Steel Tornado (The new Impulse)

Maulkin

Legedric wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

You are too kind, I don't deserve such praise

Artheiron wrote: »

I'm a player that is able to counter spammers. I just dont sit there and eat their steel tornados. I don't see 5x steel tornados in my damage recap.

If you haven't seen 5 Steel Tornado's in your death recap it means you either don't PvP or you don't play the game how it's supposed to be played. And the way it's supposed to be played is to defend resources and keeps, areas where the steel tornado trains inevitably descent upon.

My build, 1v1 or 1vX playstyles etc. don't even come into this discussion. I don't see what it has to do with the subject.

Sanct16

Varicite wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

Impulse was never a good AoE, why are we still comparing the worst AoE in the game to the best and acting like we should balance around the lowest common denominator?

Impulse was ONLY ever good because it bypassed blocking, but now that is no longer case, so its completely irrelevant to any real discussion concerning damaging AoEs.

It has ALWAYS been mostly a utility spell (easy access to Minor Mangle debuff or an AoE DoT w/ a 40% chance to proc Burning on top) that was simply appropriated for damage because it was more reliable than having literally every stamina AoE in the game do half damage to blocking players.

Now that it can be blocked like every other AoE, it's just kinda okay, which is why the Destro staff comes w/ multiple AoE abilities as Impulse on its own was never really meant to be spammed just looking at the nature of its morphs (a DoT that you don't want to overwrite and a health debuff that you only need to apply once every 30 seconds).

Steel Tornado is a good AoE w/ decent upfront damage and the best range. Certainly, it's always been the best AoE in the game, but simply wasn't used as much because pre-1.6 it was just suicide to try to bomb AoE groups as a stamina build and it could be blocked and have its damage neutered anyway.

Now those things are no longer the case. I don't see the issue. If not Steel Tornado, everyone would just be spamming the next-best AoE in the game while zerging, because that's the nature of zerging and something is going to be the best to use for that.

Tornado is just a symptom of a much larger framework of problems, which are: near-infinite resource pools, low TTKs, lowered susceptibility to magical damage through Nirnhoned, non-zerg playstyles extremely discouraged by AP mechanics, just to name a few.

So how about a 50 meter aoe that does 15k damage? I mean something is gonna be spammed anyway, why bother with balancing at all then...

A balanced game should give you multiple options that are close to equally good. At the moment steel tornado is by far the best instant aoe, so it should be brought in line with the others.

You weren't here saying this for the past year that Steel Tornado has existed in the exact same form while Impulse bypassed block entirely, making it the ability of choice for AoE zergs.

Nobody was.

Why do you think that is, if not for changes that occured post-1.6 not to Steel Tornado itself, but to the meta that has brought Steel Tornado to the forefront of zerg gaming?

If the problem is Steel Tornado itself, why do you not have a single post pre-1.6 talking about "bringing it in line"?

That seems like a pretty long time to be perfectly fine w/ the "balance" of Steel Tornado having ALWAYS been the best instant AoE, and yet now here you are. Interesting.

But what do I know, I'm just the guy who wants to look at the big picture instead of tunnel-visioning on the symptoms the underlying disease is causing.

Because pre 1.6 impulse couldnt be blocked but steel tornado could be blocked. Thats some form of balance: Big range vs unblockable. Now Steel Tornado is better in every way.

Sanct16

Varicite wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

Or Impulse just sucks. Because it does.

That's like saying normal, modern cars aren't balanced because somebody out there is still driving a Model T. All of our cars need to be tuned down to Model T speeds and handling capabilities.

so what magica aoe is close to steel tornado?

Something get out of balanced if everything else gets worse btw...

Garion

Varicite wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

Or Impulse just sucks. Because it does.

That's like saying normal, modern cars aren't balanced because somebody out there is still driving a Model T. All of our cars need to be tuned down to Model T speeds and handling capabilities.

Possibly one of the most ridiculous, non applicable analogies I have ever seen.

glavius

They should start by fixing 100% armor ignore with sharpened mace equipped

Varicite

Sanct16 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

Or Impulse just sucks. Because it does.

That's like saying normal, modern cars aren't balanced because somebody out there is still driving a Model T. All of our cars need to be tuned down to Model T speeds and handling capabilities.

so what magica aoe is close to steel tornado?

Something get out of balanced if everything else gets worse btw...

What magicka single-target ability is close to what stamina can pull off currently?

Certainly, things are out of whack balance-wise, but they will absolutely continue to be out of whack if the only solution to the problem that people can come up w/ is to focus on these superficial issues and continue to ignore the underlying problems causing them.

Garion wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

Or Impulse just sucks. Because it does.

That's like saying normal, modern cars aren't balanced because somebody out there is still driving a Model T. All of our cars need to be tuned down to Model T speeds and handling capabilities.

Possibly one of the most ridiculous, non applicable analogies I have ever seen.

Instead of trying to poke holes in simple analogies, perhaps you'd care to enlighten me as to why YOU feel that we should balance all of the game's AoE abilities around the worst one?

Artheiron

glavius wrote: »

They should start by fixing 100% armor ignore with sharpened mace equipped

Finally someone knows what h

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

You are too kind, I don't deserve such praise

Artheiron wrote: »

I'm a player that is able to counter spammers. I just dont sit there and eat their steel tornados. I don't see 5x steel tornados in my damage recap.

If you haven't seen 5 Steel Tornado's in your death recap it means you either don't PvP or you don't play the game how it's supposed to be played. And the way it's supposed to be played is to defend resources and keeps, areas where the steel tornado trains inevitably descent upon.

My build, 1v1 or 1vX playstyles etc. don't even come into this discussion. I don't see what it has to do with the subject.

Sorry what am I supposed to do? sit there and eat it?

Look I'm so sorry that your magnificent 1vX build didn't work for steel tornados. But I pvp'd more than enough to say that. Me and my guild fought against top tier guilds, both won and lost many times, we constantly theorycraft and keep our numbers around 12-16 for improving our group abilities. So even if they nerf steel tornados, we'll find something else to fill your damage recap.

Sile

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

You are too kind, I don't deserve such praise

Artheiron wrote: »

I'm a player that is able to counter spammers. I just dont sit there and eat their steel tornados. I don't see 5x steel tornados in my damage recap.

If you haven't seen 5 Steel Tornado's in your death recap it means you either don't PvP or you don't play the game how it's supposed to be played. And the way it's supposed to be played is to defend resources and keeps, areas where the steel tornado trains inevitably descent upon.

My build, 1v1 or 1vX playstyles etc. don't even come into this discussion. I don't see what it has to do with the subject.

You don't play on NA so you wouldn't know Arth, as he doesn't know you. Arth PvPs more than enough to have his opinion weigh just as much as yours.

That said, the screenshot you posted only have Tornado from 2 sources. Tooltips for Tornado are around the same as Impulse.

The difference comes from Nirn stacking and broken armour pen for melee. Most Tornado tooltips are ~3-3.5k mark in Cyro, remove the mitigation, and apply the crit modifier, it's not outlandish to see 6k crits.

There is some strange maths that starts to happen when you get closer to 0 mitigation though, as in it starts to apply a bonus to damage at a certain point.

qsnoopyjr

Everyone's just going to use whatever is the meta.

You stack up in a massive zerg.
You use whatever AoE is the best and currently steel tornado is that meta.
Barrier
Negate
Cleanse

Even if they nerf steel tornado... Everyone's just going to switch to whatever AoE dishes out the most damage.
They gonna have to nerf that too, endless nerfs.

Maulkin

Sile wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

You are too kind, I don't deserve such praise

Artheiron wrote: »

I'm a player that is able to counter spammers. I just dont sit there and eat their steel tornados. I don't see 5x steel tornados in my damage recap.

If you haven't seen 5 Steel Tornado's in your death recap it means you either don't PvP or you don't play the game how it's supposed to be played. And the way it's supposed to be played is to defend resources and keeps, areas where the steel tornado trains inevitably descent upon.

My build, 1v1 or 1vX playstyles etc. don't even come into this discussion. I don't see what it has to do with the subject.

You don't play on NA so you wouldn't know Arth, as he doesn't know you. Arth PvPs more than enough to have his opinion weigh just as much as yours.

That said, the screenshot you posted only have Tornado from 2 sources. Tooltips for Tornado are around the same as Impulse.

The difference comes from Nirn stacking and broken armour pen for melee. Most Tornado tooltips are ~3-3.5k mark in Cyro, remove the mitigation, and apply the crit modifier, it's not outlandish to see 6k crits.

There is some strange maths that starts to happen when you get closer to 0 mitigation though, as in it starts to apply a bonus to damage at a certain point.

If you had read the thread from the start, my initial screenshot was an indication of the damage the skill does, not proof of an entire steel tornado train. There have been screenshots aplenty since then, of death recaps recaps filled with 5 steel tornados, that have been posted here.

I don't know Arth, but when he makes ridiculous statements like "I never die to steel tornado" I'm inclined to doubt the validity of his input. That's on him, not me. When he stops posting rubbish, I might start taking him more seriously.

Moving on, your statement is beyond biased. You say tooltips from Tornado are same as Impluse. That's true.

But Steel Tornado does an extra 15% damage on Immobile or Stunned targets (Ruffian Passive) that's not on tooltip. It's got a double execute damage bonus (skill itself + Slaughter passive) that's also not on tooltip. It's a fricking execute that has the same base damage as any other AoE skill, imagine Impale or Mage's Fury with same base damage as Crushing Shock or Swallow Soul. And on top of that it covers over 4 times the area.

In other words it will always hit as hard as Impulse and potentially a helluva lot harder even though it hits a ridiculously huge area.

The issue with physical/spell penetration and nirn/maces is just the cherry on top of the massive crap cake. But even when those get fixed it takes an extreme amount of bias and gall to say that Impulse, or in fact any other AoE skill, is even remotely close to Steel Tornado or that the latter is balanced in this game.

kevlarto_ESO

Once the sharpened trait gets fixed again, I think we will see decline in the use of ST, this game is to heavily aoe lopsided in both pve and pvp, and that is why we have some of the issues we have today.