Who is the IC DLC actually for?

OldeDevlin

It's still shiny and new on the PS4, but already the novelty is wearing off. As somebody in my PVP guild asked over chat: 'who is this for?'
It certainly isn't for PVPers. The guild I spend the most time playing alongside is a dedicated PVP guild, the best on the server (for our faction), but we quickly came to realise that Imperial City isn't the PVP content we expected. It's unfocused, has no PVP centred goals, and in reality is just a handful of PVE content with the added frustration of PVP ganking. That isn't what PVPers wanted, and it certainly isn't what PVE players wanted.
As somebody who's consistantly in the top 2% of the PVP leaderboards, does the daily pledge everyday and has completed virtually every quest in the game, I can't imagine somebody being more the target audience than myself. But, it just doesn't work.
The PVE content is decent enough, but the forced PVP element ruins it. The PVP element isn't great as there are too many mobs around that get in the way of a real fight. For me, the blend just doesn't work.
One of the main problems is the grind. Everybody knows that an MMO relies on loyal players, who log in consistently, that's where the money comes from, but we need to be given better reasons to keep coming back. As ever, the main reason to keep coming back is to attain the best gear, but the system put in place for attaining the vet16 stuff is very cynical. We're used to crafting gear at around 12-14 materials per piece. Simply increasing the materials needed tenfold feels like a an extremely cheap gutpunch. Add to that the fact that we usually extract up to 10 pieces of material from deconstructing, and we now only receive 1, that further increases the usual demands by up to ten. That means that if you're crafting your gear, it can entail up to 1000 times more effort. If that was for some incredible new update, at least it would have some meaning, but for all that effort you're only gaining the usual single level gear increase...and that's without factoring in the nerfs to the existing sets.
All that said, Imperial City, and especially the sewers, does seem to be well made and I like the environments, there just needs to be Cyrodiil-like targets and goals for PVP, and the PVE side needs more carrot and a lot less stick. It's definitely salvagable, but as it stands the mix and the effortVSreward

cazlonb16_ESO

People on this board have been warning potential buyers before and after the PC release that the IC is a pve grind masked as pvp content multiple times.

Winterpsy

I find the separation of PvPers, PvEers forced a bit, as I mentioned in a previous comment elsewhere.

I have a feeling only minority of the players play one side only and rigorously avoiding the other side. Most I noticed to welcome and enjoy both.

IC is not strictly PvP, but a fun mix, with a lot of immersion.

Although I do agree on the other part.
Is that truely true that we can get the new mats only via deconstructing new level items? Because... those drop like 1-2 / piece. It's helluva lot of time and grind to get a decent piece.

I wish it was more common. Okay, maybe mining in the IC would not fit, but how about salvagabe ruins instead of mining nodes?

ADarklore

Winterpsy wrote: »

I have a feeling only minority of the players play one side only and rigorously avoiding the other side. Most I noticed to welcome and enjoy both.

Actually, the MAJORITY of PvE players tend to avoid PvP play altogether if at all possible. If you'd read all the numerous threads on here, you'd see that when a topic comes up about regarding what type of content people prefer, it is almost always dominated by PvE players wanting more PvE content with many stating they do not do any PvP. Of course with IC being directed towards PvP players, you're seeing a lot more PvP player participation on the forums lately, which skew the reality that ESO is dominated by PvE-centric players. Once Orsinium drops, we'll see this reverse, as PvE players will have more reason to chime in about content created for them. Also, because of lack of new content, many of those PvE-only players are trying IC simply because it is something new... but if they had an option to only PvE, they definitely would choose that instead.

DeanTheCat

The IC was originally designed with locked access in mind, where an area of epic loot and high experience mobs was rewarded as a prize for controlling most of the map in Cyrodiil. It was never meant to be this free-for-all situation we have today. Districts could be fought over and claimed for your alliance banner, allowing respawns in that district and opening the crafting stations should your alliance control the district.

The original design also didn't have the ladders leading instantly up to the districts, and access was only possible from the sewer entrances. When an alliance lost control of the keeps needed in Cyrodiil, nobody from the once-dominating alliance could enter anymore, and the new conquering alliance would fight for the districts and flip them, effectively pushing the previous owners out of the Imperial City and back into Cyrodiil.

However, due to the transition from a subscription based model to a buy to play model by ZoS, the IC design needed to be changed to accommodate the new business model. The district control system was scrapped. The access was gated on the PTS, but due to complaints about "I paid for the IC, therefore I should have free access", ZoS was threatened with lawsuits and other nasty threats, they had to give in and open the gates of the Imperial City to all. The IC then became the zergfest it is today, due to the last vestiges entry controls vanishing.

It also had the effect of devaluing the open zone of Cyrodiil, as there is no longer a "Prize" to fight for. Why fight in Cyro, when you could just head into the IC and obtain your much needed gear? This is why we need gated access back. Give us a reason to fight, and we will happily fight for it. And PvE players can farm happily in the IC once access flips, safe from the threat of enemy combatants.

Winterpsy

ADarklore wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

I have a feeling only minority of the players play one side only and rigorously avoiding the other side. Most I noticed to welcome and enjoy both.

Actually, the MAJORITY of PvE players tend to avoid PvP play altogether if at all possible. If you'd read all the numerous threads on here, you'd see that when a topic comes up about regarding what type of content people prefer, it is almost always dominated by PvE players wanting more PvE content with many stating they do not do any PvP. Of course with IC being directed towards PvP players, you're seeing a lot more PvP player participation on the forums lately, which skew the reality that ESO is dominated by PvE-centric players. Once Orsinium drops, we'll see this reverse, as PvE players will have more reason to chime in about content created for them. Also, because of lack of new content, many of those PvE-only players are trying IC simply because it is something new... but if they had an option to only PvE, they definitely would choose that instead.

Only minority of the total playerbase use the forums. Just because there are tons of threads from one or the other "side", that does not mean they are majority, and representative. It's a common fallacy easy to be fooled by.
Yet out in the game world, just check the small pledges & badges by the name of the players. Those are acquired through some kind of participation of PvP content.

There are then certainly preferences which content each players favor. I prefer a good mix myself.

ESO offers a nice bag of challanges, where I can test my controller smashing skills be it against pixelated mobs or player controlled enemes.

All this complaining on the forum, is somewhat saddening.

We get something and it's never enough, never good. Instead of just dipping into the content and find what's enjoyable in it.

NGP

They made a huge discount, 75% off or sth near, before IC released. So the it must be for the new players. They needed more players.

Mighty_oakk

Its a weak pve dlc with pvp enabled to distract from the pve short comings

In every other game PvP dlcs have..... PvP features

ADarklore

Winterpsy wrote: »

We get something and it's never enough, never good. Instead of just dipping into the content and find what's enjoyable in it.

If it's PvP content, then I know I wouldn't enjoy it... been there, done that in other games... hated it and won't try it again.

The problem with ESO is the devs are too busy trying to FORCE players to play how the DEVS believe the game should be played, how THEY play it, not on allowing players choices and options on how to play. Eric doesn't personally think block-tanking is fun, so they nerf it... stuff like that. So yeah, when players are forced to play 'the devs way', people tend to complain about it... taking away options is never a good thing. Also, many players tend to be emotionally invested in the game and when major things are changed that impact how they're accustomed to playing, they will become understandably upset about it. The devs need to pull their egos out of this game and stop thinking that they are designing their own PERSONAL game, and realize they are designing this game for hundreds of thousands of players who most will not, and don't want to, play like the devs.

Docmandu

DeanTheCat wrote: »

The IC was originally designed with locked access in mind, where an area of epic loot and high experience mobs was rewarded as a prize for controlling most of the map in Cyrodiil. It was never meant to be this free-for-all situation we have today. Districts could be fought over and claimed for your alliance banner, allowing respawns in that district and opening the crafting stations should your alliance control the district.

The original design also didn't have the ladders leading instantly up to the districts, and access was only possible from the sewer entrances. When an alliance lost control of the keeps needed in Cyrodiil, nobody from the once-dominating alliance could enter anymore, and the new conquering alliance would fight for the districts and flip them, effectively pushing the previous owners out of the Imperial City and back into Cyrodiil.

However, due to the transition from a subscription based model to a buy to play model by ZoS, the IC design needed to be changed to accommodate the new business model. The district control system was scrapped. The access was gated on the PTS, but due to complaints about "I paid for the IC, therefore I should have free access", ZoS was threatened with lawsuits and other nasty threats, they had to give in and open the gates of the Imperial City to all. The IC then became the zergfest it is today, due to the last vestiges entry controls vanishing.

It also had the effect of devaluing the open zone of Cyrodiil, as there is no longer a "Prize" to fight for. Why fight in Cyro, when you could just head into the IC and obtain your much needed gear? This is why we need gated access back. Give us a reason to fight, and we will happily fight for it. And PvE players can farm happily in the IC once access flips, safe from the threat of enemy combatants.

Don't know if everything of it is true.. but it sounds like this hit the nail on the head !

Mighty_oakk

Winterpsy wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

I have a feeling only minority of the players play one side only and rigorously avoiding the other side. Most I noticed to welcome and enjoy both.

Actually, the MAJORITY of PvE players tend to avoid PvP play altogether if at all possible. If you'd read all the numerous threads on here, you'd see that when a topic comes up about regarding what type of content people prefer, it is almost always dominated by PvE players wanting more PvE content with many stating they do not do any PvP. Of course with IC being directed towards PvP players, you're seeing a lot more PvP player participation on the forums lately, which skew the reality that ESO is dominated by PvE-centric players. Once Orsinium drops, we'll see this reverse, as PvE players will have more reason to chime in about content created for them. Also, because of lack of new content, many of those PvE-only players are trying IC simply because it is something new... but if they had an option to only PvE, they definitely would choose that instead.

Only minority of the total playerbase use the forums. Just because there are tons of threads from one or the other "side", that does not mean they are majority, and representative. It's a common fallacy easy to be fooled by.
Yet out in the game world, just check the small pledges & badges by the name of the players. Those are acquired through some kind of participation of PvP content.

There are then certainly preferences which content each players favor. I prefer a good mix myself.

ESO offers a nice bag of challanges, where I can test my controller smashing skills be it against pixelated mobs or player controlled enemes.

All this complaining on the forum, is somewhat saddening.

We get something and it's never enough, never good. Instead of just dipping into the content and find what's enjoyable in it.

Judging by campaign population in the month prior to IC I'd say the majority of players only pve.

Ps4 NA at prime time could barely fill 2 campaigns. That's what 2000 people out of a million copies sold

NGP

ADarklore wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

We get something and it's never enough, never good. Instead of just dipping into the content and find what's enjoyable in it.

If it's PvP content, then I know I wouldn't enjoy it... been there, done that in other games... hated it and won't try it again.

The problem with ESO is the devs are too busy trying to FORCE players to play how the DEVS believe the game should be played, how THEY play it, not on allowing players choices and options on how to play. Eric doesn't personally think block-tanking is fun, so they nerf it... stuff like that. So yeah, when players are forced to play 'the devs way', people tend to complain about it... taking away options is never a good thing. Also, many players tend to be emotionally invested in the game and when major things are changed that impact how they're accustomed to playing, they will become understandably upset about it. The devs need to pull their egos out of this game and stop thinking that they are designing their own PERSONAL game, and realize they are designing this game for hundreds of thousands of players who most will not, and don't want to, play like the devs.

The majority are casual players. And most of them would rather play the game than the forum.

ADarklore

NGP wrote: »

The majority are casual players. And most of them would rather play the game than the forum.

True, but as was just noted by @Mighty_oakk , judging by PvP campaigns prior to IC launch, the majority of players were not PvPing. Of course right now players who stopped playing previously are coming back to try IC, which happens when any DLC is released, but in another month or two, PvP campaigns will be down once again.

lifefrombelowb14_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

Winterpsy wrote: »

We get something and it's never enough, never good. Instead of just dipping into the content and find what's enjoyable in it.

If it's PvP content, then I know I wouldn't enjoy it... been there, done that in other games... hated it and won't try it again.

The problem with ESO is the devs are too busy trying to FORCE players to play how the DEVS believe the game should be played, how THEY play it, not on allowing players choices and options on how to play. Eric doesn't personally think block-tanking is fun, so they nerf it... stuff like that. So yeah, when players are forced to play 'the devs way', people tend to complain about it... taking away options is never a good thing. Also, many players tend to be emotionally invested in the game and when major things are changed that impact how they're accustomed to playing, they will become understandably upset about it. The devs need to pull their egos out of this game and stop thinking that they are designing their own PERSONAL game, and realize they are designing this game for hundreds of thousands of players who most will not, and don't want to, play like the devs.

Oh dear god I hope not. A certain developer in charge of PVP/content was witnessed in the PTS version of the IC standing in his spawn spamming light attacks with a bow. If that's how they picture playing PVP we're doomed.

Winterpsy

Like I mentioned it's a matter of preferance. I spend a lot of time in PvE zones, Craglorn, dungeons, etc.
But every now and then I enter Cyrodil I rock&roll there.

I am not strictly this neither that. It's more like a dimension, like this....


PvE <-..............-> PvP


...and majority of the players are somewhere in between the two. Some in a casual way some in a hardcore way. Only a minority are allergic to the other side of the content imho.

a.skelton92

People like to complain.

If it was up to the players how the game should have been designed it would have been shite. If you are emotionally invested into a game that it actually makes you "upset" then now is the time to take a bloody break.

Most people get annoyed and upset and (as is the gamers way) tend to speak for the rest of the population.

The constant use of the word "majority" is useless unless supported by fact. So stop using the term when in reality all you are really doing is talking about yourself and a couple of randoms in your guild.

Some say (including me) the "majority" is actually enjoying the content. But of course the only time people come onto the forums is when they are moaning as the ones that actually enjoy the game are too busy enjoying the game.

Unless people come onto the forums to leave some constructive feedback (or actually ask a question) why do people feel the need to let the world know "i am unhappy?".. Take your hate recruitment drive somewhere else

Winterpsy

a.skelton92 wrote: »

...everything....

I agree with you very much! Well worded.

Junglejim82

Op and I are guild mates , singing from the same hymn sheet here. He'd have had the unpleasantness if having to listen to me rage last night over the 3 hours , yes that's right 3 hours it took to join them in cyrodil . Ironically by the time I made it in it was time to go to bed for work . We'll thought out devs. Both my campaigns are pop locked so tried changing my guest campaign but guess what it's 150k alliance . I had 45k so I couldn't even farm ap to switch campaigns. As for the subject of this post I'm in complete agreement. Toad refered to the sewers as a 24 man public dungeon. Can't disagree. It's killed eso for me for the foreseeable future. Buying mgs tonight and I'll play that until the campaign goes back to being a campaign instead of a ghost town you can't enter . I play eso to pvp . Right now I can't pvp . Gg devs

Winterpsy

Sadly, I encountered the same issue about joining guildies.

One guys was homing Azura (poplocked with 200< queue) and he was not allowed to change guest either. (had no idea that could happen, but he sent me a screenshot as proof).
With the others we were waiting in another 180ish queue. Frustrating.
Maybe adding more campaigns would solve this.

I am happy they added Scourge to Ps4. It was needed. And yet still a lot of waiting times for those balanced campaigns where you have a chance to reach the IC, or a chance to push back the enemy factions a bit to have an option to own one corner of the map.
Most other campaigns are one sided, enemy faction is camping under the HQ, smacking everyone trying to exit it.

But hey, I do hope it will get balanced out by itself eventually. People will abandon IC giving room to others, Cyro population normalizing etc.

OldeDevlin

a.skelton92 wrote: »

People like to complain.

If it was up to the players how the game should have been designed it would have been shite. If you are emotionally invested into a game that it actually makes you "upset" then now is the time to take a bloody break.

Most people get annoyed and upset and (as is the gamers way) tend to speak for the rest of the population.

The constant use of the word "majority" is useless unless supported by fact. So stop using the term when in reality all you are really doing is talking about yourself and a couple of randoms in your guild.

Some say (including me) the "majority" is actually enjoying the content. But of course the only time people come onto the forums is when they are moaning as the ones that actually enjoy the game are too busy enjoying the game.

Unless people come onto the forums to leave some constructive feedback (or actually ask a question) why do people feel the need to let the world know "i am unhappy?".. Take your hate recruitment drive somewhere else

In my post I suggested the problems, and nor did I say at any point that I'm unhappy. I said that the novelty of the DLC was quickly losing its appeal, and explained why, I also implied solutions. People then responded with their own opinions. That's what a discussion forum is for. It's not complaining, it's talking about the problems with something that you give a damn about.
Complaining about 'complaining' doesn't add anything.

Eleusian

Everyone in my main guild that actually PVPs hates the DLC. Everyone that PVE hates the DLC. To many problems to list why the sentiment is this way. Of course we have plenty of time to talk about in while we wait in the campaign Q for 3 hours. Good stuff

OldeDevlin

Aye. Again, it comes down to the question: 'Who is it for?'
I love both sides of content, but this middleground dlc needs a lot of work.

Sausage

Its called PVPVE. Im not sure if you're trolling though, I think its great addition to the game. I fear though it becomes ghost town like Craglorn in next couple month.

Gyudan

If you like the loading screen illustrations, you will definitely enjoy it.

OldeDevlin

Sausage wrote: »

Its called PVPVE. Im not sure if you're trolling though, I think its great addition to the game.

If you're not sure whether I'm trolling, perhaps read a book and spend less time on the internet.
You'll learn that somebody expressing a different opinion to your own, isn't trolling.
Or...are you trolling me?

BalticBlues

Sausage wrote: »

Its called PVPVE.

Like mixing Garlic and Vanilla and calling this Garilla?

BuggeX

@DeanTheCat like the Cat said.

not Sure about the District Flips, but sure about that the leaders directly to the districts where not planed earlyer

Sausage

OldeDevlin wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Its called PVPVE. Im not sure if you're trolling though, I think its great addition to the game.

If you're not sure whether I'm trolling, perhaps read a book and spend less time on the internet.
You'll learn that somebody expressing a different opinion to your own, isn't trolling.
Or...are you trolling me?

Come on, you whine about NPCs, and you have never been killed by a guards in this game?

NephilimHero

It's for people who play the elder scrolls online: tamriel unlimited

Septimus_Magna

I wasnt sure if pvp in a pve area would work but I have to say I like it so far. The pve content in IC is pretty easy but the pvp element makes it more exciting. There's team death match style combat in the districts without any disadvantages, this is a good place to practice pvp for players that arent used to pvp fights. Even trophy farming in the sewers is fun because you run into though roaming bosses and enemy groups every now and then.

You can be successful in small groups (4-6 players) if everyone has sufficient pvp skills, if you're not used to pvp I would suggest running with at least 8 people.

NDwarf

Imperial City suffers from too many cooks in the kitchen syndrome. It's like a group of game devs got together and they threw all of their ideals into the DLC. It's like a group of chefs threw ingredients into a cooking pot. The end result is pot luck and passable but it's no gourmet meal.

The thing about this DLC is this: I can go in as a nightblade PvE build or a PvP build.

My PvE build uses CC, sustained damage and recovery. Great for pinning down a group pf mobs and chipping away at the million hit points they have now. I have 20 points in Health to take the odd AOE hit. If I get into a PvP fight with this build I lose.

My PvP build is a single target, burst damage, stealth gank build. I can pick out a distracted/wounded target and take them out, vampire players in particular. I have all points in stamina and I die if a gnat so much as sneezes on me. If I get into a PvE fight with this build I need to run away or die.

So that's the problem with this DLC. I sort of found a mixed PvE/PvP build that kind of works but it's half-assed at both.