Coming from a magsorc. Please ZOS, remove shieldstack!

Refuse2GrowUp

olsborg wrote: »

@OLIVI3R , yea shieldbreaker is a *** set that produces idiot gameplay of spamming light attack on people instead of using your actual build and skills, its the only counter to shields, but imo it should deal dmg to the actual shield.

Shieldbreaker is a good set, and serves its purpose well. There would be no point in having the set if it did damage to the shield...everything does damage to the shield.

Shieldbreaker will not kill a sorc if they have a heal on their bar (a lot of sorcs started running Combat Prayer as a counter). Of course, this requires sorcs to drop either their DW or Destro. It counter balances some of pure burst of Sorcs by making them run something other than a shield(s) and burst DPS skills.

That said, Shieldbreaker is not only a counter balance to Sorcs, even tho Sorcs take the set extremely personally. Some NBs run Healing Ward, DKs have Magma/Corrosive, Igneous, and Hardened Armor, Templars have Blazing Shields, Barrier is a common zerg tool, and some sets proc shields. Shieldbreaker is there to help change a meta and NOT just kill Sorcs. To run shieldbreaker, you are giving up a valuable 5pc bonus against anyone not using a shield. Furthermore, it is not the only set designed to counter a specific skill or mechanic.

And note, I say this from an unbiased perspective as I play both a MagSorc and a Stam NB (who does have SB )

Anyway, this is all an aside from the topic of the discussion. Sorry to derail.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

olsborg wrote: »

nuffsaid

yes but wont ever happen.

olsborg

@Refuse2GrowUp
the reason I dont really like shieldbreaker, even if i sometimes slot it on my nb is that it promoted idiotplay. Ppl resort to just spamming LA while the rest of their group does real pvp. They made a set to dumb down people, i cant rly condone such a set, personally I weave as I always did, I dont resort to just spamming it mindlessly on people just because.... Its the only real counter to shieldstacking, so we do what we must, but it doesnt do it in the best of ways

joleda4ub17_ESO

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

IF Nightblade has to get one of its main defense nerfed down. I don't see why Sorcs can't. We all know it is coming even the developers talking about it.


I want a cast time on it myself. Sorcs would take far more skill to play.

I don't understand why this is a bad idea. Other skills, currently considered balanced by ZOS, have a cast time. For example, the Templar's Healing Ritual ability and one of it's morphs has a 2 second cast time, and the other morph has a 1.7 cast time. Healing Ritual is a point-blank aoe with a radius of 10 meters. I'm sure there are other skills that also have cast timers.

Infinite12

Lenikus wrote: »

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Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Shield stacking in PvP needs to go away.

People who don't shieldbreaker need to stop doing pvp

This is a stupid comment. People complain about cloak but there are counters to cloak. Detect pots, aoe, magelight, piercing mark. You only need to do ONE of those things to counter cloak. But I have to change FIVE pieces of armor to combat shield stacking? I essentially have to change my build to deal with shield stacking sorcs. Shield stacking is dumb and needs to go.

izJordy

lmao, i watched a stam sorc 1v1 a mag sorc and the stam sorc won then the mag sorc was complaining about shield breaker, so he took the shield breaker off and still won in a 1v1 against him, so all i can say is l2p.

olsborg

izJordy wrote: »

lmao, i watched a stam sorc 1v1 a mag sorc and the stam sorc won then the mag sorc was complaining about shield breaker, so he took the shield breaker off and still won in a 1v1 against him, so all i can say is l2p.

Well it all comes down to player skill, a level 10 stamsorc can in theory beat a v16 stamnb.

Refuse2GrowUp

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

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rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

IF Nightblade has to get one of its main defense nerfed down. I don't see why Sorcs can't. We all know it is coming even the developers talking about it.


I want a cast time on it myself. Sorcs would take far more skill to play.

I don't understand why this is a bad idea. Other skills, currently considered balanced by ZOS, have a cast time. For example, the Templar's Healing Ritual ability and one of it's morphs has a 2 second cast time, and the other morph has a 1.7 cast time. Healing Ritual is a point-blank aoe with a radius of 10 meters. I'm sure there are other skills that also have cast timers.

Not a single defensive skill in the game has a cast time:

NBs = Cloak (and some would argue Mass Hysteria)
Templar = Breath of Life and Blazing Shield
DKs = Reflective Scales and (when it was worth a damn in PvP) Dragon's Blood
Sorc's = Hardened Ward

To add a cast time to any one of these skills would more or less require you to do so for all the others as well. It is not fair to gimp a particular class and destroy their surviveability...regardless of which class is in question.

Yes, Inner Light has been made to counter Cloak. However, it is only a three second counter (it has been reduced from 5 seconds for those who are not aware). That simply means NBs will pick their targets more wisely. And since Mass Hysteria got buffed to effect more targets, NBs will either continue to burst their tgts down in a fraction of a second, pop Mass Hysteria to get the killing blow, or pop Mass Hysteria to buy the three seconds to cloak up to slip away. Really, it just keeps NBs from popping Cloak right in your face. Honestly, little will change with this counter skill. To add a cast time to any of the aforementioned skills tho is a completely different beast altogether and would cause considerable, and possibly irreparable, harm to that class.

Asherons_Call

I only use hardened ward. The 6 second healing ward is useless

Lucius_Aelius

No player should be able to build a character that has both high DPS and Tankiness at the same time, I'm not sure what the best fix would be but stacking Shields itself isn't the problem, I shield stack with Whitestrake's, Igneous Shield, Brawler, Hardened Armor, Shielded Assault, and Ferocious Leap, and of those Ferocious Leap is the only shield with any strength on it's own, especially in PvP those other shields each hardly do a thing, and even altogether it's questionable if it's even effective at all thanks to Shields already being nerfed, which I don't think they should be nerfed in PvP like that (and the Shieldbreaker set was just a terrible idea to begin with, it doesn't fix anything and just makes Shields more useless for the rest of us who aren't stacking ridiculous amounts of Shields).

I do think that if there are Shields which when stacked are unfairly powerful then those sheilds need to be nerfed individually until they can be stacked without adding up to too much, and one fix I think that would be fair is to make Shields scale off of HP, that way you actually have to build for Tankiness to achieve Tankiness and if you build for DPS your shields won't be nearly as strong, but still enough to have some survivability and not be useless. And if they do that and nerf any Sorc sheilds that may be OP then they should undo the change in PvP of Shields being half-strength, which is messed up and makes my Shields mostly useless (if not outright detrimental).

Thelon

Asherons_Call wrote: »

I only use hardened ward. The 6 second healing ward is useless

Artjuh90

Doncellius wrote: »

@Destruent Yes yes, Sorcerers only need one skill for survival (Hardened Ward). They also only HAVE one skill for survival (Hardened Ward). It's this ridiculously childish attitude brought by you bad butthurt PvPers which will cause this game to absolutely suck for everyone. Have you even played a Magicka Sorcerer? Leave PvP balance solutions to PvP. (Nerf already low Bow DPS in PvEbecause gankers....)

It is one thing to call for a severe bug fix (ex. Toppling Charge). It is another when you pester @Wrobel and other Devs themselves to make changes which will make a class not only weak, but clunky and unfun to play because of this whining.

The magicka variant's survivability for this class is entirely dependant on shields. If a cast time is placed on Hardened Ward, you may as well remove the skill. You recast when your current damage shield is quickly depleted, causing you to be 1-2 shot kills from any group dungeon mob since you stacked Max Magicka instead of Health with the priority of keeping shields up.

I've had the opportunity to see magicka Nightblades and Templars which almost completely mimic my thoery-crafted builds in action. Both have enormous healing/health. What people seem to never understand is that shields do not regenerate. It is easier in most instances to survive burst damage in PvE as a Magicka Sorc, but you must recast your Hardened Ward. This lowers DPS and resources. For Magicka NB, you can spam Funnel Health with Duel Swords, providing very good damge for very low cost AND strong heal to yourelf/allies. Templars have jabs and BoL among others skills.

Same message: Leave PvE alone, rebalance PvP.

uhm all i can say is for Nb it was cloak?
and in PvE

Surak73

Yep, and remove all armors as well, since shields compensate for the lack of armor of a sorcerer.

Then, everyone should go to battle nude...

Refuse2GrowUp

Surak73 wrote: »

Then, everyone should go to battle nude...

Reminds me of a dream I had once, but this is the wrong forum for that discussion lol

Jhunn

Why are people failing to see the bigger picture? A cast time on shields? Are you for real?

So a squishy magicka NB will have a cast time on healing ward? A light armor DK a cast time on igneous? On harness?

The problem is hardened ward and how it stacks with the other shields. Smh.

Vaoh

@Destruent This just means you are very skilled. MOST cannot suffice with just Hardened Ward. It is the main magicka defensive skill for a Sorc, like a Nightblade has (quite little known) means to have unbelievable HoT, Templar has BoL+puncturing sweeps, DK has Dragons Blood and soon (I think) Burning Embers. I never use Annulment on my magicka sorc unless I am soloing certain Vet dungeon bosses, but without it I cannot have that chance, while a V16 Magicka Nightblade for example can because there is no random or artificial limitation placed on their character to mess up survivability. You and I, along with many other very powerful players, are NOT at all the majority.

Like I have said, making significant PvE changes because Devs can't balance PvP is a big-time NO. Making a balance change specific to PvP can be easily implemented, like reworking the skill to have two separate effects (Teleport Strike) or with Battle Spirit. And yeah this thread is about shieldstacking, but with a specific emphasis on stopping both Hardened Ward and Annulment(+morphs) from stacking. As no other class is affected by this, it is in reality a "HARD nerf magicka sorc" thread. They will take the big hit.

And you can't be serious bro about NOT using Hardened Ward as a magicka sorc. Sure you can be some really easy stuff without it, but if your health is high enough to not use the ward, your DPS will be horrible. It's why smart Sorcs stack Max Magicka over Spell damage. You get shields+damage. Max health stacking just gives you....well...health.

Vaoh

@Artjuh90

Umm.... What do you mean? Cloak was not really nerfed. The purge on cloak was just unfair and utterly killed any DoT/Magicka DK build. Suppressing DoTs is a much better solution. In PvE this really does not effect you.

Unless you are talking about something else related to Cloak. What are you referring to? Please be more specific! I'm really not sure what you are saying.

Artjuh90

Doncellius wrote: »

@Artjuh90

Umm.... What do you mean? Cloak was not really nerfed. The purge on cloak was just unfair and utterly killed any DoT/Magicka DK build. Suppressing DoTs is a much better solution. In PvE this really does not effect you.

Unless you are talking about something else related to Cloak. What are you referring to? Please be more specific! I'm really not sure what you are saying.

Being blocked out using cloak, while already neglegting the invisabilty is a double nerf because it also locks out of passives. if there would be a abilty that insta destroys shields i would wanna see the sorc cry. i know i will manage on my nb cause mobility but the fact remains that it is utter bs sorc have high dps, mobilty, surviabilty and can support really well.especially when TG drops there is no other build which has this.
NB have high dps but cut short because no crits on shields, beter stealthdetection and more reason to run the counter stealth radient magelight. mobilty with shade but nowhere near the streak. surviabilty is cut short because we can't actually use our main defensive abilty. and sorc have beter CC and healing spellpower.
DK has great DPS and surviabilty yet way less then it should because dragonblood should not be affected by battle spirit and is less then a sorc if you dont use a ult for defense which makes you lose out on your strongest dps abilty + meteor no longer reflectable. support is about the same as sorc but no mobilty.
ye not even going to talk about templar we all know they are there

Vaoh

@Artjuh90

I understand that sorcs may be need to be toned down SLIGHTLY in PvP as it is very strong. Any class can be strong though as a skilled player. All I have said is that none of these PvP balance changes need to make their way into PvE, where it is not an issue. That's all. PvE. Not PvP.

Just because you feel one class has been nerfed, it doesn't mean in any logical way that others need to be brought down as a result. This would create a terrible domino effect!

Would it be fair to say "Look! Templars have a weak shield and a broken gap closer. Reduce Sorcerer shields by 80% and make Bolt Escape to cost 10K a cast!" I don't think so. Likewise, when Sorc shields are nerfed will you find it fair if Cloak had its duration reduced to 1.5 seconds (-1 second)? I think not.

Septimus_Magna

I still dont understand why stam builds need shieldbreaker, for example on my stam NB I have 4.1k weap dmg and 2.4k stam regen. Ambush + SA and Ive bursted though hardened.

Also when I get attacked by a magicka build on my sorc I can just sit back and relax, only skilled players get though those shields.

Destruent

@Doncellius I don' know any Sorc who uses hardened ward in group PvE (maybe at planar inhibitor/kena/lord warden, but absorb magic works here aswell). And no, they don't care about their HP (usually at 16.8k or lower)...
It is widely used when soloing stuff like vMSA or group dungeons, but anywhere else....no.
Don't see a problem if some guys need to learn how to avoid incoming damage, i think it's the better gameplay compared to hiding behind shields...

Artjuh90

Doncellius wrote: »

@Artjuh90

I understand that sorcs may be need to be toned down SLIGHTLY in PvP as it is very strong. Any class can be strong though as a skilled player. All I have said is that none of these PvP balance changes need to make their way into PvE, where it is not an issue. That's all. PvE. Not PvP.

Just because you feel one class has been nerfed, it doesn't mean in any logical way that others need to be brought down as a result. This would create a terrible domino effect!

Would it be fair to say "Look! Templars have a weak shield and a broken gap closer. Reduce Sorcerer shields by 80% and make Bolt Escape to cost 10K a cast!" I don't think so. Likewise, when Sorc shields are nerfed will you find it fair if Cloak had its duration reduced to 1.5 seconds (-1 second)? I think not.

locked down out of cloak is worse then a shorter duration actually which we can after TG

Septimus_Magna

Destruent wrote: »

@Doncellius I don' know any Sorc who uses hardened ward in group PvE (maybe at planar inhibitor/kena/lord warden, but absorb magic works here aswell). And no, they don't care about their HP (usually at 16.8k or lower)...
It is widely used when soloing stuff like vMSA or group dungeons, but anywhere else....no.
Don't see a problem if some guys need to learn how to avoid incoming damage, i think it's the better gameplay compared to hiding behind shields...

In PUG groups I always run Hardened + Harness (43k shield), dont trust them tanks and healers, it also helps a lot with sustain.

Destruent

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

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Destruent wrote: »

@Doncellius I don' know any Sorc who uses hardened ward in group PvE (maybe at planar inhibitor/kena/lord warden, but absorb magic works here aswell). And no, they don't care about their HP (usually at 16.8k or lower)...
It is widely used when soloing stuff like vMSA or group dungeons, but anywhere else....no.
Don't see a problem if some guys need to learn how to avoid incoming damage, i think it's the better gameplay compared to hiding behind shields...

In PUG groups I always run Hardened + Harness (43k shield), dont trust them tanks and healers, it also helps a lot with sustain.

Sure, but then it's not the fault of the game... ;-)

eventide03b14a_ESO

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

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a1x23 wrote: »

Coming from a magicka sorc if we had a decent heal other than healing ward shield stacking wouldnt be as much if an issue. Hardened ward is our only defense and harness magicka only works against magicka builds and available to everyone. If i could actually heal myself without a shield i would but i have no other viable option.

Crits and proccd frags provide all the healing a sorc needs.

Proccd frags on DKs? Do I get that amazing heal before or after it comes barreling back at me?

corrosivechains

it seriously is just a bunch of nightblades wanting this nerf, and that should tell the developers something. I just got a feeling Wrobel will take the exact opposite interpretation.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Well, if they add a cast time to shields, magicka sorcs are officially dead. If some whiners can't get through a shield in PvP they shouldn't just take away every single defence a sorc got just to make the whiners happy.

Vaoh

@Destruent

If you are a Magicka Sorc and do not use Conjured Ward you are doing it wrong... You're purposely weakening your character by neglecting to use your native means of survivability (Magicka Templar without BoL or Puncturing Sweeps). With my shields I also happen to never need the healer's help, which also makes it far easier for them to only heal two players. Really, you should always run Conjured Ward.

Besides, if Conjured Ward is so unnecessary (as you have risen above the need for such an ability unlike EVERY single Magicka Sorc I have ever played with) then why are you asking to nerf it? Maybe something else needs to be done, or nothing at all. Bug fixes to other class skills would be much more helpful ruining a vital skill and then rebalancing everything.

Note: I am good enough to easily solo normal group dungeons. Because of this, ZOS should remove the grouping function in normal group dungeons, since you don't really need it. <--- How do you think the huge majority of players feel, who can't?

The bigger picture is important to look at.

@corrosivechains @cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Exactly. "OMG that Sorc keeps killing me with his mines and magicka det+curse! And I can't even one-shot him! That's it nerf PvP AND PvP shieldstacking cause I suck too much to beat him so the Devs better ruin their class! Back to the forums!"

@Septimus_Magna I hear you. Same. I'm just glad that the hatred in which a select few loud individuals on the forums have toward classes do not at all represent what I hear in-game. Some of these people would actually be content to have a class gutted because they don't play it or since they have near cap CP and Gold V16 BiS gear/enchants.

I have 320ish CP, and l All Gold mostly BiS gear/enchants and I still understand most never will. Why screw it up for them and ruin my own fun? It messes up everyone except PvP complainers, 100% unrelated to PvE aka almost the entire game.