[PvE DPS] Ideal Mage CP distribution for stamina and magicka builds

Mulcibur

posthumecaver wrote: »

First of all thx or the awesome research before I was lost with the CPs and put points too many wrong things and with your input my damage increase a lot.

My main is a Sorc and I am only little bit confused with 'elfborn' it seems heavily investing in 'Elemental Defender' and 'Thermaxxx' is advantgeous mainly on DoT abilities which can be totally correct for DK and NB Magicka builds because they seem to be DoT heavy specs but Sorc has nice DoT abilities like Liquid Lightning, Boundless Storm and Wall of Elements but our major heavy hitters are Crytal Frag, Mage Wrath, Light Overload, shouldn't we invest more points to the ''Eflborn'?

Seen something similar. Think it's related to the DOT ratio you choose but not sure how the ratio works? @Asayre can you explain?

puffy99

Most Templar magicka skills are DoT based. Shouldn't the ratio be at least 2-1 for Therm or maybe even 3-1?
Spears, P Light, Flare, Sweeps, RO, etc.. I am a bit confused on how you arrive at the proper ratio with the spreadsheet, but it seems 90% of the time I have spears/sweeps, flare or RO with Aurora Jav for PvP

Asayre

@posthumecaver @Mulcibur @puffy99

I think all your questions are about the same thing. I don't really understand the underlying reason for your concern though. As far as I can understand it you feel that the amount invested into Thaumathurge/Elfborn is not appropriate. What are your ratios for Elemental/DoT/Staff are you using?

@puffy99
There are sort of two templar builds at the moment. One involves using Dark Flare and doesn't have as many DoTs and one using Puncturing Sweep which is practically all DoTs. It sounds like you're using the latter so you can use 0/1/0 for the Elemental/DoT/Staff ratio and the spreadsheet will suggest 1-1 for Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge.

puffy99

ok, I think I got it now. I will recalculate it. thanks!

posthumecaver

@Asayre I tried the modified the values doe Staff and DOT see how it effects the elfborn the problem is, lets I make 0.3 DoT (I expect that mean %30 DoT usage) and 0.7 Staff (which I expect to be %70 staff spell usage) (actually I don't understand what that means for the class spells like Crystal Frag/Mage Wrath they have nothing to do with Staff) spreadsheet advise me to invest to Staff Expert but never to Elfborn.

May be I don't understand how to use the spreadsheet.

Asayre

@posthumecaver 30% DoT does mean that 30% of your damage is based of DoTs. I don't know what rotation you're using but it sounds reasonable. 70% Staff is way too high! This ratio represents the damage from your light and heavy attacks (with a staff). It is typically between 0-20% depending on whether you light/medium weave.

But even with the ratio you mentioned, you should get some points into Elfborn. Can you paste an image of your inputs and outputs?

posthumecaver

@Asayre with above setup 0.3 Dot 0.7 Staff it puts 9 to elfborn and 18 to Staff that surprises me, I mean 9/18 ratio to CritDamage/StaffDamage.

I was just expecting for single target direct damage to crit damage to have more importance with my %67 crit chance.

but you say it is only for light/heavy attacks but how am I going to put into the equation the Crystal Frag/Force Pulse/Mage Wrath/Overload they are main source of my damage like %60 to %70.

Asayre

posthumecaver wrote: »

@Asayre with above setup 0.3 Dot 0.7 Staff it puts 9 to elfborn and 18 to Staff that surprises me, I mean 9/18 ratio to CritDamage/StaffDamage.

I was just expecting for single target direct damage to crit damage to have more importance with my %67 crit chance.

but you say it is only for light/heavy attacks but how am I going to put into the equation the Crystal Frag/Force Pulse/Mage Wrath/Overload they are main source of my damage like %60 to %70.

Do you have further reasoning for your expectation?

So in your parse you'll probably see that light/heavy attacks account for 0-20% of your damage. Put that into Staff. Elemental is for everything else that is not a DoT or a light/heavy staff attack and is calculated as 1-DoT-Staff. All the skills you listed will go into Elemental

Audioraincloud

Just wanting to double check, the buff to spell erosion carried over correct?

Asayre

Not sure you mean by carried over but yes Spell Erosion was buffed in Thieves Guild

Audioraincloud

you mentioned previously how it was only added within the pts, just wanting to make sure it still applies to what was released in the DLC. Thanks for the response!

kadar

Concerning the Stamina Spreadsheet: What is my weapon critical modifier? I play a Stamina Nightblade. Base is 0.5 + 0.1 from NB passive = 0.6? Any other modifiers I'm missing? I'm at work so I can't login and check!

I also use Trap Beast in PVE, so would that have an effect on my Critical Modifier as well (I can't find an up to date skill tooltip for the life of me...)

Instant

Your spreadsheet suggests putting points into spell erosion when i set target resistance to 0.
Correct me if im wrong but I think that doesnt make any sense.

Asayre

@The_Outsider so the base weapon crit modifier is 0.5. Add 0.1 for Nightblade/Templar. Add 0.12 for Trap Beast. Add 0.12*Divines if using Shadow (up to 0.183 with 7 divines)

@Instant I did not set a lower bound for mitigation of 0. I added an extra cell to tell you if you put your mitigation to 0 but it won't change the calculation. I feel it's an additional confusing element. Oh well.

kadar

@Asayre

That makes about 0.84 w/ Shadow.

Trashyratchet

Hey @Asayre, this is some intense work, and much appreciated. I have an issue that I hope you may have a suggestion on. Console and the inability to do a parse. I have a Magicka DK, Templar, and NB that I would really love to you the spread sheet on, but really have no place to start on knowing where to land my ratios. I know the DK would use a ton of DoT, but also Flame with very, very low staff. The Templar typically runs the ranged Dark flare build. The NB uses weaves with little DoT. Do you have any suggestions for us on console to get somewhat close based on typical uses of these characters? I would assume that most of us that have been playing a ton of high end content have pretty similar rotations and builds. I have max CP so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated to get the most out of them. Thanks again.

Asayre

@Trashyratchet I'm not very familiar with a Dark Flare templar build or a NB with very few DoTs. Have you taken a look at tamrielfoundry.com/forums ? There are several up to date guides that will give you good suggestions for CP distribution. For magicka DK,

asneakybanana wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I don't DK that much so I had a look at @asneakybanana magicka DK thread
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-magnus-destro-pve-dps-build/
and look specifically at this parse
http://i.imgur.com/f46YEbV.jpg
From that parse, I would estimate DoT to be around 50% (Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Eruption, FOO, Burning, Standard and Blockade). I think those are the only DoTs.

I have a couple of screenshots from the pts and depending on the fight my dot damage has been up to like 70% with the new changes to blockade. That is usually my highest DPS ability. Once I get to live and can test out on something like serpent or mantikora to get a more stack and whack parse with not as much aoe. On single target I believe I'm around 40-50% dot dps pretty consistently.

SmalltalkJava

Mulcibur wrote: »

mertusta wrote: »

Mulcibur wrote: »

Does the Percentage Penetration increase when using 2 nirn compared to 1? Duel wield vs staff

Nope, they're equal. Staff has %18, one dual wield has %9, two dual wield %18. But you will get more spell damage from duel wield. (Percentages are for v16 legendary by the way.)

Thanks. Aware of the spell damage. Was just wondering about the penetration. If only sorc had a spammable aoe other than destro I wouldn't need to worry about a staff in PVP anymore. Can only duel wield when I solo.

The only non destro spammable aoe sorcs have is crystal blast. And I'm probably the only one to actually use it. Of course this means I forego force pulse and frags and some mobility. And reflect dks kick my butt.
What I gain is long range spam every second that knocks down my main target. I need to test more but popping power surge, liquid lightening, and spamming crystal blast is my rotation. As a result I focus on one thing only. Making crystal blast hit as hard as I can. even using curse seems to lower my dps significantly, as that insta cast and built in global ability inter cast delay causes my blast spam to pause. My curse hits for less than blast does. I need to relook at my hits but I hit for 22k main target blast crits pve. In pvp I do use curse as cast time is harder to keep operating smoothly.

DUTCH_REAPER

Mind blowing and invaluable.

Thank you.

llllADBllll

Hi there @Asayre,

This is quite simply the most useful thing I've ever seen on the forums but I feel I'm struggling with my inputs for VMA

I run TBS 6xDivines and 1 Infused on my Magplar.

I have 2265 SD and 61.4% crit with a Nirnhoned and a Precise Sword

I run Sweeps Radiant and Blazing Spear as my DoT's and I am struggling with the crit modifier and the Ratios.

I have always felt I get more damage from Thaumaturge but I could be mistaken.

My stats in the boxes are as follows


Number of Champion Points 167
Spell Critical Chance 0.614
Spell Critical multiplier 0.67
Target Resistance 18000
Target Level 66
Percentage Penetration 0.09
Flat Penetration 4984

I have removed all CP for this calculation and no major or minor sorcery is this correct? I Dont really understand without a parse what my ratios are either.

Sorry if this confuses you but I hope you can help

Thanks in advance.

Junkogen

Asayre wrote: »

Please refer to http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2718988/#Comment_2718988

A link to the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing

The ideal Mage CP distribution for magicka builds can be easily calculated by maximising the following function



I've done this at 501 CP for two common critical chances with Julianos for a range of Elemental, DoT and Staff Ratio. In order to use the results you need to determine the ratio of your damage that is based on DoTs and Staff attacks. I've assumed that 100% of you damage falls under Elemental. Once you know the DoT and Staff ratio simply look up the corresponding row and column in the table below and read off the ideal champion point distribution.

EE = Elemental Expert
T = Thaumathurge
S = Staff Expert
Elf = Elfborn
SE = Spell Erosion





Hope the table is reasonably understandable and helps everyone with optimising champion points!

Edit: This applies for a base critical modifier of 0.5 i.e. for Sorcerers and Dragonknights.

For those of us who are bad at reading tables, so what is the ideal CP distribution?

Silver_Strider

With the DB update, is there any reason a Stamina DK or NB should invest into Elemental Expert now?
The majority of our stamina moves have been switched to poison/disease/physical now so really what does elemental expert boost now for us?

Edit: Yes, I'm aware this spreadsheet was made for the TG update.

Destruent

Nothing....you can ignore elemental expert as a stambuild with the next dlc.

Silver_Strider

Destruent wrote: »

Nothing....you can ignore elemental expert as a stambuild with the next dlc.

Awesome, I got 12 more CP to mess around with then.

Rylana

Xeven wrote: »

This is assuming 65~80% crit. Spell Erosion holds much more value when your crit rate is ~32%. (No crit gear.)

The OP has a very PvE centered point of view. For any "low crit" strictly PvP guys looking at this, your Spell Erosion/Elfborn ratio will be different.

Hate to agree with Xeven here, but I have to. These ratios are absolutely horrid for PvP gameplay.

Clarification - critical chance is very very bad in PvP due to the prevalence of Impenetrable statted armor and damage shields. Most damage dealers run spell power/penetration builds with base crit values around 30.

This means maximizing the penetration power (Spell Erosion) and increasing the raw damage of magic (Ele Expert) are the two most important stars for Magicka based players in PvP (except some Templars and DKs who can benefit from Thaumaturge). Elfborn is mostly useless unless youre a healer.

Ideally Spell Erosion would be maxed with 5+LA, a sharpened or nirn weapon, with the appropriate mundus stone. Even then, penetration is more limited than ever before, so you have to max out what you can get. Youll never kill a HA/Impen/Breton with magicka damage without maxed pen, zero chance.

Typical Ranged Caster split would be 100 SE, 50 EE, with rest of points into T or even shattering blows for fights vs shield stackers. You could go 100EE 50SE for LA/MA targets, but youll struggle hard against someone with armor buffs or breton master race.

100 SE/67 EE is also really strong for PvP, the rest just isnt necessary unless one is a niche build templar jabber or DK dotspammer.

For stam builds its 100 Piercing 67 Mighty (or vice versa) or the similar spread for Thauma/Shatter for Stam DK dotters/shieldbreakers or templar jabbers.


In any case, some points in blessed are good for PvP no matter the class and spec, but optional.