable of rational discussion, go right ahead.
I wont do so as i would consider that inappropriate.

I´ll quote myself to be a little clearer about my motivations:

Derra wrote: »

The problem is most people tried to give nonbiased insightful well structured information/feedback (edited in: tried to innitiate rational discussions) and it has fallen upon deaf ears (or blind eyes since we´re all reading if you wish). Or and that has happened shockingly often: Things got worse instead of better when ZOS began "fixing" things.

There is no reason to give detailed constructive criticism if it´s ignored anyway. Or when the person reading it can´t process the information because they´re working in a clean room environment of the game where they only apply theoretically sound solutions that don´t work in practice because they have no idea of what their product is like in practice.

I´ve posted long feedback on every update since 1.6 was on the pts and i´ve read countless posts and topics giving the same feedback as i did over the last year. It changed nothing.

As a result i don´t give a flying snusnu anymore and just post nonconstructive stuff whenever the urge strikes me. Bad product care gets you bad or disillusioned customers (oh well i admit i´m not paying anymore because why would i).

Hope that helps.

Yes it does.

Thanks

Roymachine

gamerguy757 wrote: »

yeah this is ridiculous. This is exactly why I changed my build up. Pre-DB, I was running a crit build on my sorc. But now, I rerolled and ran some more math and now my new build is dangerous. High recovery, close to 50k magicka, powerful shields that the 6s nerf is not even a big deal! I think that with this new nerf, people will shy away from the critical builds.

4x Elemental Succession (armor pieces)
2x Transmutation (1 ring, 1 armor)
2x Magnus (2 armor)
3x Willpower (1 ring, 1 necklace, Destructo/Resto staff)
Divines traits, Mage/Atronach mundus
Destruction Staff with Nirnhoned/Precise w/ a Shock Enchant
Restoration Staff with Infused w/ Disease Enchant

Bar 1:
Degeneration
Force Pulse
Crystal Frags
Velocious Curse
Hardened Ward
ENERGY OVERLOAD

Bar 2:
Streak
Daedric Minefield
Healing Ward
Combat Prayer
Dampen Magic
ENERGY OVERLOAD

Bar 3:
Streak
Radiant Magelight
Crystal Frags
Power Surge
Hardened Ward

Now you could run this is well:
5x Seducer (4 armor, 1 weapon)
1x Molag Kena (helm)
2x Transmutation (2 armor)
3x Willpower (3 jewelry)
But this run with mage.

I'm currently working with TwiceBorn with Mage/Atronach, but I can only get an 10k boost to max magic. Need to run more math

Hats off to you. Finally someone embracing the change and adjusting build to get more awesome. Bra-freaking-vo.

STEVIL

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@STEVIL Surge healing isn't infinite and certainly isn't on a par with jabs atm, but in many ways that is an aside.

The thing I think you fail to grasp is that most stamina sorcerers were okay with the live version , but were willing to give the new pts flat heal version a try and could see some potential. However the most recent pts changes have heavily impacted PvP viability on a class with no other survivability tools beyond major resolve/ward which all classes get - and is a pve nerf in the highest end content esp. as the hps cannot be increased by any changes to the character once the 1 crit a second margin has been achieved.

Also you mention rally, but 2H was way better with the live version of surge and does not synergise well with the new DoT based meta to proc the new pts surge - as the damage is mostly single big hits.

So the consensus is that the pts surge is a survivability nerf that will make sorcerers, especially stamina sorcerers, even less able to compete.

Not gonna go into pvp discussion here.

Ok, so, for pve content for stamina sorc only, if you take this one change in isolation to all the other changes your view is this ability change is a reduction to class survivability from what it was before any of these changes were made.

But, so, that doesnt mean the sum of changes is a survivability reduction. Stam sorcs added the bloodthirst dw flurry thing, adding a heal to useful attack that can also crit and proc surge which now crits off best crit chance.

Additional stamina morphs helps too in terms of raising the class.

Overall empowerment of weapons with bigger enchants and poisons seems more of a plus to stsmsorc which frankly seems to rely more heavily on weapon skills than class skills for damage.

So is it your belief or the consensus of the stam sorc union that the net sum of the current set of changes leaves stam sorcs overall worse than before, about the same or better by comparison?

My opinion is and analysis says a lot of the old meta are out the window and what some used to call easy mode, mag sorc shield spammers and purgers, are being addressed to new considerations... but stamsorcs, i have been watching them close and i am more excited than before. Not seeing them as less viable overall in the ne_ tamriel order.

Ymmv.

But i sure hope zos doesnt listen to enraged mob andndeletes the class.