Level discrimation. ZOS please hide player levels in the group finder and add a vote kick system.

code65536

J2JMC wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

those people are probably so bad that they NEED perfect meta build V16s to make up for their lack of skills, happened to a few friends of mine who where grouped with someone like that...

It's not about being bad...Doing a dungeon with 4 v16's who have decent gear and understand their role makes the dungeon easier and allows more runs. Why spend 4 hours on one vWGT when I could do 5 or 6 in the same time frame?

But it's experience that matters, not level.

A VR16 tank who "understands their role" as a tank and is thus unable to DPS is going to cause a lovely wipefest at the Planar Inhibitor.

For vWGT, I'd take an experienced player's VR1 alt over a newbie's VR16 main, and I'd take a VR1 who has a more open idea of what a tank's role is than a VR16 who rigidly adheres to the canonical MMO notion that a tank's role doesn't involve having enough DPS to 1-shot portals.

If you're looking for a quick run of a particular dungeon, the question that needs to be asked is, "Have you cleared this dungeon before?", not "Let me take a look at your level."

J2JMC

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

those people are probably so bad that they NEED perfect meta build V16s to make up for their lack of skills, happened to a few friends of mine who where grouped with someone like that...

It's not about being bad...Doing a dungeon with 4 v16's who have decent gear and understand their role makes the dungeon easier and allows more runs. Why spend 4 hours on one vWGT when I could do 5 or 6 in the same time frame?

But it's experience that matters, not level.

A VR16 tank who "understands their role" as a tank and is thus unable to DPS is going to cause a lovely wipefest at the Planar Inhibitor.

The point is, the question that needs to be asked is, "Have you cleared this dungeon before?", not "Let me take a look at your level."

For vWGT, I'd take an experienced player's VR1 alt over a newbie's VR16 main, and I'd take a VR1 who has a more open idea of what a tank's role is than a VR16 who rigidly adheres to the canonical MMO notion that a tank's role doesn't involve having enough DPS to 1-shot portals.

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

I agree that experience is important, but communication and gear trumps that imo. The strategy I just talked about above was explained to me in the middle of the dungeon because we didn't have a sorc and our tank knew about it. Took us two tries. We just ran that strategy afterwards because it allowed us to form groups easier(didn't need a sorc and any tank with good resistances was enough so we had a larger pool of players to choose from) Would've been much more difficult if I was wearing vet 1 gear instead of the mix of vet 16 purple/gold gear. Experience makes the runs faster, but decent gear, communication and player skill are what make runs possible.

Side note-I do not equate player skill to experience.

LadyNalcarya

J2JMC wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

those people are probably so bad that they NEED perfect meta build V16s to make up for their lack of skills, happened to a few friends of mine who where grouped with someone like that...

It's not about being bad...Doing a dungeon with 4 v16's who have decent gear and understand their role makes the dungeon easier and allows more runs. Why spend 4 hours on one vWGT when I could do 5 or 6 in the same time frame?

But it's experience that matters, not level.

A VR16 tank who "understands their role" as a tank and is thus unable to DPS is going to cause a lovely wipefest at the Planar Inhibitor.

The point is, the question that needs to be asked is, "Have you cleared this dungeon before?", not "Let me take a look at your level."

For vWGT, I'd take an experienced player's VR1 alt over a newbie's VR16 main, and I'd take a VR1 who has a more open idea of what a tank's role is than a VR16 who rigidly adheres to the canonical MMO notion that a tank's role doesn't involve having enough DPS to 1-shot portals.

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

I agree that experience is important, but communication and gear trumps that imo. The strategy I just talked about above was explained to me in the middle of the dungeon because we didn't have a sorc and our tank knew about it. Took us two tries. Would've been much more difficult if I was wearing vet 1 gear instead of the mix of vet 16 purple/gold gear. Experience makes the runs faster, but decent gear, communication and player skill are what make runs possible.

Well... Usually we do that for the healer, and as a tank I just swap gear for a dps setup. Its just faster. There's nothing to tank anyway so a classic tank with 0 dps is useless.

J2JMC

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

those people are probably so bad that they NEED perfect meta build V16s to make up for their lack of skills, happened to a few friends of mine who where grouped with someone like that...

It's not about being bad...Doing a dungeon with 4 v16's who have decent gear and understand their role makes the dungeon easier and allows more runs. Why spend 4 hours on one vWGT when I could do 5 or 6 in the same time frame?

But it's experience that matters, not level.

A VR16 tank who "understands their role" as a tank and is thus unable to DPS is going to cause a lovely wipefest at the Planar Inhibitor.

The point is, the question that needs to be asked is, "Have you cleared this dungeon before?", not "Let me take a look at your level."

For vWGT, I'd take an experienced player's VR1 alt over a newbie's VR16 main, and I'd take a VR1 who has a more open idea of what a tank's role is than a VR16 who rigidly adheres to the canonical MMO notion that a tank's role doesn't involve having enough DPS to 1-shot portals.

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

I agree that experience is important, but communication and gear trumps that imo. The strategy I just talked about above was explained to me in the middle of the dungeon because we didn't have a sorc and our tank knew about it. Took us two tries. Would've been much more difficult if I was wearing vet 1 gear instead of the mix of vet 16 purple/gold gear. Experience makes the runs faster, but decent gear, communication and player skill are what make runs possible.

Well... Usually we do that for the healer, and as a tank I just swap gear for a dps setup. Its just faster. There's nothing to tank anyway so a classic tank with 0 dps is useless.

The point was I'd take a geared character that is willing to communicate over a low level with experience. You even said it your self, someone who lacks the stats is useless is not as helpful. If people want to run v16 dungeons so bad level up or play on the appropriately leveled main/alt.

gilbegger

If you guys think this is bad, wait till they let (im talking consoles) us have addons that gives DPs numbers. People will have more info in which to judge others "unworthy".

This is why I dumped Wow after 7 years of playing. The "toxic elitist" community. It dosent exist in ESO, or not enough to notice. But mark my words, it will come if ESO allows these addons.

I know these numbers are really important to highly competative players that tweek their ever changing builds to get the most out of them, but, it creates an undesirable atmosphere.

If they ever do allow this stuff, I hope it is for the "individual ONLY"...and not other players.

I used the "group finder" thursday for the first time (console). I was grouped with a lvl 11, lvl 18, and a lvl 19. I am a V16 templar healer. It was rough the first few bosses but the last three were much easier once we got into the groove. (I ended up tanking/healing/DPSing the last 3 bosses).

I explained a lot of the mechanics to them, how abilities worked , ect. I had no idea I was so wise. You could tell they all were friends and were new to the game. All things considered I had a blast and I think they did too. Im liking the "new and improved" dungeon finder. I will deffinately use it more often.

I could see the group kicking me because I was V16 IF by having me in the group made the dungeon harder.

Is this how all the dungeons work? Are they only scaled to v16 if you have a V16 in the group?

LadyNalcarya

J2JMC wrote: »

The point was I'd take a geared character that is willing to communicate over a low level with experience. You even said it your self, someone who lacks the stats is useless is not as helpful. If people want to run v16 dungeons so bad level up or play on the appropriately leveled main/alt.

Well, a vr16 with experience is a perfect option ofc
But scaling gives really high stats these days. My lvl20-something char has around 43k mana and over 2,5k spell damage unbuffed while in Cyrodiil XD As well as 22k health without any food buff. Also it was said in recent patch notes that low level chars are getting 20% hp and 25% extra damage in scaled dungeons... So the stats might be pretty good.

Titan1373

Maybe it's because they qued up for vet and got a low level non vet making it normal.

code65536

J2JMC wrote: »

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

It's random. I've run vWGT a lot of times, and I've always gotten portals at some point in time, regardless of when I take the pinion.

RAGUNAnoOne

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

It's random. I've run vWGT a lot of times, and I've always gotten portals at some point in time, regardless of when I take the pinion.

Yeah, a group member in the non vet once took the pinion then immediately got portals, biggest stream of 4 letter words I ever heard as he was being slowed and had to reach them before the ogrim came out...he switched his second bar to a random bow after that SNAFU.

J2JMC

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The point was I'd take a geared character that is willing to communicate over a low level with experience. You even said it your self, someone who lacks the stats is useless is not as helpful. If people want to run v16 dungeons so bad level up or play on the appropriately leveled main/alt.

Well, a vr16 with experience is a perfect option ofc
But scaling gives really high stats these days. My lvl20-something char has around 43k mana and over 2,5k spell damage unbuffed while in Cyrodiil XD As well as 22k health without any food buff. Also it was said in recent patch notes that low level chars are getting 20% hp and 25% extra damage in scaled dungeons... So the stats might be pretty good.

Makes me wonder why I waste time leveling characters.

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

It's random. I've run vWGT a lot of times, and I've always gotten portals at some point in time, regardless of when I take the pinion.

The person who has the inhibitor's aggro will not receive portals. Also only one portal phase will happen at a time. So pre-orisinium, you could make sure a certain person never had to deal with portals. Not sure if they changed it afterwards.

Justice31st

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Something nobody has mentioned, sometimes guild members from multiple factions use the grouping tool for dungeons and sometimes instead of getting their guild member they get a random player, who is then immediately kicked, simply because there was someone else in queue that the group was looking to get

This is a problem. No organized groups should be allowed to abuse the group finder tool that is meant for random players, and then kick these people. Not only is kicking somebody for no reason a *** move, but it also screws up with the que times.

code65536

J2JMC wrote: »

The person who has the inhibitor's aggro will not receive portals.

In my experience running this dungeon, this is untrue. Both pre- and post-Orsinium.

J2JMC

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The person who has the inhibitor's aggro will not receive portals.

In my experience running this dungeon, this is untrue. Both pre- and post-Orsinium.

Are you on PC? PS4 NA this is the case. Just got out of it a vWGT about 3 minutes before posting this. Our tank didn't have the portals at all. Perhaps it's changed/fixed on a pc patch that console isn't on?

code65536

J2JMC wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The person who has the inhibitor's aggro will not receive portals.

In my experience running this dungeon, this is untrue. Both pre- and post-Orsinium.

Are you on PC? PS4 NA this is the case. Just got out of it a vWGT about 3 minutes before posting this. Our tank didn't have the portals at all. Perhaps it's changed/fixed on a pc patch that console isn't on?

Yes, PC (see my sig). And I just had a farming run where someone got portal duty shortly after taking the pinion. It doesn't happen often. But it does, and it's happened to me personally before. It might be that you've just been lucky and never had that.

baratron

code65536 wrote: »

When using the group finder to create a group, what matters is player experience.

I've run vCOA with VR16s who have never set foot in there before (and a lot of times, they don't reveal this fact until they make a mistake that only a newbie would make, and then they confess that it's their first time through, after which we run them through the mechanics), and, frankly, I'd much rather run vCOA with an experienced player's battle-leveled VR1 alt than with a newbie's VR16 main. And, actually, I've done the former a bunch of times--using group finder to group up with friends who have lowbie alts (we queue up for unpopular dungeons and then manually travel to the dungeon that we actually want to do) so that they can be battle-leveled.

This. All of this.

My v7 alt gets battle-levelled to higher stats than my v16, at least in some stats. He has more than 25k HP, which is quite hilarious considering that he also has a ton of Magicka.

Justice31st wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Something nobody has mentioned, sometimes guild members from multiple factions use the grouping tool for dungeons and sometimes instead of getting their guild member they get a random player, who is then immediately kicked, simply because there was someone else in queue that the group was looking to get

This is a problem. No organized groups should be allowed to abuse the group finder tool that is meant for random players, and then kick these people. Not only is kicking somebody for no reason a *** move, but it also screws up with the que times.

The problem is that there is currently no way for friends who share a Guild to be able to put together a cross-faction group. Apparently the ability to do so is coming. But right now, the only choice we have if we want to play together is to go into LFG and hope that our friends come up.

Granted, I don't kick people from a group without explaining. I generally let them know that I am looking for a specific group, and they go "good luck!". Sometimes they beg me to stay because they're on the final boss and their previous healer quit, and then I'll help them before looking for my friends' group. Kicking people without explaining why is rude, yes.

HaldaAinur

Being insta kicked for being level 6/9 when in a group of vr 16s is a little silly, but I do agree with those who say having a massive level difference can be a pain to work with. So can not having teamspeak (although tbh I personally dislike using TS myself) and general good communication and teamwork. Some things, whether small or big can have a lot of impact on how smoothly you can go through the dungeon.

I've personally enjoyed tagging along with varying (not vet mind you) levels of players in dungeons, but it can be time consuming and I can easily see why it would be easier to hand pick someone of a certain level if you want to do a quick no nonsense run. But that being said, if you're going to kick someone for that particular or a similar reason, be polite and tell them why, and move along.

Reverb

I've had some interesting experiences with the group finder for dungeons. I would guess that most people that kick members for being low level don't understand how the battle leveling works.

But I have started kicking low levels because of a difference in goals. The inability to choose pledge or non-pledge for regular dungeons has been a burden. When you have a group of high vets that just want to blow through for the silver key, and get grouped with a level 22 that has never done the dungeon quest before, it's a bad time for everybody. Some quick checking often reveals that not everybody is on the same page, and people drop or get kicked.

Outside of that, people that do random groupings (wether the tool or zone chat pugging) should expect random outcomes - sometimes good, sometimes bad. Pugging most dungeons is no place for elitism, player inspections, or TS requirements.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

gen_reynard2050 wrote: »

vet pve group....

✔ Must Have TS!
✔ min 25K HP (DPS)
✔ min 30K DEF (TANK)
✔ min 30K MAGICKA (HEALER)

✘ no TS KiCK!
✘ too low hp KiCK!
✘ too low dps KicK!
✘ too low def KiCK!
✘ low level gear set KICK!
✘ alien language KICK!

Who in the world is running 25K HP on a DPS? That is maybe the worst requirement I have ever heard. I am no elitist, but I might kick a DPS actually running 25K health. That would make for some terrible DEEPS...

Shadesofkin

Islyn wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

So I have noticed when I play my v16 my group dungeon start rate using the group finder tool is pretty successful. However, when I play an low lvl I sometimes get kicked from group right away. I believe this is because the group leader checks group list levels. We are all battle leveled to v16 already, so why punish people who want to level through dungeons on their lower lvl alts. I feel not hiding the player level is creating discrimination while using the group finder tool. Atleast put in a vote kick system using the pop up check system.

I'm sorry to burst bubbles here but no way on Earth would I roll up into even vcoa with a v1 in a v16 group. Your deeps and resist couldn't handle the job.

Nothing personal just a fact.

I guess Cyrodiil or whatever might be different.

We did it the other day, the scaling was working without much trouble.

Now that being said, we did have to walk him through everything so it did take way longer than I'm used to.

that's cool to hear and I reckon I'd try it with our own apt guildies but in my humble opinion it's hard to find good v16s even who can even clear stuff like EH or FG without a lot of fussing around.

That said though I guess it really doesn't matter.

All I want from any of the pledges are the DC hat with the right trait and a molag kena hat that's not heavy or impen or both.

I have everything else I want really....I can even deal with the heavy hat if it had a different trait like infused or divines.

The point being I think I worry too much maybe about just getting it done because I've done them so many times....so I could reconsider my position but then there would be ts needed as one thing I would not be willing to do is be typing instructions constantly. That just really bugs me.

I get what you're saying, but I always invite players to our TS even for easy runs, I like to shoot the breeze while we play.

I'd like to promote a change in the attitude towards dungeons, but sadly the RNG and how tired we are of the same fething dungeons all the time is a growing sickness among a lot of high level players. We need the rest of the Veteran Dungeons (I've always wanted Veteran Vaults and Veteran Direfrost).

I do agree about finding VR16's sometimes, I blame grinding. You can only kill so many zombies over and over before your brain rots and makes it impossible to complete content where the NPC's are actually different. Also, did you know there are players out there who have *never* leveled up Fighters Guild because they assumed it wasn't important to their character (since they were mages). Wild.

cote-bmsb16_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Actually, if you manage the rotation you can ensure the tank never gets the portals(not sure if this changed in orisinium patch). Have the tank pick it up first, whenever someone gets portals have the healer or dps take it, immediately after portals are down tank picks it back up. That's how my group did it at least and it was easier than the sorcerer pet glitch imo. Also allowed the tank to actually get involved.

It's random. I've run vWGT a lot of times, and I've always gotten portals at some point in time, regardless of when I take the pinion.

No, its not random. Whoever has the pinion and the bosses aggro does not get moth vision/portal duty. People time it, so their healer or tank aren't on portal duty. [The only time a person has the boss's pinion and portal duty are when they were too slow to grab the pinion in time.]

LBxFinalDeath

Why?

A battle leveled to V16 low level won't be any help when trying to get the gold key or fight for example the ash titan.

It should make levels even more apparent imo.

The worst is when you get a low level tank.

ZioGio

gilbegger wrote: »

I could see the group kicking me because I was V16 IF by having me in the group made the dungeon harder.

Is this how all the dungeons work? Are they only scaled to v16 if you have a V16 in the group?

No. If you use the Group Finder tool then everyone in the party is scaled up by default. If you manually form the group, then the dungeon level is determined by the level of the group leader.

So, in your example, being V16 would only affect your group if you were the group leader and the group was formed manually (sending invites instead of using the Group Finder tool).

ZioGio

Islyn wrote: »

What would be better would be if group finder would have a within 3 or 5 levels of lead sort of selector.

LOL, this is how it used to be (albeit without the selector) and the group finder was useless; it was too selective and it took forever to get a group. That's why they changed it.

Zerok

CirithValaria wrote: »

- Our group of v1-v15 players are trying to find last 1 or 2 persons. When v16 joins they mostly leave instantly - because group is "low lvl".

These guys are indeed annoying, but sometimes they can be convinced.

Last Saturday, I formed a PUG using the grouping tool to do the normal pledge (Banished Cells). I was VR10 DPS and there were a VR5 ish healer and a level 45 ish DPS.

I manually invited a VR16 tank who wanted to do the normal pledge at VR16.

First comment he said was that he was "leaving because there was no way our lowly levels group could get through this".

The level 45 DPS quickly wrote that he was wrong, that everybody would be scaled to VR16.

Skeptical, the VR16 agreed to try. The run went so fast, at the end the VR16 tank apologized for his earlier comment.

Some people just don't read the patch notes. They don't want to be asses, they're just uninformed. It's the job of the informed to inform the uninformed. Of course, if they don't believe you it's their own problem!

NateAssassin

Yeah, probably because like my experience, the low level guy actually doesn't know what he is doing.

I've used group finder, get placed into a group with a sorc healer and a tank with DPS gear on, needless to say the sorc healer couldn't support anyone, I ended up tanking more than the tank as a sorc w/ hardened ward, and all of the other members would wipe on trash.

People kick low level players, simply because there's a very high chance that guy lacks experience and will not pull his weight, nor does he know how to.

Reverb

NateAssassin wrote: »

People kick low level players, simply because there's a very high chance that guy lacks experience and will not pull his weight, nor does he know how to.

But level alone shouldn't be what decides someone gets kicked when the instance is battle leveled. Many lower levels are alts for very experienced players. They know the fight mechanics and have their skill rotation dialed in.

On the flip side, there are plenty of bad, bad VR16s. Group finder has paired me with plenty of crap v16 DPS, and recently sent me to Vet Elden Hollow with a vampire, argonian, templar tank that couldn't hold aggro. I'd much rather have been with a v1 tank that could actually tank and hold up.

Justice31st

Zerok wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

- Our group of v1-v15 players are trying to find last 1 or 2 persons. When v16 joins they mostly leave instantly - because group is "low lvl".

These guys are indeed annoying, but sometimes they can be convinced.

Last Saturday, I formed a PUG using the grouping tool to do the normal pledge (Banished Cells). I was VR10 DPS and there were a VR5 ish healer and a level 45 ish DPS.

I manually invited a VR16 tank who wanted to do the normal pledge at VR16.

First comment he said was that he was "leaving because there was no way our lowly levels group could get through this".

The level 45 DPS quickly wrote that he was wrong, that everybody would be scaled to VR16.

Skeptical, the VR16 agreed to try. The run went so fast, at the end the VR16 tank apologized for his earlier comment.

Some people just don't read the patch notes. They don't want to be asses, they're just uninformed. It's the job of the informed to inform the uninformed. Of course, if they don't believe you it's their own problem!

Tried explaing this to our random group party leader the other day and he didn't care. He proceeded to kick our group member for being a low level anyways.

Justice31st

Reverb wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

People kick low level players, simply because there's a very high chance that guy lacks experience and will not pull his weight, nor does he know how to.

But level alone shouldn't be what decides someone gets kicked when the instance is battle leveled. Many lower levels are alts for very experienced players. They know the fight mechanics and have their skill rotation dialed in.

On the flip side, there are plenty of bad, bad VR16s. Group finder has paired me with plenty of crap v16 DPS, and recently sent me to Vet Elden Hollow with a vampire, argonian, templar tank that couldn't hold aggro. I'd much rather have been with a v1 tank that could actually tank and hold up.

^This. The fact is at this late in the game many lower levels are alts of max level mains. On my alts I have a bunch of skyshards and craft my own armor every couple levels. I know the boss fight mechanics and have my skills researched and skill rotations down. People should not be kicked based on their player level before they have had the time to actually kill some mobs to determine so.

ZOS please hide player levels and add a group vote kick system. Please stop this discrimation based on player levels alone using the battle leveled group finder.

Sharakor

So you actually want to force people to play with some they don't want to play (for whatever reason they may have, it's THEIR decision).

Catblade

Message the leader that you probably have more cp than him and he's just mad you would show him up. That will mess with his elitist ego hardcore