Blocking Nerfed Again

firewatch

The Heavy Armor passive "Bracing" was replaced with "Wrath". Bracing reduced the cost of blocking 20%. So, now (with no stamina regen while blocking) it will cost 20% more to block when wearing heavy armor. They changed the sturdy trait to reduce blocking cost to make up for it I guess. But, a legendary piece of armor with the sturdy trait will only reduce block cost 3%. So, you will need 7 legendary pieces to reduce block cost the same as the Bracing passive does now. Wrath slightly increases weapon and spell damage. I don't like it. The biggest reason I wore heavy armor was to reduce block cost. I don't think the slight buff to the Constitution passive will help much. At the very least it will become more difficult to manage resources and make tanking even more boring. IMO they weakened Heavy Armor even more with this move.

Firerock2

The whole point behind heavy armor is to be a tank not to dish out damage. They need to change Bracing back to what it was.

Personofsecrets

@ZOS_Finn , why was the best heavy armor passive removed in exchange for wrath (nothing)?

sebban

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

Weesacs

/signed

This is a sh*t change if you ask me. I wear heavy armour to TANK ... not to deal DAMAGE!

Any chance we can get the reason as to why this was changed?

umagon

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn , why was the best heavy armor passive removed in exchange for wrath (nothing)?

Actually they did add something they increased the over all Resistance by 2k or so if you have the right traits and they changed bone wall to scale from stam. Basically you can take that 2k away from whatever you are using now and distribute it elsewhere. They seem to be making block more of a momentary thing while giving more tools to mitigate damage. The funny thing is I have more resistance with my two hander than my one hander and shield. This with the same gear, champ points, etc. Also they gave more health and return resources. I think people have to look at the totality of the changes and how to use them before making a final judgement. With the same gear I use in live on pst I have more def, reg and damage all while using 7/7 heavy.

firewatch

umagon wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn , why was the best heavy armor passive removed in exchange for wrath (nothing)?

Actually they did add something they increased the over all Resistance by 2k or so if you have the right traits and they changed bone wall to scale from stam. Basically you can take that 2k away from whatever you are using now and distribute it elsewhere. They seem to be making block more of a momentary thing while giving more tools to mitigate damage. The funny thing is I have more resistance with my two hander than my one hander and shield. This with the same gear, champ points, etc. Also they gave more health and return resources. I think people have to look at the totality of the changes and how to use them before making a final judgement. With the same gear I use in live on pst I have more def, reg and damage all while using 7/7 heavy.

How did they increase resistance by 2k? Armor resistance is hard capped at 50% anyway, so I'm not sure how that helps the case for Heavy Armor.

Reevster

I suspect they did it because of the heavy armor changes that allow more DPS, personally I would rather make more DPS and resource recovery then have blocking as it was. To have both would have be preferred, but ah well.

Daveheart

I'd personally rather they dropped the additional healing received buff to keep the block cost reduction in place (especially since they increased the base cost of blocking).

AfkNinja

firewatch wrote: »

The Heavy Armor passive "Bracing" was replaced with "Wrath". Bracing reduced the cost of blocking 20%. So, now (with no stamina regen while blocking) it will cost 20% more to block when wearing heavy armor. They changed the sturdy trait to reduce blocking cost to make up for it I guess. But, a legendary piece of armor with the sturdy trait will only reduce block cost 3%. So, you will need 7 legendary pieces to reduce block cost the same as the Bracing passive does now. Wrath slightly increases weapon and spell damage. I don't like it. The biggest reason I wore heavy armor was to reduce block cost. I don't think the slight buff to the Constitution passive will help much. At the very least it will become more difficult to manage resources and make tanking even more boring. IMO they weakened Heavy Armor even more with this move.

umagon

firewatch wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn , why was the best heavy armor passive removed in exchange for wrath (nothing)?

Actually they did add something they increased the over all Resistance by 2k or so if you have the right traits and they changed bone wall to scale from stam. Basically you can take that 2k away from whatever you are using now and distribute it elsewhere. They seem to be making block more of a momentary thing while giving more tools to mitigate damage. The funny thing is I have more resistance with my two hander than my one hander and shield. This with the same gear, champ points, etc. Also they gave more health and return resources. I think people have to look at the totality of the changes and how to use them before making a final judgement. With the same gear I use in live on pst I have more def, reg and damage all while using 7/7 heavy.

How did they increase resistance by 2k? Armor resistance is hard capped at 50% anyway, so I'm not sure how that helps the case for Heavy Armor.

They did this through the trait changes. When you mix all gold heavy armor, with defending, one reinforced, one nirnhoned, 40 champ points (20 in spell shield/20 in HRF) and the minor/major ward/resolve you can maintain 30k resistance in combat. This allows you reconfigure your build to focus on other things. It adds flexibility to a heavy build because now you can get to the cap easier.

On my nightblade I am literally running around with 30K res, 20% dodge, 1.2k health rec, 1.7k stam rec, 2.3k weapon damage, 1.8k crit resistance all while using a two handed weapon and 7/7 heavy.

Lynx7386

You guys are over reacting. The increase in magicka and stamina return from taking damage will be huge. People are reporting over 1100 stamina getting returned every 4 seconds,which is enough to keep blocking even without stamina regen.

SirSilverMask

Lynx7386 wrote: »

You guys are over reacting. The increase in magicka and stamina return from taking damage will be huge. People are reporting over 1100 stamina getting returned every 4 seconds,which is enough to keep blocking even without stamina regen.

The increase in regen doesn't help tanks when they are really needed such as vMoL where the tank is taking aggro from more then a single source. The buff only helps the tanks that only hold aggro on a single enemy. Otherwise, tanks are losing an extra 100 stam per enemy per second.

Oompuh

Agreed, bracing needs to be restored. Blocking costing 20% more and having a little damage now doesn't interest me. There was no reason to remove that

Shunravi

sebban wrote: »

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

Well I would hazard a guess, but it would seem maybe they equate buffs with 'moar damages' instead of buffs....

Morimizo

Unfortunately, I think this is just one of many such nerfs that will continue, in order to retroactively balance the game for max CPs. Expect every aspect that you can add to in CP to be nerfed in other skills/attributes/etc. as patches are released in the coming months.

Agree with OP, and ALWAYS despise nerfs as the only method of balance. But it's easier.

Shunravi

Morimizo wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think this is just one of many such nerfs that will continue, in order to retroactively balance the game for max CPs. Expect every aspect that you can add to in CP to be nerfed in other skills/attributes/etc. as patches are released in the coming months.

Agree with OP, and ALWAYS despise nerfs as the only method of balance. But it's easier.

Yup, another reason I do not like the cp system. They balance the base game to punish you without them.

Arthg

firewatch wrote: »

At the very least it will become more difficult to manage resources and make tanking even more boring. IMO they weakened Heavy Armor even more with this move.

How can something more difficult become more boring?
I agree the disappearance of Bracing impacts tanking in a crucial way, but this is an opportunity for us tanks to redesign tanking too, and I for one find that exciting.
Clearly the devs want to prevent permablocking, and blocking against lots of mobs will quickly drain resources. This is a challenge to our gameplay, but one that I find refreshing, quite frankly.

The only (massive) downside that I see is golding up the new gear.
I don't have 56 tempering alloys at the ready.

Weesacs

How can something more difficult become more boring?
I agree the disappearance of Bracing impacts tanking in a crucial way, but this is an opportunity for us tanks to redesign tanking too, and I for one find that exciting.
Clearly the devs want to prevent permablocking, and blocking against lots of mobs will quickly drain resources. This is a challenge to our gameplay, but one that I find refreshing, quite frankly.

The only (massive) downside that I see is golding up the new gear.
I don't have 56 tempering alloys at the ready.

Perma-blocking in PvP was the BEST counter to perma-wrecking-blowers in PvP - they left you alone after a few mins of nothing happening ... however with this change, Im not sure how im going to adapt without replacing my impenetrable traits with sturdy traits - gimping me further in PvP

QuebraRegra

Morimizo wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think this is just one of many such nerfs that will continue, in order to retroactively balance the game for max CPs. Expect every aspect that you can add to in CP to be nerfed in other skills/attributes/etc. as patches are released in the coming months.

Agree with OP, and ALWAYS despise nerfs as the only method of balance. But it's easier.

I believe you have have just pulled aside the curtain and exposed the underlying strategy. Well analyzed.

Shame CPs were re-worked shortly after they were introduced.

Autolycus

To be completely fair, Sturdy isn't the only way to recuperate that block cost reduction. There are glyphs, CP, and passive abilities that all do this instead. Many of us tanks who were already catering to the tank/hybrid playstyle (which is the reality of eso today) were using jewelry glyphs to supplement our damage and/or healing. It's simply the opposite now, where HA passives boost our damage and glyphs, CP and armor traits reduce block cost.

While I always have been a very strong supporter of reduced cost over regen (even prior to the IC nerfs which eliminated regen while blocking), I think the resource return from Constitution is rather undervalued in this thread. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't tested it, but I have a great deal of experience in all content and on every class, for what that's worth, and I don't believe this change is a negative one at all. I think the changes will adversely impact some builds, but I think on the whole, it opens up a much wider range of possibilities for both pvp and pve tanks, as well as tanking in any armor weight.

I see a lot of buzz these last couple days about how reduced cost of blocking was the "only" reason for wearing heavy armor, but that's technically inaccurate. Some may disagree with the following, and know that I'm not here trying to tell anyone they're wrong, nor do I think I know it all and am absolutely right. Heavy armor affords a significantly larger physical and spell resistance mitigation than any other armor set does. In pve, you can easily make up for this by dedicating one of your sets to something like Armor Master, which was designed to replace heavy armor to begin with.

Those of us who have been heavy armor tanks for the entirety of ESO's life to-date understand where the trade-off is in terms of set bonuses, the value of physical and spell resistances, and when and where resistance mitigation is more desirable than block mitigation. In ESO, block mitigation absolutely is superior to resistance mitigation, and from this stems the concept of perma-block tanks. In theory, we never choose blocking or resistances, we try to find a good balance between both (but block mit is still prioritized). Where does resistance mit become more valuable than block mit? The answer is pvp. Every time you get CC'd, your block mitigation is completely useless for the duration and your sole source of mitigation is resistances, unless you have some debuff like Minor Maim applied to your enemy, and even in this case, resistance mitigation comes into play first, making it more valuable than debuffs.

The reason I bring this up is because a lot of people are using the replacement of Bracing with Wrath to back the idea that HA tanking is completely obsolete now. This is simply not true. While LA and MA tanking have become more viable now than ever before due to the changes to the Sturdy trait, many of the changes to HA and sword&board have opened up a wide range of possibilities for tanks who prefer a more traditional approach too. To say that one is simply obsolete due to a single change is to ignore the big picture. We have a lot of alternatives now with these changes. I don't have a problem with LA and MA tanking, personally. What matters is the player behind the tank. How you accomplish this really doesn't matter, as long as what you do, you do well.

Ghost-Shot

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_Finn , why was the best heavy armor passive removed in exchange for wrath (nothing)?

Thats the wrong guy LT, you want @Wrobel

actosh

This needs to be tested first. On Live each block has a cost of roughly 800 for me and i never need shards.

Mumyo

sebban wrote: »

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

That was a very clear buff!
Did u see that insane regen u have?? And u still have it while blocking?

Test it, you will see! Heavy armor is 100% stronger now. No wait... more like 200%+

jbcrocks

Test it first before you start complaining lol.

HoloYoitsu

jbcrocks wrote: »

Test it first before you start complaining lol.

Are you seriously saying that those of us here on the PTS forum providing feedback about this stupid change have not been on the PTS and experienced this first hand?

Mumyo wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

That was a very clear buff!
Did u see that insane regen u have?? And u still have it while blocking?

Test it, you will see! Heavy armor is 100% stronger now. No wait... more like 200%+

Insane regen? First off, no one is going to run around in 7/7 heavy for 1100 Constitution, the people using heavy armor will be using 5 heavy and 2 med or 2 light depending on their build. That is 900 on Constitution. Every 4 seconds. That is equivalent to ~450 regen. Please explain how 450 stam regen while blocking is an insane buff?

code65536

Lynx7386 wrote: »

You guys are over reacting. The increase in magicka and stamina return from taking damage will be huge. People are reporting over 1100 stamina getting returned every 4 seconds,which is enough to keep blocking even without stamina regen.

The problem with Constitution is that it has a cooldown. Which means that it does not scale with the number of enemies that you are tanking. If you're tanking a single enemy, sure, it's sufficient compensation. But not if you're holding more aggro.

In contrast, Bracing reduced the cost per block, so it scales with the number of enemies that are on you.

Take, for example, the Flesh Abomination in vICP. If you end up in the poison doughnut, you'll get a bunch of zombies on you in addition to the boss. It's enough to drain your stamina really fast, and with that 4s cooldown, Constitution will not help you in any appreciable way, whereas Bracing would make all the difference in the world.

Septimus_Magna

Medium armor dodge tank looks like better option that the heavy armor block tank.

Xsorus

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

jbcrocks wrote: »

Test it first before you start complaining lol.

Are you seriously saying that those of us here on the PTS forum providing feedback about this stupid change have not been on the PTS and experienced this first hand?

Mumyo wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

That was a very clear buff!
Did u see that insane regen u have?? And u still have it while blocking?

Test it, you will see! Heavy armor is 100% stronger now. No wait... more like 200%+

Insane regen? First off, no one is going to run around in 7/7 heavy for 1100 Constitution, the people using heavy armor will be using 5 heavy and 2 med or 2 light depending on their build. That is 900 on Constitution. Every 4 seconds. That is equivalent to ~450 regen. Please explain how 450 stam regen while blocking is an insane buff?

One of the best sets in the game for heavy armor on pts is black rose; and if you run it you should consider 7/7 heavy cause it gives 1956 magicka and stamina ever 4 seconds... That's bloody over 900 stamina and magicka regen

code65536

Xsorus wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

jbcrocks wrote: »

Test it first before you start complaining lol.

Are you seriously saying that those of us here on the PTS forum providing feedback about this stupid change have not been on the PTS and experienced this first hand?

Mumyo wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Before, we had 1 reason to wear heavy armor. Bracing. There is now no reason at all to wear heavy armor.

We ask for buffs to Heavy Armor and we get nerfs. Thanks ZOS.

That was a very clear buff!
Did u see that insane regen u have?? And u still have it while blocking?

Test it, you will see! Heavy armor is 100% stronger now. No wait... more like 200%+

Insane regen? First off, no one is going to run around in 7/7 heavy for 1100 Constitution, the people using heavy armor will be using 5 heavy and 2 med or 2 light depending on their build. That is 900 on Constitution. Every 4 seconds. That is equivalent to ~450 regen. Please explain how 450 stam regen while blocking is an insane buff?

One of the best sets in the game for heavy armor on pts is black rose; and if you run it you should consider 7/7 heavy cause it gives 1956 magicka and stamina ever 4 seconds... That's bloody over 900 stamina and magicka regen

Meh. Black Rose doesn't work for magicka tanks. And it's more of a hybrid DPS/tank set. Fine for 4-man content. Not good for Trials tanking where you want something like Tava's for maximum group support.

Basically, the removal of Bracing is a change that works well for certain builds. Namely, hybrid builds and people who get the silly idea of DPSing in heavy armor. For serious tanking, like stepping into vMoL, this is a downright ridiculous change.

Keryss

jbcrocks wrote: »

Test it first before you start complaining lol.

Exactly... To Complain is a national sport ...