dont gank at quest NPCs

olemanwinter

I'm about to start a new thread.

It's going to go something like this:


I'm a PvP Sorc with no health, a decent magica pool, that stacked Spell Damage. I'm a burst DPS. But sometimes I like to throw on a resto staff and heal my PvP group to help out ....and farm that AP baby.

But big meanie PvE'rs won't take me as healer for Vet DSA. Their behavior is disgusting. They care more about finishing than taking me along as their PvP Sorc healer.

I think Zos needs to step in and do something about this. There should be some type of affirmative action program where each elite PvE group must take one PvP'er with no health and a burst build into their trial.

Sincerely,
RidiculousQQpvp'r

VincentBlanquin

olemanwinter wrote: »

I'm about to start a new thread.

It's going to go something like this:


I'm a PvP Sorc with no health, a decent magica pool, that stacked Spell Damage. I'm a burst DPS. But sometimes I like to throw on a resto staff and heal my PvP group to help out ....and farm that AP baby.

But big meanie PvE'rs won't take me as healer for Vet DSA. Their behavior is disgusting. They care more about finishing than taking me along as their PvP Sorc healer.

I think Zos needs to step in and do something about this. There should be some type of affirmative action program where each elite PvE group must take one PvP'er with no health and a burst build into their trial.

Sincerely,
RidiculousQQpvp'r

sorry to say to you, but i am pvper too, so this is really dumb what are you trying to say

if you want, my character name is no secret, you can wait for me at Cyrodiil to tell me things

regards

anitajoneb17_ESO

I totally fail to see your point, olemanwinter, sorry...

Fyi, we often take the time to "carry" our fellow PVPer guildies through instances because they need the XP, the achievement, the skill points or some particular loot. And yes they fail because they're not optimized for pve but yes we laugh and with a common effort we get it done.

I fail to see how this is related to the current topic. Besides, none of us ever said that ZOS had to do something about it. It all comes down to "please play fair and smart" and with that bottom line I end up agreeing with ppontus, even if we stand on the opposite sides of the argumentation.

VincentBlanquin

well i write they should make changes, but of course i dont expect miracles in this case. More important is there should be many undecided players, so maybe when they read this thread, they should decide dont do these things. So this thread worth it. No surprise i dont expect i cant change statements many players, who write against from beginning

VincentBlanquin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I totally fail to see your point, olemanwinter, sorry...

Fyi, we often take the time to "carry" our fellow PVPer guildies through instances because they need the XP, the achievement, the skill points or some particular loot. And yes they fail because they're not optimized for pve but yes we laugh and with a common effort we get it done.

I fail to see how this is related to the current topic. Besides, none of us ever said that ZOS had to do something about it. It all comes down to "please play fair and smart" and with that bottom line I end up agreeing with ppontus, even if we stand on the opposite sides of the argumentation.

yeah, thats perfect example how poisonous mind many great pvpers have. kill, kill, kill, farm ap, farm ap, farm ap
more quickly - more honorable. are we outnumbered and lost a keep?- lets let make lag

Cogo

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

to all community, to all players to care about population here and longevity in pvp

please stop ganking players when they turned quests, they are stuck at turning and cant do anything, defend, nothing. What are you proud of collecting these kills? zen fail to deliver safe zone around quest npcs, so please, tell in your guilds to not do this, punish them for this. Try to watch from time to time your own territory cities and kill these scums. you all not only veterans complain about zerging, so this can be your way to have 1vs1 fight and do right thing in one. spred this, do this. thank you for your time

Zenimax! I want my LOL button!!!

pppontus

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I totally fail to see your point, olemanwinter, sorry...

Fyi, we often take the time to "carry" our fellow PVPer guildies through instances because they need the XP, the achievement, the skill points or some particular loot. And yes they fail because they're not optimized for pve but yes we laugh and with a common effort we get it done.

I fail to see how this is related to the current topic. Besides, none of us ever said that ZOS had to do something about it. It all comes down to "please play fair and smart" and with that bottom line I end up agreeing with ppontus, even if we stand on the opposite sides of the argumentation.

yeah, thats perfect example how poisonous mind many great pvpers have. kill, kill, kill, farm ap, farm ap, farm ap
more quickly - more honorable. are we outnumbered and lost a keep?- lets let make lag

You are aware that AP is literally the only reward you get for pvp? That AP is your leaderboard ranking etc. Every kill is AP, quester kills are often really high AP too because they don't die much (to other players). This is kind of like being mad at people for doing too much DPS in trials.

Sorry, as long as killing you makes me AP which makes me money so I can buy potions to kill more people.. you're going down one way or another.

VincentBlanquin

do you wanna know whats funny at all? there were threads like this before on elder scrollsonline sites. people arguing, endlessly. And you know what? The biggest game defenders who post every day often and fight like lions are nowhere near there to be find. they had tons of posts every day from prelaunch even, but one day they simple dissappeared, not a single post since. Maybe there was issues other people pointed which made them quit afterall. they are gone like forever and i am still there

bloodenragedb14_ESO

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

omg. its not about pvp, its about bad design and scum behaviour. i spend almost all my game time at cyrodiil, so dont force me to go pve zones....

wholeheartedly agree, quest hub gankers are 'scum'

olsborg

I dont attack low levels, and usualy not even low veteran ranks. But I do believe that if you venture into cyrodiil and the quest hubs and dungeons, you run the risk of getting a pvp fight on your hands. As it should be.

Varicite

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

do you wanna know whats funny at all? there were threads like this before on elder scrollsonline sites. people arguing, endlessly. And you know what? The biggest game defenders who post every day often and fight like lions are nowhere near there to be find. they had tons of posts every day from prelaunch even, but one day they simple dissappeared, not a single post since. Maybe there was issues other people pointed which made them quit afterall. they are gone like forever and i am still there

Strange, I've been here since beta and there are still many others like me who still post here frequently.

Sounds like you may just have your blinders on.

VincentBlanquin

Varicite wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

do you wanna know whats funny at all? there were threads like this before on elder scrollsonline sites. people arguing, endlessly. And you know what? The biggest game defenders who post every day often and fight like lions are nowhere near there to be find. they had tons of posts every day from prelaunch even, but one day they simple dissappeared, not a single post since. Maybe there was issues other people pointed which made them quit afterall. they are gone like forever and i am still there

Strange, I've been here since beta and there are still many others like me who still post here frequently.

Sounds like you may just have your blinders on.

you have blinders on looks like, because i write about sites and not site

Varicite

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

do you wanna know whats funny at all? there were threads like this before on elder scrollsonline sites. people arguing, endlessly. And you know what? The biggest game defenders who post every day often and fight like lions are nowhere near there to be find. they had tons of posts every day from prelaunch even, but one day they simple dissappeared, not a single post since. Maybe there was issues other people pointed which made them quit afterall. they are gone like forever and i am still there

Strange, I've been here since beta and there are still many others like me who still post here frequently.

Sounds like you may just have your blinders on.

you have blinders on looks like, because i write about sites and not site

Perhaps, but you also write in what seems to be semi-broken English w/ tons of grammatical errors (not criticizing), so you can't really blame me for thinking you were talking specifically about this site.

/shrug

Rylana

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I totally fail to see your point, olemanwinter, sorry...

Fyi, we often take the time to "carry" our fellow PVPer guildies through instances because they need the XP, the achievement, the skill points or some particular loot. And yes they fail because they're not optimized for pve but yes we laugh and with a common effort we get it done.

I fail to see how this is related to the current topic. Besides, none of us ever said that ZOS had to do something about it. It all comes down to "please play fair and smart" and with that bottom line I end up agreeing with ppontus, even if we stand on the opposite sides of the argumentation.

You know what I find the most hilarious about "pro pve players" when I take my PvP sorc into a pledge run? Sometimes I come across a guy who thinks he is the hottest piece of PvE the game has ever seen, and he is in every way superior to the clueless PvPer he has to carry.

Clueless as in not infused, not divines, not the perfect weaved rotations, not the flavor of the month optimum stats setup that someone decided one day was the way to go. Just my gear that I theorycrafted myself (and with some advice from other PvP guildies), that helps me live and kill when im getting assaulted by enemies that can actually think and adapt on the fly.

Then I post my DPS compared to his and he starts asking me how I am outdoing him. He starts asking me how with only 15k health I am surviving better than the tank, he asks me how I am so good at the game.

I tell him "i dont PvE often, playing against people and learning to adapt in a moments notice instead of following a scripted choroeographed fight makes my reflexes, judgement, and situational awareness leagues above yours"

Pro PvEers just have to memorize a few lines, I actually have to act to ply my trade.

Even the most complex "mechanics fight" of any PvE instance is a child's show and tell compared to the multi act theater production of an organized GvG fight in a keep.

Sylvyr

MrGhosty wrote: »

So just for giggles, if all of you PvP pros don't want to kill someone who is in quest dialogue why not just support the addition of applying immunity while the player is in dialogue with an NPC? I want to be clear that i don't mean this immunity has a duration beyond when you're actually speaking to the quest giver. The instant you close the dialogue window it's fair game which I'm good with, the ganker still has the slight advantage but I can feel like I'm at least given a fighting chance.

For all the pro tips about shields and this or that people could apply beforehand, not many of those exist for all of the classes so those players may not have the option.

Personally I'd rather they just made one campaign for us "filthy" PvErs so I could enjoy going through this content at my own pace and enjoy exploring. It would also sort out much of the sentiment that PvEers are ruining PvP anyway. We should also be careful about the "it's war, anything goes" mentality because by extension the people that exploit glitches or lag bomb or whatever else is hip these days that is also technically "anything goes" If it's possible in the game, then it's fair. We should pick and choose which dirtbag behavior is just "part of the game" and which isn't. It is all dirtbag behavior and we're clearly on our own in sorting this stuff out.

1) Exploiting glitches is not cool. It's not fair. You may know a glitch that I don't or vice versa. For ganking during a quest turn in, it's a) not a glitch and b) fair because the same rules apply to both players, every time. I can gank you during a turn in, you can gank me during a turn in

2) This invuln idea is not a good thing. If we do invuln for PvE elements in PvP land, then you would have to include Dolmens, harvesting mats, delves, and possibly riding. Wouldn't want to catch anyone at a disadvantage when clearly not PvPing.

VincentBlanquin

it reminds me one my guildie often argue that pve content is more difficult overall that pvp. There is no way to explain him it is complete fake )))

so this thread argueing is not that bad

anitajoneb17_ESO

Rylana wrote: »

Then I post my DPS compared to his and he starts asking me how I am outdoing him. He starts asking me how with only 15k health I am surviving better than the tank, he asks me how I am so good at the game.

I tell him "i dont PvE often, playing against people and learning to adapt in a moments notice instead of following a scripted choroeographed fight makes my reflexes, judgement, and situational awareness leagues above yours"

Pro PvEers just have to memorize a few lines, I actually have to act to ply my trade.

Even the most complex "mechanics fight" of any PvE instance is a child's show and tell compared to the multi act theater production of an organized GvG fight in a keep.

One skill you don't seem to be trained at is modesty though

Rylana

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Then I post my DPS compared to his and he starts asking me how I am outdoing him. He starts asking me how with only 15k health I am surviving better than the tank, he asks me how I am so good at the game.

I tell him "i dont PvE often, playing against people and learning to adapt in a moments notice instead of following a scripted choroeographed fight makes my reflexes, judgement, and situational awareness leagues above yours"

Pro PvEers just have to memorize a few lines, I actually have to act to ply my trade.

Even the most complex "mechanics fight" of any PvE instance is a child's show and tell compared to the multi act theater production of an organized GvG fight in a keep.

One skill you don't seem to be trained at is modesty though

Guilty as charged. I have beef with the smugness of the PvEcentric player coming into alliance war and acting high and mighty.

edit to add: you are not the target btw, its the guy you quoted originally about the QQPvPSorc thread whatever earlier, you just had a rebuttal in the vein I wanted to go with.

anitajoneb17_ESO

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

it reminds me one my guildie often argue that pve content is more difficult overall that pvp. There is no way to explain him it is complete fake )))

??? I never heard anyone saying so actually. Everybody seems to reckon that they are two completely different playstyles which require different things (skills, reaction ,attitude, etc.)

Personally (as a pure PVE-er only) I am convinced that PvP is more difficult. That does not mean that pve is easy, but yes we can copy/paste/learn strategies elaborated by other and pratice them endlessly on mobs that will never ever do anything else but what they're programmed for (and react far more slowly than a humanbeing).

That said :

- there's no reason to despise anyone ;
- some PVE fights are *really really* hard
- some PvP fights are *really really* easy (especially when zerging) and there are also premade pattern in PvP that seem to be applied by many people regardless of the situation.

But true PvP in my opinion is 1v1 or small group versus small group, in which case, yes, it's very skillful. And I don't master it at all.

But... what does all this have to do with the topic ? I haven't said anything bad about PvPers, just testify that my fellow PvPer guildies totally suck at PVE just like my fellow PVEers - including me - suck at PVP. There are a few players that can do both - but not with the same character though.

EDIT : just saw the edit. Thx for clarifying, I thought I was the target ;-). All fine ;-)

VincentBlanquin

his arguments are - nothing matter at pvp, you either kill or be killed. But at pve it matter a lot to complete encounter. of course i say him he dont understand pvp completely

so this thread is easy mode for me

Sylvyr

Anita, I get what you and vince are saying about not wanting to change the mechanics of the game just the behavior of the players. However, bear this in mind:

If you change the "culture" for it to be not acceptable to do X, then someone does do X, the opponents of action X will argue even stronger with more people and force. It is more than likely that somewhere along the line, X will be the subject of coded game mechanics in order to prevent it from occurring. Even if X is not coded out, the constant barrage of judgment and attacks will grow tiresome for some and drive them away.

I see that Vince is advocating that this "scum" action is going to drive players away from PvP. And I agree with you Anita, that with no one to play against it would suck, of course.

However:
1) I think there are a lot worse things driving players away from PvP than some occurrences of dying under less than optimum circumstances. Attributing this as a major or sole cause of players leaving Cyrodiil... I just don't see it.
2) I don't, personally, want to see a watered down or carebear-ish PvP zone, and to make it such, IMHO, would be to reduce the -quality- of the PvP experience.

Some games have more free, open, rule-less, "hardcore" PvP. Some games have little stabs at PvP with safety areas, or PvP in certain areas only, or instanced PvP.... You can see what you are getting into when you research the game a little bit.

If a bunch of players start playing a game that includes something like "complete corpse looting in PvP" and then start losing expensive gear that they equip instead of being PvP-corpse-loot-saavy and equiping cheaper gear they are willing to lose and then proceed to start a cultural shift that goes something like "If you loot your PvP kills you are scum" and "looting PvP corpses will drive away the players" one would scratch their heads and say really?

Cyrodiil does have PvE elements in it. But it also has signs posted all around it - Trespassers will be shot. This is a war zone. Civilians enter at your own risk.

This may be harsh to some, but for many this is the way they like it. This is not about an exploit, this is about the style and manner of the PvP design and culture that this game fosters.

I am one of those players that can sympathize that it sucks to die, especially if it takes a lot of time to get back to what you were doing, but on the other hand I see that as part of the fun. When I pop out of stealth to mount up, I know I am taking a risk, and that makes it more exciting.

I also play poker, and in every hand there is a winner and a loser, and deception in poker is common and part of the game and actually considered good play. Some people get really really upset when they lose, especially to deception or not being able to pick up on it, nothing pisses off a player when they fold a good hand and their opponent shows nothing but a good bluff. Experienced poker players say these people should not be playing poker. They shouldn't, because getting upset (on "tilt") will throw off your game even more and lead to losing more, and they also start slinging around demeaning judgment statements like "Your a lying cheating scumbag for bluffing" and really mean it. Hardened veteran poker players might not be affected by it and maybe see it as a compliment, but more often than not it just introduces a lot of unnecessary drama. If someone came along and said, all this deception in poker is "bad" and is driving potential poker players away and we should change poker to have a rule that says lying is not allowed, you would get a similar reaction or huh? That player doesn't get it, that's what makes poker, poker.

So back to ESO. It's interesting that they put PvE stuffs in Cyrodiil. But inevitably we will get people that don't read the signs before entering, bring in pre-conceived ideas, drama, and expectations and something goes "wrong". The way they designed Cyrodiil really brings this out. On one hand it's really cool to have more things to do, on the other it's a formula for bringing in PvE players that don't have a good understanding of what a PvP zone is really about.

It's not for everyone, that's for sure, a lot of people can't handle getting interrupted doing whatever, can't handle taking time to be cautious, can't handle respawning and running back, can't handle "underhanded" tactics, etc.

Even IF it's a lot of players that can't handle it and leave, it would be fundamentally wrong to use that as a crutch in an argument that behavior or mechanics should change to preserve "PvP"... well IMHO it wouldn't be preserving "PvP" it would be butchering it just like making a no bluffing rule in poker. In which case, I would rather have no one to play with than call a spade a diamond and not a spade.

I know that may sound weird to you, but PvP is very very very very very very very very different from PvE. And a lot of people, just don't get the deeper breadth of it, and often times don't care to try to learn more about it - they just complain and leave. IMHO, it's good riddance.

Those willing to learn or ask... well that's something different.

VincentBlanquin

Sylvyr - "This may be harsh to some, but for many this is the way they like it."

how can you know that? pvp population is nowhere near to what zenimax expected i presume. but of course, pvp contain much bigger problems than this

Sylvyr

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

Sylvyr - "This may be harsh to some, but for many this is the way they like it."

how can you know that? pvp population is nowhere near to what zenimax expected i presume. but of course, pvp contain much bigger problems than this

PvP has has major issues for near a year. ESO has had major issues since the start. Compounded, between lag, bugs, builds, balance, exploits, etc, you got yourself a formula for not succeeding with expected population.

anitajoneb17_ESO

It's too late for me to write an in-depth answer to Sylvyr's extended explanations (+ I have to give all this some thought), but I'll answer tomorrow. For now I'd like to thank her (him?) for taking the time to write and explain. 9 pages to get to a point where we can actually learn from each other and share thoughts ! that's good.

VincentBlanquin

Sylvyr wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

Sylvyr - "This may be harsh to some, but for many this is the way they like it."

how can you know that? pvp population is nowhere near to what zenimax expected i presume. but of course, pvp contain much bigger problems than this

PvP has has major issues for near a year. ESO has had major issues since the start. Compounded, between lag, bugs, builds, balance, exploits, etc, you got yourself a formula for not succeeding with expected population.

i remember how i was shocked when running cyrodiil at beta. the contrast between area monstrosity and lack of objectives. In that minute i already know that it wont be great pvp for me

WebBull

ZOS, please close this thread. All Vincent is doing is bumping himself.

anitajoneb17_ESO

WebBull, if you don't like this thread, don't read it. I for one am learning interesting things. Nobody has violated the CoC so far, as far as I know.

Sylvyr

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It's too late for me to write an in-depth answer to Sylvyr's extended explanations (+ I have to give all this some thought), but I'll answer tomorrow. For now I'd like to thank her (him?) for taking the time to write and explain. 9 pages to get to a point where we can actually learn from each other and share thoughts ! that's good.

As long as it doesn't paint me as a careless insensitive shallow and scummy male, I'm a him.

Sylvyr

WebBull wrote: »

ZOS, please close this thread. All Vincent is doing is bumping himself.

That's disgusting. Should be banned.

VincentBlanquin

WebBull wrote: »

ZOS, please close this thread. All Vincent is doing is bumping himself.

my translator cant translate bumping properly looks like luckily

anyway good luck with your suggestion, dont expect so much attention to something pvp related)))