Meaningful input discussion 2.4.2 Block cost reduction champion tree change.

Hutch679

Please post your thoughts regarding the change of block cost reduction moving to the thief champion tree. I for one, think this is absolutely ridiculous and have no idea why this would ever happen....

Seriously... Put block cost reduction back in the warrior tree...

Divinius

Look at it this way...

In 15 years or so when all 3600 CP have been unlocked, it won't matter anymore, right?

code65536

@Wrobel Please revert this change.

Nobody asked for it. Nobody wants it.

Tanking in this game is a resource-management game. We have lower resource pools to start with because we need health and we need to split between magicka and stamina. We don't have the kind of gear cost reduction that DDs and healers have.

Take, for example, one of the many large pulls in vICP. There are several important targets that I need to taunt. Some ranged enemies that I need to pull in. And then lock into place with talons. And then I throw in Deep Breaths here and there to interrupt the Harvester's special attack and/or the Invoker's shielding ability.

These are all things that I, as a good tank, should be doing. And doing all of these things quickly depletes my magicka pool. You want me to sacrifice my magicka regen and cost reduction CP stars so that I could maintain my current block costs?! Tanks aren't about just soaking up damage--that's what a bad tank does. A good tank needs to provide utility, and this change would seriously hamper that.

Teridaxus

*facedesk*

Jesh

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
Regarding swapping the Champion Trees for block reduction, is this intended to allow tanks to use 2 different CP resource pools to stack in Crit Resistance and Blocking Cost? And this way the Tank chooses instead of reducing the Stam cost of abilities to reduce the Stam cost of blocking?
That could be interesting, and I can see some logic (maybe, just maybe), but I have no idea how it might work out. I do imagine that Magika Tanks may be put out by this though.
I will try to test this with template characters on both mag and stam builds this week. I am worried for Magika Tanks though...

Jade1986

I called it. ZoS is determined to nerf blocking consistantly.

Smolt

This change was a bad idea. We understand that you guys don't really play this game, so please listen to feedback from those that do and revert this change. And thank you for your continued effort to improve the game but this change cannot go live.

Teridaxus

Situation of block and heavy armour:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mAUY1J8KizU

jrgray93

Having been theorycrafting for a tank I'm in the process of leveling, I have to say it looks like they need champion points in way too many areas. There is simply too much useful mitigation spread around in Warrior and absolutely necessary resource management stuff in Thief. Mage is practically useless.

For this reason, I do not understand the change. It looks like it just shafts resource management for the sake of better mitigation. This is bad. Maybe more useful stuff needs thrown into mage points. I'm not even sure I want to continue my tank after reading this change.

Xsorus

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

Lucius_Aelius

Agreed that this is an extremely disturbing change that will likely destroy the viability of my current and future builds, as all my Builds are going to be Heavy Armor wearing Tank Hybrids, who will always need to block effectively and also need resource management, and without the bonuses from Champion Points (not to mention the loss of Bracing) my Builds are going to be hit hard by this, and they're already barely viable as is. It's the only way I like to play and if they destroy these carefully crafted Builds I've made so pointlessly then I'm done with this game, even if I could adapt I don't see why I should bother when I'd probably just get undercut again at some point down the line.

Very disappointed with these changes, I had been cautiously optimistic about this game's future, using Heavy Armor only because I was banking on it being buffed and made worthwhile down the line, which I thought was finally happening in this update until these specific changes started rolling out, and now that I see what changes they're making I'm extremely disheartened and disturbed that a game I enjoy so much is about to be so much less fun to play.

Lucius_Aelius

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

Cinbri

Don't see a difference now and then...
Since i from Azura

Armitas

I think making sturdy valuable is great idea. However the amount of work and reshuffling that seems to be required to squeeze bracing into that slot is a little too enormous to bare. Perhaps something else would be better to make sturdy valuable.

Xsorus

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

Mojmir

Increase the cp cap

GoodOlPinkly

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

Ok let's see where heavy armor started before PTS with bracing
20% block reduction


Just to get that back you need to give up resource management either way, by taking CP out of mag reduction, and mag regen to put them into block reduction.... Or re craft all armor in sturdy and give up (PVE Divines which usually takes away mag regen) or (PVP Impen which forces you to put more into Impen anyways not because you choose to, and that being said will still net you a loss in crit resist).


Zos did all this so you can have 200 more spell/ wep damage.

Personofsecrets

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn

This is an absolute disaster.

The thief is the best place for tanks to benefit their resources - it is already stressed. If you totally have to move block cost reduction, then put it in the mage where tanks get next to nothing.

I have to think that someone thought this change out, but it is so the opposite of what anyone would want that I can't accept that provocative thought is behind this change.

Giant tanking nerf.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

This change is a bottle necking of resource management.

Personofsecrets

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

Do you understand why it was done?

NewBlacksmurf

I think ppl are beginning to see parts of why CP needs to stay as Cp and not a VR to CP conversion.
This is a great example of how things are getting spread so when you gain CP, ppl might further in efficiency o power but fall back in the tree which is going to make us all become very limited and drastically specific when trying to play a role in group content.

Teridaxus

Mojmir wrote: »

Increase the cp cap

No, its that *** cp system and its insane powercreep which bought us into the situation. Yes, we more experience people will struggle for a while and adapt like after every nerf, but i have no idea how new people are supposed to keep up with this madness.

Those hourly queues in the dung finder shows perfectly how messed up the trininty is in the game.

MrTarkanian48

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

Resistant is wasted CP in PVE. Spell Shield is a joke. 100 CP in Spell shield provides 5280 spell resist, or 8% mitigation. You get the equivalent with 20 CP in Elemental Defender. And tanks do not have a problem hitting the resistance cap in spell resist.

Meanwhile mag sustain is very important for a PVE dk tank where you need to maintain stamina and block for extended periods of time.

No one was asking for this change, not even PVPers. If your PVPing, and investing in Block Cost reduction, which few people do, you don't take crit damage while blocking anyway.

Lucius_Aelius

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

@Xsorus

Except the Resource Management Champion Points in Thief are some of the most essential in the entire Champion Point system for the vast majority of Builds, and now any of those Builds which also want Block Cost reduction can't have it without needing to resort to Sturdy traits on their armor, which is ridiculous. The Steed was always a go-to tree for Tanks because of the Shield Armor increase, and there's not much there besides Block Cost reduction that is actually useful for Tanking.

So now in order for Tanks to get the armor bonus we need to invest in Champion Points that aren't nearly as useful, and to get Block Cost Reduction we need to sacrifice Resource Management which, while wearing Heavy Armor, we are already sorely lacking. And while this doesn't just affect Tanks that's the main problem, since Tanks are already sorely underplayed and undervalued. We need more people playing Tanks (and being good Tanks), and this change is a huge blow to that, discouraging people from playing Tanks even more than before (and making it harder on those who still try).

And this especially hurts Hybrid Tanks, which most Tanks are because so much of the game is unplayable without some ability to kill things. I need that resource management and block cost reduction to remain viable, and with the removal of Bracing this is a double-whammy against Tanks at a time when we are sorely in need of a buff.

If you really like this change then good for you, but all the Damage Dealers that already have to wait all day in the Queue for a single Dungeon might disagree, especially if this goes live and suddenly they can't find a Dungeon group at all without forming one in Zone Chat or with guildies. Basically, if this change goes live then Group Finder will be useless for anyone who isn't a Tank or a Healer, and that in and of itself is enough reason not to do this, quite apart from all the countless Tank Builds like mine which won't be viable anymore and the players like me who will walk away from this game as a result.

I only like playing Hybrid Tanks, I've tried other things but it's just not fun to play, and if they ruin these builds there's no reason to stay. ZOS already have made clear how little they care for Hybrids and Tanks, and with this change they're only making it clearer, and at a time when I thought ZOS was finally warming up to us and making changes that were actually helpful... If this goes live, so much for that.

So no, the harm far outweighs the good here, and you liking this change is nothing compared to all the people raging about it right now, especially if all the agrees my posts have been getting are any indication.

Xsorus

GoodOlPinkly wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

Ok let's see where heavy armor started before PTS with bracing
20% block reduction


Just to get that back you need to give up resource management either way, by taking CP out of mag reduction, and mag regen to put them into block reduction.... Or re craft all armor in sturdy and give up (PVE Divines which usually takes away mag regen) or (PVP Impen which forces you to put more into Impen anyways not because you choose to, and that being said will still net you a loss in crit resist).


Zos did all this so you can have 200 more spell/ wep damage.

If you completely ignore the fact they also gave you a crap ton more Magicka/Stamina recovery when wearing heavy armor...Which more then makes up for anything you would get from PVE Divines, More Health and More Healing Received.

To go a long with that 200 more Spellpower/weapon damage.

You can get 35% cost reduction from armor now, and you gained an extra 6% cost reduction from 1hd/shield as well.

So not only do you get all those things I listed, you're probably (based on how the Cost reduction works for armor) gained about 10% more cost reduction then Live.

Lucius_Aelius

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Finn

This is an absolute disaster.

The thief is the best place for tanks to benefit their resources - it is already stressed. If you totally have to move block cost reduction, then put it in the mage where tanks get next to nothing.

I have to think that someone thought this change out, but it is so the opposite of what anyone would want that I can't accept that provocative thought is behind this change.

Giant tanking nerf.

They shouldn't move it at all, I need the Mage to buff my Offense (and my Templar needs it for both Offense and Healing), my Hybrid Tanks can already barely kill anyone, and if I have to sacrifice any more DPS for Tankiness then I won't be able to kill anything or anyone effectively enough. Just leave it where it is in the Steed, it's always been fine there and would continue to be fine there.

GoodOlPinkly

Xsorus wrote: »

GoodOlPinkly wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Its actually not a bad change if you understand why it was done.

The why's are irrelevant, the resulting negative consequences upon the game far outweigh any possible good this might achieve, and you can't call any change good without accounting for each and every consequence.

I can if i know why it was done and why its a buff

Red is an extremely good line..with a lot of things you have to split between.

Hardy/Thickened Skin/Elemental/Block Cost Reduction/Resistant are all top tier...and you have some other decent ones as well that no one has points to put in.

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Over in the Green Tree I basically had Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Stamina Recovery/Dodge Roll Cost reduction (and Break Free)....heavy armor generally has *** for stamina recovery..So putting points in that was always a filler to me...So I generally max put a lot in Stamina Cost reduction and bash cost reduction...Now i'll be able to do Stamina Cost Reduction/Bash Cost Reduction/Block Cost Reduction.

In other words...My defense is going to go up because of this change.

Ok let's see where heavy armor started before PTS with bracing
20% block reduction


Just to get that back you need to give up resource management either way, by taking CP out of mag reduction, and mag regen to put them into block reduction.... Or re craft all armor in sturdy and give up (PVE Divines which usually takes away mag regen) or (PVP Impen which forces you to put more into Impen anyways not because you choose to, and that being said will still net you a loss in crit resist).


Zos did all this so you can have 200 more spell/ wep damage.

If you completely ignore the fact they also gave you a crap ton more Magicka/Stamina recovery when wearing heavy armor...Which more then makes up for anything you would get from PVE Divines, More Health and More Healing Received.

To go a long with that 200 more Spellpower/weapon damage.

You can get 35% cost reduction from armor now, and you gained an extra 6% cost reduction from 1hd/shield as well.

So not only do you get all those things I listed, you're probably (based on how the Cost reduction works for armor) gained about 10% more cost reduction then Live.

Your not thinking about the fact that the regen from the armor does not factor in with your actual regen stat which in turn makes CP regen % base weaker, also Divines was an example. You loose reinforced, infused, nirnhoned, but for me the biggest is Impen, (This change alone less Impen makes you less tanky in pvp) really less tanky in heavy armor.

Sharee

For all practical purposes, this change effectively removed block cost reduction as a champion passive, since the opportunity cost just became too high (losing essential resource management passives).

Needless to say, i am not happy about the change.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Xsorus wrote: »

They basically took Block Cost reduction out of that line..Freeing all those points you had to drop in it...To be put in either Spell Resist or Resistant for the Shield Passive and you can move any remaining point over to the other really good CP passives. For Example..I have 50 in Block Cost Reduction and 50 in Crit damage Reduction on my DK, I'm now able to put 75 in Crit Reduction and move the remaining points over to the other good passives.

Interesting take.

code65536

Furthermore, I want to add that I like having gear-swappable roles. I like being able to switch between DPS and tanking on a character by just changing gear, food, and mundus stone, without paying thousands for a respec each time.

Having block cost reduction in the red tree was perfect, because it's in a place that does not conflict with other roles and allows my much more versatility in my play style.

Also, for people who say that this change frees up red points for further damage mitigation, that really does not interest us. In PvE tanking, we get more than enough mitigation under the current setup, and resources are the main bottleneck for us. We don't need more mitigation--we need better resources.

What the change does is encourage people to switch to medium armor for tanking. We lost bracing in Heavy Armor (instead of putting some extra mitigation into sword-and-board, why not add it to Wrath?) so there's no block cost advantage for HA. And with the abundance of red points to spend now, you can reach sufficient mitigation with MA. And MA would help with resources to help offset our lost green points.

@Wrobel I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is not your intent to mess the system up so badly that medium armor actually becomes the ideal tank armor--but with the way things are now, that's going to be the new reality. Please fix this. Revert the change and put the blocking CP back in the red tree where it belongs. Move the extra block cost reduction from Fortress into Wrath (you can have more than one effect per passive, right?). Do those two things and we'll applaud you.

NBrookus

Xsorus wrote: »

If you completely ignore the fact they also gave you a crap ton more Magicka/Stamina recovery when wearing heavy armor...Which more then makes up for anything you would get from PVE Divines, More Health and More Healing Received.

To go a long with that 200 more Spellpower/weapon damage.

You can get 35% cost reduction from armor now, and you gained an extra 6% cost reduction from 1hd/shield as well.

So not only do you get all those things I listed, you're probably (based on how the Cost reduction works for armor) gained about 10% more cost reduction then Live.

That extra recovery only applies in PvE content where you didn't really need tanks anyway. @Wrobel said they planned to tune it to getting hit every second, but in reality in content like MoL you are getting hit a lot more than once per second.