*cough* balanced *cough*

maxjapank

Morbash wrote: »

RD should be dodgeable. Every other execute in the game can be dodged. Why is RD the exception?

Because it's a channel. It's not instant. That's why.

maxjapank

KenaPKK wrote: »

The community won't be satisfied with them reiterating why they think it's balanced, though. The opinions and impressions of the many many players is that the skill isn't balanced

Where is this community and where are these many, many players? I've yet to see that many outside of you.

KenaPKK

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

The community won't be satisfied with them reiterating why they think it's balanced, though. The opinions and impressions of the many many players is that the skill isn't balanced

Where is this community and where are these many, many players? I've yet to see that many outside of you.

Go back and read the threads. Quite a few people posted in agreement. Plus there are lots of complaints in game. I only started making these threads because so many people had complained around me in game, and they were making strong arguments.

RD wouldn't be such a laughingstock of a skill if it weren't hilariously overtuned. Just look at that video that was posted earlier today of the all beamplar raid group. That wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if there wasn't a strong "RD OP" undercurrent in general conversation lately. I am merely forcing it to light.

maxjapank

KenaPKK wrote: »

Go back and read the threads. Quite a few people posted in agreement. Plus there are lots of complaints in game. I only started making these threads because so many people had complained around me in game, and they were making strong arguments.

That's a good suggestion. Please go back and re-read your threads and count how few people have agreed with you. And I have yet to see much complaining about RD in zone chats, guild chats, and in the forums, and I pvp every day. That's all I do. And I have yet to see any strong arguments. Oh...I did see Joy showing how many times Blab said that RD needed to be undodgeable when it was bugged and that it was fine. Course he may have changed his mind since then. But you really misquoted and misundersood how hardly any Templar used the skill when it was bugged and dodgeable. Makes me wonder why you are saying things as facts when you've been proven wrong so many times.

imapogostick

I've got hit just as hard by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

maxjapank

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

imapogostick

maxjapank wrote: »

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

Because I was at about 90 percent health, I'm not complaining about it just stating, but 2 mins later I got hit by a 12k frag

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed some posts that were not contributing to this discussion. There is plenty to discuss without resorting to personal attacks.

Brrrofski

I couldn't care less if it doesn't scale up until 30% health. At 50% another dark flare will do far more damage, so I'll use another before a Radiant.

myrrrorb14_ESO

Brrrofski wrote: »

I couldn't care less if it doesn't scale up until 30% health. At 50% another dark flare will do far more damage, so I'll use another before a Radiant.

That dark flare is nasty. Surprised more people aren't complaining about that.

AfkNinja

KenaPKK wrote: »

RD wouldn't be such a laughingstock of a skill if it weren't hilariously overtuned. Just look at that video that was posted earlier today of the all beamplar raid group. That wouldn't be nearly as entertaining if there wasn't a strong "RD OP" undercurrent in general conversation lately. I am merely forcing it to light.

The one where the raid leader confirmed using any other skill would have been more effective and they only used radiant because it's funny?

Joy_Division

KenaPKK wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

This thread is already pushing as a bait discussion, however we are attempting to keep it open due to the more constructive arguments on the topic. Some of the comments here are punchy or off-topic. This is a reminder to keep this thread constructive and civil with responses.

It would help the conversation if ZOS could reiterate why RD functions the way it does. Maybe explain why this execute differs from other executes and how the combat team envisions DPS templars with how RD fits into that design intent.

I know that @ZOS_GinaBruno mentioned the team is OK with this DMG. But maybe they can chime in confirming that they indeed left a counter via gear/builds? The community already knows about the skill based counters.Just some thoughts!

I agree that this would be helpful simply because it would start a conversation about the skill.

The community won't be satisfied with them reiterating why they think it's balanced, though. The opinions and impressions of the many many players is that the skill isn't balanced for one reason or another, regardless of what ZOS says. Dev teams don't bestow balance on a skill with words. The balance of the skill is determined by play testing with player feedback, and regardless of what the templar forum zerg says, the mere fact that there is this much controversy over RD indicates that something is off and in need of adjustment. No other skill in the game creates this much frustration (that I've seen).

Why don't you stop speaking for "the community" seeing as how you make a habit of misrepresenting them.

KenaPKK wrote:

[Radiant Destruction] was competitive last patch before the latest buffs. Even templars were saying to just leave the class alone."

Leave the class alone, huh? 83 pages of templars saying fix the class from the last PTS.

RD was competitive last patch huh? "Balanced" as you keep telling us. Because, why is that?

KenaPKK wrote:

I trust Blab's opinion over yours. People were performing fine last patch, and he said magplar was perfectly balanced last patch and that the TG buffs were unnecessary

If you are going to keep touting Blab as the go to authority on Templar balance, at least get his position right. Last patch, when RD was bugged and dodgable, Blab made repeated pronouncements on the forums expressing this should not be the case and such mechanics undermined the ability

In October 2015, in a thread titled "My Take on Templars"

blabafat wrote: »

-Radiant destruction should not be dodgeable while being channeled

In December 2015, in thread titled "Templar Issues Thread"

blabafat wrote: »

Radiant Destruction is dodgeable

Again in Decemeber 2015, this time in a thread titled "Templar Tweek Suggestion"

blabafat wrote: »

Radiant destruction should not be dodgeable.

In another December 2015 thread titled "Flashes"

blabafat wrote: »

Radiant destruction is very weak now. They reduced the ticks on it, it goes through dodge roll, and it leaves you vulnerable(as it has and should of course).

On January 17, 2016, he wrote this in a thread titled "Templar"

blabafat wrote: »

-Radiant Destruction shouldn't be dodgeable

And as far as your claim tha he believed that templars were perfectly balanced and the TG buffs unnecessary, this is what he wrote on Feburary 3, 2016 upon reading those buffs:

blabafat wrote: »

Amazing

During the period in which RD was bugged and dodgeable, when you claimed it was ideally balanced, the person you keep citing as the authority on templars didn't agree with you. So does that make Blab, how did you put it, part of the "templar forum zerg"?

Or

Does it perhaps insinuate that the issue is not nearly as simple as you think it is and the community is far more fractured and split when it comes to RD (as it is with just about all contentious balance issues/abilities)?

You make thread after thread, posting misleading screenshots, intentionally exaggerate or flat out lie, put words in peoples mouths, anoint yourself the spokesperson of the ESO community, and accuse those who disagree with you of being biased zerg-baddies. You have not demonstrated anything is these threads that would lend me to believe you are willing, let alone capable, of objectively and honestly having an actual discussion about Radiant Destruction.

If you actually did value Blab's opinion as much as you claim, you would understand that there is no simple fix or mechanical change that will seek the balance you claim to want to have. It is a unique skill with unique mechanics, it's *not* just an execute or a instant-cast damage ability, even though you and RD's critics insist on comparing it to such skills. All it took was a bug that allowed just one single additional counter, dodge - the one that people who hate RD often clamor for - which then made RD, in blab's words, "very weak." I understand Blab now believe's RD is over-performing and would like to see some reform. But it's not as easy as snapping your fingers and nerfing it. If you stopped lecturing the "templar forum zerg," you might just find out that we actually have a brain, are halfway decent at the game, and would be amenable to some sort of reform that wasn't a blanket nerf.

danno8

KenaPKK wrote: »

..the mere fact that there is this much controversy over RD indicates that something is off and in need of adjustment. No other skill in the game creates this much frustration (that I've seen).

You could say the same thing about Shuffle, based on how many threads and complaining there is about that skill and how it works.

Are you ready then to concede that Shuffle also needs an adjustment based on your own criteria?

Skitttles

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down. You walk out a keep under seige and instantly have 3 beams on you. Youre trying to ERP and there's a jesus beam on you. You're turning in a quest at base and there's a jesus beam on you. Just shorten the range a bit so I can at least engage the templar. I am a stamina sorc to put my opinion into context.

NBrookus

.

Skitttles wrote: »

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down.

Standing behind a zerg and spamming anything is hard to counter. Snipe and Overload are two other back-of-the-zerg high damage ranged abilities that just won't work if you are up close and personal. Then there's Bombard and Destructive Reach, two other favorite middle-of-the-pack-spammables.

ANY ranged ability is a PITA when you can't get to the player.

myrrrorb14_ESO

NBrookus wrote: »

.

Skitttles wrote: »

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down.

Standing behind a zerg and spamming anything is hard to counter. Snipe and Overload are two other back-of-the-zerg high damage ranged abilities that just won't work if you are up close and personal. Then there's Bombard and Destructive Reach, two other favorite middle-of-the-pack-spammables.

ANY ranged ability is a PITA when you can't get to the player.

Sorry about the flying blade spam from the back of the zerg. But it was so funny. True words though. Anything spammed from the back sucks. Even heavy attacks.

staracino_ESO

I have been having a lot of fun zerg-surfing with my DK alt geared and spec'd for resto staff heavy attacks. It is only slightly weaker than Radiant.

Skitttles

NBrookus wrote: »

.

Skitttles wrote: »

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down.

Standing behind a zerg and spamming anything is hard to counter. Snipe and Overload are two other back-of-the-zerg high damage ranged abilities that just won't work if you are up close and personal. Then there's Bombard and Destructive Reach, two other favorite middle-of-the-pack-spammables.

ANY ranged ability is a PITA when you can't get to the player.

Very true, but at least I can dodge those. Getting hit with one snipe or overload I know there will be more to follow and can play accordingly. With radiant I don't even get that chance. My issue with Radiant is that the counter play to it is impractical or impossible.

Zheg

Skitttles wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

.

Skitttles wrote: »

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down.

Standing behind a zerg and spamming anything is hard to counter. Snipe and Overload are two other back-of-the-zerg high damage ranged abilities that just won't work if you are up close and personal. Then there's Bombard and Destructive Reach, two other favorite middle-of-the-pack-spammables.

ANY ranged ability is a PITA when you can't get to the player.

Very true, but at least I can dodge those. Getting hit with one snipe or overload I know there will be more to follow and can play accordingly. With radiant I don't even get that chance. My issue with Radiant is that the counter play to it is impractical or impossible.

You cannot purge/purify a frags, overload, snipe, bombard, or destructive reach, though you can dodge all of these. You can purge a jesus beam, or cloak it; it's not as universal a counter as dodge roll, but dodge roll as a main counter for something is not as easy available to a magicka build as it is a stam build, just as purge is not as easily available to a stam build. Sounds like there are adequate counter-balances happening, yes?

ZOS_DaryaK

We've once again removed a series of posts that were derailing this discussion.

DHale

I highly recommend blocking or line of sighting radiant destruction. Most ppl seem to run away which is not efficient nor effective. Also crushing shock and venom arrow, fossilize, take flight, defensive rune, agony, destructive reach, shield bash. Lot of tools for each class. As far as damage that's a zergbad heavy attack and that is instant... not over a several second channel.

Soris

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've once again removed a series of posts that were derailing this discussion.

Remove the skill instead. Give blinding back. It's a win-win

Joy_Division

Soris wrote: »

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've once again removed a series of posts that were derailing this discussion.

Remove the skill instead. Give blinding back. It's a win-win

You don't think these same melee-oriented builds won't come onto these forums and then complain they can't hit us templars using "noob flashes"?

Believe me, I'd *love* Blinding Flashes back - it was way better than RD

Skitttles

Zheg wrote: »

Skitttles wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

.

Skitttles wrote: »

I think alot of the issues with radiant could be resolved by just shortening the range. As of now its impossible to get away from. 1v1 it's fine, but this isn't a 1v1 game and 99% of the time you will be outnumbered. You say you can just bash it, but good luck getting to that templar behind his zerg all trying to kill you. A lot of people are frustrated with it because it's being used to cheese people down. These templars will just stand at the back and spam it while they're friends try to beat you down.

Standing behind a zerg and spamming anything is hard to counter. Snipe and Overload are two other back-of-the-zerg high damage ranged abilities that just won't work if you are up close and personal. Then there's Bombard and Destructive Reach, two other favorite middle-of-the-pack-spammables.

ANY ranged ability is a PITA when you can't get to the player.

Very true, but at least I can dodge those. Getting hit with one snipe or overload I know there will be more to follow and can play accordingly. With radiant I don't even get that chance. My issue with Radiant is that the counter play to it is impractical or impossible.

You cannot purge/purify a frags, overload, snipe, bombard, or destructive reach, though you can dodge all of these. You can purge a jesus beam, or cloak it; it's not as universal a counter as dodge roll, but dodge roll as a main counter for something is not as easy available to a magicka build as it is a stam build, just as purge is not as easily available to a stam build. Sounds like there are adequate counter-balances happening, yes?

Ok, I see what you are saying. Do you suggest I just run purge from now on? Maybe the issue here is not really RD but the way the players are using it to cheese everyone down.

Van_0S

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've once again removed a series of posts that were derailing this discussion.

Please, close this thread!

Its oblivious that every class must have some ability that as good damage.
Sorc= crystal frags.
NB= Grim focus.
DK= ? ( need to lvl up this class)
Jabs is a joke!
Almost all players know to counter jabs just dodgeroll right front of the caster.

Grao

maxjapank wrote: »

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

One important difference is that RD can't be dodged and isn't nearly as easy to see coming as crystal fragments, one of the slowest bullets in the game, which can be reflected, blocked, roll dodged...

maxjapank

Grao wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

One important difference is that RD can't be dodged and isn't nearly as easy to see coming as crystal fragments, one of the slowest bullets in the game, which can be reflected, blocked, roll dodged...

And crystal frags can't be interrupted, is instant, and allows the Sorc to remain mobile.

Grao

maxjapank wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

One important difference is that RD can't be dodged and isn't nearly as easy to see coming as crystal fragments, one of the slowest bullets in the game, which can be reflected, blocked, roll dodged...

And crystal frags can't be interrupted, is instant, and allows the Sorc to remain mobile.

Crystal Fragments can be interrupted unless it is a proc and if you are talking about the proc it is a chance of coming up when using abilities. Also, it only does that much damage as a Crit + Proc while RD always does that much damage and you can always do it as long as you can stand still for a few seconds.

I am not saying that Crystal Fragments isn't powerful, but that RD's range is longer than any charge skill and it can't be roll dodged is a little silly. But again, as I don't PvP a lot, I really don't mind. It just seems a little bit too powerful.

KenaPKK

Van_0S wrote: »

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've once again removed a series of posts that were derailing this discussion.

Please, close this thread!

Its oblivious that every class must have some ability that as good damage.
Sorc= crystal frags.
NB= Grim focus.
DK= ? ( need to lvl up this class)
Jabs is a joke!
Almost all players know to counter jabs just dodgeroll right front of the caster.

*shakes head*

maxjapank

Grao wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

imapogostick wrote: »

I've got hit harder by rd 20k plus and I just got hit by a 12k frag which is worse?

A 20k RD over 3 secs is about 7k dps. And the only time it will ever tick that much is when your under 20%...more like 10% health. So when you have only 5-10k health left, what does it matter? Both would kill you.

One important difference is that RD can't be dodged and isn't nearly as easy to see coming as crystal fragments, one of the slowest bullets in the game, which can be reflected, blocked, roll dodged...

And crystal frags can't be interrupted, is instant, and allows the Sorc to remain mobile.

Crystal Fragments can be interrupted unless it is a proc and if you are talking about the proc it is a chance of coming up when using abilities. Also, it only does that much damage as a Crit + Proc while RD always does that much damage and you can always do it as long as you can stand still for a few seconds.

I am not saying that Crystal Fragments isn't powerful, but that RD's range is longer than any charge skill and it can't be roll dodged is a little silly. But again, as I don't PvP a lot, I really don't mind. It just seems a little bit too powerful.

Play a Templar in pvp for a while and tell me what you think then.