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Let's Make the Maelstrom Sword and Shield Cool!
Personofsecrets
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INTRODUCTION
Greetings everyone. I have seen some discussion of the Maelstrom items recently and wanted to post some guidance that I hope can help the developers in their redesign of the Maelstrom items that are pertinent to tanking. In this post I will be discussing what is wrong with the current Maelstrom tanking items, how they are imbalanced, some of the issues that have come with tanking focused itemization, and I how I would personally improve the Maelstrom tanking items.
@ZOS_GinaBruno , I hope that you can invite some developers, including @ZOS_RichLambert , to join us in this thread so that we all may look at changing the Maelstrom tanking set. These are the Maelstrom tanking items that have an ability which alters the Low Slash skill in the one-handed weapon and shield skill line.
PART ONE-Initial thoughts
That phrase is what I think sums up the Maelstrom tanking weapons. The Maelstrom enchantment does quite a bit and was balanced around doing many things. That is to say, a simple line of balance thought is that the more effects something has, then the lesser each individual effect should be in order to balance that item overall. Additionally, in order to give an item more effects, but keep the item balanced, the item must have effects that aren't always useful or are sometimes situational.
Similar Balance In ESO:
What I see in the Maelstrom tanking weapons is that just because items are balanced in and of themselves, doesn't mean that they are balanced with respect to other items and nor does it mean that said item is fun or useful.
What I see in the Maelstrom shield is laziness. That item is very, very, sad and I will aim toward improving it during the conclusion of this post.
PART TWO-Explaining Imbalance
Items can be made with balance in mind, but may still be imbalanced when compared to other items. Let's see this imbalance by comparing the Maelstrom tanking weapon to the other Maelstrom weapons.
Imbalance 1: Damage Is Not a Major Currency of Tanking
Imbalance 2: Always Useful Passives
Imbalance 3: Passive Versus Active
Imbalance 4: Number of Choices
PART THREE-Explaining Solutions
It is very clear that being a tank comes with it's disadvantages. It is also clear that tanking confronts the development of this game with challenges. Set after set gets released, but many of the sets fall by the wayside or have inherent flaws;
Some new tanking flaws:
That is a big list of issues and we needn't let the Maelstrom items join the other tanking gear on that list. How do we make the Maelstrom tanking items good and balanced though?
The answer is to make these Maelstrom items balanced relative to the other Maelstrom items. That means that for the Maelstrom tanking items to be good that they must offer the following advantages.
Goal 1 - Useful Stats
Goal 2 - No Extra Actions Necessary
Goal 3 - Offer Variety
Furthermore I think the following points are important so that the set in in line with what seems to be the initial vision for the Maelstrom tanking set.
Goal 4 - Make Low Slash Exciting
Goal 5 - Assist Tanks in Resource Management
Let's begin to theory craft some changes.
PART FOUR-Theory Crafting a New Set
First, let's begin with getting rid of the parts of the Maelstrom set which we don't like and are unsatisfying.
Second, let's think about what we can add.
Why have I chosen dodge chance? That would be because it is a stat that is always useful. There are limited ways to add to the evasion stat, there is no way to increase evasiveness in the champion point tree, and evasion is a great stat to have when tanking as it is functionally block cost mitigation and damage reduction. What does Low Slash and the current vision of the Maelstrom tanking set have to do with evasion though?
You see, the biggest and most awesome part of Low Slash is that it causes a debuff to an affected enemies damage. That debuff can help protect an entire raid of players and isn't subject to a mechanical limitation. The best way to make Low Slash feel really epic would be to increase an enemies chance of missing. I chose that stat specifically because it would be in line with how Low Slash normally works. As I explained, Low Slash is a great skill to protect a large group of players. What better way to protect a group than increasing an enemies chance to miss?
But what about the passive effect? All Master and Maelstrom items have at least two effects, so what else can be added on to the Maelstrom tanking set to make it feel awesome, still be in line with the original vision for the set, and be balanced with respect to the other Maelstrom items? Well, I propose that the Maelstrom tanking set passively gives a buff to the Constitution passive.
A Constitution buff is something that many players have called for and because Constitution has such low values to begin with, making the passive effect of the Maelstrom tanking set deal with increasing a percent of those low Constitution numbers would ensure that such a passive buff is in line with the balance idea that passive effect bonuses are generally smaller than what an active effect would otherwise grant.
Overall if the Maelstrom weapons for tanking had the 2 above effects, then I would be gosh darn excited to use them. I'll tell you that much for sure! What about this shield though? We still need to deal with that.
PART FIVE-What About the Shield?
Shields have an interesting place in the game. They can only be crafted with a base stat enchantment and almost always come with a base stat enchantment. Having a good shield, with more than just base stats, is important because of how bar swapping, while using a base stat enchanted shield, eats that enchantment. Tanks almost never get any use from their shield enchantment, if they plan on bar swapping, because of this current mechanical limitation.
It's for this same reason that a Maelstrom shield, a shield with a real enchant that doesn't just vanish due to a bar swap, would be really awesome. The current version is pathetic and, yes, some shame should be felt if a Maelstrom item with a boring tri-stat enchantment was a serious attempt at itemization. You developers have a huge opportunity in making shields awesome and I will now explain how I would make the Maelstrom shield super cool.
From all of the points above, the major point that we have not satisfied is for their to be variety in weapon choices for tanks. We can introduce this variety with the Maelstrom shield. We are going to do so by remembering about our dual wield passives. You see, dual wield offers users reasons to use a specific type of weapon and the Maelstrom shield can incorporate such a weapon plan.
1 - Sword
2 - Axe
3 - Mace
The Maelstrom shield could not only alter Low Slash, but also make weapon choice matter when an enemy is affected by Low Slash. I believe we should also pepper on the same buff to the Constitution passive that I suggest for the Maelstrom tanking weapon to the Maelstrom shield. This would all make the new Maelstrom tanking items super cool, useful, synergistic, and in line with the original vision for the items.
CONCLUSION
If we put everything together, then here is what we get!
And on that note I complete my redesign of the Maelstrom tanking sets. I hope that you developers sincerely consider some of the changes that I outline here and also take into account some of the ideas about balance that I shared. I also hope that when you are designing future tanking items and even balance changes, that you stop trying to make us tanks heavy attack and drop block. Stamina regeneration is broken now so please don't add it to new sets. No tank wants to be shoehorned into heavy attacking for a minuscule number of resources. Heck, nobody wants to heavy attack and if you want proof of that, then get your statistics team to compute the totally lost interest in the Molten Armaments skill.
To quote the wisest NPC,
Thank you for reading and get back to work!
P.S. You could also make the Low Slash altering effect an increase to ultimate gained. That would be cool to.
P.P.S. Please post your own ideas in the comments.
Edited by Personofsecrets on October 22, 2015 11:37AM Greetings everyone. I have seen some discussion of the Maelstrom items recently and wanted to post some guidance that I hope can help the developers in their redesign of the Maelstrom items that are pertinent to tanking. In this post I will be discussing what is wrong with the current Maelstrom tanking items, how they are imbalanced, some of the issues that have come with tanking focused itemization, and I how I would personally improve the Maelstrom tanking items.
@ZOS_GinaBruno , I hope that you can invite some developers, including @ZOS_RichLambert , to join us in this thread so that we all may look at changing the Maelstrom tanking set. These are the Maelstrom tanking items that have an ability which alters the Low Slash skill in the one-handed weapon and shield skill line.
PART ONE-Initial thoughts
"Man of many trades, master of none"
That phrase is what I think sums up the Maelstrom tanking weapons. The Maelstrom enchantment does quite a bit and was balanced around doing many things. That is to say, a simple line of balance thought is that the more effects something has, then the lesser each individual effect should be in order to balance that item overall. Additionally, in order to give an item more effects, but keep the item balanced, the item must have effects that aren't always useful or are sometimes situational.
Similar Balance In ESO:
For example, the Obsidian Shard skill does damage, heals, and knocks down, but doesn't do that much healing or that much damage to compensate for it's many aspects. Could it be better if it, for example, only healed? Yes. Is it still a useful balanced skill? Sure thing.
What I see in the Maelstrom tanking weapons is that just because items are balanced in and of themselves, doesn't mean that they are balanced with respect to other items and nor does it mean that said item is fun or useful.
What I see in the Maelstrom shield is laziness. That item is very, very, sad and I will aim toward improving it during the conclusion of this post.
PART TWO-Explaining Imbalance
Items can be made with balance in mind, but may still be imbalanced when compared to other items. Let's see this imbalance by comparing the Maelstrom tanking weapon to the other Maelstrom weapons.
Imbalance 1: Damage Is Not a Major Currency of Tanking
The Maelstrom weapons all have a passive effect that deals in the currency which is useful and possibly of utmost concern to it's user. That is, all Maelstrom weapons, except for the tanking weapons, have this benefit of dealing in a strong currency.
The tanking weapon fails to deal in a useful currency because of the assumptions inherent to the use of Low Slash. That assumption is that a tank character is the only type of character that will be interested in using Low Slash. Don't get me wrong, damage is important to tanking to some extent, but that is not the focus of tanking. Damage is certainly not so much the focus of tanking that it deserves to be the first and foremost aspect of a tanking based item.
The imbalance here is that everyone get's a useful currency in their Maelstrom weapon passive effect except for tanks.
The tanking weapon fails to deal in a useful currency because of the assumptions inherent to the use of Low Slash. That assumption is that a tank character is the only type of character that will be interested in using Low Slash. Don't get me wrong, damage is important to tanking to some extent, but that is not the focus of tanking. Damage is certainly not so much the focus of tanking that it deserves to be the first and foremost aspect of a tanking based item.
The imbalance here is that everyone get's a useful currency in their Maelstrom weapon passive effect except for tanks.
Imbalance 2: Always Useful Passives
Spell Damage, Weapon Damage, and even, to an extent, spell critical are useful to add to. Armor, on the other hand, is only useful to have a specific amount of. In PVE, once tanks have the armor rating that achieves them the damage mitigation via armor rating cap, then armor is useless to add to any further.
Part of this issue has to do with diminished returns. The math may work out to were spell and weapon damage is diminished to a certain extent once a player has a very high spell or weapon damage rating, but it isn't diminished in the way that armor rating is diminished. This is to say that spell and weapon damage will almost always be likely to have some benefit and critical chance will probably always be useful, but tanks reach the armor rating cap rather easily and that means that tanks are far less likely to want the passive armor gain from their Maelstrom weapon than DPS players will want the damage increasing passive from their respective Maelstrom weapons.
Some players will say that a tank can gain armor and spell resistance from the Maelstrom tanking items and then forgo gaining armor and spell resistance from other places. They think that armor and spell resistance is fungible. Though the armor rating stats are exchangeable to an extent, what is also true is that tanks are already reaching the armor rating cap with ease and doing so, efficiently, without the the Maelstrom tanking items. It is also true that, despite how fungible armor rating is, tanks will eventually have no use for their champion points except to increase armor rating. That means that for the long term health of these Maelstrom tanking items, they should not deal in the armor or spell resist currencies.
The imbalance of the armor rating passive effect on the Maelstrom tanking weapons lies in that armor is a stat that isn't needed a whole lot, but the other Maelstrom weapons give a much more desirable passive stat that players get a greater benefit from having.
Part of this issue has to do with diminished returns. The math may work out to were spell and weapon damage is diminished to a certain extent once a player has a very high spell or weapon damage rating, but it isn't diminished in the way that armor rating is diminished. This is to say that spell and weapon damage will almost always be likely to have some benefit and critical chance will probably always be useful, but tanks reach the armor rating cap rather easily and that means that tanks are far less likely to want the passive armor gain from their Maelstrom weapon than DPS players will want the damage increasing passive from their respective Maelstrom weapons.
Some players will say that a tank can gain armor and spell resistance from the Maelstrom tanking items and then forgo gaining armor and spell resistance from other places. They think that armor and spell resistance is fungible. Though the armor rating stats are exchangeable to an extent, what is also true is that tanks are already reaching the armor rating cap with ease and doing so, efficiently, without the the Maelstrom tanking items. It is also true that, despite how fungible armor rating is, tanks will eventually have no use for their champion points except to increase armor rating. That means that for the long term health of these Maelstrom tanking items, they should not deal in the armor or spell resist currencies.
The imbalance of the armor rating passive effect on the Maelstrom tanking weapons lies in that armor is a stat that isn't needed a whole lot, but the other Maelstrom weapons give a much more desirable passive stat that players get a greater benefit from having.
Imbalance 3: Passive Versus Active
Every single Maelstrom item, with the exception of the tanking ones, only require one action to activate their main effect. The only thing that they require is for use of the skill which they alter. The Maelstrom items for tanking require that not only the skill which they alter be used, but also a that a fully charged heavy attack be used to gain the skill altering bonus. The bonus is small and, normally, balance is done so that small bonuses are gained passively and large bonuses are gained by doing a little bit of extra work (look at the Master Sword passive healing effect or health increase for example).
Nobody else, except for tanks, have to do two things to gain their Maelstrom item bonus. It is also the case that heavy attacking is antithetical to the tanking role itself. A bar swap or roll dodge, of all things, can spell death for a tank and a heavy attack can as well, but the Maelstrom tanking weapon requires that risk in order to have a resource pay out.
The imbalance of this type of effect is that not only does no other role than the tank have to perform multiple tasks for their Maelstrom weapons effect to work, but no role, other than tank, is expected to do something contrary toward one of the biggest parts of it's role in order to get a Maelstrom item reward.
Nobody else, except for tanks, have to do two things to gain their Maelstrom item bonus. It is also the case that heavy attacking is antithetical to the tanking role itself. A bar swap or roll dodge, of all things, can spell death for a tank and a heavy attack can as well, but the Maelstrom tanking weapon requires that risk in order to have a resource pay out.
The imbalance of this type of effect is that not only does no other role than the tank have to perform multiple tasks for their Maelstrom weapons effect to work, but no role, other than tank, is expected to do something contrary toward one of the biggest parts of it's role in order to get a Maelstrom item reward.
Imbalance 4: Number of Choices
Casters receive multiple options for their Maelstrom Choice; the restoration staff, fire staff, frost staff, and lightning staff. Melee fighters receive multiple options for their Maelstrom Choice; a bow, great sword, dagger, and other variations of two or one-handed weapons. Tanks get one weapon that has a constant effect despite what version of the weapon it is and they get a shield with a prismatic enchant.
This issue of choices shows how everyone is getting many choices except for players who are tanking with sword and shield. (yes, there could be another healing staff as well). It is also odd that weapon choice matters for a caster or melee DPS, but has absolutely no baring on tanking.
The imbalance of not having options when other roles and play styles have options is clear. Players who have options can leverage those options in order to become stronger. Tanks only get one option when it comes to Maelstrom item choice
This issue of choices shows how everyone is getting many choices except for players who are tanking with sword and shield. (yes, there could be another healing staff as well). It is also odd that weapon choice matters for a caster or melee DPS, but has absolutely no baring on tanking.
The imbalance of not having options when other roles and play styles have options is clear. Players who have options can leverage those options in order to become stronger. Tanks only get one option when it comes to Maelstrom item choice
PART THREE-Explaining Solutions
It is very clear that being a tank comes with it's disadvantages. It is also clear that tanking confronts the development of this game with challenges. Set after set gets released, but many of the sets fall by the wayside or have inherent flaws;
Some new tanking flaws:
- Black Rose was recreated, but in a way that very few people where excited about because it was destined to do less than it's originator.
- Armor Master can essentially cause the user to take damage when they bar swap while using a crafted weapon or shield of said set.
- Endurance set gives stamina regeneration, a dead stat for tanking.
- Lord Warden has a lame one piece bonus, small AOE, and low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Leeching Plate has a small AOE and low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Imperium has a low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Shock Master and Tormenter just don't do a whole lot.
- Armor Master can essentially cause the user to take damage when they bar swap while using a crafted weapon or shield of said set.
- Endurance set gives stamina regeneration, a dead stat for tanking.
- Lord Warden has a lame one piece bonus, small AOE, and low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Leeching Plate has a small AOE and low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Imperium has a low proc chance. (no guarantee of working when needed)
- Shock Master and Tormenter just don't do a whole lot.
That is a big list of issues and we needn't let the Maelstrom items join the other tanking gear on that list. How do we make the Maelstrom tanking items good and balanced though?
The answer is to make these Maelstrom items balanced relative to the other Maelstrom items. That means that for the Maelstrom tanking items to be good that they must offer the following advantages.
Goal 1 - Useful Stats
Give the Maelstrom tanking set a stat that is always useful to tanks and can qualify as one of tanks primary concerns. This stat should also not suffer diminishing returns.
Goal 2 - No Extra Actions Necessary
Require only using the skill that is being altered, with no additional actions, to gain the altering effect benefit. There should also not be a large mechanical limitation such as small AOE size, a low chance based mechanism, or any other mechanic that makes the set not feel fun to use.
Goal 3 - Offer Variety
Make weapon choice matter and make a shield that is useful for having a unique enchantment.
Furthermore I think the following points are important so that the set in in line with what seems to be the initial vision for the Maelstrom tanking set.
Goal 4 - Make Low Slash Exciting
Players should feel good for achieving a Maelstrom item, want to try it out, and be using the effect which it alters on cool down.
Goal 5 - Assist Tanks in Resource Management
Low Slash costs a good chunk of stamina and the Maelstrom tanking items are originally intended to assist in stamina management. It makes sense for a redesigned set to do something similar to the original effect in terms of resource management, but in a better way.
Let's begin to theory craft some changes.
PART FOUR-Theory Crafting a New Set
First, let's begin with getting rid of the parts of the Maelstrom set which we don't like and are unsatisfying.
Second, let's think about what we can add.
Many effects? NO, these tanking items should feel epic and that means that an epic effect will feel good rather than several small minor effects.
Damage? NO, the damage stat is not an important enough tanking concern to be stapled onto such a tanking focussed item.
Base stats? NO, bar swapping will negate most of the effect of having extra base stats.
Armor Rating? NO, tanks already have efficient armor rating sources.
Block Cost Reduction? Maybe, but we should also consider the future of the Defensive Stance altering weapon.
Damage Reduction? Maybe, but this stat is heavily diminished.
Dodge Chance? Now we are talking.
Damage? NO, the damage stat is not an important enough tanking concern to be stapled onto such a tanking focussed item.
Base stats? NO, bar swapping will negate most of the effect of having extra base stats.
Armor Rating? NO, tanks already have efficient armor rating sources.
Block Cost Reduction? Maybe, but we should also consider the future of the Defensive Stance altering weapon.
Damage Reduction? Maybe, but this stat is heavily diminished.
Dodge Chance? Now we are talking.
Why have I chosen dodge chance? That would be because it is a stat that is always useful. There are limited ways to add to the evasion stat, there is no way to increase evasiveness in the champion point tree, and evasion is a great stat to have when tanking as it is functionally block cost mitigation and damage reduction. What does Low Slash and the current vision of the Maelstrom tanking set have to do with evasion though?
You see, the biggest and most awesome part of Low Slash is that it causes a debuff to an affected enemies damage. That debuff can help protect an entire raid of players and isn't subject to a mechanical limitation. The best way to make Low Slash feel really epic would be to increase an enemies chance of missing. I chose that stat specifically because it would be in line with how Low Slash normally works. As I explained, Low Slash is a great skill to protect a large group of players. What better way to protect a group than increasing an enemies chance to miss?
But what about the passive effect? All Master and Maelstrom items have at least two effects, so what else can be added on to the Maelstrom tanking set to make it feel awesome, still be in line with the original vision for the set, and be balanced with respect to the other Maelstrom items? Well, I propose that the Maelstrom tanking set passively gives a buff to the Constitution passive.
A Constitution buff is something that many players have called for and because Constitution has such low values to begin with, making the passive effect of the Maelstrom tanking set deal with increasing a percent of those low Constitution numbers would ensure that such a passive buff is in line with the balance idea that passive effect bonuses are generally smaller than what an active effect would otherwise grant.
Overall if the Maelstrom weapons for tanking had the 2 above effects, then I would be gosh darn excited to use them. I'll tell you that much for sure! What about this shield though? We still need to deal with that.
PART FIVE-What About the Shield?
Shields have an interesting place in the game. They can only be crafted with a base stat enchantment and almost always come with a base stat enchantment. Having a good shield, with more than just base stats, is important because of how bar swapping, while using a base stat enchanted shield, eats that enchantment. Tanks almost never get any use from their shield enchantment, if they plan on bar swapping, because of this current mechanical limitation.
It's for this same reason that a Maelstrom shield, a shield with a real enchant that doesn't just vanish due to a bar swap, would be really awesome. The current version is pathetic and, yes, some shame should be felt if a Maelstrom item with a boring tri-stat enchantment was a serious attempt at itemization. You developers have a huge opportunity in making shields awesome and I will now explain how I would make the Maelstrom shield super cool.
From all of the points above, the major point that we have not satisfied is for their to be variety in weapon choices for tanks. We can introduce this variety with the Maelstrom shield. We are going to do so by remembering about our dual wield passives. You see, dual wield offers users reasons to use a specific type of weapon and the Maelstrom shield can incorporate such a weapon plan.
1 - Sword
While a sword is equipped, decrease an enemies attack.
2 - Axe
While an axe is equipped, drain an enemy for health (or maybe magic and stamina).
3 - Mace
Decrease an enemies armor and spell resistance.
The Maelstrom shield could not only alter Low Slash, but also make weapon choice matter when an enemy is affected by Low Slash. I believe we should also pepper on the same buff to the Constitution passive that I suggest for the Maelstrom tanking weapon to the Maelstrom shield. This would all make the new Maelstrom tanking items super cool, useful, synergistic, and in line with the original vision for the items.
CONCLUSION
If we put everything together, then here is what we get!
And on that note I complete my redesign of the Maelstrom tanking sets. I hope that you developers sincerely consider some of the changes that I outline here and also take into account some of the ideas about balance that I shared. I also hope that when you are designing future tanking items and even balance changes, that you stop trying to make us tanks heavy attack and drop block. Stamina regeneration is broken now so please don't add it to new sets. No tank wants to be shoehorned into heavy attacking for a minuscule number of resources. Heck, nobody wants to heavy attack and if you want proof of that, then get your statistics team to compute the totally lost interest in the Molten Armaments skill.
To quote the wisest NPC,
Why do you persist? Turn back!
Thank you for reading and get back to work!
P.S. You could also make the Low Slash altering effect an increase to ultimate gained. That would be cool to.
P.P.S. Please post your own ideas in the comments.
My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_8227786
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_8227786
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Would you like the set that I designed @Wing ? @Paulsimonps , would you like to add any comments? @Zavus and @Xsorus , what do you two think?Edited by Personofsecrets on October 21, 2015 9:22PMMy Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277862 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would use that, for sure. It was so disappointing to see the enchants on the sword and board and my first thought was: "well now I don't have anything to look forward to in Maelstorm
" Actually I have nothing to look forward to gear wise in all of Orsinium. But if I had those redesigned weapons I would go for it, that would make me want to grind it out.
You can even say it like this, have the swords active part be to give the user a minor evasion, we have major evasion but I have yet to see a minor one. Or at least no minor as far as I know, the esoacadamy page says a minor evasion is 5% and I would be ok with that, that or like 8% those sounds like good numbers and it works with the current buff system to make it like that.
Also the sword effect on the shield, its reduce damage done by enemies hit by low slash, thing is that is what low slash already does and its a minor maim so you can't go lower. Perhaps another negative effect? I know that the mace you had suggested to be like a breach and fracture, make the mace, just like the active weapon then give a minor fracture and breach, or to be fair and actually.... Give sword minor breach and mace minor fracture. Then for axe if I were to stick with the theme of using the current buff system I would give it minor defile. The two handed and dual wield axes all apply bleeds so applying a debuff to healing works in a similar fashion don't you think?
Thing is from what I have seen is that Sword and Mace are 1h&shield but dagger and axe are dual wield so there are no Axes for the 1h&shield and likewise there are no sword or maces for Dual wield, which strikes me as a bit odd. Why limit our options, sure for tanks its so far only been cosmetic which pisses me off. but it matters for dual wielders that are trying to use their passive system, you know the one we are lacking in sword and board.
That was just what I had on the top of my head but great post.3 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Best thread I've seen on this forum so far. Well done. I'd like to see them change these items. I wouldn't give up my hist bark or footman for these things as they are now. Not in a million years.5 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great analysis
Hopefully it gives the devs some guide lines how to change this Master set
"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU4 -
shugg✭✭✭No we shout till zos looks into changing them. Would love somthing to get hyped about for tanking2 -
helediron✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have magicka based NB tank. I don't use low slash but NB skills. These items are worthless to me. I have 3 willpower and 2 endurance in jewelry, sword and shield. Maelströms have to offer something better than them. E.g with endurance S&B i get over 1k health set bonus AND whatever glyph i use, like prismatic. My shields are already better than Maelström's.
Anything lowering stamina drain would be appreciated. I have hardcapped resistances when buffed. Don't need more unless the total plus to resistances put me to hardcap without buffs.On hiatus. PC,EU,AD - crafting completionist - @helediron 900+ cp, @helestor 1000+ cp, @helestar 800+ cp, @helester 700+ cp - Dragonborn Z Suomikilta, Harrods, Master Crafter. - Blog - Crafthouse: all stations, all munduses, all dummies, open to everyone1 -
slumber_sandb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Heck, nobody wants to heavy attack and if you want proof of that, then get your statistics team to compute the totally lost interest in the Molten Armaments skill.
I love heavy attacking and the molten armament skill With full tank gear and no buffs I can get 20k-25k crits with heavy attacks.
Other than that I agree, the 1h+shield needs some major rework to make it better and more interesting.
1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭slumber_sandb16_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Heck, nobody wants to heavy attack and if you want proof of that, then get your statistics team to compute the totally lost interest in the Molten Armaments skill.
I love heavy attacking and the molten armament skill With full tank gear and no buffs I can get 20k-25k crits with heavy attacks.
Other than that I agree, the 1h+shield needs some major rework to make it better and more interesting.
I certainly grant that there are some exceptions to Molten Armaments skill use.
How it used to work, I believe, was to at least give some bonus damage even if a heavy attack was not fully charged. Now that the skill requires a fully charged heavy attack in order to pay out, it is generally less useful and especially so for players who are constantly performing medium weaves.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have magicka based NB tank. I don't use low slash but NB skills. These items are worthless to me. I have 3 willpower and 2 endurance in jewelry, sword and shield. Maelströms have to offer something better than them. E.g with endurance S&B i get over 1k health set bonus AND whatever glyph i use, like prismatic. My shields are already better than Maelström's.
Anything lowering stamina drain would be appreciated. I have hardcapped resistances when buffed. Don't need more unless the total plus to resistances put me to hardcap without buffs.
When you say that you don't use Low Slash, but use nightblade skills, are you referencing the maim effect from Shades?
There could still be good reason to use Low Slash as neither that skill nor Shades are strictly better than one another. I do get your frustration though if your have better ways to maim than use Low Slash and you bring up a really good point about your Endurance shield.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860 -
Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭Great Ideas!
With changes done to Staff(altho still not satisfying) and to 2h, I had my hopes raised.
Giving some changes to S/B is what I was hoping for, too.Attempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"1 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭Excellent post! Very thorough, and I like the idea of tying together same bonuses across DLC sets/items; you could stack these suggest Maelstrom sword+shield with Blackrose to great effect, which also as the added effect of encouraging players to buy/utilize content of both DLCs. This type of thing is how you make compelling reasons for people to buy DLCs, not by undermining what each DLC or base game offers each time a new one comes out (see not scaling Trials/DSA to V16, lowering TV stone costs of IC gear, etc etc; of course, this approach can be a slippery slope into all but requiring people to have all DLCs, but the general idea to use new content as a way to reinvigorate old content seems lacking in ZOS's designs). Some additional considerations from my point of view:
1. If I recall correctly, miss chance doesn't work on a lot of mobs and bosses, so this would really undermine the usefulness of that enchant. For this reason, I really like paulsimonps's idea about it granting minor dodge buff as this is currently not in the game, and would stack nicely with the major dodge buffs already available.
2. Also as a Magicka NB tank, the only 1h/shield abilities I use are Ransack and Absorb Magic. Absorb Magic is only occasional, however, and goes in my 'flex spot' on my main 1h/shield bar. Usually, that spot is most often occupied by Swallow Soul (cheap spammable single-target damage with HoT and increase to healing received) or Cripple (major speed buff and powerful DoT). I would suspect Magicka-based tanks of other classes similarly don't use Low Slash; however, it is great for stamina-focused tanks for the damage debuff and and decent damage it puts out. Nonetheless, I would still go after your proposed Maelstrom weapons because of the other effects they offer, even though I don't use Low Slash.
3. I feel like the shield enchantment shouldn't be tied to Low Slash, not only for the above reason that magicka tanks would get no use out of it, but also that this limits possible non-PvE tank uses of the shield. Also, the boost to Constitution passive is enough incentive to use the Maelstrom sword and shield together. Perhaps, then, the minor dodge buff (or some other equally useful cross-class/build effect) might be better suited to the shield than the weapon?Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on October 22, 2015 3:11PMGore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden1 -
BuggeX✭✭✭✭✭
✭i rarely give a
, but you deserve one, i like it.
btw sowrd could also debuff spell dmg for x amount#makemagickadkgreataigan
#givemeaexecute
#ineedheal
#betterhotfixgrindspots0 -
jakeedmundson✭✭✭✭✭I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.CP690
Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
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My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=10 -
Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)Attempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"2 -
jakeedmundson✭✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.CP690
Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
PS4 - DC
vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless
My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=10 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.
Could you list some of the enemies, except for real player in PVP, that lower players resistances? I honestly can't think of many that use the pierce armor animation and I am not super sure of enemies that may use something like piercing mark.
Maybe it turns out that there aren't many enemies that lower resistances or maybe it turns out that there are. Either way, I would be interested in knowing about this mechanic and especially so if it is pertinent in trials.
Edited by Personofsecrets on October 22, 2015 3:24PMMy Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277861 -
jakeedmundson✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.
Could you list some of the enemies, except for real player in PVP, that lower players resistances? I honestly can't think of many that use the pierce armor animation and I am not super sure of enemies that may use something like piercing mark.
Maybe it turns out that there aren't many enemies that lower resistances or maybe it turns out that there are. Either way, I would be interested in knowing about this mechanic and especially so if it is pertinent in trials.
Was thinking more of the pvp side for the lowering of resistances
but for the pve side... it just opens up some gear possibilities if you can have 1 item giving you similar amounts of resistance as the 3,4 piece footmans...that's nice. it might make for some diversity and creativity in builds that normally couldn't reach that 33k mark for resist.
all i'm saying is... the sword is not as terrible as some of these folks are making it out to be. is it perfect? no... but it's not the worst thing ever.
the shield is terrible though... i agree to that one. EDIT - if they want to do a tri-chant on it... at least make it much higher... less than half of an original enchantment is not reasonable even when it adds to all 3.Edited by jakeedmundson on October 22, 2015 3:32PMCP690
Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
PS4 - DC
vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless
My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=11 -
Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭jakeedmundson wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.
Could you list some of the enemies, except for real player in PVP, that lower players resistances? I honestly can't think of many that use the pierce armor animation and I am not super sure of enemies that may use something like piercing mark.
Maybe it turns out that there aren't many enemies that lower resistances or maybe it turns out that there are. Either way, I would be interested in knowing about this mechanic and especially so if it is pertinent in trials.
Was thinking more of the pvp side for the lowering of resistances
but for the pve side... it just opens up some gear possibilities if you can have 1 item giving you similar amounts of resistance as the 3,4 piece footmans...that's nice. it might make for some diversity and creativity in builds that normally couldn't reach that 33k mark for resist.
all i'm saying is... the sword is not as terrible as some of these folks are making it out to be. is it perfect? no... but it's not the worst thing ever.
the shield is terrible though... i agree to that one. EDIT - if they want to do a tri-chant on it... at least make it much higher... less than half of an original enchantment is not reasonable even when it adds to all 3.
You think its useful because you tank in pvp, thats why you think the dmg on it is good etc.
The main purpose a tank serves (my opinion) is in PvE where he debuffs enemies and keeps them away from dps/heals, not in pvp. Thats what most people here agree on with the OP as those suggested changes try to ease a PvE TANKS life (which got little harder and less fun) due to missing stam reg with a patch.
Sorry I dont see much reason for tanks in PvP anyway, except for luring a group and have your stealthed friends spam those down with aoes/ultis.Edited by Birdovic on October 22, 2015 3:55PMAttempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭hi everyone, I'm on my phone right now so I can't write a three page diatribe, but I want to drop by and quickly say that many of us have touched on good subjects here. maybe, if we hit one or two more I will make a large post linked to Gina Bruno and rich Lambert so that we may have a more in-depth discussion that they are aware of and can share with the developers.My Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277862 -
jakeedmundson✭✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.
Could you list some of the enemies, except for real player in PVP, that lower players resistances? I honestly can't think of many that use the pierce armor animation and I am not super sure of enemies that may use something like piercing mark.
Maybe it turns out that there aren't many enemies that lower resistances or maybe it turns out that there are. Either way, I would be interested in knowing about this mechanic and especially so if it is pertinent in trials.
Was thinking more of the pvp side for the lowering of resistances
but for the pve side... it just opens up some gear possibilities if you can have 1 item giving you similar amounts of resistance as the 3,4 piece footmans...that's nice. it might make for some diversity and creativity in builds that normally couldn't reach that 33k mark for resist.
all i'm saying is... the sword is not as terrible as some of these folks are making it out to be. is it perfect? no... but it's not the worst thing ever.
the shield is terrible though... i agree to that one. EDIT - if they want to do a tri-chant on it... at least make it much higher... less than half of an original enchantment is not reasonable even when it adds to all 3.
You think its useful because you tank in pvp, thats why you think the dmg on it is good etc.
The main purpose a tank serves (my opinion) is in PvE where he debuffs enemies and keeps them away from dps/heals, not in pvp. Thats what most people here agree on with the OP as those suggested changes try to ease a PvE TANKS life (which got little harder and less fun) due to missing stam reg with a patch.
Sorry I dont see much reason for tanks in PvP anyway, except for luring a group and have your stealthed friends spam those down with aoes/ultis.
Ha yeah i don't tank in pvp (i don't really do any pvp)... was just explaining one part of why it could be useful for both sides at the same time.
you don't have to explain the pve tank struggles... i know them all.
and you can voice your opinion of what a pve tank SHOULD have to do... but it's not what we actually need to do.
to pass a lot of vet dungeons... tanks need ok dps unless you have some very high damage output from the 2 dps (which rarely happens)
I have a 3/4 tank... three of my items are hundings rage set and most of my cp help damage output - 1 bar is s&b 2nd bar is 2h
I can tank all the old vet dungeons with 30k health and 28k resistances... if i had that mal sword i could boost my hybrid build to 30k resist and slightly add damage.Edited by jakeedmundson on October 22, 2015 4:04PMCP690
Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
PS4 - DC
vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless
My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=11 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »andypappb16_ESO wrote: »jakeedmundson wrote: »I really don't think the sword is that bad...
extra low slash damage is nice
stamina recovery won't work much since noone really uses heavy attack weaves (at least it wouldn't be worth it for 200 stam)
1600 spell/phys resist is good (can pretty much replace a 3 and 4 set bonus of a set for just 1 item)
Shield though.... its bad. that needs to be redone or it will never get used. I would rather add 1000 to 1 stat instead of 400 to 3.
For the Sword:
He exactly said why its not good. Just think about it. The Sword gives extra damage (As tank you dont need that)
or the cost. Do you think a merely 200 stam return is justified by a use costing about 2k stamina? Thats just nonsense.
Also Spellres/Armor arent worth it since its pretty easy to reach the cap (at which the extra resistances will do like nothing).
For the shield:
Umm...just use a Set Item Shield and put infused on it + a single stat enchant? ^^ (That gives 1k)
As a tank... you still need to do damage... so the low slash extra is helpful.
and i already agreed that the tiny stamina return isn't worth it, so i don't know what you're arguing about - something else could be done with that.
but the resist IS good... as a tank you need large amounts of resistance. Its not about reaching the cap (which isn't as simple as you make it sound anyway)... you want to be OVER the cap. There plenty of enemies that lower your resistance. if you're over the cap then you will still end up with full damage mitigation after they cut through it.
Could you list some of the enemies, except for real player in PVP, that lower players resistances? I honestly can't think of many that use the pierce armor animation and I am not super sure of enemies that may use something like piercing mark.
Maybe it turns out that there aren't many enemies that lower resistances or maybe it turns out that there are. Either way, I would be interested in knowing about this mechanic and especially so if it is pertinent in trials.
Was thinking more of the pvp side for the lowering of resistances
but for the pve side... it just opens up some gear possibilities if you can have 1 item giving you similar amounts of resistance as the 3,4 piece footmans...that's nice. it might make for some diversity and creativity in builds that normally couldn't reach that 33k mark for resist.
all i'm saying is... the sword is not as terrible as some of these folks are making it out to be. is it perfect? no... but it's not the worst thing ever.
the shield is terrible though... i agree to that one. EDIT - if they want to do a tri-chant on it... at least make it much higher... less than half of an original enchantment is not reasonable even when it adds to all 3.
You think its useful because you tank in pvp, thats why you think the dmg on it is good etc.
The main purpose a tank serves (my opinion) is in PvE where he debuffs enemies and keeps them away from dps/heals, not in pvp. Thats what most people here agree on with the OP as those suggested changes try to ease a PvE TANKS life (which got little harder and less fun) due to missing stam reg with a patch.
Sorry I dont see much reason for tanks in PvP anyway, except for luring a group and have your stealthed friends spam those down with aoes/ultis.
Ha yeah i don't tank in pvp (i don't really do any pvp)... was just explaining one part of why it could be useful for both sides at the same time.
you don't have to explain the pve tank struggles... i know them all.
and you can voice your opinion of what a pve tank SHOULD have to do... but it's not what we actually need to do.
to pass a lot of vet dungeons... tanks need ok dps unless you have some very high damage output from the 2 dps (which rarely happens)
I have a 3/4 tank... three of my items are hundings rage set and most of my cp help damage output - 1 bar is s&b 2nd bar is 2h
I can tank all the old vet dungeons with 30k health and 28k resistances... if i had that mal sword i could boost my hybrid build to 30k resist and slightly add damage.
If your tank NEEDS to do "ok dps" then I would take a look at what those dps'es are doing and either help them with their theory crafting or if they don't like you butting in then move along. I do about 3-5k dps as a tank, and that's not trying to do dmg that is just what I do applying all my debuffs and taunts with a few bashes to interrupt attacks. Only fight I NEED more than that is Planar Inhibitor and in that fight I don't have a single tanking set on, its just all dps.
Weapons damage on a tank set is not something I need, I want something that can either help my survivability, my resource management or something that helps me help the group with other debuffs or buffs.1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just dont understand the benefit of this Shield. Can you enchant the shield on top of the existing enchant or what? Otherwise it's no different than a pretty looking non-set shield that you improved to Gold and enchanted with Hajeiko. If it can be double enchanted(and can drop infused) then it actually isn't a bad shield with the way CPs and other things affect base stats right now.
I don't think the sword is all that bad although I wish all Melee weapons provided both spell damage and weapon power just like Molag Kena. Deep slash is my favorite Sword and board ability and the added damage to it actually is pretty good.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
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Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭I just dont understand the benefit of this Shield. Can you enchant the shield on top of the existing enchant or what? Otherwise it's no different than a pretty looking non-set shield that you improved to Gold and enchanted with Hajeiko. If it can be double enchanted(and can drop infused) then it actually isn't a bad shield with the way CPs and other things affect base stats right now.
I don't think the sword is all that bad although I wish all Melee weapons provided both spell damage and weapon power just like Molag Kena. Deep slash is my favorite Sword and board ability and the added damage to it actually is pretty good.
Thats the problem, its just a Hakeijo enchant lol, not even a "unique 2x Hakeijo Stats boost" or something. If you could use a 2nd enchant on top of the Hakeijo, it was kinda cool, but still wouldnt really help to better its use in favor of tanks. And it sure does in infused Attempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"1 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »I just dont understand the benefit of this Shield. Can you enchant the shield on top of the existing enchant or what? Otherwise it's no different than a pretty looking non-set shield that you improved to Gold and enchanted with Hajeiko. If it can be double enchanted(and can drop infused) then it actually isn't a bad shield with the way CPs and other things affect base stats right now.
I don't think the sword is all that bad although I wish all Melee weapons provided both spell damage and weapon power just like Molag Kena. Deep slash is my favorite Sword and board ability and the added damage to it actually is pretty good.
Thats the problem, its just a Hakeijo enchant lol, not even a "unique 2x Hakeijo Stats boost" or something. If you could use a 2nd enchant on top of the Hakeijo, it was kinda cool, but still wouldnt really help to better its use in favor of tanks. And it sure does in infused
If you could add a 2nd Prismatic enchant i would run that shield.2 -
Zavus✭✭✭✭Anything is better than the current setup tbh. I'm more in favor of it actually promoting tanking though. For example adding a constitution percentage increase, a block reduction, or even some form of mitigation to the shield would be so much better than what we have now.
Like I said before, what's so special about the shield if I can craft a random one, throw a prismatic enchant on it and have the same effect? What's the point of even having a maelstrom shield then? The truth is, there's currently no incentive to get that shield.
Does ZOS even want tanks to try to get involved in the MA?Zavus - Worst NB NA / First NB RANK 50"Most carried General NA" - Cent Satori
Haxus2 -
helediron✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, i am using shades. Both do the same and the reason to use shades is that it spends magicka, which i prefer on my build. Piercing Mark and Inner Rage replace Pierce Armor. My only stamina based skill is Defensive Stance. I am confident with my build. I am farming vWGT and vICP regularly and done hardmodes repeatedly.Personofsecrets wrote: »I have magicka based NB tank. I don't use low slash but NB skills. These items are worthless to me. I have 3 willpower and 2 endurance in jewelry, sword and shield. Maelströms have to offer something better than them. E.g with endurance S&B i get over 1k health set bonus AND whatever glyph i use, like prismatic. My shields are already better than Maelström's.
Anything lowering stamina drain would be appreciated. I have hardcapped resistances when buffed. Don't need more unless the total plus to resistances put me to hardcap without buffs.
When you say that you don't use Low Slash, but use nightblade skills, are you referencing the maim effect from Shades?
There could still be good reason to use Low Slash as neither that skill nor Shades are strictly better than one another. I do get your frustration though if your have better ways to maim than use Low Slash and you bring up a really good point about your Endurance shield.
Don't get me wrong, i am not frustated, merely amused. I concur with your proposal, because majority of tanks would benefit from it. I just wanted to add that on top of stamina tanks finding these items meh, there are tank builds like mine, which do not benefit from those items at all. Oh dear, we still have some build diversity eh?
About the sword: I think ZOS removed miss chance from game few patches ago. It was often confused with dodge chance. Also bosses never miss, and we usually tank bosses. Should the buff be evasion and not miss chance? Minor evasion would be interesting. I do not know any source for it. I would look that and some other rare minors or majors and slap them to the items instead of resistance buffs. If these items had unique buffs that are important to tanks and not available elsewhere, these items would be much more desirable.
Whatever the major enchantments would be, both items should have additional health or stamina pool buffs to compete with e.g. 2*Endurence S&B set bonuses.
On hiatus. PC,EU,AD - crafting completionist - @helediron 900+ cp, @helestor 1000+ cp, @helestar 800+ cp, @helester 700+ cp - Dragonborn Z Suomikilta, Harrods, Master Crafter. - Blog - Crafthouse: all stations, all munduses, all dummies, open to everyone2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anything is better than the current setup tbh. I'm more in favor of it actually promoting tanking though. For example adding a constitution percentage increase, a block reduction, or even some form of mitigation to the shield would be so much better than what we have now.
Like I said before, what's so special about the shield if I can craft a random one, throw a prismatic enchant on it and have the same effect? What's the point of even having a maelstrom shield then? The truth is, there's currently no incentive to get that shield.
Does ZOS even want tanks to try to get involved in the MA?
It's even worse than that @ZOS_GinaBruno . Not only will people not want the shield (or probably the sword as well), but they will be mad if they get it should it stay in it's current state.Edited by Personofsecrets on October 22, 2015 10:11PMMy Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277861 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, i am using shades. Both do the same and the reason to use shades is that it spends magicka, which i prefer on my build. Piercing Mark and Inner Rage replace Pierce Armor. My only stamina based skill is Defensive Stance. I am confident with my build. I am farming vWGT and vICP regularly and done hardmodes repeatedly.Personofsecrets wrote: »I have magicka based NB tank. I don't use low slash but NB skills. These items are worthless to me. I have 3 willpower and 2 endurance in jewelry, sword and shield. Maelströms have to offer something better than them. E.g with endurance S&B i get over 1k health set bonus AND whatever glyph i use, like prismatic. My shields are already better than Maelström's.
Anything lowering stamina drain would be appreciated. I have hardcapped resistances when buffed. Don't need more unless the total plus to resistances put me to hardcap without buffs.
When you say that you don't use Low Slash, but use nightblade skills, are you referencing the maim effect from Shades?
There could still be good reason to use Low Slash as neither that skill nor Shades are strictly better than one another. I do get your frustration though if your have better ways to maim than use Low Slash and you bring up a really good point about your Endurance shield.
Don't get me wrong, i am not frustated, merely amused. I concur with your proposal, because majority of tanks would benefit from it. I just wanted to add that on top of stamina tanks finding these items meh, there are tank builds like mine, which do not benefit from those items at all. Oh dear, we still have some build diversity eh?
About the sword: I think ZOS removed miss chance from game few patches ago. It was often confused with dodge chance. Also bosses never miss, and we usually tank bosses. Should the buff be evasion and not miss chance? Minor evasion would be interesting. I do not know any source for it. I would look that and some other rare minors or majors and slap them to the items instead of resistance buffs. If these items had unique buffs that are important to tanks and not available elsewhere, these items would be much more desirable.
Whatever the major enchantments would be, both items should have additional health or stamina pool buffs to compete with e.g. 2*Endurence S&B set bonuses.
Certainly bring up anything about your Nightblade that causes some disparity. The only step of caution I would take in doing so is to worry about a Nightblade redesign that makes the tanking skills worse for one reason or another. I am absolutely anxious about what could be planned for DK's. My personal tanking hinges on one passive skill and if that is revamped for the worse, then I might as well quit tanking. I don't mean to be overly paranoid, but so many skills have been outright torn down.
I am aware of miss chance being removed from the game and can understand if the developers aren't willing to add it back. The reason for stating evasion specifically is because it would benefit an entire group of players rather than just the tank. That is sort of how I view Low Slash right now - it is a group saving skill. In the end, even if the skill altering effect for the skill can't be miss chance, I hope that it can have some effect that has a benefit for the entire group.
Edited by Personofsecrets on October 23, 2015 12:54AMMy Holiday Wishlist Below - Message me with any questions and Happy Holidays.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8227786#Comment_82277860
