Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

smacx250

Erraln wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Why do people keep saying hardened Ward is a 20k sheild?

It's on average 9k. for someone with 36k Magika and 800 or less regen with 100 points in bastion it's gonna be like 12k.

You're correct inside Cyrodiil, but remember that not everyone is talking about pvp. 36k Magic, 100 bastion, PvE shield:

I think that's the first time I've heard a complaint about hardened in PvE. With a good group is that the best use of resource allocation? If solo, who cares (only solo leaderboard is class specific)? But that is a question, as my main sorc is solo, and I don't compete in vMSA.

SmalltalkJava

Yay! They made wards on pets refreshable in the last pts patch!

Xeven

SmalltalkJava wrote: »

Yay! They made wards on pets refreshable in the last pts patch!

Yay!

Jar_Ek

Okay so are pets now viable? For pve solo, pve group and PvP? For stamina and magicka?
I would say not.

Pets still lack enough of a punch to be useful in PVP - esp as the scamp is now a DoT rather than a burst damage effect.
Pets are still not battle levelled in PVP making them really vulnerable / weak.
Pets don't gain from cps
Pets are still weak for stamina as they don't scale for stamina.
Pets are still a toggle

They should now be okay for solo and pve group if built around - for max magicka builds only.

CP5

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Okay so are pets now viable? For pve solo, pve group and PvP? For stamina and magicka?
I would say not.

Pets still lack enough of a punch to be useful in PVP - esp as the scamp is now a DoT rather than a burst damage effect.
Pets are still not battle levelled in PVP making them really vulnerable / weak.
Pets don't gain from cps
Pets are still weak for stamina as they don't scale for stamina.
Pets are still a toggle

They should now be okay for solo and pve group if built around - for max magicka builds only.

I think i've seen pets in pvp labeled as v15 mobs in bwb so they may have battle leveling, but not battle spirit.

Erock25

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Okay so are pets now viable? For pve solo, pve group and PvP? For stamina and magicka?
I would say not.

Pets still lack enough of a punch to be useful in PVP - esp as the scamp is now a DoT rather than a burst damage effect.
Pets are still not battle levelled in PVP making them really vulnerable / weak.
Pets don't gain from cps
Pets are still weak for stamina as they don't scale for stamina.
Pets are still a toggle

They should now be okay for solo and pve group if built around - for max magicka builds only.

@Jar_Ek It is obvious ZOS is really forcing the issue on pets and in my opinion, pets scaling from CP is absolutely 100% necessary. It is ridiculous to exclude them from the power creep as they will constantly need to be rebalanced. Also a stam morph pet (clannfear) is a must AND it has to move a lot faster than it already does and hit harder.

Dyride

Proposed change for Unstable Clannfear morph:

Costs Magicka, damage scales with health. Make the damage coefficient not a loss at 15-16k health for magicka sorcs. Stamina sorcs typically have slightly higher health, so slightly more damage but not huge.

Since the Twilight now heals, change the Clannfear to to restore 15% of your max stam and health on special ability activation.

Health stacking is typically not optimal for sorc tanks but this could open up build possibilities for tanking.

Xeven

Why do you guys continue to talk about pets in PvP as if they will ever be viable?

Make them scale with CP.
Give one a stam morph.
Make them break free.
Make them faster.
Make them smarter.
Give them battle spirit.

ZOS will never do all of that, and even if they did...

They're still toggles that will not justify their spot over other useful abilities.
Your overall survivability will be lower because bars full of toggles.
They still have a ridiculous cast time.
They'll never hit hard enough or apply enough pressure.
They'll never gap close.
They'll never deal with LOS or terrain well. Show me a pet that can deal with Alessia bridge shenanigans.
They do not burst.
They will still melt when focused.
They scream focus me, I'm an idiot.

Please just stop shitting in this thread with this garbage. Talk about stuff that actually helps us.

Jar_Ek

@Dyride Works for me and would probably be very good for a stamina sorcerer tank.

olsborg

Xeven wrote: »

Why do you guys continue to talk about pets in PvP as if they will ever be viable?

Make them scale with CP.
Give one a stam morph.
Make them break free.
Make them faster.
Make them smarter.
Give them battle spirit.

ZOS will never do all of that, and even if they did...

They're still toggles that will not justify their spot over other useful abilities.
Your overall survivability will be lower because bars full of toggles.
They still have a ridiculous cast time.
They'll never hit hard enough or apply enough pressure.
They'll never gap close.
They'll never deal with LOS or terrain well. Show me a pet that can deal with Alessia bridge shenanigans.
They do not burst.
They will still melt when focused.
They scream focus me, I'm an idiot.

Please just stop shitting in this thread with this garbage. Talk about stuff that actually helps us.

I understand your pessimism and completely agree with it...sadly.

Erock25

Xeven wrote: »

Why do you guys continue to talk about pets in PvP as if they will ever be viable?

Make them scale with CP.
Give one a stam morph.
Make them break free.
Make them faster.
Make them smarter.
Give them battle spirit.

ZOS will never do all of that, and even if they did...

They're still toggles that will not justify their spot over other useful abilities.
Your overall survivability will be lower because bars full of toggles.
They still have a ridiculous cast time.
They'll never hit hard enough or apply enough pressure.
They'll never gap close.
They'll never deal with LOS or terrain well. Show me a pet that can deal with Alessia bridge shenanigans.
They do not burst.
They will still melt when focused.
They scream focus me, I'm an idiot.

Please just stop shitting in this thread with this garbage. Talk about stuff that actually helps us.

I haven't spent more than 5 minutes in PVP with pets, but certain people seem to do well. Bolterity had some nasty videos but like all other 1vX vids, it was against weak players. Maybe they aren't viable in good groups or against good opponents, but at least making some of the changes you list will give them a better chance. I think scaling with CP, a stamina morph, break free, and faster (for melee pets) is definitely something ZOS has to do. Why wouldn't they do it? They want pets to happen so they really should make some common sense changes.

olsborg

They arent viable in highend pvp because they die in a split second and you cant ever find the time to recast them as long as they have a 1.5 second cast time. Simple truth. VS average and lower players, sure, but not when youre fighting high end pvpers, you will get interrupted at every turn.

Dyride

.

Xeven

Top end wrecking blows have a 16-17k tooltip with 100 Mighty. If it's the second wrecking blow, it's empowered. 16k becomes 19k. If they put their last 67 CP into Shattering Blows, that's another 16%, now were looking at a 21.7k wrecking blow.

Half that with battle spirit and were looking at 11k wrecking blows.

I am worried gentlemen. Our defenses do not scale well with damage anymore, and the nerf sorc battle cry is stronger than ever.

We're always a fraction of a second away from death, and our very survival hinges on the ward spam that everyone hates so much.

If we are intended to be glass cannons, then I am fine with that, but give me the cannon. A big ass *** cannon.

Thelon

Xeven wrote: »

Please just stop shitting in this thread with this garbage.

Soneca798

*repeated comment delete plz*

Soneca798

@Xeven you're absolutely right. As long as zos tries to push pets on sorcs the actual important stuff is less likely to be addressed, like stam sorc balancing and such (admittedly biased, but the point has been made)

RinaldoGandolphi

I'll tell ZOS the same thing i told them in the beta back in 2014:

Damage shields are a bad idea and are/will be impossible to balance. They will either be useless(like the DK sheild in PVP) or OP like the Sorc's current Hardened Ward, in between simply isn't possible.

When you factor the cost to cast Hardened Ward vs how much more increase to max health it gives, the cost per point is just laughably absurd, there is good reason why its spammed so heavily.

that being said, Sorcs have nothing else right now so there really isn't any other choice in the way the game currently is.

I advocated that damage shields be removed and replaced with damage reductions. Such as Hardened Ward causing the caster to take 37% less damage from all sources for X seconds. your still hitting their health, just doing less damage, and preventing the Sorc from being insta-killed. The mechanics to do this are already in the game, the Dragonknight Standard, The Templar Empowering Sweep, and the Templar Nova already have the damage reduction mechanic. It wouldn't be hard to change.

However in order to do this and actually fix it right these things would have to be done:

1. Bolt Escape would have to have its cost penalty and out of combat magic regen penalty completely removed.
2. Steak would have to go back to its uncapped AOE status and also go back to being a Disorient instead of a stun(ignores block)
3. Streak would have to be capable of building Ultimate.
4. Gap Closers no longer stun/silence/root/snare a person in place.
5. The teleport range on Bolt Escape would have to be increased by 3 meters.
6. The nerf to Major Expedition would have to be removed.

What this does is...it makes the Sorc very very squishy.....but it also makes him very very mobile....a total glass cannon class./

I rolled Sorc because i wanted to play the squishy TES caster class, very mobile, hits very hard, but squishy as all can be.....the class was that at launch up until about 1.6 or there bouts.

In otherwords nerf the shields and buff the mobility options. Allow the Sorc to be a glass cannon that moves like lighting but is very squishy. The QQ of course will never end, because they will say catching a Sorc is impossible, i'll retort with Zurin Arctus and the like saying...its very hard to catch a crafty mage....do you think guys like Savos Aren, Mannimarco, Zurin Arctus, etc ever rose to legendary heights by being easy to catch and stab with a sword?

Make magic Sorcs the mobility hard hitting things lore says they are, but make them fold like a acordian the minute someone even touches them with a blade and you got the class fixed.....yes it will require becoming a master at kiting to master the class, but that sounds far more fun to me then spamming Wards, standing in Mines and DPS whatever it is your doing...

i'd much rather blink without penalty using speed to avoid damage and dance around the battlefield and fight and know i could be 1 shot by an archer at anytime and be required to keep my head on a swivel then to spam shields in the current cheese we have right now.

Change Ward to a Damage Reduction, give me back the Streak and Mobility options we had a launch and the class is far more fun to play and solves the Wrecking Blow issues on its own as i'll simply Disoreint the WB spammer everytime he winds up, who needs Sheilds.....i'll out kite him with ease beating him with raw speed over power.....until then, my Sorc is primarily a dungeon runner and the occassional crafter...the damage sheild meta and the continue mobility nerfs make the class no fun to play anymore in Cyrodiil.....if only folks had played Sorc at launch...THAT SORC minus Hardened Ward is the Mage class that has existed in TES since atleast Daggerfall......its a shame i'll never get to play that spec again in ESO

Jar_Ek

@RinaldoGandolphi Hmm would the mitigation scale with magicka? If not stamina sorcerers could / would become monsters with medium armour + boundless (5k) + hardened ward mitigation. Anyway interesting idea - but I doubt zos will take that direction at this point.

Xeven

We would also need a heal akin to Vigor. Add that, and I'm behind you.

Tanking with health is underrated. It's stronger that HW if you know what you're doing.

I'll run 80% crit resists on top of buffed armor resists under my 20% damage reducing hardened ward - on top of CP resists.

The tears would be fat, salty, and abundant.

EDIT:
This will never happen. Shields are forever going to be our thing.

Emma_Overload

@RinaldoGandolphi, what you're suggesting might be fine up in Cyrodiil, but it won't work in the IC sewers. So many of the connecting passageways between rooms are crippled with "S" curves, you won't be using Bolt Escape to evade enemies when the fight turns sour. Combine this with the fact that there are densely packed mobs everywhere in the sewers, and you will find that Bolt Escape will totally fail as a principal defensive mechanism for Sorcs.

Xeven

So turn the corner first and aim your streaks better?

What is your point we still want streak to be useful for mobility again.

Cathexis

Hey how about adding to the list making pets also scale off stamina if it is higher instead of making them only useful to mag builds. That'd be super, thanks.

Khaos_Bane

Get rid of pets entirely please ! They are just dumb in nearly every mmo I have played.

Thelon

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Get rid of pets entirely please ! They are just dumb in nearly every mmo I have played.

Xeven

Thelon, you really dont have any ground to stand on. They're suboptimal in PvE too.

If you want to be the "Unholy Herdsman" of barny the dinosaur, flappy the bird, and shmeagle the scamp, while simultaneously gimping yourself and your group, have fun with it.

Most sorcs don't, and rightfully so. We want to shoot flames from our fingertips and lightning bolts from our ass.

CP5

Xeven wrote: »

Thelon, you really dont have any ground to stand on. They're suboptimal in PvE too.

If you want to be the "Unholy Herdsman" of barny the dinosaur, flappy the bird, and shmeagle the scamp, while simultaneously gimping yourself and your group, have fun with it.

Most sorcs don't, and rightfully so. We want to shoot flames from our fingertips and lightning bolts from our ass.

1/3 of the reasons I picked to roll a sorc originally was for the clannfear. It is a unique part of the class that should be a strong choice for those who want it without those who don't want it being gimped. But if it isn't already clear DK's have the 'flames from our fingertips' part of that image.

Mush55

Give sorcs a choice of useing pets if you like that sort of thing , or spec into a fire or ice skill line .

I know what I would choose..

Ffastyl

There was a good bit of insight made in the Templar thread and given not everyone would read it, I am reposting it here for it provides insight into the balancing issues of all classes.

There are several basic tools every class should have available from class abilities. These are Major Resolve, Major Ward, Major Mending, Major Evasion, Major Defile, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Minor Maim, Major Breach and Major Fracture. Players can choose any combination of weapon and class abilities to attain these de/buffs for use, including combinations with only weapon abilities and only class abilities.

Templars have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Mending
• Major Defile

Dragonknights have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Mending
• Major Defile
• Major Fracture
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery
• Minor Maim

Nightblades have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Evasion
• Major Defile
• Major Fracture
• Major Breach
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery
• Minor Maim
• Major Vitality

Sorcerers have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery

While Major Defile is accessible to three classes, it's gated behind an ultimate for 2 and cast time for Templars. For Nightblades, it is okay to leave Major Defile behind the ultimate because it costs 50, low enough to be considered a regular ability. Dragonknights' Major Defile is gated behind the Standard, their most expensive ultimate and hardest to keep enemies in without help. Templars require the Dark Flare morph of Sun Flare for Major Defile. For once, Templars are ahead of the other classes.

Though as we can see, Templar and Sorcerer are severely lacking in the basic toolset, leading to very few builds for each class that are successful. Nightblades almost have the entire toolset, possessing Major Vitality instead of Major Mending, and are the most balanced and versatile class because of it. Dragonknights are a close second as they are missing several basic tools but still possess double the tools of Templar and Sorcerer.

Granting the functionally same abilities to each class to achieve the same de/buffs is homogenization that lessens class identity. But granting these de/buffs through effectively different abilities is homogenization that retains class identity. Each of these classes has access to Major Ward and Major Resolve, but do the abilities that grant these buffs feel the same for each class? Templar has a rune that increases recovery; Dragonknight has a spiked shell that deals counter damage; Nightblade has a passive that activates when a skill line is used; Sorcerer has a lightning form that increases mobility and deals area damage. These all grant the same buffs, Major Resolve and Major Ward, and go about them in effectively different ways -- homogenization that retains class identity.

ToRelax

Ffastyl wrote: »

There was a good bit of insight made in the Templar thread and given not everyone would read it, I am reposting it here for it provides insight into the balancing issues of all classes.

There are several basic tools every class should have available from class abilities. These are Major Resolve, Major Ward, Major Mending, Major Evasion, Major Defile, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Minor Maim, Major Breach and Major Fracture. Players can choose any combination of weapon and class abilities to attain these de/buffs for use, including combinations with only weapon abilities and only class abilities.

Templars have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Mending
• Major Defile

Dragonknights have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Mending
• Major Defile
• Major Fracture
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery
• Minor Maim

Nightblades have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Evasion
• Major Defile
• Major Fracture
• Major Breach
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery
• Minor Maim
• Major Vitality

Sorcerers have:

• Major Resolve
• Major Ward
• Major Brutality
• Major Sorcery

While Major Defile is accessible to three classes, it's gated behind an ultimate for 2 and cast time for Templars. For Nightblades, it is okay to leave Major Defile behind the ultimate because it costs 50, low enough to be considered a regular ability. Dragonknights' Major Defile is gated behind the Standard, their most expensive ultimate and hardest to keep enemies in without help. Templars require the Dark Flare morph of Sun Flare for Major Defile. For once, Templars are ahead of the other classes.

Though as we can see, Templar and Sorcerer are severely lacking in the basic toolset, leading to very few builds for each class that are successful. Nightblades almost have the entire toolset, possessing Major Vitality instead of Major Mending, and are the most balanced and versatile class because of it. Dragonknights are a close second as they are missing several basic tools but still possess double the tools of Templar and Sorcerer.

Granting the functionally same abilities to each class to achieve the same de/buffs is homogenization that lessens class identity. But granting these de/buffs through effectively different abilities is homogenization that retains class identity. Each of these classes has access to Major Ward and Major Resolve, but do the abilities that grant these buffs feel the same for each class? Templar has a rune that increases recovery; Dragonknight has a spiked shell that deals counter damage; Nightblade has a passive that activates when a skill line is used; Sorcerer has a lightning form that increases mobility and deals area damage. These all grant the same buffs, Major Resolve and Major Ward, and go about them in effectively different ways -- homogenization that retains class identity.

Well I think at least Major Mending should not be accessible to every class because it effectively works as a buff for non class heals. Maybe a DK healing better with BoR than a Sorc isn't so bad.