Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer. Please let us know how you feel about the changes we made to this class, if you ran into any bugs, and any other feedback you'd like to give.

RoyJade

So, someone in the PTS can test if pets abilities have a cooldown ?

TheLaw

More nerfs (via champ points), no changes for stam sorcs. As usual, a disappointing patch.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517

Why are they making Sorc pets require MORE micro-managing? If I am reading this right, you have to press them again to trigger their attack?

Nahz

@ZOS_GinaBruno,

Will the bug which is preventing the pets from going into stealth going to be fixed with this patch?

Kwivur

You guys are worried about pets? lol.. The new sets available are really looking like it's the year of the sorc.

found1779

Make more of the abilities morph to stamina based yall gave sorcerers more magicka stuff but no stamina morphs for stamina sorcerers

Kerioko

Stam Sorc PVE feedback:

- given the new changes to Thaumaturge and the fact that rapid strikes is considered a dot, a Bow/DW Dot stam build is more powerful than a 2H wrecking blow build. This is great for stam DK and Temp, but stam sorcs are still going to be stuck using wrecking blow given that rapid strikes as a main spam will not proc crit surge. Stam sorc is already behind in competitive dps, this will put us even more behind.
- I like the changes to pets, it would be nice if at least one morph of one pet was useful to a stam build to make sets like the hunt leader somewhat useful. It would be nice if the pet abilities were based on highest stat and not just magicka.
- Overload needs some major work in how it is calculated based on weapon dmg and stam. I can average 30K+ overload on magicka sorc, but only 15K overload on stamina with roughly the same dmg and stats (3K weapon/spell dmg and 40K stamina/magicka).

Aside from that, as FENGRUSH stated: "No changes to stam sorc worth testing!"

Kerioko

RoyJade wrote: »

So, someone in the PTS can test if pets abilities have a cooldown ?

No cooldown, so its just like adding another skill to your rotation that you have to hit, on top of the initial summon!

NativeJoe

Lets talk pet sorcs. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Magicka stack... the damage difference inbetween going from a magicka stacked sorc of 53k mana and a spell damage stack is massive. made even more massive by the change to the pet abilities. 7 k attacks from the twilight by expending mana are *okay*, but the volitile familar now does like 1k damage a second in pvp when I toggle it. the magicka cast cost vs damage is abysmal.

5k over 4 second pvp damage for 2.4k magick (volitile familar)
vs
12k instant pvp damage for 2.4k magick (crystal frags)

Currently it is

12k instant for volitile familar

12k instant for crystal frags

Magicka based sorcs just cannot be viable with this kind of nerfing.

Magicka stacked sorcs Are already an endangered species. There is an entire skill tree going unused by 99% of sorcs out there (besides the ward).
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Okay, just ran some tests on pts vs live.

53k mana pet sorc with +50% more pet damage slotted and used + all summonable pets and their dps abilities and ult atronoch. Decked out, all gold gear. 100k hp targets on atronochs at shadas tear wayshrine in craglorn.

Single target
Live= 12-14k damage per second over 45 seconds

PTS= 8-11k dps over 55 seconds

Spell power stack: 25,704 over 7 seconds

Multi Target
live: 15-26k over 30 seconds

PTS: 9-13k over 50 seconds

Spell power stack without ultimate: 38, 704 over 9 seconds


The result is easy to see.... DO NOT RUN PETS. they have been nerfed to the ground. and the disparity of damage output between a magickal stacked pure pet build, and a spell power stacked build has NEVER been higher then it is on pts. Pet builds on pts have lost all their burst damage, and on-demand utility stun for pvp, and pve they have never been worse... the dps is so incredibly low the most they can hope to do is Tank. The curse for the pet damage is no wear near enough damage to justify the usage of it because the pets do so little dps. Point and fact +50% more damage sounds nice, but it really amounts to about 1.5k dps increase. which you would get from slotting just about anything else under the sun.

Not trying to come off as harsh, but I get the feeling this was meant to be a buff...when it isn't one. when it comes down to the numbers and utility game, it's actually another nerf for a class/skill line that hasn't had any supporting gear specifically for it since vr 12.
**********************************************************************************


If you want pets to be considered viable, we need some Damage/utility here. and ALOT more of it.
A magicka stacked sorc in the current meta pushing things to the max can do 14k dps.
After this patch goes live, the best I can do is 8k with none of the burst the current meta provides. Which is something a spell power build can do just weaving heavy and light attacks x.x

I don't know what you guys are trying to do... Magicka stacked sorcs pre-DLC had sustain and burst, but that was ended with the shield breaker set and everyone having vigor/templar burst heals that can instant cast out heal overload x.x So in pve we where considered somewhat viable till this new DLC goes live. Your going to do a reduction in damage out put of 43% on pet sorcs. a class of build that is already suffering from lack of gear support (since vr 12) and dps.

Pets take up a skill slot. pets need a debuff on their target to do decent damage. pets need to be able to "catch" up to their prey.

What do pet sorcs need?
Supporting gear that stacks magicka, yet is useless to spell power stackers to distinguish the builds further.
(Necropotence was a great example of this, but it came with horrible traits, was nerfed, and nothing like it has been released.)
More damage. How much more? ALOT MORE. average dungeon builds are doing 18k dps or so not even pushing it to the absolute min max. Great builds are doing 26-35k dps. Pet builds simply cannot compete with even a mediocre build in this department. u cannot Cancle animation pet attacks and half the time they don't listen to what you say.
We need a UI for behavior, and possibly an AURA around the respective pets target so we can change their focus and act more intelligently with them.
Pet speed needs to be increased so they can actually catch up to their targets.(especially when it comes to summon sets)
Pet damage needs to be based off your highest stat so even stamina builds could use them. (and the damage off the monster helm pet summon and armor set pet summon)

In the short term, one solution would be to increase their damage by the amount of "collective" stats. IE stamina, magicka, and health added together. That may bring pet sorcs to some recognizable position.

Another solution would be to make it so any buff applied to the sorc would also be applied to the pet. Defensive rune, Boundless Storm, Crit surge, and other buffs applied by sets and other classes.

or both. Pet sorcs havn't been over powered, atleast not in my memory...ever. So go out on a limb here and change some numbers and see what happens. Remember in pvp pets can be stunned basically forever, so it's not like every class doesn't have a counter to it.

Bugs:
On another note Overload Locking up isn't great for this class as a whole.
Pets don't stealth properly.
Pets will act very aggressively to various mobs such as the sweepers in imperial sewers. IE break stealth to go after them, ignore mobs they are currently attacking to change target to the nearest sweeper etc
Pets get randomly lost (riding from point a to point b and fighting a mob I've noticed they simply don't show up... very troublesome, especially if this happens in cyrodil), or cannot do damage to mobs. (commonly encountered in orsinium)
Locking up of skills in general (solution is to hit esc, block, switch bars, drink potion etc)
Siege randomly decides it doesn't want to let it be used by you. dunno if this is sorc specific.
Channeled Heavy Attacks (Restoration Staff, Lightning Staff): The channeled heavy attacks of those weapons are now blockable and dodgable. This was not mentioned in any Patch Notes and might be a bug.
Velocious Curse (Sorcerer): This skill, although not a DoT effect, does not procc Surge (Sorcerer). This ability sometimes does not fire especially if you switch weapons and use skills on your second bar.
Magicka Detonation (Assault): This skill, although not a DoT effect, does not procc Surge (Sorcerer).
Bolt Escape (Sorcerer): Prior to 1.7 forward momentum was maintained after using bolt escape. After 1.7 all forward moment is lost when the bolt escape animation is complete and you are forced to a complete stop as if you've hit an invisible brick wall.
Power Overload (Sorcerer): This morph is supposed to deal 3% more damage but instead does 3% less damage. Nice. In general quick spamming of Overload Lightattacks sometimes get you stuck in doing Overload Heavy Attacks (this applies to both morphs).
Thundering Presence (Sorcerer): This skill does not procc Ravager although it should when damaging enemies in melee range. This skill was bugged on PTS in a way that it was proccing Ravager even when not hitting any mobs with it. I reported that issue and got a reply that they are fixing it. Seems they just made it so it doesn't procc Ravager at all.
Daedric Mines (Sorcerer): Daedric Mines don't proc the heal from Power/Critical Surge (Sorcerer) when they crit. Allegedly that's because somehow they are considered dots when they clearly aren't.
Pets don't respond sometimes.

Dyride

Yeah I have to agree with Ezareth. I fail to see what kind of damage a magicka Sorc can do against a magicka DK or dedicated SnB user except Velocious Curse+Inevitable Det.

I think I'll also be moving on from Stam Sorc since it seems my Stamplar can get Major Mending+Minor Vitality+Major Ward/Resolve+Minor Protection using Restoring Focus which will give some monster Vigor+Rally heals. Crit surge is less and less reliable especially since people can spec into physical resistance more easily now.

To me it looks like DKs got significant buffs, Magicka NBs got buffed aside from cloak, Stam Nightblades got nerfed, Templar's healing is slightly nerfed but overal okay and better for Stamplars. Sorcs got left with nothing interesting.

Huggalump

Crystal Blast (Crystal Shard morph): Increased the secondary splash damage of this morph by 25%.

Is this the stam sorc surprise promised months ago?

After so much talk in the community about all the good a stam morph of Crystal Shard could do, I guess this shows what ZOS thinks about it.

I understand the need for class diversity. Templars heal, dks don't die, NB stealths, sorc have mobility.... but certainly it's not a good idea to have classes that can and can't do damage, right? I sure wish I had one single damage ability I could use as a stam sorc so I'm not virtually ignoring my class.

CP5

The pet changes are, good, ish, i'll say. Its amazing that the pets have health regen, and that the twilight doesn't have to kill itself to heal you, and I can get used to the pet skill use. But for the sake of sanity make pets stealth properly. If you can't unsummon them you would need to go into your skills menu to remove them EVERY time you try to sneak. That's a no, automatic. Also I feel the clannfear's heal is more expensive than the clannfear summoning on live but that could just be me.

Also there are so many areas that I feel that are being ignored for the class. Negate is still, meh, at best. Crystal blast *may be worth looking at but so far many sorc builds almost require magicka stacking like crazy. Currently so many skills need large magicka pools to be effective or frequently used that on a whole the class is shoehorned into that corner.

Also, how did the storm calling skill tree miss out on a balance pass?

exiledtyrant

The pet changes seem really good so far. Since the pets aren't consumed with their buffed enough regen should give some very spammable heals.Looks to be a lot more hybrid friendly options. The heals are a lot better than what dark exchange was putting out. I'll have to roll some hybrid templates to get a real grasp on the synergy. Not having to go crit for healing is also a big plus. Daedric tomb + whirldwind is also pretty fun. The damage is so much more reliable now.

SmalltalkJava

Combining cp elemental and magic damage is brilliant. Pure and simple.

Having heal trigger on both pets is good. One based off of player magica the other off of player health. Good idea. You may want to make one scale off of stamina also

Pet bug where they don't stealth is still game hurting. Especially now that the pets take longer to summon.

SmalltalkJava

Forgot to add daedric tomb is a good change. Sorcs needed another area denial. This will give me one more to use.

LOVE THE CRYSTAL BLAST CHANGE!!!!! its one if my favorite spells, and now its even better! Long range wrecking blow ftw!

Joy_Division

I have to say I am disappointed.

I have always disliked that my PVE DPS was dependent on stacking toggles and spamming Overload and ... I still see I have to use Overload, slot Bound Aegis. This is the one class where other members of the fraternity can immediately say "you're doing it wrong" and prove they are correct by posting a DPS score that is +10K yours.

Bound Aegis is such a terribly designed ability. I just turn it on, can't see the armor I spent hours dying, and it's just free damage. And I HAVE to use it because I lose too much damage if I don't. It eats two slots and kills build variety, to say nothing of "play as you want." Just delete this skill and give Stam sorcs something that they been begging for over a year.

I also still have no AOE DPS ultimate .... or any ultimate aside from Overload. I don't know who is giving you sorcerer feedback, but storm atronach is noncompetitive in PVE and an utter waste of 200 ultimate in PvP. It was no so much that other players could CC (and by the way, they still can ... what other class in this game can your ultimate be ERASED by another class using a generic skill like javelin for 4 seconds!), it was that this "ultimate" is just a weak DOT placed a single player who could simply move away from it. What sorcerer is going to throw away their 40K DPS Overload build for that?

I understand your are TRYING to make pets something and we'll see about that (though it looks like they unsummon if I weapon swap from what you have written!), but this is still the class with the least variety because the cookie cutter standard is just so much better than anything else.

If I PvP, I'm stacking shields and timing my burst.
If I PvE, watch my toggles and Overload destroy anyone who tries to do it differently.

Cathexis

PTS Sorcerer Review:

[ISSUE 1] PETS
I like the changes to the pets, looking at it positively they will be good improvements for both stam and mag sorcs.

That said here are the problems with those specific changes I have as a stam sorc:

• Pet health/damage/whatever else only scales based on magicka. As a stam sorc, pets are useless if they are just killed in 1 hit. Pet health/damage/other stats need to scale with stamina/etc OR magicka/etc like ultimates do.
• Pet damage in and of itself is so poor as a stamina sorc that they basically serve no offensive utility without stat scaling (I mean most summon based sorcerers have to use all their pets and very specific builds to make them effective in pvp)
• On the current live patch, using pets in fights as a stam sorcerer can be futile - if your opponent decides to focus them you have to basically give up on using them because recasting them consumes your entire magicka pool. Even if you reduce the cost by 50% and reduce the cast time marginally as it shows in the current PTS natch potes, without any health/damage scaling for stam the cost to benefit ratio is still so bad that they will not be worth using.

[ISSUE 2] DARK DEAL/GENERAL SPELL MAGICKA COSTS
I am uncertain about the changes to dark deal - again, it looks like it will be an improvement for stam and mag sorcs, but again I see a serious problem as a stam sorc: the magicka cost will be too high. I'm not sure if you have noticed this, but with drink you have about 10k magicka, with food about 15k~ as a stam focus sorc. Almost every cast I cast on my sorc that is a magicka spell consumes about 2/3's of my magicka which means I have to conserve it or only use low cost spells. Unfortunately A LOT of the spells have obscene magicka costs, and the dark deal changes increase will make it HARDER to balance magicka consumption, even if it gives fundamentally better returns at a higher cost.

Sorcerer spells that are commonly used by stam sorcs that have high spell costs, that would benefit from a cost reduction

• Bolt Escape + Morphs
• Lightning Form + Magicka Morph
• Bound Aegis
• Both Non-Ult Pets
• Surge + Morphs

Skills I might consider using if they didnt have crazy high magicka costs:

• Daedric Mines + Morphs
• Encase + Morphs

Skills I use with reasonable magicka costs

• Defensive Rune (this one is about right)
• Crystal Shards (still very high, almost 4000 magicka to cast, but primarily useful as a range knockdown/instant burst damage accent so not really a spam skill I have found on a stam sorc)

Skills with magicka costs that are reasonable, but are trash on a stam sorc

• Mages Fury + Morphs (Why would I ever use this?)
• Lightning Splash (Why would I ever use this?)
• Conjure Ward (Shield mechanics with low hit point shields are worthless because they will get you killed with overflow damage, and 3k magicka is pretty high for something you have to spam on a stam sorc)

Simply put, the costs are too high - I can't use most of these magicka abilities because they suck my entire mana pool, especially if they are skills which must be spammed to be effective. One effective solution to this problem might be to implement a passive which reduces the cost of sorcerer abilities based on the number of heavy/medium pieces of armor and/or stamina abilities slotted on the bar (by a significant % from either armors or abilities, or by a proportionally smaller % from all 3 sources).

[ISSUE 3] GAP CLOSER SNARE (PROBABLY THE BIGGEST ISSUE)
Its great that it has been reduced from a 100% stun/snare to 60%, but this mechanic in general REALLY HURTS STAMINA SORCERERS. Stamina sorcerers, even the tankiest ones (I know this, I am a tank heavy stamina sorcerer in pvp) RELY on the ability to move around. This implementation not only ruins play for stamina sorcerers, it has a degredative effect on pvp.

Unbreakable gap closer snare has the following detrimental effects on the pvp environment:

• It makes ambush spam unstoppable.
• It makes zergs and outnumbered situations unstoppable/unresistable.
• It forces players to use high burst damage, in order to minimize time engaged at close range.

Furthermore, NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS IMPLEMENTATION, and 95% OF THE FORUM WANTS IT REMOVED, OR AT LEAST WANTS SNARE IMMUNITY TO FUNCTION PROPERLY TO COUNTER IT. It makes no sense to have escape abilities like bolt escape or retreating maneuvers if you cannot escape or retreat.

[ISSUE 4] BURST DAMAGE or HIGH DPS STAMINA BASED SORCERER ATTACK

We NEED a stamina attack. We need it badly. It is probably the number 1 thing stam sorcerers have asked for. We need a stamina scaling attack that does effective, meaningful damage. Where is it????

Personal Suggestion: Stamina Based Hardened Ward Morph.
I don't disagree with the general concensus about needing a class based stamina attack, but the truth is there are is a strong offensive ability in every major stamina line already. It isn't fundamentally missing, just inconvenient and restricting to not have a class based stamina attack.

What we lack on live and as I understand it on pts as well is a way to sustain extreme damage from multiple sources, especially since the implementation of the gap closer unbreakable stun - repositioning is a critical component of Stam sorc survival and we just don't have it anymore in places like cyrodiil. We know it works for magicka sorcs - it only makes sense it would work for stam sorcs as well. Essentially it would be a morph of hardened ward with the same parameters except that it scales wit and costs stamina.

Live Issues Which Need to be Addressed:

I do not know if this has been fixed in the PTS, but overload mechanics are really hurting. If you light attack too quickly with overload, you get locked into a heavy attack.

Also, negate has been nerfed way too far. It basically serves no utility at the moment other than large scale pvp battles.

The most important overarching message I would like to be recognized in this debate is this: it feels like the person responsible for balancing magicka sorcs has simply taken the stance that "sorcerers must purely be magicka because thats what sorcerers are." This is an insult to the entire eso series, which encouraged an enmeshment of magicka and stamina based abilities, especially in conjuring skill tree lines - conjuration sorcerers in Skyrim and Oblivion for example were one of the funnest and most popular classes to play and were extremely powerful and well designed. This developer, whoever he or she may be, is either being lazy or discriminating against people who enjoy playing this class that way or who originally played their sorcerer as a hybrid before hybrid builds were made obsolete by game changes. They are not being open to creative interpretation or embodying the spirit of the series, and in this way is a disease that needs to be excised from the creative development if they are going to continue to fail.

Thraben

[issue 1] Pet changes

Are appreciated, though pets should scale off health or stamina as well. Which is true even lore-wise, as conjuring often comes with a price to the caster´s health and stamina.

[issue 2] deadric tomb

cool idea

[issue 3] rest

irrelevant

---

[issue 4] mage´s wrath now scales off stamina, and grants minor brutality instead of a greater explosion.

I´m sure you´ve forgotten to write it in the patch notes

[issue 5] Bolt Escape Morph Ball of lightning teleports the player to a target if someone ist targetted.

Would be nice as well.

[issue 6] Bound armaments

Should give 40% more heavy attack damage to be on par with the DK´s molten weapons.






After having killed mobs for hours just for fun with my Two-Handed-Pet- Build,

I can only say



THANK YOU.

Ignore the negativity.

Khaos_Bane

Pet changes...nobody cares. Can pets actually survive in end game content? I don't see people using them.

Alucardo

I love what you did with stam sorcs!! Oh wait, you did nothing.

Khaos_Bane

Alucardo wrote: »

I love what you did with stam sorcs!! Oh wait, you did nothing.

Yep, very disappointing because I was completely expecting to see STA sorc buffs more than anything else. We got pet buffs though! I have never played with pets. Are they even viable end game? I simply don't see anyone using them.

RoyJade

They weren't, but now perhaps the flying one will be good for dps or heal. And the clannfear will be far better than before for tank.

I miss a stam sorc boost too, but pts testing and change are not over. Let's test and ask for change, if needed.

olsborg

Note that the pet will still be desummoned if you switch ability bars without slotting it.

So basicly what you did here was make it NOT a toggleable but still require 2 slots...Im not sure I see a difference here...Because there is no difference, good job on calling a goat a sheep and still having it stay a goat.

Khaos_Bane

I guess I don't object to the pet changes at all, I think the new mechanics are cool and the abilities will come in handy. However, I just see this being the case for people who just like pet classes and play in the open world solo. ZoS obviously put some time into the revamp of pets, but the STA sorc really needed some help. Even the magicka sorc could have used some help with becoming a more viable healing class.

The healing from twilight seems like it could be very interesting for PvE. However, unless pets are viable in end game PvE content they are pointless to me.

Lucky28

I actually rather like the changes to Sorc.

Pets: i've never actually used pets in PvP till today. and i have been having a lot of fun with it actually. and i've seen a good deal of other sorcs using pets as well. I think the change to pets is pretty good. although, might wanna consider binding a seperate key for desummoning because they still don't stealth properly.

Khaos_Bane

Lucky28 wrote: »

I actually rather like the changes to Sorc.

Pets: i've never actually used pets in PvP till today. and i have been having a lot of fun with it actually. and i've seen a good deal of other sorcs using pets as well. I think the change to pets is pretty good. although, might wanna consider binding a seperate key for desummoning because they still don't stealth properly.

Is there a way to prevent pets from casting damage abilities so they don't get agro ? I think the winged twilight looks very interesting for sorc healing. However, if it's not dependable and dies all of the time in group dungeons, it's pointless.

Lucky28

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I actually rather like the changes to Sorc.

Pets: i've never actually used pets in PvP till today. and i have been having a lot of fun with it actually. and i've seen a good deal of other sorcs using pets as well. I think the change to pets is pretty good. although, might wanna consider binding a seperate key for desummoning because they still don't stealth properly.

Is there a way to prevent pets from casting damage abilities so they don't get agro ? I think the winged twilight looks very interesting for sorc healing. However, if it's not dependable and dies all of the time in group dungeons, it's pointless.

There is not. at least not that i have found. but in terms of healing in group dungeons it's better to go with Surge plus high crit. and Volatile familiar with it's AOE Pulse.

But even putting that aside. you should be able to sustain it now that pets also regen health.

I've only been in PvP so far. i would like to test how pets perform in Vet dungeons and trials tho. Might do that later today.

Khaos_Bane

Lucky28 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I actually rather like the changes to Sorc.

Pets: i've never actually used pets in PvP till today. and i have been having a lot of fun with it actually. and i've seen a good deal of other sorcs using pets as well. I think the change to pets is pretty good. although, might wanna consider binding a seperate key for desummoning because they still don't stealth properly.

Is there a way to prevent pets from casting damage abilities so they don't get agro ? I think the winged twilight looks very interesting for sorc healing. However, if it's not dependable and dies all of the time in group dungeons, it's pointless.

There is not. at least not that i have found. but in terms of healing in group dungeons it's better to go with Surge plus high crit. and Volatile familiar with it's AOE Pulse.

But even putting that aside. you should be able to sustain it now that pets also regen health.

I've only been in PvP so far. i would like to test how pets perform in Vet dungeons and trials tho. Might do that later today.

When you do have a chance to test it in PvE please post your back and let us know how it works. I won't have a chance to get on PTS for a couple of days

Glantir

I think the Volatile Familiar will find a place on my AoE bar. I dont understand why you increased the summoning time? It should be decreased.

RoyJade

You don't need to summon him as often as now (more survivability and don't need to de-summon for his attack), and you don't have any cooldown or incant on his attack. Perhaps it's the reason.