Dedicated Tel Var Stone System Feedback Thread

phaseadept

I agree with the above post

DDuke

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm getting too old for this nonsense. You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care, but try to have some basic respect for language. I don't care what they choose to do with the stone system, but the proposed system is not UNFAIR.

In real life everyone can get shot by a bullet through the head, everyone can stave, everyone can be brutalized. So according to your definition life is fair.....

The fact is that IC encourage negative behavior that create a negative social environment that cause damage to the game community in ESO.

ESO will be a different game after this, where the people with the worst behaviors will be the most successful where is used to be the most skilled and best organizers that were the most successful.

So it goes from positive social and personal skills that were rewarded in the game to being negative patterns that are rewarded and that will completely change how people will look at the game and regard the community they interact with.

The damage IC will do to the game population will be severe.

Sorry, but it's players like you who are causing damage to the game community, demanding everything to be made according to your tastes & preferences.

If IC is encouraging "negative behaviour", then what is Cyrodiil doing?

By your definition, it's bad to rob someone but perfectly fine to break down someone's walls, shoot someone with a fire ballista and then teabag their corpse.

What is wrong with you people? You can't compare a game with real life.

But if you still want to do that, then atleast don't be a hypocrite.


Also, "most skilled" and "best organizers" have never been the "most successful" (no matter how you view success), the most successful are the ones who grind goblins 24/7.

Even without goblins...why do you even want TV stones?
What specifically do you want to purchase with them, that makes others "more successful"?

As far as I know, everything bought with them is BoE, in case you really don't like IC PvP (unlike many, if not even most of us)

Tavore1138

I can take that one...

Cyrodiil is fighting with others for your alliance, IC is fighting for yourself to loot corpses (obviously you don't have the risk of actually looting corpses as that would be too scary for some) - the first has the veneer of a just war, the second has no such cause. One encourages and rewards teamwork, the latter rewards selfish play. That is how it 'feels'.

Corpse teabaggers are not representative of the majority... I hope.

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

And if I play IC and I kill someone and suddenly get 10k stones I'm going to feel like it's dirty money...

Tavore1138

And since this is an mmoRPG another valid answer is that I just united the alliances AGAINST the daedra so while I might still fight for my chosen alliance I would never want to gank someone else whi is also fighting the enemy of our combined species.

DDuke

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I can take that one...

Cyrodiil is fighting with others for your alliance, IC is fighting for yourself to loot corpses (obviously you don't have the risk of actually looting corpses as that would be too scary for some) - the first has the veneer of a just war, the second has no such cause. One encourages and rewards teamwork, the latter rewards selfish play. That is how it 'feels'.

I have never viewed Cyrodiil that way. I couldn't give a *** about the alliance, this is not like WoW where you had a big sense of "faction pride".

The only time when I care how DC is doing is when I want XP buffs while grinding goblins, other times I'm PvPing for myself only. I don't find fun in the big keep zergs and such.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Corpse teabaggers are not representative of the majority... I hope.

No, but that is to demonstrate that bad behaviour stems from players, not from the game. You put these same players who cry about "exploits" and "macros" when you beat them in fair fight, or teabag your corpse in a MOBA, FPS or any other game, and I guarantee you they'll behave just as bad.

TV Stones as a mechanic do nothing to change human nature, but you are welcome to conduct a scientific study on this (I might even help you, because I find these topics fascinating).

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

IC would be the exact same as goblin cave without a mechanic to make it different.
You'd have players griefing each other, stealing mobs & xp, teabagging etc...

Atleast there's a mini game in play with TV Stones, something to separate it from regular small scale PvP.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

And if I play IC and I kill someone and suddenly get 10k stones I'm going to feel like it's dirty money...

Well, you don't have to kill that person if you feel that way. But to be honest, that person knew the risk he was taking, carrying around 10k stones.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm getting too old for this nonsense. You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care, but try to have some basic respect for language. I don't care what they choose to do with the stone system, but the proposed system is not UNFAIR.

In real life everyone can get shot by a bullet through the head, everyone can stave, everyone can be brutalized. So according to your definition life is fair.....

The fact is that IC encourage negative behavior that create a negative social environment that cause damage to the game community in ESO.

ESO will be a different game after this, where the people with the worst behaviors will be the most successful where is used to be the most skilled and best organizers that were the most successful.

So it goes from positive social and personal skills that were rewarded in the game to being negative patterns that are rewarded and that will completely change how people will look at the game and regard the community they interact with.

The damage IC will do to the game population will be severe.

Sorry, but it's players like you who are causing damage to the game community, demanding everything to be made according to your tastes & preferences.

If IC is encouraging "negative behaviour", then what is Cyrodiil doing?

By your definition, it's bad to rob someone but perfectly fine to break down someone's walls, shoot someone with a fire ballista and then teabag their corpse.

What is wrong with you people? You can't compare a game with real life.

But if you still want to do that, then atleast don't be a hypocrite.


Also, "most skilled" and "best organizers" have never been the "most successful" (no matter how you view success), the most successful are the ones who grind goblins 24/7.

Even without goblins...why do you even want TV stones?
What specifically do you want to purchase with them, that makes others "more successful"?

As far as I know, everything bought with them is BoE, in case you really don't like IC PvP (unlike many, if not even most of us)

First of all yes you can compare a social game like ESO with real life. Its human interaction and this behavioral patterns are the same as in real life and if the social environment reward negative actions the social environment become negative. That is one of the reasons why you have so many problems in large parts of the world, because of an overall unfair way people treat each other.

The devs have the power to channel social interaction in a positive or negative way in games, and so far it has been positive in ESO simply because no one lost anything. So PvP was more like a game of sport than real nasty war, which is a good thing.

I do not ask that all should comply to my taste, I ask that they make a system where the game keep on being a positive social experience. To do that they should make loot become voluntary.

If you made the loot system a toggle, then you would avoid all the social damage of the system because each person who can loot or can be looted all have actively set themselves up for that gameplay while those that cannot stand it can still take part in the action in IC but avoid the part that frankly make them uncomfortable.

Griefers cannot grief because everyone they CAN loot has selected to be lootable and therefore cannot be mentally harmed by the action of the person who defeats them.

The only thing they need to change with a toggle system is that the increased gain of stones depending on how many you have on you should NEVER apply to those without the loot option on because they take less risk, they should gain less reward.

Personally I felt almost sick when I got stones from a dead enemy in IC. I DON'T WANT TO HURT MY OPPONENTS BY LOOTING THEM!!!!

Tavore1138

DDuke wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I can take that one...

Cyrodiil is fighting with others for your alliance, IC is fighting for yourself to loot corpses (obviously you don't have the risk of actually looting corpses as that would be too scary for some) - the first has the veneer of a just war, the second has no such cause. One encourages and rewards teamwork, the latter rewards selfish play. That is how it 'feels'.

I have never viewed Cyrodiil that way. I couldn't give a *** about the alliance, this is not like WoW where you had a big sense of "faction pride".

The only time when I care how DC is doing is when I want XP buffs while grinding goblins, other times I'm PvPing for myself only. I don't find fun in the big keep zergs and such.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Corpse teabaggers are not representative of the majority... I hope.

No, but that is to demonstrate that bad behaviour stems from players, not from the game. You put these same players who cry about "exploits" and "macros" when you beat them in fair fight, or teabag your corpse in a MOBA, FPS or any other game, and I guarantee you they'll behave just as bad.

TV Stones as a mechanic do nothing to change human nature, but you are welcome to conduct a scientific study on this (I might even help you, because I find these topics fascinating).

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

IC would be the exact same as goblin cave without a mechanic to make it different.
You'd have players griefing each other, stealing mobs & xp, teabagging etc...

Atleast there's a mini game in play with TV Stones, something to separate it from regular small scale PvP.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

And if I play IC and I kill someone and suddenly get 10k stones I'm going to feel like it's dirty money...

Well, you don't have to kill that person if you feel that way. But to be honest, that person knew the risk he was taking, carrying around 10k stones.

For sure there are many [word not inserted due to wanting to avoid moderation] in this or any game, just as there are in life - my contention is that I *think* that this type of PvP is possible more likely to bring out the [word not inserted due to wanting to avoid unnecessary offence] in people.

But as you say without hard numbers it is just speculation - but based on a cynical view on human nature that bad acts are directly proportional to the opportunity to carry out bad acts.

But we will always come back to the base truth that some players want this and others don't - there isn't an inherent right or wrong in that on either side.

What IS wrong is that ZOS have, for purely commercial reasons (no evil conspiracy here), made it harder to get VR15/16 items of many kinds without buying and playing IC - including the Tel Var stones system. This is going to encourage players who won't share your love of the upcoming content to come in trying to get their high level stuff without having to pay out millions in gold to a guild store - they are going to try to do some PvE type encounters, gather some stones and then get stabbed because they are not going to be ready for a Decimus or whoever else may be stalking them (hell many of them wouldn't be ready for a me to try ganking them)... they will then die and lose their stones and they will not feel that rush they will just feel angry and hate the game or cry for more NB nerfs or whatever.

Which is why I still think ZOS need some level of compromise be it:

- Specific areas of IC where looting and high/risk reward PvP is implemented and stone drop rate is higher and places where it isn't but the rewards are lesser so that people get that option of whether they want to play that aspect of PvP but if they don't they can still get the gear (but at a slower more grindy pace).
- Or a reduced rate of loss at death that is significant enough to provide the rush but leaves enough stones that people don't explode with rage.
- Or a mechanic that forces the killer to actually interact with the corpse while looting so they take their share of the risk.

olemanwinter

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm getting too old for this nonsense. You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care, but try to have some basic respect for language. I don't care what they choose to do with the stone system, but the proposed system is not UNFAIR.

In real life everyone can get shot by a bullet through the head, everyone can stave, everyone can be brutalized. So according to your definition life is fair.....

No. Because you don't agree to those things as conditions of something before you begin.

You agree to these terms as a part of the GAME.
It's no less fair than tackling someone in football. You wait all day to catch a pass and then get immediately tackled. That's UNFORTUNATE. Not UNFAIR.

"I finally got the football and I immediately got tackled. That's not FAIR! Waaaaaaaaaa!"

It's almost exactly the same. You sign up to play the game based on the premise of this unpleasant thing happening to you, and it can happen to all players the same because they are all under the same set of rules, and nobody likes it when it happens to them....but it's widely considered FAIR.

If you people insist on equating this game to real life violence, which is ABSURD, then lets at least compare it to something where everyone signs up knowing they may get shot as a condition - like war.

Is it "fair" when a soldier is killed in a war? Or is it "unfair"?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

olemanwinter wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm getting too old for this nonsense. You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care, but try to have some basic respect for language. I don't care what they choose to do with the stone system, but the proposed system is not UNFAIR.

In real life everyone can get shot by a bullet through the head, everyone can stave, everyone can be brutalized. So according to your definition life is fair.....

No. Because you don't agree to those things as conditions of something before you begin.

You agree to these terms as a part of the GAME.
It's no less fair than tackling someone in football. You wait all day to catch a pass and then get immediately tackled. That's UNFORTUNATE. Not NOT UNFAIR.

"I finally got the football and I immediately got tackled. That's not FAIR! Waaaaaaaaaa!"

It's almost exactly the same. You sign up to play the game based on the premise of this unpleasant thing happening to you, and it can happen to all players the same because they are all under the same set of rules, and nobody likes it when it happens to them....but it's widely considered FAIR.

If you people insist on equating this game to real life violence, which is ABSURD, then lets at least compare it to something where everyone signs up knowing they may get shot as a condition - like war.

Is it "fair" when a soldier is killed in a war? Or is it "unfair"?

The thing is the stone system is not something you sign up for at the moment, it is something forced on you if you want to be a part of the v15+ game...

What I would like is EXACTLY that it is something you sign up for via a toggle. So you can select to not be a part of the loot and be looted system but still have part in the fun of the combat in there.

Such a toggle will remove all the negativity the system creates, allow those who like looting to loot and allow others to have fun too. EVERYONE WINS!

Rinmaethodain

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm getting too old for this nonsense. You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care, but try to have some basic respect for language. I don't care what they choose to do with the stone system, but the proposed system is not UNFAIR.

In real life everyone can get shot by a bullet through the head, everyone can stave, everyone can be brutalized. So according to your definition life is fair.....

No. Because you don't agree to those things as conditions of something before you begin.

You agree to these terms as a part of the GAME.
It's no less fair than tackling someone in football. You wait all day to catch a pass and then get immediately tackled. That's UNFORTUNATE. Not NOT UNFAIR.

"I finally got the football and I immediately got tackled. That's not FAIR! Waaaaaaaaaa!"

It's almost exactly the same. You sign up to play the game based on the premise of this unpleasant thing happening to you, and it can happen to all players the same because they are all under the same set of rules, and nobody likes it when it happens to them....but it's widely considered FAIR.

If you people insist on equating this game to real life violence, which is ABSURD, then lets at least compare it to something where everyone signs up knowing they may get shot as a condition - like war.

Is it "fair" when a soldier is killed in a war? Or is it "unfair"?

The thing is the stone system is not something you sign up for at the moment, it is something forced on you if you want to be a part of the v15+ game...

What I would like is EXACTLY that it is something you sign up for via a toggle. So you can select to not be a part of the loot and be looted system but still have part in the fun of the combat in there.

Such a toggle will remove all the negativity the system creates, allow those who like looting to loot and allow others to have fun too. EVERYONE WINS!

Agree in 100%

olemanwinter

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

I strongly suggest you learn some history so you have a wider and more accurate view of what war is like.

Some things you may not be aware of.

- The soil that war is fought on effects everyone, not just soldiers in formation
(So PvP beyond siege/zerg warfare)
- 3rd parties move in to take advantage of distracted, desperate, and weakened combatants
(molag bal)
- Crime increases dramatically
(gankers)
- Losing sides often fracture into small skirmish group
(Small groups who give up on the cause and seek personal rewards/glory with the absence of an attainable victory)

As for looting corpses and war-vs-crime, how many soldiers came home from Europe in WW2 with german helmets, how many came home from the Pacific with Japanese swords.

Let's keep this simple. YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE YOUR STONES. And that's okay. I don't necessarily disagree.

But let's please stop saying the system treats people unequally, or that it's some dramatic move into the realm of unacceptable human behavior, or without the Tel Var system players are going to let you pass.

I'm not going to let you pass whether I can loot you or not and I don't know anyone else who would. The only people I know who "let others pass" can't PvP and really just hoping they are allowed to pass. lol

TLDR: ITT "Ignorance is bliss", as they say.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

olemanwinter wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

I strongly suggest you learn some history so you have a wider and more accurate view of what war is like.

Some things you may not be aware of.

- The soil that war is fought on effects everyone, not just soldiers in formation
(So PvP beyond siege/zerg warfare)
- 3rd parties move in to take advantage of distracted, desperate, and weakened combatants
(molag bal)
- Crime increases dramatically
(gankers)
- Losing sides often fracture into small skirmish group
(Small groups who give up on the cause and seek personal rewards/glory with the absence of an attainable victory)

As for looting corpses and war-vs-crime, how many soldiers came home from Europe in WW2 with german helmets, how many came home from the Pacific with Japanese swords.

Let's keep this simple. YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE YOUR STONES. And that's okay. I don't necessarily disagree.

But let's please stop saying the system treats people unequally, or that it's some dramatic move into the realm of unacceptable human behavior, or without the Tel Var system players are going to let you pass.

I'm not going to let you pass whether I can loot you or not and I don't know anyone else who would. The only people I know who "let others pass" can't PvP and really just hoping they are allowed to pass. lol

TLDR: ITT "Ignorance is bliss", as they say.

I certainly don't expect people to leave me alone, and neither will I do the same to my opponents. But I want the thrill of the battle, the test of skill to be the fun, not some stupid stones that will change people's behavior into something far less sporty than what we have now.

I disagree too with the statement that Cyrodiil is warfare, it is not. It is a teamsport. Some win, some lose. Cooperation and skill is essential for success and all are having fun.

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

wraith808

olemanwinter wrote: »

I've flip-flopped on my opinion so many times already in the last week. Long story short...I think maybe a "middle ground" is in order.

What if player-kills gave the victor 100% of the Tel Var stones the loser was carrying but on the losers end he only lost 1/2?

That still gives us "blood thirsty" PvP-types an incentive to seek out players to kill, but helps the less competitive players not feel so bad when they release back to their home base.

No, because that creates an inequity in the economy- one that people will exploit, in the same way as emperor farming.

Let's kill each other back and forth for TV stones.

I have 1000... you kill me, and get 1000 and I keep 500.

Then I kill you, and get 1000, and you lose 500.

In the end, I have 1500, instead of 1000 as I should, and you have 500, instead of zero.

Keep doing that ad nauseum.

wraith808

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I can take that one...

Cyrodiil is fighting with others for your alliance, IC is fighting for yourself to loot corpses (obviously you don't have the risk of actually looting corpses as that would be too scary for some) - the first has the veneer of a just war, the second has no such cause. One encourages and rewards teamwork, the latter rewards selfish play. That is how it 'feels'.

Corpse teabaggers are not representative of the majority... I hope.

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

And if I play IC and I kill someone and suddenly get 10k stones I'm going to feel like it's dirty money...

No, it's still a war simulator. Or... did you think that soldiers didn't take money, guns, and ammo from the people they killed? It's called looting and pillaging for a reason, and it's not because of muggings...

Of course, in war, there is a risk in looting. You have to expose yourself from your cushy location to get the loot. It reduces your awareness of the surroundings. It makes you immobile on a field where mobility keeps you alive. It takes time.

All of those things have been removed by the current system, so there is zero risk involved in getting the TV stones. If that were changed- if you had to weigh the risks vs. the reward of getting the TV stones after killing another player... that would change attitudes and behaviors.

And then if you make it all to the person that actually takes the risk... that would change a lot of behavior of the players themselves, as self-interest is the big reason that people become a part of gank squads.

wraith808

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Rinmaethodain

wraith808 wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I can take that one...

Cyrodiil is fighting with others for your alliance, IC is fighting for yourself to loot corpses (obviously you don't have the risk of actually looting corpses as that would be too scary for some) - the first has the veneer of a just war, the second has no such cause. One encourages and rewards teamwork, the latter rewards selfish play. That is how it 'feels'.

Corpse teabaggers are not representative of the majority... I hope.

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

And if I play IC and I kill someone and suddenly get 10k stones I'm going to feel like it's dirty money...

No, it's still a war simulator. Or... did you think that soldiers didn't take money, guns, and ammo from the people they killed? It's called looting and pillaging for a reason, and it's not because of muggings...

Of course, in war, there is a risk in looting. You have to expose yourself from your cushy location to get the loot. It reduces your awareness of the surroundings. It makes you immobile on a field where mobility keeps you alive. It takes time.

All of those things have been removed by the current system, so there is zero risk involved in getting the TV stones. If that were changed- if you had to weigh the risks vs. the reward of getting the TV stones after killing another player... that would change attitudes and behaviors.

And then if you make it all to the person that actually takes the risk... that would change a lot of behavior of the players themselves, as self-interest is the big reason that people become a part of gank squads.

This, exactly this. With that at least gankers backstabbing people who fight mobs and bosses will have to approach bodies after killing them and will have to expose themselfs to the mobs.

Tavore1138

olemanwinter wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But basically Cyro is a war simulator, IC feels like a street crime simulator where I hoped for a close quarters city skirmish simulator.

I strongly suggest you learn some history so you have a wider and more accurate view of what war is like.

Some things you may not be aware of.

- The soil that war is fought on effects everyone, not just soldiers in formation
(So PvP beyond siege/zerg warfare)
- 3rd parties move in to take advantage of distracted, desperate, and weakened combatants
(molag bal)
- Crime increases dramatically
(gankers)
- Losing sides often fracture into small skirmish group
(Small groups who give up on the cause and seek personal rewards/glory with the absence of an attainable victory)

As for looting corpses and war-vs-crime, how many soldiers came home from Europe in WW2 with german helmets, how many came home from the Pacific with Japanese swords.

Let's keep this simple. YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE YOUR STONES. And that's okay. I don't necessarily disagree.

But let's please stop saying the system treats people unequally, or that it's some dramatic move into the realm of unacceptable human behavior, or without the Tel Var system players are going to let you pass.

I'm not going to let you pass whether I can loot you or not and I don't know anyone else who would. The only people I know who "let others pass" can't PvP and really just hoping they are allowed to pass. lol

TLDR: ITT "Ignorance is bliss", as they say.

LOL - thanks for assuming I am uneducated

I am well aware that 'real' war has downsides and that looting (and indeed far worse crimes) are part of it. However as you have been pointing out, this is a game so we have the luxury of doing the 'fun' parts of war without descending into the worse things that war draws out of people when everyone's life is cheap and moral lines are blurred. If we start to create a game system that replicates the worst of human behaviour in real wartime then I really don't want to play!

But you are right I don't want to lose my stones any more than I want to lose gold or AP or XP to other players AND I don't really want to take yours or anyone else's either.

But some of us do let others pass, because it is a game - for example while riding to defend DC from a red attack I cam across a lone red taking on the Bruma dolmen. I could have attacked them, they could have attacked me - but we took on the dolmen together, each opened the chest and then went our separate ways. And then met again in battle at DC a few minutes later. Sometimes you can just be two players having fun in a game - not an option in this content as you rightly imply.

pmn100b16_ESO

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

Sentinel

As it stands in this DLC, the best way I've found to gain Tel Var stones is by running through the sewers. It's very much a PvE experience. While there are other alliance players about, you almost never have to worry about gankers as they can hardly even solo gank anymore. Additionally, because the mobs practically require people to be grouped up to be taken down, going around in small groups (Of 2-6) is pretty common.

I'll give an example. I duo'd the DC sewers with a friend of mine 4 times. Each time we would move closer inward into the sewers until a point we saw fit to turn back, and go home to put our tel var stones away. The first time, as we were just getting used to it, after we entered the second sewer level, we turned back and gained 600 tel var stones at the bank (including drops from the scamp sacks we offloaded at that time). The second, we got to the third level, came back, banked 800, third time, also third level, came back 1000 tel var. The fourth time, we got to the central area. We explored it a bit, and turned back. By the time we came back, we had found 2000 tel var stones in just one run. Each of us.

I'm saying this because doing PvE is the best way to gain the tel var stones, and even then, likely in small groups it's even better (Solo-ing is a bad idea though). The amount of PvP encounters were few and far in between. Any encounter we had with a large group of enemy players, we sneaked and hid until they passed. We did the same thing when we saw a sweeper. If I had to think about how many enemy players I ran into during our playthrough, it'd be somewhere about 7. Six were killed easily as they were outnumbered by the DC players and NPC mobs. The other one was trying to go solo in the sewers and was the really only PvP encounter we had. Given they held the attention of the mobs, they died easily as well. Not once were we ganked. Keep in mind, this is a pop locked server, and we were in a duo (though we did have radiant magelight up just in case).

We never once went into the districts, and only stayed in the sewers. Overall, the amount of Tel Var stones I've gained (per my acheives) has been 8100. The amount I've lost (per acheives) has been 1000. 95% due to PvE deaths.

If you're worried about losing tel var stones in the Imperial city, run through the sewers. Have a build that is survivable, and at least one experienced PvP member in your group. You gain more survivability with each member of your group, but are rewarded less for that. Once you get the hang of how the Sewers, tel var, and the base camps work, this is a very PvE friendly system.

The only problem now is to find a way so PvPers can actually obtain tel Var stones (as ESO live/Q&A) mentioned that the gains right now was almost null for PvPers). If there need to be more protections to PvE players from getting ganked or gate farmed, all that simply needs to be done is put an immunity status (which they talked about in the Q&A) around someone after moving through a door. Radiant magelight is also a good anti gank mechanic, and running with more than one person almost guarantees you will not be ganked by a lone person.

DDuke

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Tavore1138

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

The problem with allowing those of us who don't like this to flag ourselves as off limits is that those playing won't know until after they have killed us or been killed by us - it's actually not fair on the people that want to play this way.

The only way that you could do that would be to have either specific areas of IC that are 'gank 'n loot' areas (and maybe stones drop at a better rate, maybe 150% or 200% the other areas, there to give motivation for people to enter) OR to have campaigns flagged for each style of play so you know what you are getting into from the start - in fact if you did that you could extend the looting into Cyrodiil itself and if there are enough players in this game who want that then that campaign would be full... if it was always locked then that would suggest more campaigns needed to be loot play.... if it was always on 1 bar then that would tell us something else... as long as there was always one of each type of campaign then everyone could enjoy the content their way.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Uhm if you turn on the toggle it of course go both ways, you can't loot others either. Otherwise it would promote bad behavior. Also you shouldn't be able to turn in on or off at will. There should be at least a 48 hour limit on how often you could do it.

Also as I suggested, with the toggle on you cannot get the increased stone bonus from having many in your inventory, because you don't suffer the same risk. Risk vs. reward should be preserved.

DDuke

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Uhm if you turn on the toggle it of course go both ways, you can't loot others either. Otherwise it would promote bad behavior. Also you shouldn't be able to turn in on or off at will. There should be at least a 48 hour limit on how often you could do it.

Also as I suggested, with the toggle on you cannot get the increased stone bonus from having many in your inventory, because you don't suffer the same risk. Risk vs. reward should be preserved.

Aha, so they could just help some other untoggled player kill me?
Or would they be completely turned off from PvP altogether? Can they still see me in stealth in that case & jump at my location to alert allies?

In other words: are you asking for a PvE version of Imperial City, or how are you going to make that work?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Uhm if you turn on the toggle it of course go both ways, you can't loot others either. Otherwise it would promote bad behavior. Also you shouldn't be able to turn in on or off at will. There should be at least a 48 hour limit on how often you could do it.

Also as I suggested, with the toggle on you cannot get the increased stone bonus from having many in your inventory, because you don't suffer the same risk. Risk vs. reward should be preserved.

Aha, so they could just help some other untoggled player kill me?
Or would they be completely turned off from PvP altogether? Can they still see me in stealth in that case & jump at my location to alert allies?

In other words: are you asking for a PvE version of Imperial City, or how are you going to make that work?

Well an untoggled player should of course count as a mob for the purpose of calculating whether or not you lose stones. Which means if the untoggled players do the majority of damage, you lose no stones. Also since only the toggled players will have stone loot, if your group returns and kill the other group, you get all the stones back since all the stones are on a player that can lose them.

All the other questions are a bit silly...

DDuke

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Uhm if you turn on the toggle it of course go both ways, you can't loot others either. Otherwise it would promote bad behavior. Also you shouldn't be able to turn in on or off at will. There should be at least a 48 hour limit on how often you could do it.

Also as I suggested, with the toggle on you cannot get the increased stone bonus from having many in your inventory, because you don't suffer the same risk. Risk vs. reward should be preserved.

Aha, so they could just help some other untoggled player kill me?
Or would they be completely turned off from PvP altogether? Can they still see me in stealth in that case & jump at my location to alert allies?

In other words: are you asking for a PvE version of Imperial City, or how are you going to make that work?

Well an untoggled player should of course count as a mob for the purpose of calculating whether or not you lose stones. Which means if the untoggled players do the majority of damage, you lose no stones. Also since only the toggled players will have stone loot, if your group returns and kill the other group, you get all the stones back since all the stones are on a player that can lose them.

All the other questions are a bit silly...

Not really, I just find enormous flaws in your proposition.

If an "untoggled" player makes me lose stones either directly or indirectly without any chance of losing them himself, you bet I'd be pissed off, camping and teabagging that ***** wherever I see him & throwing the vilest of insults at his way.


Last thing I want to see is some scrub abusing a toggle mechanic to play risk free PvP, making those who decide to take the risk suffer. That's just cowardice.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

IC in its current form have very little team spirit or sport sense, it is frankly ugly to watch because of the negative emotions it creates.

Where have you seen this negative emotion other than on the boards as the arguments pro and con play out?

...or is that just hyperbole?

Agreed, I've played for several hours on pts and had a blast. I had near to 1000 stones at one point (probably from a player kill or several) and lost them at some point, I don't even remember when. Can't say I experienced any negative emotions at the gain or the loss. Personally I don't care much about how many stones I get. If I want stones I'll just sit in the sewers all day spawn camping npcs.

And that is both good and a problem. The system is good for a certain kind of player and bad for others. For the others the ganking become something extremely negative.

The best way to handle it is simply to allow people to choose whether or not they want to take part in the stone loss/gain part. And if you refrain from taking part, your stone gains from mobs should never have the multiplier because you don't take the risks.

If people are against this, then it is simply because they want to take stones from people who don't think it is fun or entertaining to have that kind of risk, and frankly that makes me question their personality.

Edit: The majority of the people on the PTS atm are probably people who like the idea of the loot system. But once it goes live things will change. The PTS right now is very close to how IC would be with a toggle available (except there would be many more defenseless people to kill on live).
Without a toggle the protests will explode after it goes live. Why not be prepared for it?

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

Uhm if you turn on the toggle it of course go both ways, you can't loot others either. Otherwise it would promote bad behavior. Also you shouldn't be able to turn in on or off at will. There should be at least a 48 hour limit on how often you could do it.

Also as I suggested, with the toggle on you cannot get the increased stone bonus from having many in your inventory, because you don't suffer the same risk. Risk vs. reward should be preserved.

Aha, so they could just help some other untoggled player kill me?
Or would they be completely turned off from PvP altogether? Can they still see me in stealth in that case & jump at my location to alert allies?

In other words: are you asking for a PvE version of Imperial City, or how are you going to make that work?

Well an untoggled player should of course count as a mob for the purpose of calculating whether or not you lose stones. Which means if the untoggled players do the majority of damage, you lose no stones. Also since only the toggled players will have stone loot, if your group returns and kill the other group, you get all the stones back since all the stones are on a player that can lose them.

All the other questions are a bit silly...

Not really, I just find enormous flaws in your proposition.

If an "untoggled" player makes me lose stones either directly or indirectly without any chance of losing them himself, you bet I'd be pissed off, camping and teabagging that ***** wherever I see him & throwing the vilest of insults at his way.


Last thing I want to see is some scrub abusing a toggle mechanic to play risk free PvP, making those who decide to take the risk suffer. That's just cowardice.

The idea is that if the person who don't want to take part in looting or getting looted should not cause stone loss in active players either.

For example, you have a safe player who heals an active team mate so the team mate wins, you lose no stones and the active team mate gains nothing. Or you have a group of 4 NBs who gank you but 2 of them are not active, you lose no stones and so on.

You could turn it even more severe and say if someone without risk healed someone with risk, or did any damage to you, you cannot lose stones at all but then it would be really difficult to get any loot ever.

It is a good question, maybe the best solution is simply to have loot and non loot servers.... So the 2 different outlooks don't have to get in the way of each other.

Paulhewhewria

Nikolaj, I think your wasting your time with DDuke he seems to not even want to consider a PVE side of things by the way he's been acting.There should be a middle ground for both PVE and PVP in this discussion after all we're all players here.I get that this is pretty much the first real piece of content for the pvp community and many feel that PVEs should put up or shut up,but can't we find a middle ground?

byrom101b16_ESO

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

This system will poison the pvp community and split people. Pvp where you can loot others always change behavior into something really nasty and evil, attracting a kind of player that honestly this game has not catered to until now.

The kind of player that doesn't pvp because they enjoy the challenge and the fun of testing your skill against others, but rather the kind of player that get his fun from destroying other peoples fun.

When a game allows the kind of people to have the kind of fun they crave the community goes to hell and what we have now will be lost.

Again we see ZoS not understanding the social dynamics of their player base and this dlc will end up costing them a lot of their current income from the game.

This is exactly what happens in every iteration of PK looting in MMOs, and by the reports above Zenimax didn't have enough common sense to put in even basic measures to prevent loading-screen and unavoidable choke point ganking.

I mean this is an OLD issue with MMOs and is universally hated except by griefers... but somehow they didn't see it coming... WHAT? Is this for real????

Whatever they do, this is going to be a gankers and griefers playground and all the primary PvE'rs are going to HATE IT.

Add to that the top tiers of crafting are currently behind a PvP paywall when this kind of play is always a more PvE focus player thing?????

Patch appropriately before live or kill your game like Funcom killed Age of Conan. Learn from the graveyard of MMO history Zenimax - you have been warned!

Nebthet78

I am sorry, this IS going to be a wall of text.

Zos, please do not remove it, as it contains lots of evidence and reasons why players are against the current TV stone system and why it needs to change and why we are seeing what we are seeing on the PTS right now. Please consider everything in it.

[

DDuke wrote: »

And if some people do get that toggle and I happen to kill them, but get zero reward for that...

You bet I'm going to teabag those cowards & instagib them every occasion I get with my 624 CPs.

I don't tolerate someone laughing behind a screen "haa haa you cant get my stones, but I can get yours"


How's that for "drawing out the worst of human nature"?

This, I consider trolling and griefing behavior. This is the WORST type of player in any MMORPG as this type of player only gets off on ruining the game for other players and they go out of their way to do it.

The majority of players in an MMO are no like this, but this small minority of these type of players go a long way to ruining MMOs for others. It is not a mechanic that should be encouraged.

No where did Nikola state that when a person is toggled, they would get loot from killing another player or that the untoggled player would be penalized for dying at the hands of another player.

In an article by Wired, the first paragraph reads as follows:

"Pwnage, zerging, phat lewts — online gaming has birthed a rich lexicon. But none, perhaps, deserves our attention as much as the notion of the griefer. Broadly speaking, a griefer is an online version of the spoilsport — someone who takes pleasure in shattering the world of play itself. Not that griefers don't like online games. It's just that what they most enjoy about those games is making other players not enjoy them. They are corpse campers, noob baiters, kill stealers, ninja looters. Their work is complete when the victims log off in a huff."
http://archive.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/magazine/16-02/mf_goons?currentPage=2

I couldn't agree more with this statement.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

First of all yes you can compare a social game like ESO with real life. Its human interaction and this behavioral patterns are the same as in real life and if the social environment reward negative actions the social environment become negative. That is one of the reasons why you have so many problems in large parts of the world, because of an overall unfair way people treat each other.

The devs have the power to channel social interaction in a positive or negative way in games, and so far it has been positive in ESO simply because no one lost anything. So PvP was more like a game of sport than real nasty war, which is a good thing.

If you made the loot system a toggle, then you would avoid all the social damage of the system because each person who can loot or can be looted all have actively set themselves up for that gameplay while those that cannot stand it can still take part in the action in IC but avoid the part that frankly make them uncomfortable.

Griefers cannot grief because everyone they CAN loot has selected to be lootable and therefore cannot be mentally harmed by the action of the person who defeats them.

The only thing they need to change with a toggle system is that the increased gain of stones depending on how many you have on you should NEVER apply to those without the loot option on because they take less risk, they should gain less reward.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

For sure there are many [word not inserted due to wanting to avoid moderation] in this or any game, just as there are in life - my contention is that I *think* that this type of PvP is possible more likely to bring out the [word not inserted due to wanting to avoid unnecessary offence] in people.

But as you say without hard numbers it is just speculation - but based on a cynical view on human nature that bad acts are directly proportional to the opportunity to carry out bad acts.

But we will always come back to the base truth that some players want this and others don't - there isn't an inherent right or wrong in that on either side.

I am finding the arguments regarding comparing the MMO to real life and the psychology of the game players and the roles and how they choose to play very interesting and accurate.

SuraklinePrime was talking about needing numbers to truly speculate.

While I haven't found anything regarding how much of a mass exodus players make from games when this type of a system is installed, I did find this very interesting article the other day titles "Motivations of Play in MMORPGs".

The article, having used a survey of 3200 MMO players from many different MMOs, breaks apart the different psychological play styles of these players.

I found it particularly interesting that griefing was mentioned in the subcategory of Achievement oriented players, under Competition.

"Competition:
Gamers who score high on this subcomponent enjoy the rush and experience of
competing with other gamers on the battlefield or economy.
This includes both fair, constrained challenges - such as dueling or structured
PvP/RvR, as well as unprovoked acts - such as scamming or griefing. Gamers who score high
on this subcomponent enjoy the power of beating or dominating other players"

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-2.pdf


To take this further, then the research and definitions of griefing in MMOs is stated as the following:

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.[2]"

Methods of griefing differ from game to game. What might be considered griefing in one area of a game may even be an intended function or mechanic in another area. Common methods may include but are not limited to:
(I will list the ones I am currently seeing happening in IC)

- Camping at a corpse or spawn area to repeatedly kill players as they resurrect, to prevent them from being able to play, when this behavior is not intentionally permitted.
- Intentionally using glitches or exploits to halt the progress of a Co-op or Multiplayer game (such as destroying or blocking off access to items without which other players cannot finish the game).
- Intentional friendly fire or deliberately performing actions detrimental to team members' game performance, including wasting key game elements, colluding with the opposition, and giving false information.
- Any method of reversing another player's progress, such as destroying or modifying other players' creations in sandbox games like Minecraft and Terraria.
- Faking extreme incompetence with the intent of hurting teammates.[6]
- Blocking another player's way so they cannot move to or from a particular area, or access an in-game resource (such as a non-player character)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer


So, as it pertains to IC, which in my opinion is basically a PVP Griefer's paradise, we are seeing the following:

- Camping spawn locations/gates so that any player coming out of the gates or returning to the gates has very little chance to survive, thus losing their Tel Var stones.

- This follows to number two as it is an exploit when players are killing other players when they are loading into the zone. The player loading into the zone has no chance to defend themselves what so ever.

- The current set up of IC promotes friendly fire griefing insofar as you are going to get players who allow their alliance members to die to other players so that you can take their stones. This is in close relation to Faking extreme incompetence with the intent to hurt your teammates.

- The Tel Var stone system in itsself is a griefing mechanism as it allows other players to reverse another players progress. This progress is the removal of Tel Var stones which are the main required component needed to create V15/V16 armor. This armor, while it gives some small increases, may be the tipping point to allow a lot of players who currently cannot do pledges and other parts of the PVE game a chance to actually do so because it may push them to that survival point. The looting of the Tel Var stones from other players, is a direct block to their progress. Gaining the materials via dungeons that only have a small chance to drop from bosses and minibosses and when deconstructed might only give 1 is not a valid alternative.

- Camping also falls into the Blocking another players way so that cannot move to or from a particular area or access game resources, especially since this is happening in a lot of entrance ways.


The wiki article goes on to state:
"Many subscription-based games actively oppose griefers, since their behavior can drive away business.[14] It is common for developers to release server-side upgrades and patches to annul griefing methods. Many online games employ gamemasters that reprimand offenders. Some use a crowdsourcing approach, where players can report griefing. Malicious players are then red-flagged, and are then dealt with at a gamemaster's discretion. As many as 25% of customer support calls to companies operating online games deal specifically with griefing.[2]"

Most of the other big game companies like Blizzard, Ultima Online, EverQuest, etc have actually set up rules regarding griefing behavior, while another like Eve Online made griefing a part of this game and with some very dismaying results.

An abstract of a research paper "Ganking, corpse camping and ninja looting from the perception of the MMORPG community: acceptable behavior or unacceptable griefing?": states the following.

"Unrestrained, griefing could lead to a downward spiral of the number of people playing Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG)s, and possibly the death of smaller MMORPGs. Big game publishers may not wish to risk supporting the genre."
http://ieconference.org/ie2013/index-page_id=289.html

For the most part, ESO has done well to keep a tight leash on griefers, but with the release of Imperial City and the Tel Var stone system as it currently stands, they just created the Griefer's Paradise.

In Cyrodiil, we have a war of Alliances. Each side against the other, but EVERYONE earns AP, some slower than other depending how well they play or if they get Alliance bonuses. But, for the most part, every one is happy. Everyone gets something for the time spent. Everyone earns and progresses.

In Imperial City, what you earn, you do not necessarily keep, especially if you are not great at PVP or are a PVE player with no or little PVP experience. They system is set up to reward the worst kind of players in any MMO. The griefers who camp spawn locations and gates and the huge zerg of players.

PVE and poor/newbish PVP players are not going to earn very many stones if any at all because they will simply be overwhelmed by the number and skill of other players and especially the griefers who camp at spawn/resurrection/gate locations. If it is this bad on PTS, just think how bad it is going to be on Live.

There is no doubt that this IS going to block any progression/advancement for these same players as they are not going to be able to gain enough Tel Var stones to purchase enough of the mats from the vendors to be able to upgrade their armor.
This system is going to cause a good number of these players to rage quit, especially with the grind that is required to get the new motifs and amount of materials needed for V16 armor.

And yes!! Armor advancement has pretty much been gated behind Imperial City as the chances to gain materials are beyond low outside the zone.

So what has to be done?

A mechanism MUST be put into place to allow ALL player types to enjoy Imperial City without having to worry about camping from griefers and having the "rewards/progression/advancement" stolen from them.

Yes, there are boxes that you get from quests that have stones in them. Once player said it is around 300 stones earned.
Depending on how long it takes to do this quest, perhaps the number of stones earned has to be increased to 3000.

However, after the amount of research I have done into player behavior and how it can ruin games and cause harm to the overall community and revenue loss to the Company by allowing/implementing bad mechanics that reward poor behavior, and especially how the Tel Var stones are tied into player progression (Armor), there NEEDS to be a TOGGLE so that those who do not agree with the players looting other players system can enjoy the content part without having to worry about losing almost everything and rage quiting because of it. This toggle option would have to last 48hrs before you can change it again to prevent abuse and all stone multipliers will need to be removed. You also cannot earn any stones from killing other players.

That, or like other Big MMO's you need to create a No Looting other players server.

Yes, IC is meant for PVPers. But PVP does NOT have to mean, must loot other players to have fun. If you can't have fun from this zone without looting other players, then maybe Eve Online is for you.

ZOS: This first week we have seen what you intended for the Imperial City and the looting system. Might I suggest, next week you implement a 10% looting from other players mechanism as a test to see how player dynamics change in IC. It would be interesting to see the results. Will there be less griefing, zerging and camping because there is less reward for that type of behavior? Will that change allow poor/newbie PVP and PVE players the chance they need to actually enjoy IC and gain reasonable amount of Tel Var stones?