[PvE DPS] Ideal Mage CP distribution for stamina and magicka builds

Asayre
Asayre
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Please refer to http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2718988/#Comment_2718988

A link to the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing

The ideal Mage CP distribution for magicka builds can be easily calculated by maximising the following function

34fbbb2fa63e4600fc57d33892aaed2d.png

I've done this at 501 CP for two common critical chances with Julianos for a range of Elemental, DoT and Staff Ratio. In order to use the results you need to determine the ratio of your damage that is based on DoTs and Staff attacks. I've assumed that 100% of you damage falls under Elemental. Once you know the DoT and Staff ratio simply look up the corresponding row and column in the table below and read off the ideal champion point distribution.

EE = Elemental Expert
T = Thaumathurge
S = Staff Expert
Elf = Elfborn
SE = Spell Erosion

be899bc4d86424b698ab45d58dfbf562.png

a9b23f71e8b0ecc336f3a96f8bc11bde.png

Hope the table is reasonably understandable and helps everyone with optimising champion points!

Edit: This applies for a base critical modifier of 0.5 i.e. for Sorcerers and Dragonknights.
Edited by Asayre on May 20, 2016 2:03AM
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Thanks @Asayre ! looks as if I stumbled on approximately the right CP distribution for my build just by dumb luck.
    Edited by Cuyler on February 5, 2016 8:12PM
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  • code65536
    code65536
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    Thanks as always for your number-crunching!
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  • Mcwoods55
    Mcwoods55
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    where was this when I attempted to redistribute last night LOL. Thanks!
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    It assumes 65.2 and 77.2 crit chance which is for Julianos without and with a precise staff, respectively. Other crit chances can be calculated but I don't know what will be common sets in Thieves Guild.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • RoyJade
    RoyJade
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    Alway here for the better, thanks Asayre !
  • SoulAffliction
    Nice data....how does one figure out the ratio of your damage that is based on DoTs and Staff attacks if your on console? Thanks for any input!
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Um... try to find a parse on PC and use that as a guess? Alternative you can look at your rotation and add it up. So for a single target, my rotation is something along the lines of Boundless Storm - Liquid Lightning - Velocious Curse - Force Pulse*3 - Velocious Curse - Force Pulse*2 - Liquid Lightning - Velocious Curse - Forc Pulse*3 - Velocious Curse - Force Pulse*2. I would add up all the tooltip damage (without any CP assigned) and then just divide the DoT component over the total damage. I would just guess the Staff ratio to be 0.1.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Xeven
    Xeven
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    Question for you Asayre. In your Arithmagic Damage Formula, is it possible for Mitigation to drop below 0? Have you tested this?

    Edited by Xeven on February 19, 2016 10:08PM
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    @Asayre
    Anything geared for magic damage builds? Templars and magblades could benefit from that. This is useful for sorcs and dks, though. Thanks!
  • Xeven
    Xeven
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    @Autolycus

    It's the same for you because Elemental Expert includes magic damage in TG update. It's up to you to find your DOT ratio.

    Edited by Xeven on February 19, 2016 10:11PM
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Xeven, mitigation cannot go below 0. You will simply do the tooltip value.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Xeven wrote: »
    @Autolycus

    It's the same for you because Elemental Expert includes magic damage in TG update.

    Good point, thanks for letting me know. I was thinking more for right now, and moreso out of curiosity rather than necessity, since I'm pretty satisfied with where my CP allocation sits currently. Doesn't really matter in a couple weeks, as you mentioned.
  • Kas
    Kas
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    great, thanks a lot. however, i guess there may actually be builds with higher dot ratio, i.p. winterborn AoE setups where an additional prox det is also flagged as a dot (to avoid interaction with empower?) maybe you could extend the tables a bit. aynway, thanks a lot for this
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Kas, that is a great idea. I've decided to make the equation a bit more accessible with the loss of a tiny amount of accuracy. I've included a spreadsheet that will do this

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing

    On the first sheet you'll see a range of inputs including
    • Number of Champion Points
    • Critical Chance
    • Critical Modifier
      1. Defined as Critical Damage/Non-Crit Damage -1
    • Target Resistance
    • Target Level
    • Percentage Penetration
    • Flat Penetration
    • Elemental Ratio
    • DoT Ratio
    • Staff Ratio

    It will output the ideal CP distribution in Elemental Expert, Thaumathurge, Staff Expert, Elfborn and Spell Erosion. It does not take into account the Elfborn jump points in the calculation so if it suggest a non Elfborn jump point it will also display the nearest Elfborn jump points. Also all CP passives are ignored. This means that there may be situations where it will not recommend putting 30 points into the Apprentice first.

    How it works?
    It starts by assuming you have 0 in all 5 CP stars. It then calculates the following function
    34fbbb2fa63e4600fc57d33892aaed2d.png
    for an increase of 1 point in each star. It selects the optimum distribution then keeps going until it reaches your stated number of Champion Points. I had to use a continuous equation to model how the CP stars vary with points spent. The equation used can be seen in Sheet 3. Because a continuous equation was used some deviation from my previous discrete optimisation will be present. In addition, I could not include the impact of Elfborn jump points thus jump points are suggested at the end of the optimisation. While the previous discrete optimisation is probably better to model the jump points, I hope that this method of presenting the ideal mage CP distribution for magicka builds will be easier to use thus increasing it's accuracy as you can put in your own relevant values instead of looking for the closest table match.
    Edited by Asayre on February 23, 2016 2:28AM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Lafer
    Lafer
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    If i look at your previous tableau it used to say 46 point in elfborn for 1-2 dots and 21 point in spell erosion.
    Did the calculation change.
    Also i would like to know for the 8th boss in maelstrom what would be the optimal CP points if i don't use major breach?
    Is liquid ligthning concider and boundless storm.
    Is the burn debuff from an inferno staff or from force pulse would be concidered a dot?
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    I did make a few changes to the calculation to be able to make it spreadsheet'able but that said the results between the old table and the spreadsheet shouldn't be too far apart. I forgot to make a note of the target resistance of the old table so I'm unable to reproduce it exactly now =(. But I believe target resistance was set to 13k. If we use the following inputs for the spreadsheet
    b36c9188ef48f8d85a8abd079d4968fb
    The suggested CP distribution is 100 in Elemental Expert, 56 in Elfborn and 11 in Spell Erosion which is not too different from 100 in Elemental Expert, 46 in Elfborn and 21 in Spell Erosion.

    I don't know the resistance of the 8th boss in Maelstrom but I would guess 18k like most other bosses.

    Liquid lightning, boundless storm, burning debuff are all DoTs.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Kas
    Kas
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    the spreadsheet is incredible. thanks a lot! the amount of CP that would be well put into spell erosion is shockingly high if you enter values expected in pvp. that said, i guess it doesn't help against shields so that's only half the story
    Edited by Kas on February 24, 2016 12:52PM
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  • pretzl
    pretzl
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    @Asayre , when using your spreadsheet to calculate the CP distribution for a Magicka DK, will DoTs be at 0.5 or higher? I can't seem to figure it out properly, but it would seem DKs rely more on DoTs than anything, so the decimal should be higher.
    Regardless, it seems your sheet has such a low allocation of Thaumaturge points... At 0.5 and 0.5, it allocates 19 points into Thaumaturge. At 0.1 ele and 0.9 DoT, it allocates 56.
    As some Theorycrafters on TamrielFoundry already has discussed, DKs seem to want more than that or is that false?
    I still need to do some more testing but it's becoming more and more evident that the ideal setup is 0.4 ele and 0.6 DoT meaning 100 Ele Exp, 25 Thaum, 27 Elf and 15 Spell.

    But like I said, this needs more testing, but I'm eager to hear your thoughts!
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Yea, this spreadsheet is more useful for PvE encounters. I'm not that good with PvP theorycrafting but probably you want more points in Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge.

    I think the allocation makes sense at 0.5 Elemental and 0.5 DoT ratio as well as 0.1 Elemental and 0.9 DoT. Perhaps the naming of the ratios is a bit confusing. I assume that all of your damage is elemental but some of it is DoT based (and some of it is staff based). Perhaps a better name for Elemental might be "Non-DoT". You would expect a higher investment in Elemental Expert because it affects both Elemental and DoT. Only at 100% DoT would you expect equal investment.

    Anyway I decided to check the allocation at 0.5 Elemental and DoT, it recommends 100 in Elemental Expert and 19 in Thaumathurge. If I rewrote
    34fbbb2fa63e4600fc57d33892aaed2d.png
    for the stated ratio and assumed points in Spell Erosion and Elfborn are kept constant, it reduces to something like this
    e1717c4f23d5878ff02aad821239a96b.png
    If we evaluate the term in the brackets for 100 (25%) in Elemental Expert and 19 (7.8%) in Thaumathurge, we get
    47f10ea508d23031a775a1ce5c79818a.png
    If we evaluate it at 99 (24.8%) in Elemental Expert and 20 (8.1%) in Thaumathurge, we get
    63a960346637fbe87392dfc188facaaa.png
    So I think my allocation is working.

    I don't DK that much so I had a look at @asneakybanana magicka DK thread
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-magnus-destro-pve-dps-build/
    and look specifically at this parse
    http://i.imgur.com/f46YEbV.jpg
    From that parse, I would estimate DoT to be around 50% (Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, FOO, Burning, Standard and Blockade). I think those are the only DoTs.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • asneakybanana
    asneakybanana
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    Asayre wrote: »
    I don't DK that much so I had a look at @asneakybanana magicka DK thread
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-magnus-destro-pve-dps-build/
    and look specifically at this parse
    http://i.imgur.com/f46YEbV.jpg
    From that parse, I would estimate DoT to be around 50% (Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, FOO, Burning, Standard and Blockade). I think those are the only DoTs.

    I have a couple of screenshots from the pts and depending on the fight my dot damage has been up to like 70% with the new changes to blockade. That is usually my highest DPS ability. Once I get to live and can test out on something like serpent or mantikora to get a more stack and whack parse with not as much aoe. On single target I believe I'm around 40-50% dot dps pretty consistently.
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  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    What is resto staff damage? Is streak a dot or not?
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Steak is not a DoT. Restro light attacks are magical and not DoTs. Restro heavy attacks are magical and are DoTs. The spreadsheet does not account for restro heavy attacks but can easily be modified to do so.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Asayre wrote: »
    Steak is not a DoT. Restro light attacks are magical and not DoTs. Restro heavy attacks are magical and are DoTs. The spreadsheet does not account for restro heavy attacks but can easily be modified to do so.

    You sir, are awesome
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  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
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    What is resto staff damage? Is streak a dot or not?

    DOT = dmg over time

    Streak = instant dmg (non-DOT)
    resto light attack = instant dmg (non-DOT)

    resto heavy attack = dmg during the channel time (DOT)
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  • Xeven
    Xeven
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    On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

    Edited by Xeven on February 29, 2016 3:46PM
  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    Xeven wrote: »
    On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

    Put points in DoT dmg reduction?
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Ishammael wrote: »
    Xeven wrote: »
    On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

    Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

    Use shield to negate crit dmg?
  • Xeven
    Xeven
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    Ishammael wrote: »
    Xeven wrote: »
    On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

    Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

    I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

    That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

    Edited by Xeven on February 29, 2016 6:46PM
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