I feel like I'm missing something. Difference in pvp power

redzero700

I started the game about a month and a half ago with hopes of cyrodiil being similar to DAoC's frontiers and it seems like it has the basis for being a lot of fun. I came to the game with 2 friends, one of which is a world class pvper who has made a living off it in other games, ive historically done well, but have less experience. Venturing out early on we got wrecked by higher levels, and thats fine. We now have 2 v16s each, around champion level 275 in v16 purple (with a few yellows thrown in, always yellow weapons) for an overall level of where we stand.

So in my experience with a magica and stamina nightblade, i find myself critting for roughly 3-4k for my spammer. My current magica build uses plate armor and is build more tanky (when fighting I have in the ballpark of 27k physical resist with spell resist being a bit higher), yet takes around 4-5k crits from your "average" nightblade (since 70% of pvp in my experience is nightblades) surprise attack crits for around 5k. Snipes variants are often in the realm of 8k up to 10k, crystal fragment and overload are around 11-15k.

My other character is a bow/2h stam sorc. using everything possible, my snipe (lethal arrow) is lucky to crit for 6k on a cloth target, overload (given, i dont have champion points in shock damage) left click does closer to 4-5k damage with crits, while my sorc takes between 11 and 17k crits from overloads.

My friends have all had similar experiences. We've had fights where we block/dodge considerably more attacks than our opponents, landing more solid attacks, higher APM, weaving light (or heavy with snipe) attacks where the opponent is not, simply outplay the opponent, but are completely dominated by foes with considerably more damage that we cannot explain with numbers even accounting for the opponent having legendary gear and max champion points (my favorite being jumping a sorc only to have him s key backwards left clicking, each leftclick doing 10k damage blocked while my attacks crit for 3k on him).

Ive looked up guides and copied specs, but there is something i feel I'm missing. It seems improbable for every player in pvp to have a full set of legendary gear and max champion points. Even with multiplicative scaling it seems odd for some people to hit over 5 times as hard using the same button.

Any ideas?

Jitterbug

People who hit hard stack spell or weapon damage. Pretty much as high as they can.
They go full light or medium and pump everything into either mag or stam.

Satiar

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

redzero700

Couldnt find an "edit"

Sorc's stats:
Health: 25064
stamina: 28957
Magicka: 8941

Weapon Damage: 2881
weapon crit: 60.6

Spell resist: 16907
Physical resist: 17150

boon: the shadow

---

NB stats:
Health: 33411
Magicka: 28433
stam: 13828

spell damage: 2617
Spell crit: 36.1%

spell resist: 27458
physical resist 26868

redzero700

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

Jitterbug

The same people, the ones who hit hard, don't care about resistance or health, or even regen. They only go for damage stats. That's how they hit so hard.

Ffastyl

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

Stamina builds have roll dodge to stay alive even as a glass cannon. It is frustrating that they have a decent defense in evasion despite dumping everything into offense but once they are unable to dodge, they pop like you suggest.

Magicka builds are different because most heals and damage shields are tied to Magicka. Especially in the case of Sorcerers. Stacking offense is the same as stacking defense due to certain abilities scaling off the same stat. Damage shields are a much harder defense to get past than roll dodge.

Both builds do lose HP dramatically fast when their defenses are bypassed, but they still have reasonably effective defenses despite being glass cannons.

Satiar

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

redzero700

Ffastyl wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

Stamina builds have roll dodge to stay alive even as a glass cannon. It is frustrating that they have a decent defense in evasion despite dumping everything into offense but once they are unable to dodge, they pop like you suggest.

Magicka builds are different because most heals and damage shields are tied to Magicka. Especially in the case of Sorcerers. Stacking offense is the same as stacking defense due to certain abilities scaling off the same stat. Damage shields are a much harder defense to get past than roll dodge.

Both builds do lose HP dramatically fast when their defenses are bypassed, but they still have reasonably effective defenses despite being glass cannons.

The sorc i jumped with the 10k (against ~27k spell resist) , no lightning armor, in (at least visibly) cloth armor barely seemed to notice my attacks and made no effort to ward defend himself :-/.

Perhaps he decided to forgo his regen, but his overall effectiveness still seeemd to blow mine out of the water. Is there any passive hidden bonuses of higher alliance rank or champion level? (beyond the visible "+.2% fire damage +2.% healing taken kind of thing)

redzero700

Satiar wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

what would be considered "enough weapon damage"? I think someone mentioned 4k was achievable earlier, i believe i maxed out at 3600ish when my NB was stam (my regen was terrible, so if you didnt get bursted down basically i lose). I would jump someone with a similar opener and get them to 60%, when they then turn around and 2 shot me.

edit:

found out how to edit! so in general it sounds like offence scales better than defense? Ive watched videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoItO0nHwec&ab_channel=SaiddenEso where he has 1 heal on his bar but nothing ever seems to really hurt him, seeming like 10x tougher than me while doing similar damage. of course he doesnt reelase his stats.

PainfulFAFA

Satiar wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

And if that doesnt work, you can always spam ambush or surprise attack endlessly because nightblade.

Satiar

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

what would be considered "enough weapon damage"? I think someone mentioned 4k was achievable earlier, i believe i maxed out at 3600ish when my NB was stam (my regen was terrible, so if you didnt get bursted down basically i lose). I would jump someone with a similar opener and get them to 60%, when they then turn around and 2 shot me.

edit:

found out how to edit! so in general it sounds like offence scales better than defense? Ive watched videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoItO0nHwec&ab_channel=SaiddenEso where he has 1 heal on his bar but nothing ever seems to really hurt him, seeming like 10x tougher than me while doing similar damage. of course he doesnt reelase his stats.

Aim for 4K damage 2k regen. Have the medium armor dodge/snare removal skill on for mitigation, add siphoning attacks to your rotation and weave light/heavies with everything. Basically you need enough damage to make your opponent turtle for dear life, and just enough sustain to pressure until a fear he can't break ruins his day.

Personally I'm a team player, so I rarely solo anymore. I find if you duo with a sorc/Templar/magica NB who can heal/bubble you your effectiveness skyrockets.

Kutsuu

I'm sure you remember from DAOC the amount of time and effort it took to become proficient in RVR. It's really not too much different here... It's not too hard to level up and get fairly good gear, but min/maxing your build to fit a playstyle and finding your play style (plus learning all the other ablities to watch out for out there) just takes time.

You're fighting people with 3.5-4k spell damage and 4-5k weapon damage for them to be hitting you that hard on your plate character. They are using stuff like 5x hunding's, 1x molag kena, 3x agility (full weapon damage enchants), 3x night mother with V16 gold weapons, flawless dawnbreaker, rally, CPs spent corretly for damage, and sometimes other passives/buffs (grim focus on NB) to get those numbers. Builds like that tend to run dry on resources pretty quickly if you can force them to do CC break and dodge roll a lot.

Your Magicka NB is hitting low damage because you don't have all the light armor passives and you haven't maxed spell damage. You should be able to get 3000-3500 spell damage while still having solid regen, and 7-set light armor will help to do a good amount more damage.

Satiar

Aw hell is he a magica NB? My advice is all wrong than lol. My bad

redzero700

yeah, i left behind stam NB early on because, while i did more damage, it seemed anyone could kill me in 2 hits. Going heavy defense i didnt notice a huge gain.

Im actually out pvping atm and just watched as one DK took on 6 people for well over a minute before a 2nd player joined in and killed all of us.

I am perfectly fine with 2v8, that happened in DAoC all the time, a good player could outplay his opponents. That's awesome, i miss that, but i could tell what they were doing. I only hit him for 2.5-3k (2700 weapon damage) with snipe from max range. meanwhile he's hitting my friend (27k physical resist) for 12k with take flight, stampede for 6k.

It would seem he has exceptional defense while not sacrificing a ton of offense. 6 of us laying into him and he never dropped below 80% hp (doubt it would help, but i have his name. some forums get upset when a name is mentioned, a direct call out)

DeanTheCat

Like others in the thread have posted before me, you are getting hit by 4k+ Weapon Damage w/ 38k stamina builds or 3.5k Spell Damage w/ 45k Magicka builds. I personally have 4.7k (4.9k when Rage Glyph procs) weapon damage and a 40k stamina pool to back it up. This allows me to hit incredibly hard, and 11k+ Surprise Attacks are the norm.

There are other factors other then raw power in the form of the Champion System. Points in stars like Elemental Defender, Hardy, Thick Skinned, Bastion and Resistant will go a long way in keeping you alive. These stars offer a +25% reduction in damage from their respective damage type, allowing characters who have invested heavily into these stars to be hard to kill with the respective damage type.

Elemental Defender: Protects vs Fire, Frost, Shock
Hardy: Protects vs Poison, Disease and Magic
Thick Skinned: Protects vs DoTs
Resistant: Protects vs Critical Hits
Bastion: Increases size of damage shield, protecting against Physical.

In ESO, the best defence is not being directly hit. This means that active defences are the key to survival. Block incoming attacks, dodge out of the way or put up a damage shield to absorb the blow in your stead. The better you get at using active defences, the more points you can slowly shift away from health/armor into your Offensive attributes like Stamina/Magicka.

One last thing, don't try and copy a build from the Internet and use it without any modifications. This makes you highly predictable, and you'll feel like you are playing with a hand that is not your own. These builds are nothing more then a starting point for you to theorycraft your own unique build. After all, you don't want to be just another "Bot" on the battlefield.

Minno

Satiar wrote: »

Aw hell is he a magica NB? My advice is all wrong than lol. My bad

Lol. In your defense, just add "for stam NB's" and you'll be golden lol

Stikato

1. Pretty much everyone is in full yellows.
2. Most people by now that seriously pvp have 400-501 CPs. All of them have maxed undaunted, assault, and support passives
3. More importantly, after a year with the system, they know which CPs to use. Certain skills are not as obvious in terms of which CP benefits them. In some cases, people build their chars to use only those skills that benefit from certain champ points.
4. Most importantly, this is now a stack damage game. The idea is you have just enough gas (regen) to drive the car. Everything else goes in to a) weapon/spell damage, and then b) max stam / magicka

WRX

IDK if someone already posted this or not, but the issues I see are your offensive resource pools are low, and you are missing a lot of penetration by wearing heavy armor.

LA gives you passive penetration when you wear 5 pieces, and it makes all the difference in the world.


When emp on my sorc, my first week or so somehow ended up with 3 heavy on, right when I got that 5 LA passive back I would basically one shot anything not blocking.

Joy_Division

redzero700 wrote: »

Couldnt find an "edit"

Sorc's stats:
Health: 25064
stamina: 28957
Magicka: 8941

Weapon Damage: 2881
weapon crit: 60.6

Spell resist: 16907
Physical resist: 17150

boon: the shadow

---

NB stats:
Health: 33411
Magicka: 28433
stam: 13828

spell damage: 2617
Spell crit: 36.1%

spell resist: 27458
physical resist 26868

When I first read you post, it sounded to me like the usual anecdotal accounts given by players who do not give credit to their opponents, but now that I see your builds it makes more sense.

Looking at your NB specifically, health is a very inefficient attribute to invest in that literally does nothing else but keep you alive and is by far the easiest of you attributes to replenish. Your damage is far lower than your opponents because they are running upwards of 36K+ magicka/stamina - some have over 40K - can have twice the critical chance as you, have greater penetration values for wearing light/medium armor (as well as better sustain). Resistance is capped and can by bypassed. Damage is not capped. Invest in the latter, especially since heavy armor's passive aren't very good.

Your sorcerer build has low weapon damage/crit and stamina for a weapon based build and you don't even have much resistance to show for it. There can be considerable improvement here.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Joy_Division

You just hit the nail on the head. Investing in health now doesn't really make sense except for very few extreme cases and those cases don't involve out dps or killing anyone in solo or 2 man play. As you said your almost always better off going full bore into one stat, I only play Hybrid on my Templar for fun, not for it being the most optimized min-max number way to play. I usually go full bore magic when i want to play it as a healer, even as a healer putting much into health just don't seem worth it anymore

i'd give an arm and a leg for softcaps back and making health worth 50% more like it used to be, then Hybrids would be viable again it would be a lot of fun i think.

Rylana

Satiar wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

As long as armor penetration is over 15k (20k for heavy armor users) a lot forget that.

riverdragon72

it's gotten to the point I feel that no matter where I put CP, what gear I wear nothing matters, all I see and or get killed by are spammers, jabs spammers, sheild spammers, ambush spammers, spin 2 win spammers. this game has largely become just like every other cookie cutter 2 skill min/max mmo out there

Tankqull

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

redzero700 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

To hit hard these days you need full glass canon spec. Get 4K+ weapon damage, sacrifice sustain. That's really how hard hitting DPS have to be these days.

Im cool with that, but it would seem like those people would explode when they get hit?

If you're good with timely blocking/dodging/LoS you can do decently.

Plenty of these people do explode when you hit them tho. Ambush > SA > Soul Harvest with enough weapon damage will drop pretty much anybody.

what would be considered "enough weapon damage"? I think someone mentioned 4k was achievable earlier, i believe i maxed out at 3600ish when my NB was stam (my regen was terrible, so if you didnt get bursted down basically i lose). I would jump someone with a similar opener and get them to 60%, when they then turn around and 2 shot me.

edit:

found out how to edit! so in general it sounds like offence scales better than defense? Ive watched videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoItO0nHwec&ab_channel=SaiddenEso where he has 1 heal on his bar but nothing ever seems to really hurt him, seeming like 10x tougher than me while doing similar damage. of course he doesnt reelase his stats.

well his dmg caps around 2,5k critical beside ice comet ulti usage and the "double lash" wich are essentially two attacks counted as one. he is especially as a dk build arround massive defense, and constant heals by flame lash, burning embers, dragon blood all being significantly buffed by igneous shield wich ontop refills his stamina. and ontop of all that battle roar "refills/heals" all his 3 ressources. so much for only one heal
ESO like DAoC requires alot of knowledge to succed and even more practice while without addons it keeps you from nearly all necessery informations to learn from a fight...

beside that all tips do nothing if you dont have found your playstyle. e.g. i´hve never reached the stats people claim to be possible like 4k wpdmg +40k stam+20k life+ 2k reg and what ever... thus i´m playing with what i have and tinkered a skill setup around that and how i preferr to play and thats what it looks like stat wise on my stamblade:
http://i.imgur.com/LD6bxCQ.png (no rolls only two keeps) my skill set
and i feel comfortable with that, sure there are guys hitting me for twice my dmg but they die after 20sec with no or only a few hits on me compensated by rally+vigor thx to constant roll dodging and vanishing combined with some escape baits where they waist stam chasing me :P

VincentBlanquin

players you encounter at small scale pvp are almost all bis

weakers play at pug zergs

timmayyyboy

redzero700 wrote: »

Couldnt find an "edit"

Sorc's stats:
Health: 25064
stamina: 28957
Magicka: 8941

Weapon Damage: 2881
weapon crit: 60.6

Spell resist: 16907
Physical resist: 17150

boon: the shadow

---

NB stats:
Health: 33411
Magicka: 28433
stam: 13828

spell damage: 2617
Spell crit: 36.1%

spell resist: 27458
physical resist 26868

I have a stam sorc rocking 5 piece hundings, 3 or 4 piece night mothers with dual wield, and one piece molag-shoulders. Im able to get around 3500 to 3700 weapon power with and 84% weapon crit. I tried to go with stacking weapon power but i personally found that stacking crit works better with the stam sorc

hammayolettuce

Like others have stated you need to make sure you damage resource pool is 30k+ and your weapon dmg is 3k+ the higher the better, and if your magicka your spell dmg is 2300+ when your buffed. If you have these stats the damage will be there. But since your stats aren't very min maxed your seeing dmg not as great as others.

While heavy armor is a nice option, as a NB you can obtain those resistances in 5 light 1 medium 1 heavy since cloak and some other skills give you the major buff towards your resistances and impen will reduce crit dmg.

*

MLRPZ

My stamblade got 4k7 weap dmg and 2K5 stam regen, so you don't really have to sacrify sustain for damage, you just have to theorycraft the right way