Would you be willing to rollback to 1.5?

tinythinker

yes

A qualified yes.

Basically, I would like to still see the positive changes to skill lines and what not retained. It would be easier to simply explain what I miss from "pre-1.6" than to try to explain what I would want to add to 1.5.

Prior to 1.6, everyone could roll dodge a decent amount. Stam builds had an advantage, but players learned to regularly roll and block while avoiding red circles and such. Doing so gave ultimate points.

While you could stack a stat like spell power or max health, the diminishing returns from soft caps meant that there was more room to try different arrangements/play-styles, so there were many builds even though a few deemed the most powerful (a.k.a. robes, sword and board, resto staff) were very common. ZOS even used to feature different builds, though this started happening less often and hasn't been done since October 2015. Plus because thing like spell damage/weapon damage were blended in gear and in the stats for staffs, stacking in one area was even harder.

There were problems of course, like magicka builds perpetually block-casting, and pain-trains, etc, that people wanted to end. Some called for making it easier to stack a single type of damage, and some went further asking for the removal of soft caps. These changes would supposedly fix the problems players were concerned about then.

The result was 1.6/2.0, wherein lots of strengths were nerfed and you had to earn them back via Champ Points. But taking away the old caps and letting stats stack easier made damage skyrocket/TTK implode in PvP and allowed builds with features such as "infinite dodge-roll". That was great for Bow users in PvP, but the players #%$#ed about it so the solution was to nerf damage for everyone in PvP and nerf dodge-rolling for everyone in the game. That pattern - nerfing many or all players to try to "balance" what 1.6 unleashed - continues even now.

The imbalances created by 1.6 and the subsequent "fixes" (and "fixes of the fixes") have spread into skill lines of all types and other areas. DPS is king. Healers are somewhat necessary but shouldn't be allowed to impair the damage too much, and tanks are mostly needed in PvE for trials and *some* group dungeon bosses. Otherwise, just load up on DPS (and maybe a hybrid DPS/healer) and burn, baby, burn.

There was no balancing system like boons/banes included with the Champ Trees, nor a "getting strong over here makes you weaker over there" caveat. You just get more bad-ass in all areas the more Champ Points you get, so why not invest in damage done and damage mitigated? Just stand in the red and do insane damage and if you get a little low get topped off by a burst heal.

So what I would like to see when I say "Yes" to a return to pre-1.6:

- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else

- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system

- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off

- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines

Thank for reading.

tinythinker

yes

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

My answer doesn't matter since I'm already transitioning to another game, but anything would be better than the mess we've had since IC.

Where ya headed?

mchermie

yes

Yes, but I would rather go back to 1.6 with dynamic ult regen

zyk

no

2.2 sucks. So did 1.5. At least as much. 2.2 only seems to suck more because we're experiencing it right now.

Satiar

Its so wierd with the lag too. Lag now is worse but abilities go through, 1.5 lag was better but no abilities worked so no one died.

What even is that?

Millerman34n

yes

I would like 1.6 with dynamic ultimate and no cp! But I'll take 1.5 any day!

Ixtyr

no

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

There's a lot of nostalgia at work here. Sure, there were some elements that were nice, but as far as I can recall, I actually found PvP to be a lot LESS enjoyable back in the first few months of 2015 than it was, even with the lag, in the post-1.6 world.

Satiar wrote: »

Its so wierd with the lag too. Lag now is worse but abilities go through, 1.5 lag was better but no abilities worked so no one died.

What even is that?

Exactly. Like, at least now while my FPS is crap and everything is rubberbanding all over the place, my abilities actually hit enemies and work. I remember having 25 people fighting over a resource and literally just spamming every ability I could, nothing ever happening for a full five minutes, then half the raids got hard D/Cs and suddenly everyone else was just dead.

No thanks, I don't wanna go back to that.

OdinForge

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

It was only useless, because ZOS never took the time to fix it right.

Stamina builds could have easily existed alongside magicka builds pre 1.6, with the inclusion of stam based class abilities and heals like vigor etc.

There is some nostalgia, but the game was undeniably better.

Kwivur

yes

I would like to roll-back. I think I've demanded it a few times in random threads. lol.. I remember having fun pre 1.6.

Cody

Draxys wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Nostalgia has a lot to answer for. Everyone just ran around with soft-capped hp, primary resourse and damage type, and nBs sucked *snore*

NB didn't suck, you just sucked.

stamblades sucked. Not everyone played a manablade. People like Krim did not represent all NBs

Poxheart

yes

@Satiar did pretty well as a stamina NB at the time. That's not to say Zose couldn't have improved the situation by implementing the stam/mag divide that came in 1.6 without adding all the other changes that jacked things up. Ultimately that's my issue with the way Zose's methods; rather than making regular minor changes to improve things they do infrequent major changes that aren't thoroughly tested & where the implications aren't considered.

Satiar

No one had any idea how good siphoning attacks was.

Kelleton

yes

soft caps ftw..bring in some build diversity.

Cody

Poxheart wrote: »

@Satiar did pretty well as a stamina NB at the time. That's not to say Zose couldn't have improved the situation by implementing the stam/mag divide that came in 1.6 without adding all the other changes that jacked things up. Ultimately that's my issue with the way Zose's methods; rather than making regular minor changes to improve things they do infrequent major changes that aren't thoroughly tested & where the implications aren't considered.

and satiar did not represent all NBs either:D

that was not your point though, i just thought i would point that out. and no offence satiar:)

Satiar

Cody wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

@Satiar did pretty well as a stamina NB at the time. That's not to say Zose couldn't have improved the situation by implementing the stam/mag divide that came in 1.6 without adding all the other changes that jacked things up. Ultimately that's my issue with the way Zose's methods; rather than making regular minor changes to improve things they do infrequent major changes that aren't thoroughly tested & where the implications aren't considered.

and satiar did not represent all NBs either:D

that was not your point though, i just thought i would point that out. and no offence satiar:)

No worries lol.

I wasn't good enough to be famous back than either, it's why I took up zerging

Soris

yes

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

Cody

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

Soris

yes

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

For sorc? Yes maybe. All other 3 classes had viable roam and duel spec. I used to play stamplar and it was miles better than magiplar.

Cody

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

For sorc? Yes maybe. All other 3 classes had viable roam and duel spec. I used to play stamplar and it was miles better than magiplar.

you must not have tried a stamblade

djnapstyb14_ESO

no

Softcaps got played

Soris

yes

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

For sorc? Yes maybe. All other 3 classes had viable roam and duel spec. I used to play stamplar and it was miles better than magiplar.

you must not have tried a stamblade

I didn't but i fought with them. There were good stamblade builds out there and were pita on 1v1 fight. They used to use 2hand/dw or snb. Spam sparks and hit with the wrecking blow from stealth or animation cancelling with light+puncture+bash. When they spam sparks, you could not even hit them unless you had any aoe spell.
DK build was similar but kinda hybrid like templar build. Even they had op celebrities like Lefty and Xsorus. Definitely not bad specs for roam and duel.

"Stamina builds were bad before 1.6" argument is just a myth. They were not bad. Not at all. They are now better though.

Cody

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

For sorc? Yes maybe. All other 3 classes had viable roam and duel spec. I used to play stamplar and it was miles better than magiplar.

you must not have tried a stamblade

I didn't but i fought with them. There were good stamblade builds out there and were pita on 1v1 fight. They used to use 2hand/dw or snb. Spam sparks and hit with the wrecking blow from stealth or animation cancelling with light+puncture+bash. When they spam sparks, you could not even hit them unless you had any aoe spell.
DK build was similar but kinda hybrid like templar build. Even they had op celebrities like Lefty and Xsorus. Definitely not bad specs for roam and duel.

"Stamina builds were bad before 1.6" argument is just a myth. They were not bad. Not at all. They are now better though.

they were not fine. Sparks was hard to use, and meant that player would be less effective against ranged players. uppercut could be interrupted via crushing shock and made useless. and i dont care how good Xsorus or Lefty were with them, they do not represent the majority (no offense intended to them)

a shield stamblade would have their butts kicked in any confrontation with any half decent mana shield build, and DW was only good for sparks and hidden blade, one vulnerable to the commonly used reflective scales, and another that only worked on melee attacks. Stamblades were garbage, anyone that could make them work was a fantastic player.

Soris

yes

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Hell no. Stamina was completely useless back then.

Lol you think so? It was just not one button to kill but it was no where near useless.

not useless, but garbage compared to mana.

For sorc? Yes maybe. All other 3 classes had viable roam and duel spec. I used to play stamplar and it was miles better than magiplar.

you must not have tried a stamblade

I didn't but i fought with them. There were good stamblade builds out there and were pita on 1v1 fight. They used to use 2hand/dw or snb. Spam sparks and hit with the wrecking blow from stealth or animation cancelling with light+puncture+bash. When they spam sparks, you could not even hit them unless you had any aoe spell.
DK build was similar but kinda hybrid like templar build. Even they had op celebrities like Lefty and Xsorus. Definitely not bad specs for roam and duel.

"Stamina builds were bad before 1.6" argument is just a myth. They were not bad. Not at all. They are now better though.

they were not fine. Sparks was hard to use, and meant that player would be less effective against ranged players. uppercut could be interrupted via crushing shock and made useless. and i dont care how good Xsorus or Lefty were with them, they do not represent the majority (no offense intended to them)

a shield stamblade would have their butts kicked in any confrontation with any half decent mana shield build, and DW was only good for sparks and hidden blade, one vulnerable to the commonly used reflective scales, and another that only worked on melee attacks. Stamblades were garbage, anyone that could make them work was a fantastic player.

Agree to disagree. I have played with stamina/hybrid builds for 6 months straight in 1.4 and 1.5 on my templar and i was not a ganker. I fought many good stamina/hybrid builds on all classes and they were competitive in the hands of a skilled player. Of course some combinations needed buffs like stamblades lacking good class synergy with stamina builds such as blazing shield and dragon blood, but that doesn't mean they were utter garbage and unplayable.
Also you could not take the majority/average players as the base of an argument because they suck anyways with every build. Look how much they buff the stamblades but still most people suck with it, only a handful of them is real threat. Sorry for saying this.

kkampaseb17_ESO

no

I think your thread could be more elaborate. Going back to 1.5 means almost non-viable stamina builds, impenetrable reducing crit chance to 0 making several builds and class abilities useless etc.

So considering that, I would say no. However, if you keep today's balance and introduce soft caps that is another story.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

no

You cannot go back.

Dubhliam

no

I prefer to have no stam regen while blocking, thank you.

If people could permablock again, tanks could tank with just Footman and Defensive Stance slotted while focusing everything else into making their build high dps.

I would like to see more skills that focus on resource management for tanks, so that if you want to mitigate damage, you have to combine gear with CP with skills to tank effectively, therefore disabling you from dealing damage (which you should not be focusing on).

DKs are ok with Earthen Heart passives.
NBs tanks should get a buff in Leeching Strikes
Sorcs tanks should get a buff in Dark Deal.
Temp tanks should get a buff in Radiant Aura.

As for all the non tank roles:
I don't think softcaps would be a good thing. Instead they should reduce or completely remove the damage modifier from max magicka/stamina.

OdinForge

Soris wrote: »

"Stamina builds were bad before 1.6" argument is just a myth. They were not bad. Not at all. They are now better though.

Sorry this is entirely ***.

All I ever did was solo roam PvP every patch before 1.6. I only ever met 3 other players on the NA side that ran or experimented with stamina with any success. The only class before 1.6 that could sort of make a pure stamina build work was DK, and the only player I've ever seen doing that was Xylena, still vastly outgunned by every magicka build of the time. Jack had a decent non resto (bordering on hybrid) Temp setup going, but against a DW/Resto hybrid running sparks it was entirely useless.

Every other class would either have to run resto staff off-hand like I did with NB, and become more of a hybrid or become entirely glass with bow for 1-shots. Even as a DK with a pure stamina build, the top notch hybrid stam builds IMHO were still better anyway, stamina had no leg to stand on.

Ghostbane

no

1.5 was great, and I really REALLY loved it, but in the greater sense of the game, it was not balanced.

In my opinion, 1.6 was excellent. It was the first time I felt playing all my classes (of both stam and magicka varieties) that I had viable options. Not sure on dynamic ult gen with 1.6, as the damage/TTK was insane.

I found Magicka DK competitive and challenging in 1.6 in HA, I want that back more than the easy mode facerolling of 1.5

Airyus

yes

Lag? What Lag?

Soris

yes

OdinForge wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

"Stamina builds were bad before 1.6" argument is just a myth. They were not bad. Not at all. They are now better though.

Sorry this is entirely ***.

All I ever did was solo roam PvP every patch before 1.6. I only ever met 3 other players on the NA side that ran or experimented with stamina with any success. The only class before 1.6 that could sort of make a pure stamina build work was DK, and the only player I've ever seen doing that was Xylena, still vastly outgunned by every magicka build of the time. Jack had a decent non resto (bordering on hybrid) Temp setup going, but against a DW/Resto hybrid running sparks it was entirely useless.

Every other class would either have to run resto staff off-hand like I did with NB, and become more of a hybrid or become entirely glass with bow for 1-shots. Even as a DK with a pure stamina build, the top notch hybrid stam builds IMHO were still better anyway, stamina had no leg to stand on.

Most stamina builds except gank builds were more or less hybrids anyway. I meant stamina hybrids in there. I had hybrid templar back then with 2h skills for offence(and rally heal) and magicka for heals and shield and purify etc. So yeah that makes me hybrid.
But it was an absolute beast build. Best build for duels and small scale ive played so far. Here is the picture of it, on 2h bar my weapon dmg was 209 with rally (without cyro buffs) Dk version was also more or less like this.