So now that Detect Pots will no longer work against Cloak in 1.7

Xael

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

Erock25

Xael wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

He was saying that while stealthed he can land a Wrecking Blow from the front against someone using RML without being seen. Out of stealth was a little confusing way of saying from stealth. I will say that this is the same experience I have as well. Did you ever post your video tests @Xael of RML radius? I would be interested to see it, because my in game experience of the ability is that I get hit by melee range attacks (5m) without detecting the stealther/cloaker at all while running RML. You've seen it yourself all over the boards how nearly everyone (besides NB people for some odd reason) declaring that RML has a terrible radius and it may have to do with high rates of movement speed and latency. Your experience with RML is much much different from mine.

Xael

Erock25 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

He was saying that while stealthed he can land a Wrecking Blow from the front against someone using RML without being seen. Out of stealth was a little confusing way of saying from stealth. I will say that this is the same experience I have as well. Did you ever post your video tests @Xael of RML radius? I would be interested to see it, because my in game experience of the ability is that I get hit by melee range attacks (5m) without detecting the stealther/cloaker at all while running RML. You've seen it yourself all over the boards how nearly everyone (besides NB people for some odd reason) declaring that RML has a terrible radius and it may have to do with high rates of movement speed and latency. Your experience with RML is much much different from mine.

I will try and capture some footage for you tonight. Something even better than the footage I already have. I will show vs a bosmer in 7 medium (racials, passives) also using cloak, and then I will show it against a NB Dunmer in 7 Light (no stealth bonuses). I will do one from my Sorc's perspective and another from an alt I have on DC who is like vr2. I will try and get it set up tonight, I just need to find some better video editing software for my shadowplay captures. Do you know of any off the top of your head?

Erock25

Xael wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

He was saying that while stealthed he can land a Wrecking Blow from the front against someone using RML without being seen. Out of stealth was a little confusing way of saying from stealth. I will say that this is the same experience I have as well. Did you ever post your video tests @Xael of RML radius? I would be interested to see it, because my in game experience of the ability is that I get hit by melee range attacks (5m) without detecting the stealther/cloaker at all while running RML. You've seen it yourself all over the boards how nearly everyone (besides NB people for some odd reason) declaring that RML has a terrible radius and it may have to do with high rates of movement speed and latency. Your experience with RML is much much different from mine.

I will try and capture some footage for you tonight. Something even better than the footage I already have. I will show vs a bosmer in 7 medium (racials, passives) also using cloak, and then I will show it against a NB Dunmer in 7 Light (no stealth bonuses). I will do one from my Sorc's perspective and another from an alt I have on DC who is like vr2. I will try and get it set up tonight, I just need to find some better video editing software for my shadowplay captures. Do you know of any off the top of your head?

Nope and I have been searching. There is nothing free out there that isn't loaded with malicious adware according to reviews. I just edit using youtube's functions which are very limited.

rich.magab14a_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

Xael

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

This is a very false and misleading post.
First of all, Cloak does not break combat and allow you to switch out your gear and skills.
Secondly, even without pots you can still not only see through cloak/stealth, but break it with other skills that do AoE damage. Please get an understanding of combat mechanics before you continue to spread more false information. I mean this as nice as possible. See the smiley -->

Eejit1331

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

It would be nice if the support or assault tree had a mark target type of ability. it's odd the only class that can go invisible is the only class that can mark them.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Revealing+Flare

I don't want a PBAOE... I want mark target available or something more similar. The PBAOE just doesn't work effectively.

rich.magab14a_ESO

Xael wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

This is a very false and misleading post.
First of all, Cloak does not break combat and allow you to switch out your gear and skills.
Secondly, even without pots you can still not only see through cloak/stealth, but break it with other skills that do AoE damage. Please get an understanding of combat mechanics before you continue to spread more false information. I mean this as nice as possible. See the smiley -->

no it's not misinformation. cloak allows you to disengage fairly quickly and as long as you can stay stealthed you'll get out of combat pretty quick. Also you can see videos of this act in videos of a very popular twitch streamer here on the forrums. He often switches his ultimates, but to his credit he doesn't use addons to swap

Lava_Croft

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

It would be nice if the support or assault tree had a mark target type of ability. it's odd the only class that can go invisible is the only class that can mark them.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Revealing+Flare

Skill sucks and you know it

Skill doesn't suck at all and it prevents any Nightblade from using stealth for 6 seconds. What probably sucks is your application of the skill.

rfennell_ESO

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

It doesn't get you out of combat.

It also doesn't get you out of combat quicker.

So you know.

Kobaal

Also, technically any add on that lets you swap weapon/armor sets with one click or button is considered a macro which is against the TOS.

Just sayin

Xael

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

This is a very false and misleading post.
First of all, Cloak does not break combat and allow you to switch out your gear and skills.
Secondly, even without pots you can still not only see through cloak/stealth, but break it with other skills that do AoE damage. Please get an understanding of combat mechanics before you continue to spread more false information. I mean this as nice as possible. See the smiley -->

no it's not misinformation. cloak allows you to disengage fairly quickly and as long as you can stay stealthed you'll get out of combat pretty quick. Also you can see videos of this act in videos of a very popular twitch streamer here on the forrums. He often switches his ultimates, but to his credit he doesn't use addons to swap

Yes, it is misinformation.
Cloak does not stop combat. Cloak does not permit the NB to change armor or skills mid fight. This is an outright lie. I don't need to watch Twitch, I have my own NB. Cloak does not effect the duration of combat either. More importantly the person I rebuked said it was an "at will" thing "at the touch of the button." This is totally false.

RinaldoGandolphi

Erock25 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

He was saying that while stealthed he can land a Wrecking Blow from the front against someone using RML without being seen. Out of stealth was a little confusing way of saying from stealth. I will say that this is the same experience I have as well. Did you ever post your video tests @Xael of RML radius? I would be interested to see it, because my in game experience of the ability is that I get hit by melee range attacks (5m) without detecting the stealther/cloaker at all while running RML. You've seen it yourself all over the boards how nearly everyone (besides NB people for some odd reason) declaring that RML has a terrible radius and it may have to do with high rates of movement speed and latency. Your experience with RML is much much different from mine.

I used to run RML exclusively for months in 1.5 and it worked like it was supposed to, but now RML has two bugs:

1. Sometimes you will turn it on and cast it over and over again and the ball never appears. Even though in your character screen you get the RML and it shows the increased spell crit, the detection part of the skill doesn't work. I'd say over 50% of the time the skill does this. Once you get the skill actually working it has another bug

2. When you get killed with the skill on your bar, many times the detection part of the skill stops working, and requires a relog to fix.

I have reported both of these bugs numerous times since the 1.6 PTS and they have been ignored. if RML wasn't bugged and worked like it was supposed to 50% of the time that would be fine, but as of 1.6 the skill has been bugged for me and stopped working correctly and hasn't worked correctly since 1.5.

Xael

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

How exactly will anyone kill a Nightblade with these changes??

With Radiant Magelight you literally have to be standing right on top of the Nightblade in order to be able to see him. Detect Pots are the only thing that enables someone to even stand a chance against a good Nightblade. And your going to make Detect Pots useless against Cloak?

False.
Even against a Bosmer/Khajit with 7/7 Medium and all the passives, you can still see them 10m away. This includes Cloak.
A non Bosmer/Khajit not in MA will be seen even further away.

10m is still a good distance and the majority will likely be non bosmer/khajit 7/7 medium combo.

RML is fine.

have in mind movement speed, client <-> server <-> client communication times or in other words RML is completly bogus. when i can attack a friend of mine running RML from the front with a out of stealth WB it clearly indicates for me it is useless in any regard.

I am not even sure what you are saying here. You are not using Stealth and you land WB from the front on someone who is using RML? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Your response is meaningless.
RML is for area sneak attack reduction/stun removal, Spell Crit, and detecting invis/stealthed players. It works just fine against what I listed.

He was saying that while stealthed he can land a Wrecking Blow from the front against someone using RML without being seen. Out of stealth was a little confusing way of saying from stealth. I will say that this is the same experience I have as well. Did you ever post your video tests @Xael of RML radius? I would be interested to see it, because my in game experience of the ability is that I get hit by melee range attacks (5m) without detecting the stealther/cloaker at all while running RML. You've seen it yourself all over the boards how nearly everyone (besides NB people for some odd reason) declaring that RML has a terrible radius and it may have to do with high rates of movement speed and latency. Your experience with RML is much much different from mine.

I used to run RML exclusively for months in 1.5 and it worked like it was supposed to, but now RML has two bugs:

1. Sometimes you will turn it on and cast it over and over again and the ball never appears. Even though in your character screen you get the RML and it shows the increased spell crit, the detection part of the skill doesn't work. I'd say over 50% of the time the skill does this. Once you get the skill actually working it has another bug

2. When you get killed with the skill on your bar, many times the detection part of the skill stops working, and requires a relog to fix.

I have reported both of these bugs numerous times since the 1.6 PTS and they have been ignored. if RML wasn't bugged and worked like it was supposed to 50% of the time that would be fine, but as of 1.6 the skill has been bugged for me and stopped working correctly and hasn't worked correctly since 1.5.

I never have these problems.
I do sometimes have the occasional graphical display problem where you can't see the orb, however I still have the detect radius. It is a visual bug for me, nothing more. The same thing happens to Inner Light on a character I do PvE stuff with. It's strange.

Otherwise I have no issues with RML.

Tripwyr

Kobaal wrote: »

Also, technically any add on that lets you swap weapon/armor sets with one click or button is considered a macro which is against the TOS.

Just sayin

No it is not, rofl. Stop spewing ***.

Laggus

mcurley wrote: »

So many people are afraid of this small change. It's hilarious.

How does it make sense that anything but AE spells will damage you while invisible or make you visible? This is just a logical fix to a broken mechanic.

Also. Cloak and Blur... that's all we get for class defense. We are the most vulnerable class in the game and lots of us wear pajamas for armor...

Don't like getting ganked? Don't travel solo. If you must travel solo... travel smart.

Don't wear pajamas then!

Joy_Division

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

It would be nice if the support or assault tree had a mark target type of ability. it's odd the only class that can go invisible is the only class that can mark them.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Revealing+Flare

Skill sucks and you know it

Skill doesn't suck at all and it prevents any Nightblade from using stealth for 6 seconds. What probably sucks is your application of the skill.

Sorry, skill sucks. You probably think it's good because your ability to avoid the long slooooow time to target sucks.

Igawotch

Derra wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

From the perspective of a sorcerer I wouldn't be too worried by cloak being immune to detect pots, I suggested it to my NB guildie a few weeks ago. I can still curse them and streak through them to keep them from stealthing, and even boundless storm works within melee range. Ok so detect pots make the job quicker and easier but I often feel a bit guilty popping one and suddenly seeing a NB appear next to me and panic, knowing I just countered their whole build with one button for 45 seconds; it does't seem fair and it turns a challenge into practically a free kill. Let them have cloak, and let it be immune to pots I say. Maybe if this happened though magelight could do with a buff to it's radius. I can't speak for the other classes but surely any aoe like caltrops, blazing spear, steel tornado etc would work as well as curse and streak do for me. The only time I feel vindicated using a detect pot against a cloaky NB is if they're picking off friendlies around me

wait till 1.7 when you can´t streak after them bc of the permanently increasinc costs. you have to keep that in mind too...

I´m not too worried about the current situation but once streak is on a defacto CD for 4 seconds it´s going to be a pain chasing down a good nb as a sorc.

Player habits like that are not very smart. Why would you chase someone that has a strong def and survival?
The whole discussion is a L2P issue because narrow minded DPS clones always disregard their own def and assume they must kill everything right away. It's not all about dps and you cannot beat every build or skilled player, no matter how long a loser is whining.

Cyrodiil is not a Arena, so don't expect 1 vs. 1 instanced rule sets and enjoy your freedom to adapt play styles and different skill sets for several situations. If you are not flexible or don't like class diversity its your own fault.

Its a players choice to play smart or stupid, always.

Because with a mechanic like cloak (if it really works reliably with 1.7) you have to chase players.

No you don't, its your choice!

If you can go invisible at will the class is never going to die again unless there are means to keep them in combat (thus the term chasing bc they want to withdraw from the fight).

So what, it doesn't mean you gonna die.
Use CC , aoe etc. and if they run away, let em go. So whats your problem, that you cannot kill a target that made a choice to get out of trouble?

Again, its not all about killing just because you prefer killing only!

Also you don´t need a strong def and survivability when you´re invisible - you cant be attacked.

Turning unvisible is survival!

I main a sorc. I have two NBs. Believe me when i say it´s not good for the game when players can disengage at will without a segnificant cost associated with that feat.

Disengage = survival. Again, whats the problem?

A reliable cloak will do so much more than bolt escape (which is easily countered by speed and gap closers by smart players - yet still is getting nerfed). Against a cloaking enemy you have about 1s to get them out of stealth or they are gone - atleast thats the case when i´m on my NBs. If the enemy does not use detect potions they can´t catch me ever.

Nope, with Bolt Escape you are still a shielded active canon, with cloak you are turning passive to bring you out of trouble.

And this is wrong in so many ways of thinking that it´s rather futile to reply at all.

If you can disengage at will and engage at will this gives you the initiative forcing your opponent to play defensive the whole time. This is not the case with bolt escape. You can still hit a bolting sorc - you can´t with a cloaked NB - the choice is entirely theirs.

Ofc you don´t have to chase players. But if a class can reliably control the engagement and can end it at will on their terms you´re not going to see anything but that class on a high level of play. This is currently the case with NBs and sorcs while the former have greater killing power with the latter having greater survivability but are predictable in terms of dmg.

A reliable cloak will combine the NBs burst with the sorcerers survivability and ability to direct the fight.

With bolt escape you´re a shielded cannon that can be hit. With cloak you´re a hidden cannon that can fire any time they please without the enemy having any chance to predict your move or attack you on their terms.

You´re arguing from a point where NB is becoming the only vaible soloing class because they can engage and disengage at will (the only hardcounter to cloak is mark which is a NB skill also - whoops). Cloak is not only a powerful defensive ability but also THE MOST POWERFUL OFFENSIVE ABILITY if it were to work 100% reliable. This is what you seem to fail to take into account.
But meh. I´ve got a stam and magica NB rdy. Should it really be eldercloaks online for a patch cycle or two thats what i will do .

So you force a NB to go defensive there's nothing wrong with that but a NB makes you go defensive that's wrong?

Xael wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

This is a very false and misleading post.
First of all, Cloak does not break combat and allow you to switch out your gear and skills.
Secondly, even without pots you can still not only see through cloak/stealth, but break it with other skills that do AoE damage. Please get an understanding of combat mechanics before you continue to spread more false information. I mean this as nice as possible. See the smiley -->

I think he is doing it on purpose trying to get it nerfed because he is to lazy to

Xael wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

How, exactly, is this a problem? You speak of it making strong connotation towards thinking it's wrong for an escape or repositioning tool to be usable for those purposes, but don't specify why you feel that way.

I've never said that I think it's wrong for an escape/repositioning tool to be used for that purpose. (Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but whatever). What I maintain is that cloak works as an escape/repositioning skill now (even with detect pots) and the only people in favor of the proposed change are bad players.

It works, but it can become incredibly useless & frustrating in certain situations. I usually don't mind this when there's something I could've done to avoid it (e.g. better positioning to not get hit by AoEs), but having even one guy who happened to drink a potion 30 seconds ago in that enemy zerg, capable of ruining your day (without a thing you can do about it)... that's just not fun gameplay, at all.

And lol at your argument "if they have a different opinion than I do, they must be bad players!".
Is that really the best you can come up with?

its frustrating when you are overwhelmed where it doesent function properly - but then no other escape/defensive mechanic iis workiing properly.

I'd say bolt escape is working pretty well. You can sometimes catch the sorc by using gap closers and blocking the BoL/Streak stun, but it's tricky and requires some skill atleast.

Imagine if there was a potion that teleported you right next to the blinking sorc right every time he blinked for 30 seconds, or just made that BoL/Streak do nothing. That'd be pretty much like stealth detection potion is vs cloak at the moment.

Imagine there is a skill that will allow you to get out of combat at will, which in turn will allow you to swap skills and armor to adapt to any situation you are in(there are addons that will allow you to do this at a touch of the button). Oh wait there is a skill that does that and it's called cloak. Detect pots make this practice pretty hard for nbs but these changes will make the practice rampant.

This is a very false and misleading post.
First of all, Cloak does not break combat and allow you to switch out your gear and skills.
Secondly, even without pots you can still not only see through cloak/stealth, but break it with other skills that do AoE damage. Please get an understanding of combat mechanics before you continue to spread more false information. I mean this as nice as possible. See the smiley -->

no it's not misinformation. cloak allows you to disengage fairly quickly and as long as you can stay stealthed you'll get out of combat pretty quick. Also you can see videos of this act in videos of a very popular twitch streamer here on the forrums. He often switches his ultimates, but to his credit he doesn't use addons to swap

Yes, it is misinformation.
Cloak does not stop combat. Cloak does not permit the NB to change armor or skills mid fight. This is an outright lie. I don't need to watch Twitch, I have my own NB. Cloak does not effect the duration of combat either. More importantly the person I rebuked said it was an "at will" thing "at the touch of the button." This is totally false.

I believe they just want their free AP back and probably want free Stones from Imperial City as well.

Teargrants

Kobaal wrote: »

Also, technically any add on that lets you swap weapon/armor sets with one click or button is considered a macro which is against the TOS.

Just sayin

Wat. You must be new here.

Devs have confirmed on these very forums that macros are perfectly allowed and not against TOS in any way.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

It would be nice if the support or assault tree had a mark target type of ability. it's odd the only class that can go invisible is the only class that can mark them.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Revealing+Flare

Skill sucks and you know it

Skill doesn't suck at all and it prevents any Nightblade from using stealth for 6 seconds. What probably sucks is your application of the skill.

Totally, Flare is like OP, all those ppl in Cyrodiil spamming Flare left and right killing piles and piles of defenseless NBs.

Oh wait...

Lava_Croft

Teargrants wrote: »

Totally, Flare is like OP, all those ppl in Cyrodiil spamming Flare left and right killing piles and piles of defenseless NBs.

Not my problem that most people are too stupid to use Radiant Magelight or Flares. They rather exploit bugs and cry on the forums about Cloak.

Joy_Division

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Totally, Flare is like OP, all those ppl in Cyrodiil spamming Flare left and right killing piles and piles of defenseless NBs.

Not my problem that most people are too stupid to use Radiant Magelight or Flares. They rather exploit bugs and cry on the forums about Cloak.

If cloak gets nerfed because Flare sucks as a counter, just remember you claimed this crappy skill is viable.

Maulkin

I'm sorry Kris, but Flare is a shite skill, there's no two ways about it. It's like a really really REALLY bad caltrops.

And yes, I have it leveled and morphed (tried both morphs in fact) and I tried it for a while yes and it's without a doubt completely useless.

The travel time is wayyyy too long considering the speed at which an invisible NB moves with Concealed Weapon and Double Take.

First off it only reveals enemies in the area the moment it hits the ground not afterwards. The Lingering Flare stays in the area for only 8". It does no damage unless you use the other morph Scorching Flare. Scorching Flare puts a DoT only on the targets you reveal from sneak/invis and that DoT gets purged with Cloak, the very mechanic it's supposed to counter, making it perhaps the worst thought-out skill in ESO ahead of Lotus Fan.

Caltrops has a snare (with a huge snare if caught in it on landing), it has ground damage that cannot be purged, the damage is a stamina dot which drains your stamina if you're blocking, it stays in the area for 30" as opposed to the 8" of Flare and it does decent damage.

There's a point where you have to consider what you're saying mate. If you see 1 car driving on the wrong side of road then you lower your window and yell at them. If you see 100 cars on the wrong side of the road...it's most likely you who's being a wally.

There's a reason you see people spamming Caltrops and you see no one spamming Flare, it's because one is great and the other is crap. We told them that in PTS as well, that they added a global skill similar but vastly inferior to one already in the game. You saying it's great, doesn't make it so.

RinaldoGandolphi

Yup, because being forced to use two skills slots on RML to counter 1 skill is simply fair....remember that everyone who isn't a Nightblade...you should be required have to use 2 skill slots to counter the NB 1 skill slot....

This is nothing more then a direct nerf to Alchemy and its absolute rubbish.

whats next?

We going to nerf Unstoppable potions because they prevent me from being Feared, Stunned, Knocked down, etc by a skill?

We going to nerf speed potions because they make me run too fast?

We going to nerf invisible potions because they last longer then Cloak?

We going to Nerf Spell Power Pots because they give Spell Crit and Magic Restore too and thats better then any skill?

We going to nerf Weapon Power potions too for the same reasons as spell power pots?

This entire thing is absolute garbage. Its a direct nerf to a crafting profession, its bad enough they have Pots in the Crown store that significant;y reduced the value of Alchemy, and now this.

They won't be happy until Alchemy is useless for anything but restoring health, magic, and stamina.

Xael

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Yup, because being forced to use two skills slots on RML to counter 1 skill is simply fair....remember that everyone who isn't a Nightblade...you should be required have to use 2 skill slots to counter the NB 1 skill slot....

This is nothing more then a direct nerf to Alchemy and its absolute rubbish.

whats next?

We going to nerf Unstoppable potions because they prevent me from being Feared, Stunned, Knocked down, etc by a skill?

We going to nerf speed potions because they make me run too fast?

We going to nerf invisible potions because they last longer then Cloak?

We going to Nerf Spell Power Pots because they give Spell Crit and Magic Restore too and thats better then any skill?

We going to nerf Weapon Power potions too for the same reasons as spell power pots?

This entire thing is absolute garbage. Its a direct nerf to a crafting profession, its bad enough they have Pots in the Crown store that significant;y reduced the value of Alchemy, and now this.

They won't be happy until Alchemy is useless for anything but restoring health, magic, and stamina.

Ok first off, you don't need 2 slots to run RML.
Second, why you wouldn't use an amazing ability like this blows my mind.

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups. That said, Detect pots are not useless, still good, still work against 3/4 classes ALL the time and 4/4 when NBs use sneak instead of Cloak (which happens all the damn time).

You are whining out of ignorance, fear, or just wanting to make noise. Either way, don't sweat the small stuff man. It will be fine. Worry more about the lag being fixed or not

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Totally, Flare is like OP, all those ppl in Cyrodiil spamming Flare left and right killing piles and piles of defenseless NBs.

Not my problem that most people are too stupid to use Radiant Magelight or Flares. They rather exploit bugs and cry on the forums about Cloak.

If it takes effort and/or brains to use a counterskill be sure the skill that it´s meant to counter is going to get nerfed.

Believe me. I´m a sorc. We´ve been telling ppl about gap closers and speedbuffs since release...

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Yup, because being forced to use two skills slots on RML to counter 1 skill is simply fair....remember that everyone who isn't a Nightblade...you should be required have to use 2 skill slots to counter the NB 1 skill slot....

This is nothing more then a direct nerf to Alchemy and its absolute rubbish.

whats next?

We going to nerf Unstoppable potions because they prevent me from being Feared, Stunned, Knocked down, etc by a skill?

We going to nerf speed potions because they make me run too fast?

We going to nerf invisible potions because they last longer then Cloak?

We going to Nerf Spell Power Pots because they give Spell Crit and Magic Restore too and thats better then any skill?

We going to nerf Weapon Power potions too for the same reasons as spell power pots?

This entire thing is absolute garbage. Its a direct nerf to a crafting profession, its bad enough they have Pots in the Crown store that significant;y reduced the value of Alchemy, and now this.

They won't be happy until Alchemy is useless for anything but restoring health, magic, and stamina.

Ok first off, you don't need 2 slots to run RML.
Second, why you wouldn't use an amazing ability like this blows my mind.

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups. That said, Detect pots are not useless, still good, still work against 3/4 classes ALL the time and 4/4 when NBs use sneak instead of Cloak (which happens all the damn time).

You are whining out of ignorance, fear, or just wanting to make noise. Either way, don't sweat the small stuff man. It will be fine. Worry more about the lag being fixed or not

You are so wrong about not using cloak to cover distance. Speedbuff + Concealed + Cloak is how i roll on my nb. Why risk getting seen...
This is going to be much worse if you can´t mount in the imperial city btw.

Edit: Indeed radiant magelight is an amazing ability - for the nb. I´d much rather fight enemies that can only use 8 skills instead of 10.
Oh god my head hurts.

RinaldoGandolphi

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Yup, because being forced to use two skills slots on RML to counter 1 skill is simply fair....remember that everyone who isn't a Nightblade...you should be required have to use 2 skill slots to counter the NB 1 skill slot....

This is nothing more then a direct nerf to Alchemy and its absolute rubbish.

whats next?

We going to nerf Unstoppable potions because they prevent me from being Feared, Stunned, Knocked down, etc by a skill?

We going to nerf speed potions because they make me run too fast?

We going to nerf invisible potions because they last longer then Cloak?

We going to Nerf Spell Power Pots because they give Spell Crit and Magic Restore too and thats better then any skill?

We going to nerf Weapon Power potions too for the same reasons as spell power pots?

This entire thing is absolute garbage. Its a direct nerf to a crafting profession, its bad enough they have Pots in the Crown store that significant;y reduced the value of Alchemy, and now this.

They won't be happy until Alchemy is useless for anything but restoring health, magic, and stamina.

Ok first off, you don't need 2 slots to run RML.
Second, why you wouldn't use an amazing ability like this blows my mind.

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups. That said, Detect pots are not useless, still good, still work against 3/4 classes ALL the time and 4/4 when NBs use sneak instead of Cloak (which happens all the damn time).

You are whining out of ignorance, fear, or just wanting to make noise. Either way, don't sweat the small stuff man. It will be fine. Worry more about the lag being fixed or not

I do know all about Cloak, Im just more annoyed that this is a direct nerf to a crafting profession. Its also a direct nerf to many people who rely on selling Alchemy potions.

Look at things from the other side, Those potions have a 43 sec cooldown period where you can't drink any other potion after you drink a detect pot...i cna't use a tri-pot to heal, etc..the Nightlblade can. The Nightblade still has the entire plethora of potions available to his/her disposal while we are forced to drink a detect pot to even have even footing.

RML being a toggle does require two bar slots unless you want to have to re activate it every time your swap weapons.

Im not sweating the small stuff, i just see it as totally unfair to nerf a crafting profession considering no one talks about the long coodown on potions there are trade offs...i can't drink another potion for 43 secs after drinking a detect pot, imagine if a skill in this game had a 40+ sec cooldown. No one on this thread wants to take this into consideration when talking about this.

Drinking a potion has tradeoffs in long cooldowns...you have to pick wisely which potion you want to drink...drinking the wrong one at the wrong time can get you killed, and sometimes drinking a detect pot is actually the wrong type of pot to drink against a Nightblade depending on the circumstances.

there is no trade off to casting Cloak except spending some magic, Cloak users are not subject to a long cooldown period before they can Cloak again, Detect Pot users can't drink another potion for X amount of secs making them very vulnerable to being bursted down due to the fact the person can't drink a Tri-pot.

RinaldoGandolphi

Derra wrote: »

Edit: Indeed radiant magelight is an amazing ability - for the nb. I´d much rather fight enemies that can only use 8 skills instead of 10.
Oh god my head hurts.

Maulkin

Xael wrote: »

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups.

What ?!?!?!

Have you ever seen a magicka NB, mate? Magicka NBs are absolutely covering up distance a-z in perma cloak. I can start from Alessia bridge and travel all the way round the Imperial City and get back to Alessia bridge *with in-combat regen* while never exiting cloak. It costs 2.3k magicka for me and lasts ~3" and I have 1.8k magicka regen (before pots) every 2". You do the math. I NEVER exit cloak unless it's to initiate an attack.

And the reason I do that is because a) I avoid getting ganked and b) I can actually travel faster that way than by sprinting with Major Expedition buff.

The only thing that can disrupt my journey are gankers on chokepoints using detect pots. If that is removed then i can freely choose to engage and disengage from combat at will.

Ezareth

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Totally, Flare is like OP, all those ppl in Cyrodiil spamming Flare left and right killing piles and piles of defenseless NBs.

Not my problem that most people are too stupid to use Radiant Magelight or Flares. They rather exploit bugs and cry on the forums about Cloak.

If it takes effort and/or brains to use a counterskill be sure the skill that it´s meant to counter is going to get nerfed.

Believe me. I´m a sorc. We´ve been telling ppl about gap closers and speedbuffs since release...

Xael wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Yup, because being forced to use two skills slots on RML to counter 1 skill is simply fair....remember that everyone who isn't a Nightblade...you should be required have to use 2 skill slots to counter the NB 1 skill slot....

This is nothing more then a direct nerf to Alchemy and its absolute rubbish.

whats next?

We going to nerf Unstoppable potions because they prevent me from being Feared, Stunned, Knocked down, etc by a skill?

We going to nerf speed potions because they make me run too fast?

We going to nerf invisible potions because they last longer then Cloak?

We going to Nerf Spell Power Pots because they give Spell Crit and Magic Restore too and thats better then any skill?

We going to nerf Weapon Power potions too for the same reasons as spell power pots?

This entire thing is absolute garbage. Its a direct nerf to a crafting profession, its bad enough they have Pots in the Crown store that significant;y reduced the value of Alchemy, and now this.

They won't be happy until Alchemy is useless for anything but restoring health, magic, and stamina.

Ok first off, you don't need 2 slots to run RML.
Second, why you wouldn't use an amazing ability like this blows my mind.

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups. That said, Detect pots are not useless, still good, still work against 3/4 classes ALL the time and 4/4 when NBs use sneak instead of Cloak (which happens all the damn time).

You are whining out of ignorance, fear, or just wanting to make noise. Either way, don't sweat the small stuff man. It will be fine. Worry more about the lag being fixed or not

You are so wrong about not using cloak to cover distance. Speedbuff + Concealed + Cloak is how i roll on my nb. Why risk getting seen...
This is going to be much worse if you can´t mount in the imperial city btw.

Edit: Indeed radiant magelight is an amazing ability - for the nb. I´d much rather fight enemies that can only use 8 skills instead of 10.
Oh god my head hurts.

Yeah once I built enough hitpoints and defensive abilities on my nightblades to survive the typical ganker opener I stopped running RML. It's useful but not worth 2 skill slots and recasting it every time you switch bars is simply not realistic.

Ezareth

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

You must be ignorant over Cloak. Cloak is not Sneak. Sneak will still be used by nightblades, templars, DKs, and Sorcs. NBs will not spam cloak repeatably to cover distance from a-z. They if not on horse will rely on sneak. Cloak will be used for escapes or set-ups.

What ?!?!?!

Have you ever seen a magicka NB, mate? Magicka NBs are absolutely covering up distance a-z in perma cloak. I can start from Alessia bridge and travel all the way round the Imperial City and get back to Alessia bridge *with in-combat regen* while never exiting cloak. It costs 2.3k magicka for me and lasts ~3" and I have 1.8k magicka regen (before pots) every 2". You do the math. I NEVER exit cloak unless it's to initiate an attack.

And the reason I do that is because a) I avoid getting ganked and b) I can actually travel faster that way than by sprinting with Major Expedition buff.

The only thing that can disrupt my journey are gankers on chokepoints using detect pots. If that is removed then i can freely choose to engage and disengage from combat at will.

Sprint + double-take (in full medium) is faster than you can cloak + concealed weapon + double take. If you're spamming double-take *and* cloak you're not going to make it around cyrodiil without running out of magicka, that is unsustainable.