What is all this shield stacking stuff?

DeanTheCat

Okay... Originally only wanted to point how how to properly shield stack to the OP, didn't expect the thread to get so... heated (Or rather, I should have expected it).

In any case, seeing as the debate is already well and alive, let me tell you what is possible with the current stacking (Nerfing Regen and Healing Ward will fix most of the issues). I can use 12k base (After execute bonus) Killer's Blades (The hardest hitting execute in the game) on a Healing Ward spamming caster, and have the execute being unable to even shatter the shield, whereas on any other target, blocking or no, they would have been killed instantly.

To reach this level of damage with a Killer's Blade, 4k weapon damage is pretty much required. To get this high a value in weapon damage requires Divines on your armor, along with every single set bonus dedicated to weapon damage and the use of Dual Wield. This means that this 4k weapon damage build has zero sustainability in combat. In addition, due to the lack of stamina based shields (Not expecting any, just stating this for context), the Magicka-based shield stacker gets to preserve high defense that lasts even when CC-ed along with high damage. Traditional stamina based defenses instantly fail the moment the user is CC-ed. In the case of the Shield Stacker, his shields are still active when he gets CC-ed.

With the current insane rate of regeneration thanks to the removal of regen softcaps and the CP system, decent Sorcerers in Cyrodiil will have sufficient stamina regeneration to instantly break CCs the moment they are applied, which means the attacker only has a 1.3 second window (1 Global Cooldown Cycle) to break whatever remains of the shield before the massive healing ward is applied rendering any further attempts for the next 5 seconds completely pointless.

The difficulty of bursting down the shield + health within 1.3 seconds out of stealth is further compounded by the fact that simply by having a shield active, the caster is unable to be Critted till the shields are shattered. As the average critical % for most decent damage focused characters hovers round 40-60%, the effective strength of shields is 20-30% higher then the stated tooltip value, due to Crit negation. It's also the reason why Nightblades hate shields with a passion, due to a huge part of their damage being based around Crits. In addition, almost all stamina based DoTs are bleeds (Poison Bow Morphs, Unstable Flame and Engulfing Flames are the exeptions), which shields passively negate.

There is only a couple of overtuned shields at the moment that were fine pre-1.6 and became broken OP in 1.6. Those 2 are Healing Ward and Hardened Ward. Removal of softcaps is the main reason behind the current sheer power of the shields. I may also add that pre-1.6, recasting a shield before it shattered only refeshed the duration, but did not refresh the value of the shield. Food for thought.

Novustratum

Lucky28 wrote: »

Well that's just not true. you can use a distance closer, CC or Snipe them with Arrows.

Nightblades are in fact worse.

I don't really think anything is "OP" in this game to be honest. it's just a lot of it requires thinking which is an aspect of the current game i really enjoy.

I don't know how sorcerers play out on the PC as I only play this on the PS4 but have you seen how far they can rapidly teleport over and over again until they are so far away they're out of sight? I'd love to know what distance closers you speak of because they are way out of bow range in the blink of an eye spamming teleport, and you certainly can't mount and chase because you're in combat, and for me as a NB they are certainly out of ambush range.

A friend and I literally tried to run after a sorc teleporting away following their trail of lightning balls left behind and he was so far gone across the map in seconds that it was ridiculous. I haven't played a sorc myself, but I'm pretty sure that teleport uses magicka and it seems to use very little because the sorcs we see use it in Cyrodiil spam it like its free and it's used so rapidly there isn't even a second to react to it to try to snare them or bow attack.

Again, this is on console and I don't know how this plays out on PC.

swanvalkyrie

I am the same, as soon as I read this and got home from work I made the restoration staff my second bar and destructor the other. Still getting used to the whole magicka shield not working for melee... Died still fairly quick because I only had conjured ward shield and the annulment one. Don't have resto staff that high to have the healing shield. But I'm
Sure I will get used to it all. I guess I'll have to put all my attribute pints from health into magicka now

Zsymon

leepalmer95 wrote: »

and this is why sorc's need nerf.

Sorcs don't need a nerf at all, just remove shield stacking. Have each shield you cast remove the previous shield, that way the problem is solved and there was no need to nerf any class skills. Then Sorcs can still choose to cast Hardened Ward when their health is high, and Healing Ward when their health is low, but at least they won't stack anymore to become invincible and full-healed each time.

Talongar

Enough with this nerf non sense lol....
every class needs a nerf.. there I said it

@swanvalkyrie still here 1 hour to go lol

swanvalkyrie

@Talongar Lucky you've got an hour, ive got 8 now hahaha

Lucky28

Novustratum wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Well that's just not true. you can use a distance closer, CC or Snipe them with Arrows.

Nightblades are in fact worse.

I don't really think anything is "OP" in this game to be honest. it's just a lot of it requires thinking which is an aspect of the current game i really enjoy.

I don't know how sorcerers play out on the PC as I only play this on the PS4 but have you seen how far they can rapidly teleport over and over again until they are so far away they're out of sight? I'd love to know what distance closers you speak of because they are way out of bow range in the blink of an eye spamming teleport, and you certainly can't mount and chase because you're in combat, and for me as a NB they are certainly out of ambush range.

A friend and I literally tried to run after a sorc teleporting away following their trail of lightning balls left behind and he was so far gone across the map in seconds that it was ridiculous. I haven't played a sorc myself, but I'm pretty sure that teleport uses magicka and it seems to use very little because the sorcs we see use it in Cyrodiil spam it like its free and it's used so rapidly there isn't even a second to react to it to try to snare them or bow attack.

Again, this is on console and I don't know how this plays out on PC.

I don't know what distance closer they use, I only play as a sorc in PvP atm. All i know is it happens to me all the time when i try and bolt escape away (ball of lightning rather) distance closer CC or get sniped (lethal arrow/focused Aim) so i know for sure it's a thing.

I had heard that people are able to transfer their PC characters over to the console version of the game.

rfennell_ESO

Talongar wrote: »

You think? Thanks man, Im trying to be a good use to my team ... Im tired of being number one target dead cus they sense im squishy lol .. Thanks @rfennell_ESO

Healing ward is likely much better for your team than using 2 destru staves is.

Keep in mind you can put sorc abilities on the resto bar.

The only AE you are going to use from destruction staff line is elemental ring anyways. On a sorc I often didn't run any destruction staff abilities at all.

Novustratum

@Lucky28
I'm thinking it might be console latency issues connecting with the NA megaserver that I see it work that way. However, when at least 2 of my friends that play on console with me see the same thing happening I don't know exactly how much latency actually plays into it. There certainly are abilities to CC someone at range, the problem is that we will see a sorc teleport so quickly multiple times to such great distance away within literally a 1 second timeframe that we don't even get to use CC to prevent them from getting away and even if I wanted to get in a range attack, by the time I press the button to weapon swap to a bow, they're gone.

That's why I was saying... Maybe on PC you see it happen differently but on console it's instantaneous.

Zlater

Novustratum wrote: »

@Zlater
I'm a Nightblade.

@DeanTheCat
Sorcerers are ridiculous OP. It's funny because I hear all this talk about NB's being OP because of how fast they can kill something, not the case with a sorc played right. The most annoying thing is when I break their shields quick enough that they don't refresh them and I start pegging away at their actual health, I watch them teleport away and within seconds they're halfway across the map. If that's not cheese I don't know what is. At least when Nightblades stealth away there is an opportunity to find them and many things can be done to flush them out. As for a sorc? Nope, once they're gone, they're gone and all you can do is stand there staring at them get further into the distance.

Almost every player asking for a sorcerer nerf is a nightblade. Nb's are really annoying, they are THE pvp class atm. The best counter for that class is a sorcerer, with defensive rune and hardened ward its hard to kill them.

How do you counter a sorc? you can try talons, or fear or any cc, shield stacking is active mitigation, just make him inactive and you can turn him into a bag of flesh.

swanvalkyrie

I rememember my old character was a NB, on PC... And people were complaining about it

Sneaky-Snurr

With all the things said here. I concur whole-heartedly with what @DeanTheCat says. What s/he said is very spot on. That's how shield-stackers (especially sorcs) dominate their opponent(s). Sorcs can withstand humongous physical and magical damage just by shield stacks compared to a DK tank (which isn't as tanky as said Sorcs) and are still able to dish out incredible damage. And that sentence itself sounds ridiculous already and you know it.
I'm very positive that most of the players have found themselves cowering away from shield-stackers (I myself included, stam build btw) because it is just impossible to beat them regardless of different strategies. Yes, I have forced myself into using resto staff as well and it leaves me being a hybrid which is somewhat lackluster in pvp even against a pure stam/magicka build. I couldn't heal much nor could I deal decent damage. Similarly, being a stam build with resto staff isn't optimal at all.

Honestly, I feel that shields shouldn't be able to stack. That's another point I agree with @Zsymon. Which comes to mind, with all the Major and Minor addition, why not apply the same concept into shields as well? At least the shield abilities themselves aren't nerfed and shield-stackers can stack one of each Major and Minor shields at one time. That's a win-win situation to me. Everyone's happy.

swanvalkyrie

My question is... Why is this only happening now? When it's been on PC for only a year?

Leandor

Quite simple to answer: this type of strategy developed only after removal of softcaps (1.6 update) and with substantial amounts of CP. It has been under criticism since it emerged.

EDIT: Gah, *** autocorrect...

swanvalkyrie

Oh really? So what CP should I actually be endorsing it into then? Normally I'm always picking the same one

Zlater

I'm pretty over all the nerf-head night blades trying to normalise every class out there. You already know how to kill a sorc; CC, rolldodge, interrupts and gap closers. There I just gave you the keys again.

If you still can't figure it out then it's not a problem with the game, please stop whining and L2P

swanvalkyrie wrote: »

My question is... Why is this only happening now? When it's been on PC for only a year?

It's always been a thing, it has just been over-shadowed by the DK god mode and now what is the Night Blade stupid crazy Dps Burst 2sec kill everything but a sorc. Peeps aren't willing to try to work around it, so they have a cry on the forums instead; that is until ZOS goes "urgh... fine whatever -.-"

Leandor

swanvalkyrie wrote: »

Oh really? So what CP should I actually be endorsing it into then? Normally I'm always picking the same one

Bastion. General number of CP distributed (each one in mage constellations increases magicka a bit).

swanvalkyrie

Thanks!

notimetocare

BigTone wrote: »

Bwahaha!

Any decent stam build can kill a sorc. L2P

Best joke of the day...wait...your serious? Aw. it is so cute.

Can kill? Yes. Good stam build v good sorc, its a laughable end for the stam build

lolzbuckets

So I think it's worth pointing out that this IS an Elder Scrolls game. With enough time and forethought, every single one of us can be a tiny god. I'll grant you that the classes more-or-less designed to be melee/tanks/healers will generally not be PVP gods, but an enormous part of PVP in this game is the group aspect of it, and if you try to convince me that a tanky Dragonknight or Templar paired up with a Nightblade or a Sorcerer is not better than any of those things by itself, I will laugh your arguments away.

But it's also worth pointing out that this game allows for a fairly rare degree of customization in builds, maybe only exceeded by one other MMO off the top of my head, and...if you really and truly can't figure out how to kill an entire class with that enormous kit, maybe you're spending too much time optimizing. Nightblades have CC spells that nobody ever includes in builds because they're not optimal choices for the generalist, but seriously, if one particular class build is wrecking your *** every time and it's everywhere in PVP, why would you not specialize?

Better still, call in a friend. Set up an ambush. Get creative outside of your character sheet. Treat PVP less like a duel and more like warfare, because - surprise! - IT IS!~

AND THAT IS AWESOME!

Nerfing characters for behaving too much like they're characters in an Elder Scrolls game seems ridiculous to me. But if I had to propose a nerf that might actually help this issue, it would be to remove the ability of shields to grant crit immunity. After all, there's an armor trait for that already, and if the sorcerer is having such problems with being shredded by nightblades that they decide they need to get hit less by crits, maybe they'll start investing in that instead of extra Mundus buffs.

I'd like to see the power level continue to increase the way it has been, with softcaps being removed for example, because it forces people to get creative instead of just letting one class steamroll indiscriminately. There shouldn't be a "best armor trait." Everyone says it's Divines, and currently, for almost every situation, that's pretty true. I'd like to see that change. I want to see more creativity. I want cookie cutters to suck. I wanna get wrecked in PVP by some random janky build that doesn't seem like it should have worked, but because they itemized in a way that complements their skill set, it totally does. I want to see some gear sets that change up the way skills work in broad and confusing ways that potentially unbalance the game, like an 8-piece set bonus that makes all your abilities cost stamina and scale off of magicka, or vice versa.

I WANNA SEE SOME CRAZY *** AND DIE LAUGHING ABOUT IT.

lolzbuckets

I'd also like those 10-piece sets to have more than a 5-piece set bonus, but the idea of being able to get 3 full set bonuses has its own appeal as well...

Joy_Division

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Okay... Originally only wanted to point how how to properly shield stack to the OP, didn't expect the thread to get so... heated (Or rather, I should have expected it).

In any case, seeing as the debate is already well and alive, let me tell you what is possible with the current stacking (Nerfing Regen and Healing Ward will fix most of the issues). I can use 12k base (After execute bonus) Killer's Blades (The hardest hitting execute in the game) on a Healing Ward spamming caster, and have the execute being unable to even shatter the shield, whereas on any other target, blocking or no, they would have been killed instantly.

This is false. A dodge-roll spammer will not get hit at all by Killer's Blade, Executioner, or Mage's Fury. Next patch a cloaked NB will be able to avoid all of those plus the all mighty Jesus Beam. Also I have had blocking targets not die to Mage's Fury.

Emma_Overload

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Try Conjured Ward, morphed into Hardened Ward. Then after casting it, cast Annulment (Harness if you have low magicka regen, Dampen if you have high magicka regen). Those two added together gives you around 25k shields vs magical attacks and 15k shields vs physical attacks.

Fun right? Now, let's make it a bit better. When you are low on health, pop a Healing Ward for a 16-18k shield, then cast Hardened Ward for another 15k shield, then add in Annulment. That's round 32k shields vs physical attacks, and 47k shields vs magical attacks. In addition, when that Healing Ward fades away, it heals you for the complete value of the remaining shield strength.

For complete and utter overkill, add in Spiked Bone Shield for an additional 6k shields vs physical attacks with 33% damage return, and for the heck of it, Reviving Barrier, which gives a 25k shield as well as a 23k heal. So potentially you could have 63k shields vs physical damage and 67k shields vs magical attacks.

Don't forget, having a shield active negates critical hits, so enjoy being a literal walking god as long as you keep those shields up. And if anything threatens you, just bolt (Make sure you use Ball of Lightning!) away and drop mines. Heck, add in /laugh if you feel like it. Add in CP into reduced break free cost and round 1k stamina regen and nobody will ever be able to CC you for long! Break every single stun tossed at you with impunity!

Last but not least, get Nirnhoned on your armor and use Boundless Storm. You get to shock and reveal nearby enemies and due to nirnhoned, even if your shields are down, you get 50% damage mitigation vs magical attacks!

and this is why sorc's need nerf.

Nonsense. Shield stacking only works like that when your enemy is to too dumb or distracted to keep attacking you every second. I've never had any success stacking more than two shields in high level PvE because tough mobs will have wiped off your 1st shield by the time you cast the 3rd one.

In PvP, if you just stand there watching your enemy re-apply 6 shields, trust me NO NERF is enough to save your n00b butt!

swanvalkyrie

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Try Conjured Ward, morphed into Hardened Ward. Then after casting it, cast Annulment (Harness if you have low magicka regen, Dampen if you have high magicka regen). Those two added together gives you around 25k shields vs magical attacks and 15k shields vs physical attacks.

Fun right? Now, let's make it a bit better. When you are low on health, pop a Healing Ward for a 16-18k shield, then cast Hardened Ward for another 15k shield, then add in Annulment. That's round 32k shields vs physical attacks, and 47k shields vs magical attacks. In addition, when that Healing Ward fades away, it heals you for the complete value of the remaining shield strength.

For complete and utter overkill, add in Spiked Bone Shield for an additional 6k shields vs physical attacks with 33% damage return, and for the heck of it, Reviving Barrier, which gives a 25k shield as well as a 23k heal. So potentially you could have 63k shields vs physical damage and 67k shields vs magical attacks.

Don't forget, having a shield active negates critical hits, so enjoy being a literal walking god as long as you keep those shields up. And if anything threatens you, just bolt (Make sure you use Ball of Lightning!) away and drop mines. Heck, add in /laugh if you feel like it. Add in CP into reduced break free cost and round 1k stamina regen and nobody will ever be able to CC you for long! Break every single stun tossed at you with impunity!

Last but not least, get Nirnhoned on your armor and use Boundless Storm. You get to shock and reveal nearby enemies and due to nirnhoned, even if your shields are down, you get 50% damage mitigation vs magical attacks!

and this is why sorc's need nerf.

Nonsense. Shield stacking only works like that when your enemy is to too dumb or distracted to keep attacking you every second. I've never had any success stacking more than two shields in high level PvE because tough mobs will have wiped off your 1st shield by the time you cast the 3rd one.

In PvP, if you just stand there watching your enemy re-apply 6 shields, trust me NO NERF is enough to save your n00b butt!

Six shields? I've only got three and I was still dying on a group dungeon boss....... Was wayrest sewers, and it was level 27 to my v3!!!

Novustratum

@Zlater
I'm not asking for a sorc nerf, I'm trying to point out their ridiculous teleporting once you beat their shields down. I know what to use to CC them...when they're in range.

My issue is less with their shields and more with their instant multiple teleports nobody seems to be addressing. As I've mentioned before, and this is on console (PS4), sorcerers will teleport away multiple times literally within a second, well out of range of any CC like agony, ambush, or any bow attacks.... and then they keep on going. I can literally see their teleport trailing well out of graphically viewable distance with no way to catch them.

Even if I get the jump on them and CC them first, once they break CC, teleporting seems to be their panic button to avoid death as soon as the shields fail.

A stealthed nightblade at least has a chance to be found somewhere in the immediate vicinity before anyone wants to complain that Nightblades just stealth to avoid death.

You said you play on PC... Is teleportation a slow thing with time to react to on PC? Because it certainly isn't on console.

Zlater

@lolzbuckets shields can be critical, that was nerved in 1.5 I think. What you're saying is already happening ;P

@Novustratum I do think the bolt escape is a really strong skill and as such it has already seen a number of nerfs in the past. If I want to see it nerved is another question. I believe the upcoming nerf is actually too much, please remember bolt escape IS meant to be an escape tool, how sorcs are using it is exactly as the name suggests it should, why turn it into 'set yourself up for a gap closer zap'? This is also the skill that makes the class unique and worth playing, without it there'd really be no reason to play a sorc now that negate is useless. I totally agree that it's really strong and it is annoying, but it's the only standout thing that makes the class fun. Soon it won't be useful and its kinda sad you know, I know you probably don't care too much about a class other than your own, but I assure you, you won't see me crying for an Nb nerf.

swanvalkyrie

I saw someone on console that instead of running they turned into a ball of light and moved forward quick, and then did it again and again and then was gone... Is that bolt escape?

DeanTheCat

swanvalkyrie wrote: »

I saw someone on console that instead of running they turned into a ball of light and moved forward quick, and then did it again and again and then was gone... Is that bolt escape?

Yes, that's bolt escape, specifically the Ball of Lightning morph. The balls also absorbs all spell projectiles directed at the caster. The other morph stuns and deals damage. Combine it with shields... You get the idea.

Zlater wrote: »

@lolzbuckets shields can be critical, that was nerved in 1.5 I think. What you're saying is already happening ;P

@Novustratum I do think the bolt escape is a really strong skill and as such it has already seen a number of nerfs in the past. If I want to see it nerved is another question. I believe the upcoming nerf is actually too much, please remember bolt escape IS meant to be an escape tool, how sorcs are using it is exactly as the name suggests it should, why turn it into 'set yourself up for a gap closer zap'? This is also the skill that makes the class unique and worth playing, without it there'd really be no reason to play a sorc now that negate is useless. I totally agree that it's really strong and it is annoying, but it's the only standout thing that makes the class fun. Soon it won't be useful and its kinda sad you know, I know you probably don't care too much about a class other than your own, but I assure you, you won't see me crying for an Nb nerf.

Shields cannot be Critted. Your information is faulty. In addition, bolt escape or shield stacking alone was never a problem. The problem only exists when you use both of them together in addition to high Sorc damage and the fact that a lot of Sorcs love to cower in mines.

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Okay... Originally only wanted to point how how to properly shield stack to the OP, didn't expect the thread to get so... heated (Or rather, I should have expected it).

In any case, seeing as the debate is already well and alive, let me tell you what is possible with the current stacking (Nerfing Regen and Healing Ward will fix most of the issues). I can use 12k base (After execute bonus) Killer's Blades (The hardest hitting execute in the game) on a Healing Ward spamming caster, and have the execute being unable to even shatter the shield, whereas on any other target, blocking or no, they would have been killed instantly.

This is false. A dodge-roll spammer will not get hit at all by Killer's Blade, Executioner, or Mage's Fury. Next patch a cloaked NB will be able to avoid all of those plus the all mighty Jesus Beam. Also I have had blocking targets not die to Mage's Fury.

You can hit a dodge roller. You can time the hit so that it comes in the last 0.3 seconds of the roll (Where they have 0 immunity) or use undodgeable attacks. In addition, as I have mentioned in the full post you quoted, stamina based defenses (Block/Dodge) instantly fail when the user gets CC-ed. If your shield failed to work when you get CC-ed, I'm sure you (and all sorcs) will be screaming bloody murder.

Also, Mage's Fury is a execute with an AoE component along with a 28m range. Why would it be comparable to a purely Single Target melee execute?

swanvalkyrie

Ah that's I'll have to try the first morph then

Zlater

@DeanTheCat let me just try to understand what you are crying about: You are upset because a Dps sorcerer can usually out tank and kite your crazy burst damage as a night blade?

I don't really get what the problem is here, are you saying sorcerers like the other classes are just SUPPOSED to fall over and die when ever a nightblade ganker bursts them?

You must either choose an anti sorcerer nightblade or an anti everything else nightblade. Although it seems pretty obvious to choose, I think you still want both. Sorcs are fine against anything sure, but our sustainable time in combat is the most limited of all of the classes, that's why we need to get in and get out so obsurdley quickly. And that's why we are always streaking. A slow escape = dead obviously. Let me get back, are sorcs just supposed to lay down and die for you?