if you didnt know why ZOS is nerfing COA, WGT and ICP

Bossdonut

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

You guys who call yourself Elites should try PvP, its insane challenging.

PvP. You mean pvdoor at 4 am when the other 2 factions are asleep? Hardcore man. More challenging than demon souls imo.

PainfulFAFA

play how u want no?
I want to play thru the content fast, not spend 3 hours on something that can be done in 30 mins, 10 if u skip trash. The rng is ludicrous. 80+runs for spc alone. 100+ for kena divine/impen.

LadyNalcarya

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

play how u want no?

I made a character, and in my head he's the only rightful emperor of Cyrodill. Why cant I have emp bonuses from lvl 1, evil Zos wont let me play how I want! Fix this or Ill unsub!

Bossdonut

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

play how u want no?

I made a character, and in my head he's the only rightful emperor of Cyrodill. Why cant I have emp bonuses from lvl 1, evil Zos wont let me play how I want! Fix this or Ill unsub!

If you read the story you'd know your homie already tried that and got rekt. So maybe it's not the best idea.

LadyNalcarya

Bossdonut wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

play how u want no?

I made a character, and in my head he's the only rightful emperor of Cyrodill. Why cant I have emp bonuses from lvl 1, evil Zos wont let me play how I want! Fix this or Ill unsub!

If you read the story you'd know your homie already tried that and got rekt. So maybe it's not the best idea.

Well, he's also a Dovakhiin and Sheogorath so lolnope.

P.S. Also he's supposed to have a Mehrunes' Razor so I demand it for pvp.
Otherwise I cant play as I want.

Lamthalas

NativeJoe wrote: »

Reasons they nerf dungeons....

1. After the elites have their stuff and stop running it... who is then doing the dungeon at this difficulty level. Very few.
2. They need to sell DLC's, and if your not good enough to beat VCOA, why on earth would you buy a DLC that has even harder dungeons in it?
3. The gear may not be relevant for much longer.
4. Rage over lag, connections speeds, low spec computers is abundant...fact is that alot of players are playing this entire game on hardmode, a difficult dungeon may in fact be rendered impossible for people in places around the world.
5. it may not be actually "EASIER"... your character has probably grown, you've gained multiple sets, have money to purchase legendary level equipment/enchants, great potions and food, and have undoubtedly gained CP...plus if you've done VMA, almost everything seems Way easier after this because you've learned how to dodge roll, block, cast mitigation techniques and may even just feel alot more confident in yourself and thus arn't hugging the healer and panicing at every little mechanic.

Isn't that is why they created vet and non-vet version of each dungeons? So those that prefer challenge could enjoy the harder version of the dungeons? If they are just nerfing them just because of few people who couldn't finish the dungeon in vet mode, then why even have them in vet mode.

potirondb16_ESO

Lol, I will try to stay within the limit of reason on this one. To be honnest, @Waseem, I do like your perspective and how deeply you feel about the bring player together part of the speech. But it also do have limitation. Let me give you an exemple rq : when I started ICP and WGT, I ask friend around, develop a network of player who might be good enough to run it and start running daily with a couple of friend to beat down the mecanics. We were not the best, I didn't knew them from way back but it was our community of WGT and ICP traveller.

I mean if that is not bringing people together what is ! Nowaday I almost accept any kind of group to go down in WGT and I never even take time to talk to them because well we have a dongeon to complete. So basicly nowaday people running WGT are no longer becoming friend they are just ''pug'' (for as much as I hate this expression).

So you have to be cautious about this dongeon, ICP and WGT can both be done in normal mode and player will still receive decent drop. So if a group of player who don't have yet develop the skill or the gear for the veteran mode, want to get a team together and improve their gameplay by doing something hard that's where they should look first. Not in vWGT or vICP, but you can also thrust me if those guys found of group of player just like them who are ready to work hard, they'll have the best of fun.

So yeah, DLC exclusive stuff is pretty annoying, but kind of necessairy because no compagnie can run on the base game forever. So I guess that makes it ok. But lowering the amount of occasion people get to play together and face a real challenge, that's to me criminal in an MMO.

Vangy

Well OP some of the things you may want to note; I'm not elitist but I tend to play only with guild mates /irl friends. They could turn vICP into spindle for all it matters and Im still going to play with the people on my friends list who pull 25k+ DPS lol. Pugging is just cumbersome.

khele23eb17_ESO

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Destyran wrote: »

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

You guys who call yourself Elites should try PvP, its insane challenging.

I am not elite i am Australian i can never be good enough to play with the real elites because of my ping rate gives me slightly less dps than them. Same in pvp i go ok in pvp but the constant disconnects and lag and inability to bar swap makes it almost no fun when some one gan dodge roll and hit me with two bow abilitys a 2H ability and two class abilitys ill just stay in pve where at least i can pretend im good

The real elites are people who wont let you play with them unless you run exactly what they want and how they want it you have to be capped you have to know your rotation and have a good bloodspawn time. They are the real elites in this game. But they are very rare alot of people have heard their names but havent played with them. And the achievement linking thing on pc sounds like bad players looking for people to carry them through its not elitism every body just need to teach people what to do and to be honest not many people like to hear that spamming a hardcast frag isnt good and dont take rotation input and rage quit.

Well, PvP is challenging in my opinion.
I hope they bring arena soon(...)

Now this will cause an everlasting sh*tstorm over balance issues on the forums.

Seri

NativeJoe wrote: »

1. After the elites have their stuff and stop running it... who is then doing the dungeon at this difficulty level. Very few.

And is that a problem? It leaves the Vet modes as a challenge for remaining players. I thought that was the reason for ZOS introducing the non-vet mode to begin with.

NativeJoe wrote: »

4. Rage over lag, connections speeds, low spec computers is abundant...fact is that alot of players are playing this entire game on hardmode, a difficult dungeon may in fact be rendered impossible for people in places around the world.

Maybe. Based on my experience in vMA, I'd agree on some of the twitch-reaction needed there but I'm also playing from Oceanic area and have no complaint about all the other content.

NativeJoe wrote: »

5. it may not be actually "EASIER"...

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Regarding White Gold Tower, Imperial City Prison and Veteran City of Ash: We have adjusted their balance down a bit.

^^ pretty sure that is actually making it easier. If it was perceived due to gear progression then just leave them at current difficulty and wait for gear to catch up.

Merlight wrote: »

[...] react to combat events, and instead stand in stupid, hoping whoever is the tank healer will carry them through

From what I've seen running with friends vs running in PUG / Group Finder is exactly this (excluding the few DPS checks around) - people that either don't understand the mechanics or have problems learning / understanding the mechanics.

An example of this is VWGT Planar boss - with the pinion currently not applying a DoT this dungeon is a huge amount easier but conversely I'm surprised at the number of people who didn't know you could dodgeroll the projectile from the pinion and so avoid the DoT actually applying. Similarly, Kena's lightning wall can be dodgerolled through and I'm pretty sure the dual-walls move at different speeds so if you can stay up with the quicker one you don't go through the slower one as often.

code65536

But, um, there're normal versions of WGT and ICP that are catered specifically for the "casual" players. In fact, you can even do the "vet" WGT/ICP pledges in nWGT/nICP (and get a silver key).

As I've said in another thread, if they want to further nerf nWGT/nICP, then go right on ahead. But there's no reason to touch vWGT/vICP because the whole reason we have the normal version (which is the exact same dungeon, with the exact same enemies and exact same quest story) is so that a broader audience could enjoy that content and so that we could protect the vet version from the nerfhammer.

Talyena

How about a solution to make everyone happy? Tone down the vet versions, but add a trigger at the beginning that bumps the difficulty back to where it is now but increases the drop rate. Those who can't do it now have a better chance at completion and their gold key, and those who can have a better drop rate. Everyone wins.

GnGEmpire

How do you know that these dungeons are going to get nerfed? Did ZOS mention anything?

Lamthalas

Talyena wrote: »

How about a solution to make everyone happy? Tone down the vet versions, but add a trigger at the beginning that bumps the difficulty back to where it is now but increases the drop rate. Those who can't do it now have a better chance at completion and their gold key, and those who can have a better drop rate. Everyone wins.

They already did. Just click on non-vet for easy mode, vet for hard mode.

Vangy

Lamthalas wrote: »

Talyena wrote: »

How about a solution to make everyone happy? Tone down the vet versions, but add a trigger at the beginning that bumps the difficulty back to where it is now but increases the drop rate. Those who can't do it now have a better chance at completion and their gold key, and those who can have a better drop rate. Everyone wins.

They already did. Just click on non-vet for easy mode, vet for hard mode.

Vet mode drops v16 and normal drops v15 yes? It isnt just about drop rates but gear level now I think. Really no point in getting a v15 kena helm -_-"

Lamthalas

Vangy wrote: »

Lamthalas wrote: »

Talyena wrote: »

How about a solution to make everyone happy? Tone down the vet versions, but add a trigger at the beginning that bumps the difficulty back to where it is now but increases the drop rate. Those who can't do it now have a better chance at completion and their gold key, and those who can have a better drop rate. Everyone wins.

They already did. Just click on non-vet for easy mode, vet for hard mode.

Vet mode drops v16 and normal drops v15 yes? It isnt just about drop rates but gear level now I think. Really no point in getting a v15 kena helm -_-"

Then maybe they should make normal mode drops v16 purple and veteran mode drops v16 yellow instead of nerfing the vet mode.

Talyena

Lamthalas wrote: »

Talyena wrote: »

How about a solution to make everyone happy? Tone down the vet versions, but add a trigger at the beginning that bumps the difficulty back to where it is now but increases the drop rate. Those who can't do it now have a better chance at completion and their gold key, and those who can have a better drop rate. Everyone wins.

They already did. Just click on non-vet for easy mode, vet for hard mode.

But I'm suggesting a third option. They seem set on reducing the difficulty. It's going to happen. People have been asking for an increased drop rate. Why not add a third level of difficulty with an increased drop rate? The third level would be the same as it is now so those who currently run those dungeons can still do it the same as they do now but have a better chance for drops.

Yo_Langland

I hope it doesn't come off as elitist when I give PUGs a chance and explain as much as I can about the fights but then when it becomes evident we won't be able to finish that I suggest the ones not up to the necessary strength check out tamriel foundry so they can sure up their toon so they can be successful next time. You can only bare with a tank who doesn't know what taunting is for so long. I think bringing these 3 dungeons down a bit to be on the same level as the others is a good idea and bring the whole player base up a peg hopefully

Function

These dungeons are easy already, no need to nerf them and make them incredibly boring.

kojou

I've run vWGT so many times now I couldn't possibly count. I've tanked, healed, and DPS'ed it. Got no-death runs and everything. Mostly tanked because tanks are so few and far between, but that is another story... I hope they leave vWGT alone as I think the difficulty is about right for it. Its hard, but once you get the mechanics it is a fun dungeon to run.

I absolutely hate running vICP though. They can do whatever they want with it... I might try for Scathing mage if they make it a little quicker to run, but after my experience with how many runs it took to get Spell Power Cure I am a little sour on the gear grind.

COA is one of those dungeons that you also need a good group to complete and is actually fun. I just usually don't run it because it takes so long and the loot is still v14. They can nerf it all they want and I still probably won't run it unless they scale the gear to v16.

Magdalina

Waseem wrote: »

Destyran wrote: »

You can already 3dps and 1 tank them man they are easy enough. If anything they meed to leave it and make gear drops more common because i feel of they merf it the gear will become a crazy grinds

they are easy enough for you and me, but what about the others?
have you tried to do them with random people for pledges in Deshaan?
you could join a group who cant kill first boss.. or if so... stay for 2 hours before finishing 2nd boss.
everyone no matter grouped with who shall be able to finish all the dungeons. the difference should be the time only. 20 mins or 2 hours.. players we dont know will feel better if they finish vICP after 2 hours instead disbanding group after their heavy effort.
and remember, it'll still not a walk in the park...

Everyone? Should a group of 4 v16s in heavy armor with all points into stamina spamming magicka damage skills and having 12k health be able to do that too?

Personally I disagree with the OP. The problem is with people here, not with dungeons. Thing is, if Zeni keeps going down that route they'll have to keep nerfing stuff endlessly. There will ALWAYS be someone who can't do something. They've already nerfed vWGT and vICP TWICE. CoA is also but a shadow of the former glory - I remember the days when Valkyn's heavy 1shot anyone short of a good tank, block or not. Now it barely bulges my health in 7/7 light armor if I block it. They can nerf it again but there STILL will be people who won't be able to do it until they nerf it to the condition of Wayrest Sewers and beyond(I'm sure there still are people struggling with the Sewers as well). So basically they should either nerf everything to soloable-with-no-armor-and-spamming-light-attacks-by-anyone point so that literally everyone can do it exactly in the way they like(unless they actually like some challenge) and still feel effective...or they should come to terms with the idea that playing the way people like can be ineffective sometimes and perhaps it's time to educate people on that.

Why is their only solution ever to nerf everything? Why not try to tackle things in another way for once? There're so many things they could do that us, players, would be willing to help them with. Make guides. Feature articles similar to the old build ones you did, except of people's dungeon completion strategies. Start official threads about bosses' mechanics if it's that hard. Contrary to the popular belief, there's plenty of experienced players who don't mind and even enjoy helping new players. I've been pugging dungeons a lot lately and let me tell you...in my dungeon running history I've had a few very nasty run-ins with some people you could call "elitists" and a LOT more of nastiness from the "casual" crowd. I'll never bail on a group in a dungeon unless they're being total jerks(or I actually have to run in RL), Idc how good you are if you're capable of listening and want to learn. You see a thread like this with all the people saying they want to learn it but are afraid of being looked down upon and you think poor people, those elitist folks must really be mistreating them(and this is not a jab at anyone personally here. I am ready to believe you are a nice lot and you do want to learn, you've just had some bad luck with the more experienced players. I am sorry to hear that, really. But...believe me when I say bad luck with less experienced players is also extremely frequent)...but you'd be amazed at just how often people simply do NOT want to learn. They refuse to listen to any instructions, ignore constructive advice, don't even bother answering in groupchat and then get very surprised and blame you when they die after standing in red for 30 seconds solid.

The probem with the current approach is it offers no progression. I used to be a quest lover myself, much more interested in finding every single skyshard in the game according to its hint in the achievement tab and not the addon. Then I have completed just about every single quest and found every skyshard and started wondering what to do next. I've met some really awesome people who taught me about dungeons. I have no doubts I sucked at first but I got better, along with some friends I made. We mastered the previously hard dungeons to the point when they seemed easy. We did speedruns, no death and HMs. We became better players for learning our roles and classes better, gained more situational awareness etc. My first CoH run took over 4 hours, back then shortly after it came out. I shudder to think of it now but yes we wiped on Nerien'eth endlessly. We had issues dodging skulls - we didn't see them coming. We had low dps and had issues burning him when he grabbed someone. We got spread out too far and out of healer's range. Couldn't avoid his aoes for the life of us. (yes we sucked lol) We improved. Finally getting that no death CoH felt so great back then - doing something special and extremely hard and unlocking a great dye.
Now we're capable of more challenging content. But...there is none for small size groups. Thing is if you're a more casual player with little experience in dungeons, you have room to improve. It can be fun. It will make you a better player. But once you improve there's no going back. You can't un-improve, I mean we already 2 man those dungeons and it's still too easy for us. Basically it means then there's nothing to do in this game but to finish the solo questing, try to learn your character and if you actually do, guess leave because there's no challenge for players who have actually done that(not counting new Trial atm), nothing to strive for.

Forgive me for my wall of text, I am just extremely frustrated right now I think this decision is a mistake. It's another step down the wrong road that's going to kill the game for anything but pure solo questing in the end.

hamgatan

Destyran wrote: »

I am not elite i am Australian i can never be good enough to play with the real elites because of my ping rate gives me slightly less dps than them. Same in pvp i go ok in pvp but the constant disconnects and lag and inability to bar swap makes it almost no fun when some one gan dodge roll and hit me with two bow abilitys a 2H ability and two class abilitys ill just stay in pve where at least i can pretend im good

<<-- THIS EXACTLY!

We are at a serious disadvantage vs North American players. And the problem is, it will never go away. Its a technology constraint. Subsea Cable limitation + Distance means we will never ping under 200. Thats the reality.. Pretty much every subsea fiber link crossing the Pacific has around a 200-250 ping from where it leaves the US on its first hop to either Guam or Auckland.

The average North American player with Fiber connections are pinging around 50-60. The average xDSL Australian is pinging around 300. Thats nearly a quarter of a second delay (which incidentally is the average human reaction time to a visual stimulus). That is almost crucial for a game like this. That's providing conditions are ideal. If you begin to compensate for peak Cyrodiil lag then that can stretch out to 0.5 seconds easily in difference! The difference between a shield being popped..and dead.

Even at work on 100mb Fiber I still ping at 280. I hear you on that PvP lag. I like PvP.. been spending a lot of time doing it lately even though its a broken skill, lag filled zerg fest.. its still (somewhat) enjoyable.

For those crying about it - I've tanked each of those dungeons maybe slightly under 50 times each (vICP half that). It only appears to get easier for 'elites' because they have the experience running them to know the mechanics. Keep in mind we had to learn those mechanics too at some stage as well.. This is time vested, lessons learned and improvement. I'm not for nerfing them because if i had to struggle getting there with *** ping rates.. why can't everyone else? Shouldn't have to make things easier for the 'I want it now Generation'.. Put in the time and effort like we did. Is that elitist? No.. it's just achievements should be earned.. not handed out over a dummy spit.

Itoq

When I PVE I pretty much only PUG. I have done WGT, ICP, and COA many times - mostly as tank or healer.

While it is true that learning the mechanics is important, I find it more important to have high dps than any other factor for a successful run.

• Killing everything quicker keeps everyone sharp and attentive rather than lulled into a grind numbness.
  
• Killing bosses quicker means less time to for each player to make mistakes in their rotations, anticipations and reactions.
  
• If mistakes are made those mistakes have less impact in shorter fights.
  
• Fast boss burns limit the duration or number of challenging mechanics

For the all around goodness of the game and the players ZOS would be best served by lessening the gap between good and merely adequate dps. Mechanics, gear, CP and skills should be structured in a way that there is a lot less difference between elite, high, casual and bad dps.


* Also, I agree COA is too long. Get rid of both of the two trash/mini bosses on the opposing hills right before the last boss and COA would be at just about the right run time.

* * FU random loot drop. I got three SPC pieces on my first four WGT runs. Since that time I have run WGT way more times than I can count and I haven't picked up another SPC piece. This loot system is not the best way to motivate any player, especially casuals, to learn and run these dungeons.

This reward system also is a disincentive for experienced players to run the more difficult dungeons with less experienced players. Instead it is all about fast runs over and over.

PhatGrimReaper

Just a thought...... practice, grind gear, get better, then beat the un-nerfed content and feel good about yourself.

Where is the challenge if all of the content gets continually nerfed?

I want a sharpened maelstrom destro..... I need to beat vMA multiple times to get it..... I don't enjoy Maelstrom, so I don't do it.... should I get my staff?.... NO!!

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I hate PvE so I have no hat is the ring but come on when you need to run a dungeon ten time to learn what happens is BS. If you can't have a good run without encyclopedic knowledge of the mechanics it's poor design.

Not to mention the fact that you have to deal with the RNG for your reward having to google search dungeon walk throughout only to get a cheap reward that you don't want is not a winning recipe.

Shunravi

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

. If you can't have a good run without encyclopedic knowledge of the mechanics it's poor design.

Wait you need encyclopedic knowledge of how it works for a good run? I should apologise to my team....







And yea, the rng is terribad.

PhatGrimReaper

What really disappoints me is that 99% of the mechanics in this game can be bypassed with decent DPS already....

PLEASE NERF THE NERFHAMMER!!!!

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Shunravi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

. If you can't have a good run without encyclopedic knowledge of the mechanics it's poor design.

Wait you need encyclopedic knowledge of how it works for a good run? I should apologise to my team....







And yea, the rng is terribad.

Not knowing that you have to stack on this, of kill the boss before he starts hulk smashing the ground and don't stop, roll dodge this but only after a few seconds other wise the meteor will still follow you and let's not forget hey after X time/health he calls so many adds.

If you have to know that much details then how do you have fun that a damn job. Think about all the you must do this at this point that a player that lives in Cyrodiil don't know cause they never do this stuff.

I have the benefit you great gear and powers what do PvE noobs have. Frustration and random number generator.

code65536

Magdalina wrote: »

[wall of text]

I agree 100%.

I've said it before--there is a lot of L2P that needs to happen in this game. And I don't mean that in an "elitist looking down" kind of a way. I mean that in a "L2P is an integral part of the game that we all have to go through" kind of a way.

My first time in vCoH was with a group of friends--all of us newbies who had never done it before, and after some hours, we just gave up. Despite that, a week later, I was back in, and after a few more hours of wiping, we finally killed him. And you know what? It was fun. It's fun to get together with nice people and figure things out. Last week, I was on a helm farm run of vCoH with just two other people, no dedicated tank or DPS, and we cleared it in under 15 minutes.

We all start as clueless newbies, and we get better when we get challenged. That painful wipefest in vCoH made me go back and review what happened, look through my skills to figure out what I could've done differently, and it made me a better player.

We need difficult content or otherwise there's no reason for anyone to improve.

And it's okay to have some dungeons that are harder than others: the nonvet dungeons serve as the training ground for the easy vet dungeons, which in turn serve as the training ground for the harder vet dungeons, which in turn serve as the training ground for people who want to bash their heads against stuff like vMoL.

Anyway, I also think that a large part of the problem is ZOS itself.

• The one and only combat tutorial that you get in this game is in the Wailing Prison. It teaches you to light-attack, to heavy-attack, to block, to exploit an off-balance enemy with a heavy attack, and to break free. Basically, it does a horrible job of teaching you how combat works.
• There is no clear messaging to a new player how different stats work. You give people choices: points in health, magicka, or stamina, but give them no information on what the consequences of these choices are. For example, when I started playing, I thought that magicka just meant that I could cast more often--I didn't know that it would make my spells hit harder. Similarly, I wore heavy armor when I started playing because, well, it had the biggest numbers. Sure, I noticed that there were some things about "spell penetration" and "critical" in the light armor passives, but what did those things even mean?
• There is no tutorial about what tanks, healers, and DPS do. The Cyrodiil introductory quest goes into quite a bit of detail--it even teaches you how to use a siege weapon repair kit. In contrast, the Undaunted introductory quest just tells you to visit a dungeon and come back. There should be in-game dialog during that quest that tells people about healers, tanks, taunting, etc. I had to ask in zone chat for what "tank" meant. (ESO is my first and only MMO.)

I think the game would be much better--and we would have fewer struggles if...

• ZOS revamped the combat tutorial so that it better reflects what combat is actually like.
• ZOS had better messaging about what various stats actually do in the end. They throw out numbers like "crit chance" (I had to get a combat log addon to figure out how much harder crits were compared to noncrits) and "max stamina" without any indicator of what these things actually mean. What they should do is create two new metrics on the character sheet, and call it "Spell Effectiveness Rating" and "Physical Effectiveness Rating". These will take into account Spell/Weapon Damage, Max Magicka/Stamina, Spell/Weapon Crit, Crit Modifier, and Penetration. There are people who will boast of their 3K Spell Damage and fail to realize that max magicka matters too.
• ZOS needs to teach people about roles in group dungeons. Not everyone has played a MMO before, and not everyone knows what "aggro" even means. The Undaunted introductory quest is the perfect place for this. That initiation song in that quest is a nice touch of detail, but that's just fluff--the quest does nothing to prepare players for group dungeons and is a far cry compared to, say, the Cyrodiil introductory quest.

Samphaa

This is, quite simply, terrible news, tower is already a joke, I've 3 manned hard mode on that, and they want to nerf stuff further, dungeons are the only real thing keeping me and my friends in the game. I was hoping they'd go back and make the others harder, not nerf the 3 that people find challenging.

There's a video on YouTube of a guy soloing veteran city of ash ffs.

What a joke ZOS, absolute joke, might actually be time to look for another game to play now. You are far too casual focused now, single player dlc's, arenas, nerfs to anything remotely challenging in the game, well done.