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2v2 PvP Tournament - Final Resut

  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    They made fear unblockable because more than ever before, more and more people are running builds with endless resources. Pre 1.6 you could eventually get stamina down to finally get their block down while feared but it took awhile and people could deal with it, the attackers and defenders. Now that's WAY harder when people (even magicka builds) can run with enough stamina regen and CP passives to never run out of stamina. This would mean fear would never get to be used against someone with block down. If you are running out of stamina you need to practice better resource management because right now its super easy to maintain. The skill would not only be nerfed but made useless.

    Reduce number of people feared okay fine, whatever. Give a longer CC immunity fine, I'll compromise. But DO NOT make it so you can hold block like pre 1.6, it will be the end of the skill.

    I don't see a way to block like it was possible in 1.5 except if you use Siphoning Attacks.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Nala_
    Nala_
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    They made fear unblockable because more than ever before, more and more people are running builds with endless resources. Pre 1.6 you could eventually get stamina down to finally get their block down while feared but it took awhile and people could deal with it, the attackers and defenders. Now that's WAY harder when people (even magicka builds) can run with enough stamina regen and CP passives to never run out of stamina. This would mean fear would never get to be used against someone with block down. If you are running out of stamina you need to practice better resource management because right now its super easy to maintain. The skill would not only be nerfed but made useless.

    Reduce number of people feared okay fine, whatever. Give a longer CC immunity fine, I'll compromise. But DO NOT make it so you can hold block like pre 1.6, it will be the end of the skill.

    I don't see a way to block like it was possible in 1.5 except if you use Siphoning Attacks.

    they normalized block cost so that no matter what you just cant sit and hold block forever anymore, even with siphoning trust me i tried
  • NoRefunds
    NoRefunds
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    That's the point I was trying to make before, you can stack so much penetration in this game that unless people are going over the hard-cap, it really doesn't matter. If you don't want to stack penetration, that's fine-- but then why should you be able to complain that you "don't think you do adequate damage" to people who stack spell resistance?

    Unless people are pushing over 35k, spell resistance isn't really even doing much to people who stack spell penetration.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD
    EU | PC | AD
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Iyas
    Iyas
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    harvens is buggy for focus rating and armor penetration
    Noricum/ Kitesquad/ PC/EU

    Kitesquad Vol. 1

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=6tGxK9KRrEI
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    I still dont understand all the rage about nerfing sorc pvp burst, its much less then the stam nbs burst in pvp. Not calling for a nerf to nbs, just trying to understand why calling out for nerf to something thats not the most OP at something. *shrugs*

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    [...]

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    The fact he didn't go over hardcap doesn't mean others don't, I don't see what that bit has to do with the discussion.

    In fact that's half the issue with nirn, that it allows you to build resistance well above the cap very easily, meaning that even after you take a huge % off with spell pen it still mitigates close to hard cap.


    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:08PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    Soulac wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Nerf Nirn.
    Drop Crystal Frag damage 10-15%.
    Fear is fine.
    Lower the coefficients on stamina NB morphs by 5%.
    Buff the coefficients on magicka NB morphs by 5%.
    Add a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
    Buff the damage of the magicka morph of Lava Whip by 15%.
    Give Solar Flare a 35% chance to be instant cast when using any other spell that costs magicka.
    Release 2v2 and 3v3 arenas.
    Everyone rejoices.

    Make fear single target or whatever, but perm block need his counter.



    Does Agony ignore block now?
    Was under the impression that, with no Fear in the picture, each class now has a single-target CC that ignores block.

    What they really need to do is release Spell Crafting so players can have access to the Courage spell that grants immunity to Fear.
    Jbugz97 wrote: »
    was their any magica NB that made it far in the ranking ?

    Miss Sypher using his Magicka Nightblade build, but he has stated in the past that he will probably be using the Stamina build until Nirnhoned is fixed since the impact of the imbalance is so great.
    Unfortunate that Magicka Nightblade is in such a hard place compared to the Stamina equivalent, but that's how ZOS' balancing goes.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:10PM
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    That's the point I was trying to make before, you can stack so much penetration in this game that unless people are going over the hard-cap, it really doesn't matter. If you don't want to stack penetration, that's fine-- but then why should you be able to complain that you "don't think you do adequate damage" to people who stack spell resistance?

    Unless people are pushing over 35k, spell resistance isn't really even doing much to people who stack spell penetration.

    You've tested that it is possible to reach 35k spell penetration? Seems the addon is a bit finicky so not sure if you are relying on that or actual tests.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    That's the point I was trying to make before, you can stack so much penetration in this game that unless people are going over the hard-cap, it really doesn't matter. If you don't want to stack penetration, that's fine-- but then why should you be able to complain that you "don't think you do adequate damage" to people who stack spell resistance?

    Unless people are pushing over 35k, spell resistance isn't really even doing much to people who stack spell penetration.

    You've tested that it is possible to reach 35k spell penetration? Seems the addon is a bit finicky so not sure if you are relying on that or actual tests.

    No, it's not possible to get that high, but you can get into the high 20's. Yeah, ignore the addon-- it hasn't been accurate for a long time now.

    If someone has about 35k spell resist, they would take about 10% less damage from spells (If you massed spell pen).
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    [...]

    Back to topic: Spell Penetration

    You said you can penetrate in the 20s which is true. But as almost all spell penetration (except debuff skills like Ele Drain) is % of the targets resistance, that requires people to have resistance that is pushing 50s. You don't penetrate 20s on somebody with 35k which would make your penetration be almost 60%.

    I have not seen such high % of penetration. If you have managed that, please enlighten me I'm all ears.

    [Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:12PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    But as almost all spell penetration is % based, that requires people to have resistance that is pushing 50s. You don't penetrate 20s on somebody with 35k which would make your penetration be almost 60%.

    Most of the penetration is a flat rate, not % based. Only Sharpened/Nirn on weap and erosion are percentage based.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    ✭✭✭
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    But as almost all spell penetration is % based, that requires people to have resistance that is pushing 50s. You don't penetrate 20s on somebody with 35k which would make your penetration be almost 60%.

    Most of the penetration is a flat rate, not % based. Only Sharpened/Nirn on weap and erosion are percentage based.

    Most?

    - Spell Erosion is %
    - Nirn/Sharp is %
    - Penetrating Magic (destro passive) is %

    - Concentration (LA passive) is flat
    - Breach debuff is flat

    Which leaves with the mundus stone, which I have no clue what it is, but it seems significant.

    I don't think most penetration is flat, no.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    I don't think most penetration is flat, no.

    Light armor is flat, Apprentice is Flat, Nirn on Weap is %.

    I use 5 piece light armor, all divines with Apprentice, and 2 Nirn Weaps. So my penetration is = a flat rate + 18% of their resist. If I can ignore 20k+ Spell resist on someone who has 34k, which is the higher value, the flat rate or the %?

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:13PM
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage.

    Sorry, not as simple as it seems. There are are many ways to increase "damage" in this game. Or at least there is supposed to be. Critical, high magicka pool, spell damage, synergies/buffs, etc., all of these approaches become suboptimal because the only specific way to counter nirn - which mitigates all these forms of "damage" with little opportunity cost - is to stack spell penetration. Also stacking spell penetration is not necessary dedicated to increasing your build to damage as it does little to those targets that have little spell resistance.

    You may deem it ok or balanced to have the arms race between stacking spell penetration and spell resistance cancel each other out while eroding the viability of alternative means of damage, sets, weapons, traits, etc., but I find it incredibly boring.

    [Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
    Edited by ZOS_BradL on April 29, 2015 11:14PM
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage. Hard concept to grasp, I know.

    Sorry, not as simple as it seems. There are are many ways to increase "damage" in this game. Or at least there is supposed to be. Critical, high magicka pool, spell damage, synergies/buffs, etc., all of these approaches become suboptimal because the only specific way to counter nirn - which mitigates all these forms of "damage" with little opportunity cost - is to stack spell penetration. Also stacking spell penetration is not necessary dedicated to increasing your build to damage as it does little to those targets that have little spell resistance.

    You may deem it ok or balanced to have the arms race between stacking spell penetration and spell resistance cancel each other out while eroding the viability of alternative means of damage, sets, weapons, traits, etc., but I find it incredibly boring.

    That would be why you increase your max magicka, spell damage, and spell penetration at the same time. I don't know why you seem to think you can only do one or the other. It's not hard to grab apprentice and use a penetration trait on your weapon, just like it's not hard for someone to use all nirn on armor and stack up their spell resist. Neither of those things has anything to do with what stats we optimize or sets we wear or spec we decide to go.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Jitterbug
    Jitterbug
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    babanovac wrote: »
    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Nirn is the single most OP thing in the game right now

    Clearly forgetting Argonian swim speed, but whatever...

    Game breaking to say the least

    Yeah, those pesky lizards have had it too good for too long
  • Jitterbug
    Jitterbug
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    Aimelin wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Aimelin wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    germantrocity, being able to use mines to completely shut down any melee build is completely broken and you should realize that, saying that its not fair that your mines do not oneshot people trying to hit you in melee its completely ***. nirnohed is simply reducing the damage of those mines by a 30-40%, taking it into the balanced zone

    So scales shuttin down every bow and magica build relying on projectiles is not completely broken i guess?

    No, as sypher thinks DKs need a buff ..... lel

    dks do need a buff, lmao. you must be a bow/bow nb

    in what area do DKs need a buff ?

    and sure i'm a bow/bow nb with templar skills

    I don't know but all I see DKs doing lately is survive. Which they are good at, but it might get boring to just hold block and keep up buffs - they need a dps spec as much as the other classes
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    EVERY player worth their weight currently stacks spellresist WAY beyond hardcap. So your point is really moot. The ppl you need the dmg against are the ones that are running around with 45k + spell resist.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    I don't think most penetration is flat, no.

    Light armor is flat, Apprentice is Flat, Nirn on Weap is %.

    I use 5 piece light armor, all divines with Apprentice, and 2 Nirn Weaps. So my penetration is = a flat rate + 18% of their resist. If I can ignore 20k+ Spell resist on someone who has 34k, which is the higher value, the flat rate or the %?

    Do you understand now?

    No. You didn't say, what part of that 20k is from your Spell Erosion? Without giving me that bit of information the calculations are incomplete.

    You can build spell Erosion up to 25% with 100 CPs. You get 10% from destro passive and 18% from nirn weps. That's 53% you can build in total. Which means that on a heavy armor build with nirn that pushes 50k spell resistance target you can ignore over 25k from percentage reductions.

    Which is higher than anything you'll get from any flat reduction in the game.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Derra wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    EVERY player worth their weight currently stacks spellresist WAY beyond hardcap. So your point is really moot. The ppl you need the dmg against are the ones that are running around with 45k + spell resist.

    I think I see maybe one person out of every 50 I fight that has spell resist beyond hardcap, but that's just my observation.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    I don't think most penetration is flat, no.

    Light armor is flat, Apprentice is Flat, Nirn on Weap is %.

    I use 5 piece light armor, all divines with Apprentice, and 2 Nirn Weaps. So my penetration is = a flat rate + 18% of their resist. If I can ignore 20k+ Spell resist on someone who has 34k, which is the higher value, the flat rate or the %?

    Do you understand now?

    No. You didn't say, what part of that 20k is from your Spell Erosion? Without giving me that bit of information the calculations are incomplete.

    You can build spell Erosion up to 25% with 100 CPs. You get 10% from destro passive and 18% from nirn weps. That's 53% you can build in total. Which means that on a heavy armor build with nirn that pushes 50k spell resistance target you can ignore over 25k from percentage reductions.

    Which is higher than anything you'll get from any flat reduction in the game.

    And putting points in spell erosion will always net less damage then putting points in other passives like elfborn, thaumaturge, elemental mastery, etc. So there's really no point to ever put points into it, or at least more than 1 or 2. The destro passive only works for destruction spells, and I don't even use a dest. staff.

    You asked me how I ignored 20k+ spell resist on targets ~35k, I told you. Whether or not you're happy with my answer I could care less, if you don't want to accept it then you can go back to complaining about how OP nirn is.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Nala_
    Nala_
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    piercing and spell erosion only really become worth it when your main type of damage alternates between .1% and .2% per champion point level. so probably once you hit champion level 300 or a little above it then piercing and spell erosion will add more damage to abilities then just increasing the other nodes
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    NoRefunds wrote: »
    Pixysticks wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Nala_ wrote: »
    Dositheus wrote: »
    Just watched that again. Looks like Sypher was running 5 piece Whitestrakes, in Nirnhoned. Which means.. the mines didn't take him down to 1/3rd from 19k hp, but from around 30k hp once you take into account top tier Whitestrakes bonus. Those mines did a good bit of damage. Not saying that Nirnhoned isn't too powerful, that is kind of obvious. But, that was a bit more than just simple nirnhoned. That looks like it was also an incredibly powerful damage shield ontop of it.

    whoa whoa, please dont insert informed and logical information into this thread. this thread was hijacked so the 2 losing sorcs and every other angry one that exists can come and vent against nirn so they feel like better players.

    Still with every penetration available i´m getting 50% dmg reduced by nirn - yeah even with apprentice.

    If your target has 70k spell resist.

    Pixysticks with his set up completely ignores all enemy spell resist, i have 34k spell res and he was hitting me for 13k frags...Sorcs just need to stack a bit of spell penetration and nirnohed becomes useless

    Does it? That 13k was almost certainly a crit. Ask him how much he crits light armor wearers without nirn and I bet it's a helluva lot more than 13k. Useless my arse. If it is useless why are you wearing it. Some people XD

    I can't tell if your'e a bigger troll than Nala, or vice versa.

    Why? You truly believe Nirn is useless like the guy says?

    It's not useless, but unless you're going over the hardcap (which he wasn't), it can just be countered by massing spell penetration.

    Oh, is that all? It's a relief that if I devote my entire build to massing spell penetration then I can counter those people who just use some armor traits to nullify one of the two damaging options in the game.

    Yeah, dedicating your entire build to do as much damage as possible, usually results in you doing more damage. Hard concept to grasp, I know.

    Sorry, not as simple as it seems. There are are many ways to increase "damage" in this game. Or at least there is supposed to be. Critical, high magicka pool, spell damage, synergies/buffs, etc., all of these approaches become suboptimal because the only specific way to counter nirn - which mitigates all these forms of "damage" with little opportunity cost - is to stack spell penetration. Also stacking spell penetration is not necessary dedicated to increasing your build to damage as it does little to those targets that have little spell resistance.

    You may deem it ok or balanced to have the arms race between stacking spell penetration and spell resistance cancel each other out while eroding the viability of alternative means of damage, sets, weapons, traits, etc., but I find it incredibly boring.

    That would be why you increase your max magicka, spell damage, and spell penetration at the same time. I don't know why you seem to think you can only do one or the other. It's not hard to grab apprentice and use a penetration trait on your weapon, just like it's not hard for someone to use all nirn on armor and stack up their spell resist. Neither of those things has anything to do with what stats we optimize or sets we wear or spec we decide to go.

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?

    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
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    Nala_ wrote: »
    piercing and spell erosion only really become worth it when your main type of damage alternates between .1% and .2% per champion point level. so probably once you hit champion level 300 or a little above it then piercing and spell erosion will add more damage to abilities then just increasing the other nodes

    Yeah, well if you think about it, even if someone is at 35k spell resistance, it would take 2% spell penetration to drop their 50% damage reduction to 49%. So even if they doubled the value that the Spell Erosion node penetrated, it still wouldn't be as good as the other nodes, damage-wise.
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
  • Pixysticks
    Pixysticks
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know it's not hard to grab the apprentice stone, but why do I as a magicka user have to be forced to in order to compete? Why can't I have the viable option of using the defending trait on a weapon as a stamina user? Weapons users at least have the option to forgo 5 pieces of medium because their means of actually penetrating their target's defenses are not tied to that set bonus.

    I do not see the opportunity cost for stacking nirn as being the same for stacking spell pen / damage as you do. Armor traits are a joke; all of them are small bonuses that have little value in and of themselves. Nirn just costs gold. There is hardly any sacrifice for wearing it. Of course it is not hard. In fact it's brainless. Someone mention before in the thread that even if nirn is nerfed into the ground, they'd still wear it because all the other traits are lackluster.

    There are things you have to give up for spell penetration. If I grab the apprentice stone, then I don't have the mage, thief, atronach, all of which are desirable and have a discernible impact on a charter's overall effectiveness in a way that the infused trait does not. Sure, give me a nirn staff, but that means no precise. Again a legitimate sacrifice. I mean magicka theorycrafting is already is incredibly dull and boring as it is right now that 4 pieces of craglorn vendor trash Martial Knowledge is consensus best, inferno staves are the only real choice, and now you think it is OK to further limit the viability of builds further because we can get into an arms race to compete with an armor trait?
    And if you use all nirn, you have to give up every single set that is not crafted. I really don't think grabbing a certain mundus stone is that big of a difference than not being able to use 75% of the sets in the game, but that may just be me.
    I, and I think most people who have expressed misgivings about Nirn in this thread and elsewhere, have not claimed that nirn can't be countered. Rather, that a few pieces of armor traits should not provide so much protection against all types of magicka builds.

    Everyone knows that, including the developers. But the reason this conversation got started was because the amount of spell resistance that the people were using in the video, would have been counterable if they used the right mundus and armor traits. So de-railing this thread into a 7-page rant about how people shouldn't have to change their mundus to counter someone else's armor traits, is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me.

    Edited by Pixysticks on April 29, 2015 6:59PM
    Alacrity

    Retired 05/04/15.
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