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2v2 PvP Tournament - Final Resut

  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Nala_ wrote: »
    TheBucket wrote: »
    Stamina players shouldn't complain about mines when they have the option to go ranged with a simple weapon swap. I played a stamina sorc on s/b + 2h setup for a couple of months and I had no problems killing a ton of sorcs who camped in their daedric mines. Some were much harder than others, some were almost impossible to down like that, like @ToRelax for example but in no way did I think that mines are so OP, in fact the single most OP thing back then was a stamina NB enemy because it was simply impossible to kill them unless you're very lucky.

    As for mines, I would use them on my stamina build sometimes and just cast them over the enemy's ones. :)

    You don't even need to go ranged. Mines are counterable. You can still hit a Sorc in his mines without going in them, and Ezerath will tell you from last night. A Stamina NB with S/S and Ambush will take merely no DPS from mines by using Ambush and Holding block right after.

    To note.. I wear 0 Nirn.

    youll never see a good sorc sitting in a minefield spamming them anyway. thats only bad ones that do that

    When you're a lone Sorc fighting 2 Stamina and 1 Magicka nightblades 3 on 1, you damn well better be sitting in a minefield.

    Even then it was like rolling the dice every time they attacked. Fear > break, Fear break, Fear > bugged > can't break dead.

    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    EVERY player worth their weight currently stacks spellresist WAY beyond hardcap. So your point is really moot. The ppl you need the dmg against are the ones that are running around with 45k + spell resist.

    I think I see maybe one person out of every 50 I fight that has spell resist beyond hardcap, but that's just my observation.

    Well true for me too. But then again its 1 out of 100 players that puts up a fight anyways. Two mediocre players with Nirn are impossible even when you outplay them...
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Pixysticks wrote: »

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?
    And if you use all nirn, you have to give up every single set that is not crafted. I really don't think grabbing a certain mundus stone is that big of a difference than not being able to use 75% of the sets in the game, but that may just be me.
    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.

    Everyone knows that, including the developers. But the reason this conversation got started was because the amount of spell resistance that the people were using in the video, would have been counterable if they used the right mundus and armor traits. So de-railing this thread into a 7-page rant about how people shouldn't have to change their mundus to counter someone else's armor traits, is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me.

    Yes, you can not have mainly drop set pieces and a lot of nirnhoned ones.
    No, it's not a mentionable tradeoff because the nirnhoned armor alone gives far more stats then you'd get with sets.

    If I would use the Apprentice stone, I'd have to either drop the Arena set or tri food if I wanted to sustain as well as I do with my current build. That's a tradeoff.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    ToRelax wrote: »

    If I would use the Apprentice stone, I'd have to either drop the Arena set or tri food if I wanted to sustain as well as I do with my current build. That's a tradeoff.

    Yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to decide between countering a lot of spell resistance, or having 200 more magicka regen. Complaining because you have to lose magicka regen to counter someone's spell resist (until they actually nerf nirn), is kind of a ridiculous. You have to adapt to the times, complaining that you don't feel like changing will just get you left behind.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.

    The penetration values are not relative from what I can tell.

    I agree that people who want to do damage to people with high spell resist should have a significant cost for that. The only point I was making was right now every good play has high spell resist and there is very little cost for *them* to do that.

    Sacrificing Atronach for Apprentice for me would cost me significantly, and I'd have to make several other modification to my build to support that which would make me quite a bit less effective. When my drink wears off I know it because I'm suddenly out of magicka all the time, and that doesn't happen. Atronach is similar.

    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • Aimelin
    Aimelin
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    Nala_ wrote: »
    Aimelin wrote: »

    Except for the fact people can get 28k+ armor pen and hit 7 HA users with armor buffs for 15-20k ......

    working as intended for you?

    you do know that 1 point in the cp for penetration is a ui bug right, lol.


    Given that either magicka and stamina builds can put out these rediculous damage numbers, considering the dmg you take is passively decreased by 20% from the battle spirit buff, by just stacking either type of penetration, that needs to be looked at aswell.

    Saying that you need to stack penetration to hit hard, meh other than what my weapon has and the small amount in piercing on my v5 NB i can still crit heavy armor users for 10k+, so the calculations somewhere has to be [snip], if it's not from the buggy API it's from somewhere else.

    Also ... ui bug? lel a user interface isn't going to bug out into showing rediculous numbers, the API that actually gives the number will, a UI will just show w/e it's fed.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:25PM
  • Nala_
    Nala_
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.

    The penetration values are not relative from what I can tell.

    I agree that people who want to do damage to people with high spell resist should have a significant cost for that. The only point I was making was right now every good play has high spell resist and there is very little cost for *them* to do that.

    Sacrificing Atronach for Apprentice for me would cost me significantly, and I'd have to make several other modification to my build to support that which would make me quite a bit less effective. When my drink wears off I know it because I'm suddenly out of magicka all the time, and that doesn't happen. Atronach is similar.

    nah 2 nirn 1hs doesnt give more pen then 1 nirn 2h. go test it. you might only think it does because harvans is still bugged, but the damage is the same.
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »

    If I would use the Apprentice stone, I'd have to either drop the Arena set or tri food if I wanted to sustain as well as I do with my current build. That's a tradeoff.

    Yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to decide between countering a lot of spell resistance, or having 200 more magicka regen. Complaining because you have to lose magicka regen to counter someone's spell resist (until they actually nerf nirn), is kind of a ridiculous. You have to adapt to the times, complaining that you don't feel like changing will just get you left behind.

    It's over 300 actually, and would be more if I was Altmer.
    No, I don't complain that I have to spec into spell penetration if I want to counter spell resistance. I complain that it is to easy to get such high resistance, with little to no sacrifices, that I have to do a lot of tradeoffs to counter it even half way.
    And if adapting to the times means I have to use nirnhoned armor, give up trying to create a balanced build or even reroll stamina - no, thanks.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Suru
    Suru
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    Nala_ wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.

    The penetration values are not relative from what I can tell.

    I agree that people who want to do damage to people with high spell resist should have a significant cost for that. The only point I was making was right now every good play has high spell resist and there is very little cost for *them* to do that.

    Sacrificing Atronach for Apprentice for me would cost me significantly, and I'd have to make several other modification to my build to support that which would make me quite a bit less effective. When my drink wears off I know it because I'm suddenly out of magicka all the time, and that doesn't happen. Atronach is similar.

    nah 2 nirn 1hs doesnt give more pen then 1 nirn 2h. go test it. you might only think it does because harvans is still bugged, but the damage is the same.

    Nirn staff is 18%, each 1h gives 9% Each! (at gold)


    Suru
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.

    The penetration values are not relative from what I can tell.

    I agree that people who want to do damage to people with high spell resist should have a significant cost for that. The only point I was making was right now every good play has high spell resist and there is very little cost for *them* to do that.

    Sacrificing Atronach for Apprentice for me would cost me significantly, and I'd have to make several other modification to my build to support that which would make me quite a bit less effective. When my drink wears off I know it because I'm suddenly out of magicka all the time, and that doesn't happen. Atronach is similar.

    nah 2 nirn 1hs doesnt give more pen then 1 nirn 2h. go test it. you might only think it does because harvans is still bugged, but the damage is the same.

    I don't use Harvens. I didn't craft 2 nirnhoned swords (yet) but I know for a fact in my testing of actual damage values 1 Sharpened Sword(7%) and 1 Nirnhoned sword(8%) was doing closer to tooltip damage than a single nirnhoned staff(18%). You can't test actual damage since 2 1-hand weapons provide more spell damage than a staff.

    I wish to God someone out there with more free time than myself would spend a few hours doing some definitive spell penetration testing with a VR14 char against another VR14 and post the results of every possible combination of penetration and armor resistance values.
    Edited by Ezareth on April 29, 2015 9:47PM
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Sypher wrote: »
    Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

    Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

    You don't think Nirn is out of control? Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now against casters, it's purely defensive but it makes you unkillable if you're half decent at fighting. To give you an example just how powerful it is, I have fought a decent player with nirn and I had no chance of killing him, then we duel naked and fights are over in less than 10 seconds usually. :)

    I would last for an hour or more vs that DK and many times get him low hp only to have him soul assaulted (30k+ tooltip) and not dent him. While at the same time, he deals top damage and can sometimes almost one shot me if I got no shields (his crits are like 70% of my 20K hp).

    No one should be able to deal insane damage and take no damage at all. Nirn is utterly out of control and whenever I'm dueling someone using this trait I tell myself it's just good practice and nothing more. Please don't use it in tournaments, ban it and find a way to get rid of it. If you can't see how broken it is, go play a magica NB and duel a stamina dk in full nirn. Tell me if you can ever kill him (unless he's a total newbie). :)

    edit: Any stamina spec in full nirn actually. They will be immune to your damage, and deal top damage in return to you. Try it, it's total hard mode.

    lol, something hilarious about a sorc saying someone shouldn't be able to take no damage while doing insane damage.

    Yeah bc the two nightblades were absolutely unable to dmg those sorcs in the video because of shields - oh wait...

    The only words the only word that comes to mind reading your comments would get me suspended in these forums sadly.

    Look how long it took 2 stamina nightBLADES with the highest burst in the game to kill a single sorc who's in light armor.
    That is why I find it hilarious.

    And the NBs won despite of shields? Whats the Point? Do you want the fight to be even more lopsided than it was?

    The NBs stayed alive too against the highest magic dmg in the game (well not that they were hit that much bc of dodge/cloak).

    I don´t understand in any way how you can make a point against sorc shields out of this vid.

    Edit: Well i think i get it. You don´t want light armor builds to have active defense - they should explode even faster. 35seconds to score the first kill in the finals while never being pressured.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

    No, I'm saying that if they'd be any other class, say a DK/Templar/Nightblade they would of got instant killed...esp if they were in Light Armor

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:30PM
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.
    ...

    Two one-handed swords provides the same penetration as a staff.

    A two handed sword, and possibly also two one handed weapons (do not have two yellows on hand to check at the moment), provides higher Spell Damage stat than a staff though.

    Two one handed swords also of course provides the additional piece for a set bonus on top of it.

    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Nala_
    Nala_
    ✭✭✭✭
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Not everyone should be forced into using freaking dual wield nirnhoned swords, apprentice, max erosion, and 5 piece light armor just to counter a freaking *armor* trait that an scrub can pick up and slap on his gear. I'm fine with hitting for far less on people wearing heavy armor with defensive builds. I'm not fine having to sacrifice most of my gearing and build choices in the game just to have a chance to kill people who are wearing nirnhoned.

    I agree with the argument you're making, but the comparison is hardly equivalent.

    I think all decent builds should be viable, not just a single build. Otherwise what is the choice at all?

    I don't use spell erosion, and dual wielding 2 nirn swords is the same as a 2h with nirn, since weapon traits are 50% instead of a full value on 1hers. The point I was trying to make was that all people have to do is use the apprentice mundus, put nirn on their weap, and wear 5 light if they want to do as much damage as possible. If you're a magicka sorc you're pretty much forced to wear 5 light anyway, and there's no other decent traits on weapons for a caster besides Nirn, so the only real change people would have to make to help with their pen is to switch to apprentice. The most people can lose by doing so if magicka regen, and no one is forcing them to do it, just an alternative they can use until Nirn gets nerfed.

    I'm not saying Nirn shouldn't be nerfed, because it should be, but people who have the mindset that they shouldn't have to change their mundus to do damage to people who have high spell resist, is kind of silly, nirn or not.

    Dual Nirn 2-handers provides far more Spell Penetration than a Single Nirnhoned staff unless this was change *again* in the last mini-patch or two. Hell a single Nirnhoned Sword and a single sharpened sword provides more spell pen than a single nirnhoned staff.

    The penetration values are not relative from what I can tell.

    I agree that people who want to do damage to people with high spell resist should have a significant cost for that. The only point I was making was right now every good play has high spell resist and there is very little cost for *them* to do that.

    Sacrificing Atronach for Apprentice for me would cost me significantly, and I'd have to make several other modification to my build to support that which would make me quite a bit less effective. When my drink wears off I know it because I'm suddenly out of magicka all the time, and that doesn't happen. Atronach is similar.

    nah 2 nirn 1hs doesnt give more pen then 1 nirn 2h. go test it. you might only think it does because harvans is still bugged, but the damage is the same.

    I don't use Harvens. I didn't craft 2 nirnhoned swords (yet) but I know for a fact in my testing of actual damage values 1 Sharpened Sword(7%) and 1 Nirnhoned sword(8%) was doing closer to tooltip damage than a single nirnhoned staff(18%). You can't test actual damage since 2 1-hand weapons provide more spell damage than a staff.

    I wish to God someone out there with more free time than myself would spend a few hours doing some definitive spell penetration testing with a VR14 char against another VR14 and post the results of every possible combination of penetration and armor resistance values.

    yes you can, wear 2 1h nirn and get the tooltip to the same as a 2h nirn. same damage taadaaa
  • ZOS_BradL
    ZOS_BradL
    mod
    Hello, all. We're closing this thread while evaluate and we moderate some content from it.

    We'll post again when we've decided if this thread will be reopened.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • ZOS_BradL
    ZOS_BradL
    mod
    We appreciate the constructive elements of this thread and have decided to reopen it, but we would like to remind everyone to keep your comments on-topic and refrain from personal attacks.

    Our goal is to create a safe environment for all players. As such, a large number of posts have been removed from this thread. For more information on our expectations, we recommend reviewing the forum Code of Conduct.

    Thanks
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    Staff Post
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    Sypher wrote: »
    Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

    Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

    You don't think Nirn is out of control? Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now against casters, it's purely defensive but it makes you unkillable if you're half decent at fighting. To give you an example just how powerful it is, I have fought a decent player with nirn and I had no chance of killing him, then we duel naked and fights are over in less than 10 seconds usually. :)

    I would last for an hour or more vs that DK and many times get him low hp only to have him soul assaulted (30k+ tooltip) and not dent him. While at the same time, he deals top damage and can sometimes almost one shot me if I got no shields (his crits are like 70% of my 20K hp).

    No one should be able to deal insane damage and take no damage at all. Nirn is utterly out of control and whenever I'm dueling someone using this trait I tell myself it's just good practice and nothing more. Please don't use it in tournaments, ban it and find a way to get rid of it. If you can't see how broken it is, go play a magica NB and duel a stamina dk in full nirn. Tell me if you can ever kill him (unless he's a total newbie). :)

    edit: Any stamina spec in full nirn actually. They will be immune to your damage, and deal top damage in return to you. Try it, it's total hard mode.

    lol, something hilarious about a sorc saying someone shouldn't be able to take no damage while doing insane damage.

    Yeah bc the two nightblades were absolutely unable to dmg those sorcs in the video because of shields - oh wait...

    The only words the only word that comes to mind reading your comments would get me suspended in these forums sadly.

    Look how long it took 2 stamina nightBLADES with the highest burst in the game to kill a single sorc who's in light armor.
    That is why I find it hilarious.

    And the NBs won despite of shields? Whats the Point? Do you want the fight to be even more lopsided than it was?

    The NBs stayed alive too against the highest magic dmg in the game (well not that they were hit that much bc of dodge/cloak).

    I don´t understand in any way how you can make a point against sorc shields out of this vid.

    Edit: Well i think i get it. You don´t want light armor builds to have active defense - they should explode even faster. 35seconds to score the first kill in the finals while never being pressured.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

    No, I'm saying that if they'd be any other class, say a DK/Templar/Nightblade they would of got instant killed...esp if they were in Light Armor

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

    Yeah that bc light armor is terrible right now. Still ppl are screaming to nerf the last class that can put up a semi competetive build for small scale pvp in light armor... (The class that is NOT competetive with stam builds)

    Edit2: Oh that one was against the forum code of conduct too...

    Yay to open discussions - eh, yay i don´t know what else to write.
    Edited by Derra on April 30, 2015 7:02AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Dositheus
    Dositheus
    ✭✭✭
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage. Hard concept to grasp, I know.

    Sorry, not as simple as it seems. There are are many ways to increase "damage" in this game. Or at least there is supposed to be. Critical, high magicka pool, spell damage, synergies/buffs, etc., all of these approaches become suboptimal because the only specific way to counter nirn - which mitigates all these forms of "damage" with little opportunity cost - is to stack spell penetration. Also stacking spell penetration is not necessary dedicated to increasing your build to damage as it does little to those targets that have little spell resistance.

    You may deem it ok or balanced to have the arms race between stacking spell penetration and spell resistance cancel each other out while eroding the viability of alternative means of damage, sets, weapons, traits, etc., but I find it incredibly boring.

    That would be why you increase your max magicka, spell damage, and spell penetration at the same time. I don't know why you seem to think you can only do one or the other. It's not hard to grab apprentice and use a penetration trait on your weapon, just like it's not hard for someone to use all nirn on armor and stack up their spell resist. Neither of those things has anything to do with what stats we optimize or sets we wear or spec we decide to go.

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?

    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.

    There is a bit of hyperbole in this response, much as there is in the rest of the thread. I think we should look at a few items though since I think people are forgetting that... everyone has to sacrifice.

    The first bolded item, asking about why someone has to choose a certain mundus in order to compete? It's a bit of an exageration. For stam builds 90% of people seem to run Warrior, and will claim you're gimped if you don't. A few run thief or shadow, but they are a minority. I don't run any of those, and I do fine.

    I asked Sypher and he confirmed, that it wasn't just Nirn that he was wearing that allowed him to win that fight. He was running 5 piece whitestrakes, along with it being nirned. If you look at that video, regardless of how much nirn he was running and how much spell resistance he had up... if he had not also had Whitestrakes, he would have died in that split second burst when he hit those mines.

    Regardless of what people like to think, not everyone is running a ton of Nirnhoned. Very very few people are running more than a piece or two. Not a lot of people even have that. Running Nirnhoned means you are not running optimal dps sets, your damage is not going to be that great. It's... a sacrifice in that regard. Is it a bit too much oomph? Yeah, probably needs to be brought down a touch. But, everyone makes some sacrifices. Sypher was running whitestrakes, which is *** for dps. It gives... no dps stats whatsoever. What it does give, is a ton of tankiness. Which he knew he would need to be the insane burst potential of two mages. I'd love for them to make an armor counterpart to nirn. You'd find some people would rush to use it, but not everyone. Because it would require crafted for each piece. And plenty of people want their dropped sets for the damage potential and bonuses they get from them.

    So, long story short? Lets not pretend everyone and their uncle is running Nirnhoned. It's not the case. Let's not pretend it can't be overcome... because as we see in the above video, without whitestrakes ontop of it, Sypher would have been gibbed by the mines in under a second. And lets remember that everyone has to make sacrifices balancing offense and defence in the game. Well, sort of... but I won't go there.
  • Dositheus
    Dositheus
    ✭✭✭
    Pixysticks wrote: »

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?
    And if you use all nirn, you have to give up every single set that is not crafted. I really don't think grabbing a certain mundus stone is that big of a difference than not being able to use 75% of the sets in the game, but that may just be me.
    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.

    Everyone knows that, including the developers. But the reason this conversation got started was because the amount of spell resistance that the people were using in the video, would have been counterable if they used the right mundus and armor traits. So de-railing this thread into a 7-page rant about how people shouldn't have to change their mundus to counter someone else's armor traits, is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me.

    I agree 100% with that, since if you notice from the video... Sypher had to sacrifice running one of the best damage set in the game, to run a crafted whitestrakes set with nirn. He knew who he was against, and he used the strategy of adjusting his play style and gear to counter it. The whole.. know your enemy and whatnot?
  • Dositheus
    Dositheus
    ✭✭✭
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »

    If I would use the Apprentice stone, I'd have to either drop the Arena set or tri food if I wanted to sustain as well as I do with my current build. That's a tradeoff.

    Yeah, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to decide between countering a lot of spell resistance, or having 200 more magicka regen. Complaining because you have to lose magicka regen to counter someone's spell resist (until they actually nerf nirn), is kind of a ridiculous. You have to adapt to the times, complaining that you don't feel like changing will just get you left behind.

    It's over 300 actually, and would be more if I was Altmer.
    No, I don't complain that I have to spec into spell penetration if I want to counter spell resistance. I complain that it is to easy to get such high resistance, with little to no sacrifices, that I have to do a lot of tradeoffs to counter it even half way.
    And if adapting to the times means I have to use nirnhoned armor, give up trying to create a balanced build or even reroll stamina - no, thanks.

    There is no crafted set (which you'll need to be to be Nirn) which has near the damage potential of the dropped sets and the regen. Closest you have is Hundings, but you're going to be screwed for any regen if you use that setup. And no regen = no dodge rolls, and thus worthless and dead. Sypher smartly went Whitestrakes and just stacked a ton of defence. If not for that, he'd have died from those mines.

    Long story short, there are sacrifices everyone makes. No one build to rule them all. If you want to do the best burst as a stam, you're not going to be running more than one or two pieces of Nirn. If that. If you are wearing a bunch of Nirn, your damage isn't as big, but you'll survive better against the huge burst of mages. Likewise as a mage, you have to decide... what you're going to focus on. It's all about... flexibility.
  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    Ishammael wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Aimelin wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    germantrocity, being able to use mines to completely shut down any melee build is completely broken and you should realize that, saying that its not fair that your mines do not oneshot people trying to hit you in melee its completely ***. nirnohed is simply reducing the damage of those mines by a 30-40%, taking it into the balanced zone

    So scales shuttin down every bow and magica build relying on projectiles is not completely broken i guess?

    No, as sypher thinks DKs need a buff ..... lel

    I agree that DKs need a buff. The overall class is in shambles in regards to magica builds. Still scales is a stupidly overpowered ability for 1v1 or small scale fights...

    Templar needs buffs too. Does that mean that Jesusbeam is not op against builds without ranged interrupt?

    Two changes I think would help DKs:

    1. Change Fiery Grip so that one is dedicated to pulling enemies to you, and the other is teleport gap closer like Ambush. Both should give the Empower buff. Both should have ~24m range.

    2. Let DoTs tick on shields.

    they do - bleeds do not wich is only provided by weapon skills/passives.

    fiery grip should always port.

    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused

    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage. Hard concept to grasp, I know.

    Sorry, not as simple as it seems. There are are many ways to increase "damage" in this game. Or at least there is supposed to be. Critical, high magicka pool, spell damage, synergies/buffs, etc., all of these approaches become suboptimal because the only specific way to counter nirn - which mitigates all these forms of "damage" with little opportunity cost - is to stack spell penetration. Also stacking spell penetration is not necessary dedicated to increasing your build to damage as it does little to those targets that have little spell resistance.

    You may deem it ok or balanced to have the arms race between stacking spell penetration and spell resistance cancel each other out while eroding the viability of alternative means of damage, sets, weapons, traits, etc., but I find it incredibly boring.

    That would be why you increase your max magicka, spell damage, and spell penetration at the same time. I don't know why you seem to think you can only do one or the other. It's not hard to grab apprentice and use a penetration trait on your weapon, just like it's not hard for someone to use all nirn on armor and stack up their spell resist. Neither of those things has anything to do with what stats we optimize or sets we wear or spec we decide to go.

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?

    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.

    stamina user have to use the warrior mundus to stay competitive dmg wise. as their is no direct complement you have to chose the aprentice for maxing your dmg, while healers use the mage to max their healing output. different specs demand different mundis for maximum output.
    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused

    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • The_Drexill
    The_Drexill
    ✭✭✭✭
    Fighting a half decent sorc without nirnh right now is no contest. Yeah nirnh is op, to counter op sorcs... I'm interested in the rematch without it.
    Brandizzle - NB
    Drexill The Unbreakable - Sorc

    For teh covenant.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    ✭✭
    Dositheus wrote: »

    I asked Sypher and he confirmed, that it wasn't just Nirn that he was wearing that allowed him to win that fight. He was running 5 piece whitestrakes, along with it being nirned. If you look at that video, regardless of how much nirn he was running and how much spell resistance he had up... if he had not also had Whitestrakes, he would have died in that split second burst when he hit those mines.

    So nirn is fine because it alone doesn't save you from walking into 5+ (the two sorcs were stacking them) daedric mines?

    Nirns opportunity cost is entirely too low and I find anyone arguing against that to really not be able to look at things objectively.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • cozmon3c_ESO
    cozmon3c_ESO
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    20k for a piece of nirn, seriously that is chump change now a days. not even close for a reason not to fix.
    Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
    ~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
    Youtube Channel - Leper
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos
  • Ryuho
    Ryuho
    ✭✭✭✭
    Just to add my two words.. I will try to get back to main theme of this topic.. The tournament.. I think both sorcs weren't prepared for this duel anyway.. Imo at least one of them should use radiant magelight to counter cloaking, also they both should use mines + vulcanic rune combo and liq spam, it's the best combo vs "ambushers", for sure it would open them window to do some dmg after vulcanic rune stun, they were put on defense for entire duel.. ofc their dmg was crazy lowered by nirn, but who knows..

    Anyway slowly i am geting really bored of pvp.. same moves all the time, especially u can notice that on nbs.. Ambush->fear->suprise spam.. CC immunity gone, lets repeat!! bleh
    The Farron family team (EU)
    sorcerer - Rubeus Farron AR31
    templar - Selene Farron AR27
    nightblade - Ryuho Farron AR25
    stamplar - Nura Farron AR10
    stamsorcerer - Kitty Farron AR14 (adopted member)
    DK - Ryu Farron AR17


    RETIRED

    CU - next mmo
  • Juraigr
    Juraigr
    ✭✭✭✭
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Nerf Nirn.
    Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
    Make Fear blockable.
    Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
    Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
    Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
    Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
    Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
    Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
    Everyone rejoices.

    PROFIIITTTTTT
    EU Worst DK , Best DK Singapore and NA also known as 'Special Snowflake'

    Jurra - V14 Dragonknight Rank 38 August Palatine
    Jurra Hex - V14 Sorcerer Rank 25 Colonel [SEMI-RETIRED until Zos fix this BS sorc nonsense]

    LA DK Still OP :P

    One of the Three Light Armor DK's

    #200StandardOfMightFFS
    #RevertAshCloud
    #RevertNewAnimations
    #RevertUltiGain

    #FixMoltenWhip

    Grinding my way to August Palatine finally made it, still holding a torch for eso so now imma filthy casual
  • Trinert
    Trinert
    Ryuho wrote: »
    Just to add my two words.. I will try to get back to main theme of this topic.. The tournament.. I think both sorcs weren't prepared for this duel anyway.. Imo at least one of them should use radiant magelight to counter cloaking, also they both should use mines + vulcanic rune combo and liq spam, it's the best combo vs "ambushers", for sure it would open them window to do some dmg after vulcanic rune stun, they were put on defense for entire duel.. ofc their dmg was crazy lowered by nirn, but who knows..

    Anyway slowly i am geting really bored of pvp.. same moves all the time, especially u can notice that on nbs.. Ambush->fear->suprise spam.. CC immunity gone, lets repeat!! bleh

    Radiant magelight was not allowed in the tourney something about countering NB to well... kinda ironic
    Edited by Trinert on May 2, 2015 7:30PM
    Divine Cross
  • Trinert
    Trinert
    Whitestrakes on top of nirn ? seems legit ....
    Edited by Trinert on May 2, 2015 7:32PM
    Divine Cross
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