2v2 PvP Tournament - Final Resut

Germtrocity

We use nirnhoned on our staves for the extra spell penetration, but that is the only piece of nirn gear that we use, and if you would rather we swap over to sharpened then that can be arranged, I have 2 of each stave (one in sharpened and one with nirnhoned) of each variety.

Flawlless

Using nirn in a duel, while not technically an exploit, is highly unsportsmanlike. Whether it was intended or not it's still a broken mechanic.

Kelleton

DK's should get an ability that gives immunity to fear for

Flawlless wrote: »

Using nirn in a duel, while not technically an exploit, is highly unsportsmanlike. Whether it was intended or not it's still a broken mechanic.

you could say that about any of the broken mechanics including fear and shield stacking, but you could also say it was a smart choice. It is no wonder that it was all Sorcs and NB in the finals

LegendaryMage

Sypher wrote: »

Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

You don't think Nirn is out of control? Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now against casters, it's purely defensive but it makes you unkillable if you're half decent at fighting. To give you an example just how powerful it is, I have fought a decent player with nirn and I had no chance of killing him, then we duel naked and fights are over in less than 10 seconds usually.

I would last for an hour or more vs that DK and many times get him low hp only to have him soul assaulted (30k+ tooltip) and not dent him. While at the same time, he deals top damage and can sometimes almost one shot me if I got no shields (his crits are like 70% of my 20K hp).

No one should be able to deal insane damage and take no damage at all. Nirn is utterly out of control and whenever I'm dueling someone using this trait I tell myself it's just good practice and nothing more. Please don't use it in tournaments, ban it and find a way to get rid of it. If you can't see how broken it is, go play a magica NB and duel a stamina dk in full nirn. Tell me if you can ever kill him (unless he's a total newbie).

edit: Any stamina spec in full nirn actually. They will be immune to your damage, and deal top damage in return to you. Try it, it's total hard mode.

Sypher

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

You don't think Nirn is out of control? Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now against casters, it's purely defensive but it makes you unkillable if you're half decent at fighting. To give you an example just how powerful it is, I have fought a decent player with nirn and I had no chance of killing him, then we duel naked and fights are over in less than 10 seconds usually.

I would last for an hour or more vs that DK and many times get him low hp only to have him soul assaulted (30k+ tooltip) and not dent him. While at the same time, he deals top damage and can sometimes almost one shot me if I got no shields (his crits are like 70% of my 20K hp).

No one should be able to deal insane damage and take no damage at all. Nirn is utterly out of control and whenever I'm dueling someone using this trait I tell myself it's just good practice and nothing more. Please don't use it in tournaments, ban it and find a way to get rid of it. If you can't see how broken it is, go play a magica NB and duel a stamina dk in full nirn. Tell me if you can ever kill him (unless he's a total newbie).

edit: Any stamina spec in full nirn actually. They will be immune to your damage, and deal top damage in return to you. Try it, it's total hard mode.

I completely agree that it's OP, my own views regarding being able to deal damage / being tanky aside (from a 1v1 perspective, a well played sorc can nearly pull off similar feats with smaller strain on resource management or risk of death even compared to a roll dodge build)

We allowed it because we can't regulate it, ZOS is being incompetent with this trait by waiting so long to nerf it, but until then there is literally nothing we can do to prove if someone is using nirn or has other forms of mitigation. Similarly we can't regulate playstyles, if players want to spam fear, spam shields, take advantage of fossilize/uppercut combo, turtle inside mines waiting for your opponent to make the first move. All this comes into play eventually in a competitive environment so we regulate what we can and leave open the rest as long as it's not an exploit.

Germantrocity and Karstyll, we are up for a rematch and without nirn trait on both weapons/armor whenever you guys are available. I feel like if I was in your shoes I would be bothered that the trait is still in it's current state. So I completely understand your point of you.

AltusVenifus

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Honestly this did a great job of showcasing nirn at its finest (Not discrediting two great players but pointing something out) But if you look at second round final fight, you ambushed directly into most of their mines while only being taken to 35% health (After watching multiple times its hard to tell but I think it was like 2-3k per mine)??? My mines tooltip is I believe 4300 (I'm only v8 keep in mind). If someone rolls into 3 of my mines especially on a stamina build, if I time curse with it they are almost always dead with curse + mines + streak. Also noticed in the next to last round streak was hitting you for about 1300-1600, my tooltip is 3k at v8.But nice win overall.

I personally hope they don't change Nirn, which might be selfish, I'm not 100% sure. But with TTK like 2.5 secs, nirn is the only thing that allows me to drag a fight into the sustain realm where I like it. Before I started using it, I would die to a magic user in like 1 unblocked attack... now I die in like 5 or 6... keep nirn, keep dodge roll, keep block casting, keep shields IMO... or nerf nirn, block casting, sheilds, and dodge roll... just don't pick one.

Germtrocity

Nala_ wrote: »

using nirn wouldnt have mattered, look at how bad those sorcs played. spamming mines around a tree never rolldodging or trying to use any CC lmao

This is exactly why nirn does matter. Mines are used to create distance, we run low stamina builds and the mines are what helps to keep melee ranged DPS at bay. Nirnhoned allows mine damage to be ignored completely, allowing them to stay at melee range and disabling us from reacting very much at all.

Also, mines are one of the highest damage abilities sorcerers possess.

Flawlless

AltusVenifus wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Honestly this did a great job of showcasing nirn at its finest (Not discrediting two great players but pointing something out) But if you look at second round final fight, you ambushed directly into most of their mines while only being taken to 35% health (After watching multiple times its hard to tell but I think it was like 2-3k per mine)??? My mines tooltip is I believe 4300 (I'm only v8 keep in mind). If someone rolls into 3 of my mines especially on a stamina build, if I time curse with it they are almost always dead with curse + mines + streak. Also noticed in the next to last round streak was hitting you for about 1300-1600, my tooltip is 3k at v8.But nice win overall.

I personally hope they don't change Nirn, which might be selfish, I'm not 100% sure. But with TTK like 2.5 secs, nirn is the only thing that allows me to drag a fight into the sustain realm where I like it. Before I started using it, I would die to a magic user in like 1 unblocked attack... now I die in like 5 or 6... keep nirn, keep dodge roll, keep block casting, keep shields IMO... or nerf nirn, block casting, sheilds, and dodge roll... just don't pick one.

You're right, that's selfish. The fact is stamina builds can get similar sustain to shield stacking with dodge rolling/Rally/Vigor while also doing 10k+ damage per hit and magicka builds struggle to do even half that damage against people using nirn. That isn't balanced at all, hence most players running stam builds now.

Pixysticks

Nirn's honestly not that big of a deal until people start going way over the hardcap with it. Once people start pushing over 40k, then it's kind of lame. Seeing how much damage Sypher did in the video though I really doubt he had that much SR, so I don't think it would have mattered that much if he didn't use it.

Pixysticks

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

ToRelax

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

That would mean a stamina build can force a magicka build to spec as much as possible into spell penetration just using it's armor traits, while a magicka build would only get close to that level of physical resist using full heavy armor.
Sorry, how would that be fair?

Flawlless

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

They should make Nirn the same as Reinforced or make a new trait that gives physical resistance in the same amount as Nirn does spell resistance. Only then will it be balanced.

Pixysticks

ToRelax wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

That would mean a stamina build can force a magicka build to spec as much as possible into spell penetration just using it's armor traits, while a magicka build would only get close to that level of physical resist using full heavy armor.
Sorry, how would that be fair?

You should always be specced into as much spell penetration as you can get if you want to do good damage, lol. If you don't feel like you should have to spec heavy into penetration and instead want to worry about regen or other things, why should you do as much damage as someone who does?

LegendaryMage

Flawlless wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

They should make Nirn the same as Reinforced or make a new trait that gives physical resistance in the same amount as Nirn does spell resistance. Only then will it be balanced.

Reinforced is a good trait especially on large heavy armor pieces, it gives you more stats and then you can work with it better in the CP system too. In my opinion, Nirn should give maybe 2x more spell resist value than reinforced and that's it. Why should nirn be so much more powerful than other traits? Do you want game balance or not? Just because it was introduced last and increases just one value, doesn't mean it should multiply values into oblivion. Fix this stuff ASAP...

Nala_

ToRelax wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

That would mean a stamina build can force a magicka build to spec as much as possible into spell penetration just using it's armor traits, while a magicka build would only get close to that level of physical resist using full heavy armor.
Sorry, how would that be fair?

why do you even need physical resist if your a sorc stacking shields. the armor wont even benefit you if you have any shields up

ToRelax

Pixysticks wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

That would mean a stamina build can force a magicka build to spec as much as possible into spell penetration just using it's armor traits, while a magicka build would only get close to that level of physical resist using full heavy armor.
Sorry, how would that be fair?

You should always be specced into as much spell penetration as you can get if you want to do good damage, lol. If you don't feel like you should have to spec heavy into penetration and instead want to worry about regen or other things, why should you do as much damage as someone who does?

Ofc, but that should be the same for both magicka and stamina damage dealers, don't you think?

Nala_ wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

I think they can leave Nirn the way it is in the game now and it would be fine, but what they should change is making it so you can't exceed the hardcap of ~35k, so if you have penetration it will actually do something.

That would mean a stamina build can force a magicka build to spec as much as possible into spell penetration just using it's armor traits, while a magicka build would only get close to that level of physical resist using full heavy armor.
Sorry, how would that be fair?

why do you even need physical resist if your a sorc stacking shields. the armor wont even benefit you if you have any shields up

Because I die when my health pool hits 0, not when my shield breaks.

Waylander

Good fights.

Nirn is OP but agree hard to police it's use. Puts magica builds at a disadvantage unless they focus on penetration.

It would be interesting to know what was your and Aetch's spell resistance (and for balance what was the Arcane sorc's penetration)?

No vigor for Sypher/Aetch, something that ZOS is lowering to alliance 5, so for fairness, you could also limit vigor's use to fights where all participants are alliance rank 10 but obviously not a necessary requirement.

For the sake of more interesting group dynamics, agreeing that the group must not have 2 of the same class would be interesting imho. Would they have been sorc/nb combo's or would we see some more diversity.

DisgracefulMind

Sypher wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

You don't think Nirn is out of control? Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now against casters, it's purely defensive but it makes you unkillable if you're half decent at fighting. To give you an example just how powerful it is, I have fought a decent player with nirn and I had no chance of killing him, then we duel naked and fights are over in less than 10 seconds usually.

I would last for an hour or more vs that DK and many times get him low hp only to have him soul assaulted (30k+ tooltip) and not dent him. While at the same time, he deals top damage and can sometimes almost one shot me if I got no shields (his crits are like 70% of my 20K hp).

No one should be able to deal insane damage and take no damage at all. Nirn is utterly out of control and whenever I'm dueling someone using this trait I tell myself it's just good practice and nothing more. Please don't use it in tournaments, ban it and find a way to get rid of it. If you can't see how broken it is, go play a magica NB and duel a stamina dk in full nirn. Tell me if you can ever kill him (unless he's a total newbie).

edit: Any stamina spec in full nirn actually. They will be immune to your damage, and deal top damage in return to you. Try it, it's total hard mode.

I completely agree that it's OP, my own views regarding being able to deal damage / being tanky aside (from a 1v1 perspective, a well played sorc can nearly pull off similar feats with smaller strain on resource management or risk of death even compared to a roll dodge build)

We allowed it because we can't regulate it, ZOS is being incompetent with this trait by waiting so long to nerf it, but until then there is literally nothing we can do to prove if someone is using nirn or has other forms of mitigation. Similarly we can't regulate playstyles, if players want to spam fear, spam shields, take advantage of fossilize/uppercut combo, turtle inside mines waiting for your opponent to make the first move. All this comes into play eventually in a competitive environment so we regulate what we can and leave open the rest as long as it's not an exploit.

Germantrocity and Karstyll, we are up for a rematch and without nirn trait on both weapons/armor whenever you guys are available. I feel like if I was in your shoes I would be bothered that the trait is still in it's current state. So I completely understand your point of you.

Really, I'm just glad that this is out there so that ZoS can see how badly Nirn needs to be fixed, and fixed immediately. It's ruining an entire series of builds, and that's very, very sad for balance in this game, as I'm sure we all agree that we want nothing more for ESO but good balance. There is not a trait similar to Nirn that can give magicka users the ability to almost negate all stamina builds; therefore there needs to be a nerf on Nirn. ZoS has, I definitely agree, been entirely too incompetent in this matter, and it's time they realize this and do something.

We just want balance.

Of course we're down for a fight anytime, just need to work out a time when we're all online and free.

Soulac

Sypher wrote: »

Since we can't regulate Nirnhoned we decided to allow it in the tournament. I'm more than happy to rematch without Nirn gear or whitestrakes but the fact of the matter is Nirnhoned is not an exploit/bug it is an over powered mechanic (one of many used in the tournaments) which will be toned down but still be useful against users stacking spell damage / magicka. Also there were MANY teams in the tournament using the trait (German/Karstyll weren't you guys using it as well? Judging by your other fights it looked like you guys were). I'm not using you guys or anyone using it as an excuse for using nirnhoned but if you're going to fuss about a mechanic that is over powered we would have to ban many OP things from the tournaments.

Aetcha and I are looking forward to a rematch without Nirn.

Whitestrake is love. Whitestrake is life.
Oh you finally got me in my dodge cancels? *plop*

Pixysticks

Nerf Nirn.
Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
Make Fear blockable.
Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
Everyone rejoices.

Sypher

@Pixysticks PROFIT

Nivzruo_ESO

Nirnhorn woul

Pixysticks wrote: »

Nerf Nirn.
Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
Don't touch my fear
Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
Everyone rejoices.

Also bring Overload down to mortal status.

There I fixed it for you

Pixysticks

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Nirnhorn woul

Pixysticks wrote: »

Nerf Nirn.
Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
Don't touch my fear
Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
Everyone rejoices.

Also bring Overload down to mortal status.

There I fixed it for you

I've never really liked overload tbh; it feels really clunky to use, and the projectiles fly so slow that it's hard to hit people who know what they're doing.

Soulac

Pixysticks wrote: »

Nerf Nirn.
Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
Fear is fine.
Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
Everyone rejoices.

Make fear single target or whatever, but perm block need his counter.

dantator

To put it in perspective of how OP nirn is at the current state, when cross and I fought benzey and skaffa we both singled out benzey and his shields dropped instantly but when we got to his health, the lowest (and I'm probably being generous) his health dropped was like 80%. For those of you that don't know cross's combo, it can literally, in a instant, drop an opponents health from 100% to 0%.

Good thing we recorded it and when we re-watched it, we felt cheated. Without a doubt skaffa and benzey are great players but we had high hopes of winning against them. Also, what struck me equivalent to this nirn [snip] (excuse my french), was the fact that there were people that knew they were using it and didn't even bother to tell us. If we knew about it before the fight we would not fight the fight and instead request to fight stamina builds like Velconn and Jago.

Oh, and I want to mention that it is easy to regulate nirn. All you got to do is have me whip them. It is easy for me to hit for over 4k whips and over 7k crit. On vamps I hit 7k and I've hit 12k crit on vamps before. I was hitting 3k whips in a duel off to the side during the tournament on a dk that was a vamp (he knows who he is and he was [snip] talking saying "your build sucks, etc." when he was using nirn and petrifying spam) so clearly he was using nirn.

Can't wait till they fix nirn and yes I said "fix" because, even though it is working as intended, it is broken due to it not being up-to-date (out of balance).

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing, Profanity, Rude, and Insulting comments]

bosmern_ESO

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I only got one question. Why did you allow nirn gear in the tournament? I'm sure myself and many others would like to see a rematch with normal gear.

Nirn is normal gear, they do need to change how powerful it is, but thats how it is at this time.

Soulac

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I only got one question. Why did you allow nirn gear in the tournament? I'm sure myself and many others would like to see a rematch with normal gear.

Nirn is normal gear, they do need to change how powerful it is, but thats how it is at this time.

Normal gear which grants more spellresi than intended.
I didn't test or proof the formula, but it seems that the percentages are added multiplicative instead of additive.

Base x Nirnbonus x Nirnbonus x Nirnbonus x Nirnbonus x Nirnbonus etc.
9000 x 24.5% x 24.5% x 24.5% x 24.5% x 24.5% = 26.920

Instead of

Base x (Nirnbonus x amount)
9000 x (24.5 x 5) = 20.052

Still much, but not as much as the value above.

Ps: does anyone know how zos calculates their spellresi?

aco5712

there is a way to regulate this for tournaments.... have a caster judge hit someone with a spell. If they reduce the damage to more the half, they obviously run full nirn (unless they are a tank). Whoever wins, immediately hit them with the same spell after to make sure they didnt change before it started.... simple....

fighting with nirn is just stupid in a small scale tournament.....

olsborg

Spell Penetrations Schmenetration, people can go so far above the hardcap that a full penetration-focused caster cant get more then a mere 5% (maybe) more dmg against a nirnhonedstacker. So it makes no difference, it needs a huge nerf.

Someone like @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should read through this thread for all the valuable feedback regarding this and expedite the incoming planned fix for nirnhoned trait and not let it be on live until the end of june.

Thanks

trimsic_ESO

This video shows evidence of some PvP imbalance we have already expressed or seen in this forum.

1) The burst damage of stamina NB is too high. Both NB are assisting the same target, forcing the sorcs to remain in a defensive stance.
2) When the sorcs have finally a small window for some offensive move, they are immediately feared.

Hence the proposals we could see in this forum:
- Burst damage shall be reduced.
- Fear needs a longer immunity.

This being said, I wonder if the two sorcs have used the right strategy. They have stayed closed to each other, hence taking the risk of being both feared at the same time. When one sorc was assisted, the other one should have tried to focus one NB at some distance. The assisted sorc would have used teleport in an attempt to break the assist.