Steel Tornado (The new Impulse)

pppontus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Impulse was never as good as whiners made it out to be. It's main redeeming feature before 1.6 was that it could not be blocked. This skill quite frankly now is not very good and should not be used as a benchmark. If zerglings are spamming some other skill it is not because that other skill is OP, it is because impulse is a poor performer.

I dislike it when people post screenshots because we do not know all the factors that went into those screenshots. Impulse has a HIGHER damage coefficient than steel tornado. Those are the game's intended mechanics. If the game is not following it's intended mechanics that's one thing, but just calling for nerfs with a screenshot as "proof" is not the best way to go. Steel tornado hits for barely 3k on my tool tip...why are you taking so much damage? Are you low health, rooted, and other conditions that triggers a duel wield/class damage buff that is making this skill hit hard?

Crit. I haven't checked the math on this but you should be able to have over 2-2,5k weapon damage and 100% weapon crit. If I get some time tonight I might try it. That would lead to.. Something like this.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Your tact seems to be "don't touch an OP skill even if it ends up ruining PvP". I'm not cool with that

Varicite wrote: »

Me: Radius could be tweaked, regen mechanics need to be looked at, make small changes first and see how it effects the issue.

How very strange, this seems to be the exact OPPOSITE of what you seem to think I'm saying.

But I'm the one intentionally misinterpreting? Hmm.

Oughash

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

2. Steel Tornado gets a 15% dmg buff when your enemies are stunned or immobilized (read: talons). The key in group play is movement.
3. Steel Tornado gets 20% dmg bonus against low-health enemies.

Are these two buffs multiplicative with one another or additive?

I don't know. These bonuses are from the DW skill line. Steel tornado also has a tool-tip stated bonus against low-health enemies. Base dmg of Steel Tornado is about the same as Impulse. However, these three dmg bonuses, plus the ability to stack Weapon Dmg high, plus the ability to stack weapon crit higher, PLUS the 11m radius make it the best AoE in the game bar none. The two bow AoEs come close.

Derra

Also steel Tornado builds have the best grp heal (given enough people stack it) in the game with alliance war rank 24...

Varicite

Derra wrote: »

Also steel Tornado builds have the best grp heal (given enough people stack it) in the game with alliance war rank 24...

Yeah, I wouldn't say that's at all specific to "Steel Tornado builds", though. If you're running a stam build and have the rank for it, Vigor should probably be on your bar.

Joy_Division

pppontus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Impulse was never as good as whiners made it out to be. It's main redeeming feature before 1.6 was that it could not be blocked. This skill quite frankly now is not very good and should not be used as a benchmark. If zerglings are spamming some other skill it is not because that other skill is OP, it is because impulse is a poor performer.

I dislike it when people post screenshots because we do not know all the factors that went into those screenshots. Impulse has a HIGHER damage coefficient than steel tornado. Those are the game's intended mechanics. If the game is not following it's intended mechanics that's one thing, but just calling for nerfs with a screenshot as "proof" is not the best way to go. Steel tornado hits for barely 3k on my tool tip...why are you taking so much damage? Are you low health, rooted, and other conditions that triggers a duel wield/class damage buff that is making this skill hit hard?

Crit. I haven't checked the math on this but you should be able to have over 2-2,5k weapon damage and 100% weapon crit. If I get some time tonight I might try it. That would lead to.. Something like this.

Well, if that is true, that is a problem with the ease in which it is possible to stake that much weapon damage and weapon crit, not with the Steel Tornado skill.

I will say I don't find all the "Nerf X" threads accompanied by screenshots of people dying very productive. If wrecking blow, steel tornado, hardened ward, radiant destruction, sorc magicka stacking, DK endless dodge rolling, lethal arrows are all OP, then that tells me the game is reasonably balanced with respect to classes and playstyles. Of course, this will not sorcs from insisting they are special flowers that deserve to have their shields based off magicka, WB spammers from telling everyone it is ok that the skill can't be interrupted, etc.

What it seems to me here is that there are *many* builds that can use a *variety* of ways to quickly kill and frustrate a player for them to take a screenshot and insist something needs to be nerfed.

The game has fundamentally changed from last year when softcaps and limited gear selection limited to power a player could potentially have. I remember when 80 (!) magicka regeneration was over the soft cap!. Eventually that got changed to something like 140. Now in 1.6 I can have ridiculous sustain without even trying. On my sorcerer I have zero pieces of gear dedicated to recovery and still use food (I know drinks are way better) and I *still* do NOT run out of mana. The amount of ways in which we can accumulate and utilize power and sustain that at present is many. A single nerf to Wrecking Blow, steel toramdo, hardened ward, or whatever else won't stop the periodic complaining and accompanying screenshots.

Emma_Overload

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

Threads like these are the (main) reason I HATE PvP so much.

Now you want to nerf Cost Reduction and Regen? Two of the VERY FEW good things to come out of 1.6 and the Champion System, and you want to take them away? Just because you got killed by a "tornado spamming zerg" or whatever in Cyrodiil, you want to RUIN PvE for thousands of players?

REALLY???

.

Maulkin

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

Emma_Overload

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

In 1.5, I could use massive Critical Surge heals to help me survive an intense encounter. With 1.6+, I need to either become half-tank or half-healer in order to solo the toughest content. In either case, the more regen, the better. Blocking costs stamina, and healing costs magicka - it's that simple. You can never have too much regen! The fact that you mention having some OTHER GUY keep Bloodspawn "at bay" tells me everything. You obviously have no idea how insanely difficult this game can be for solo players tackling group PvE content, or you wouldn't be accusing me of "hyperbole" or whatever.

pppontus

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

In 1.5, I could use massive Critical Surge heals to help me survive an intense encounter. With 1.6+, I need to either become half-tank or half-healer in order to solo the toughest content. In either case, the more regen, the better. Blocking costs stamina, and healing costs magicka - it's that simple. You can never have too much regen! The fact that you mention having some OTHER GUY keep Bloodspawn "at bay" tells me everything. You obviously have no idea how insanely difficult this game can be for solo players tackling group PvE content, or you wouldn't be accusing me of "hyperbole" or whatever.

Yes, let's balance group PvE and PvP for solo players soloing group content.

I thought we were suggesting balance changes that wouldn't make the entire game population quit. I misunderstood!

Varicite

pppontus wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

In 1.5, I could use massive Critical Surge heals to help me survive an intense encounter. With 1.6+, I need to either become half-tank or half-healer in order to solo the toughest content. In either case, the more regen, the better. Blocking costs stamina, and healing costs magicka - it's that simple. You can never have too much regen! The fact that you mention having some OTHER GUY keep Bloodspawn "at bay" tells me everything. You obviously have no idea how insanely difficult this game can be for solo players tackling group PvE content, or you wouldn't be accusing me of "hyperbole" or whatever.

Yes, let's balance group PvE and PvP for solo players soloing group content.

I thought we were suggesting balance changes that wouldn't make the entire game population quit. I misunderstood!

Strange, it sounded a lot more like the OP wants to make sweeping changes to the skill w/out even stopping to consider how it might effect other avenues of gameplay.

The posters you are quoting have every right to be wary of such a thing, because doing what the OP suggests would be detrimental to other facets of gameplay in the worst case, and even in the BEST case is an extremely amateur and terrible way to implement changes.

Small steps, I say.

Rune_Relic

OK...so which way does every one want to go ?

Hi stamina regen > reduce burst damage to compensate
Hi burst damage > reduce stamina regen to compensate

..because it looks to me that we have to have one or the other or a very tricky balance somewhere between.

I hated stamina regen in 1.5...it was non existent. Stamina builds were burst builds.
Now there a few players at the top of the food chain that can regen indefinitely.
I like the idea of better sustain...so if the price is burst damage reduction to balance that out then fair enough.

BUT is it simply a case that armour sets is throwing everything out of kilter ?
Is combat more balanced....just needs flattening out extremes ?

Varicite

Rune_Relic wrote: »

OK...so which we does every one want to go

Hi stamina regen > reduce burst damage to compensate
Hi burst damage > reduce stamina regen to compemsate

..because it looks to me that we have to have one or the other or a very tricky balance somewhere between.

I hated stamina regen in 1.5...it was non existant. Stamina builds were burst builds.
Now there a few players at the top of the food chain that can regen indefinitely.
I like the idea of better sustain...so if the price is burst damage reduction to balance that out then fair enough.

BUT is it simply a case that armour sets is throwing everything out of kilter ?

I think it's more complicated than that, as armour sets do play a part in the equation, but so do the removal of softcaps leading to far higher resource and regen pools, much higher weapon damage numbers, excellent sustain through the use of revamped Rally and the new Vigor (stam builds were ALL glass cannons previously, period), etc.

There's a lot of different factors, and the OP seems to want to nerf them all from what I can tell. At the same time. AND nerf Steel Tornado itself too, on top of it.

And I'm the bad guy for saying that is too much to do at once.

/shrug

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

In 1.5, I could use massive Critical Surge heals to help me survive an intense encounter. With 1.6+, I need to either become half-tank or half-healer in order to solo the toughest content. In either case, the more regen, the better. Blocking costs stamina, and healing costs magicka - it's that simple. You can never have too much regen! The fact that you mention having some OTHER GUY keep Bloodspawn "at bay" tells me everything. You obviously have no idea how insanely difficult this game can be for solo players tackling group PvE content, or you wouldn't be accusing me of "hyperbole" or whatever.

Yes, let's balance group PvE and PvP for solo players soloing group content.

I thought we were suggesting balance changes that wouldn't make the entire game population quit. I misunderstood!

Strange, it sounded a lot more like the OP wants to make sweeping changes to the skill w/out even stopping to consider how it might effect other avenues of gameplay.

The posters you are quoting have every right to be wary of such a thing, because doing what the OP suggests would be detrimental to other facets of gameplay in the worst case, and even in the BEST case is an extremely amateur and terrible way to implement changes.

Small steps, I say.

What facets of gameplay? Soloing veteran group dungeon bosses is an accepted facet of gameplay, rather than an obvious issue with game balance and difficulty?

End of conversation for me. You live in could cuckoo land.

eliisra

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

Than I'm clearly doing something wrong
My magicka DK has major sustain issues in 1.6. Was actually better in 1.5 back when Spell Symmetry gave me magicka back, instead of just taking health. When Battle Roar could be used more than once per boss fight. Maybe you need a pocket dude putting Siphon Spirit and Elemental Drain on all your targets? But fair enough I dont have sustain problems on my other classes.

Topic: It doesn't matter how much radius or dmg Steel Tornado has. Because you clearly cant be a zergmonkey spamming pbaoe if your skills costs stamina and scales of weapon power. It's impossible because you wear leather like Jax Teller and masculine weapons like Aragorn, PvP'ing for the right reason, honour and so on. The skill needs to cost magicka or be vampire related, girly so to speak, for it to count as a zergling scum tactic. This because of dresses, Edward/Twilight and double standards.

pppontus

eliisra wrote: »

Topic: It doesn't matter how much radius or dmg Steel Tornado has. Because you clearly cant be a zergmonkey spamming pbaoe if your skills costs stamina and scales of weapon power. It's impossible because you wear leather like Jax Teller and masculine weapons like Aragorn, PvP'ing for the right reason, honour and so on. The skill needs to cost magicka or be vampire related, girly so to speak, for it to count as a zergling scum tactic. This because of dresses, Edward/Twilight and double standards.

I read this.. and I think I know less now than I did before.

Lava_Croft

eliisra wrote: »

Than I'm clearly doing something wrong
My magicka DK has major sustain issues in 1.6.

Only Sorcerers really benefit from endless Magicka stacking. Everybody else also needs Health and Stamina.

It's funny to see the same discussion as we had with Impulse, only this time around the roles are reversed.

Xsorus

Why are people talking about Sustain with Steel Tornado builds? unless you're something like a Wood Elf nightblade with Siphoning (which is going to decrease your damage) you cannot spam it forever..

For one, you're stacking Weapon Damage with these builds..and none of these sets have a lot of Stamina Recovery on them.

Which means unless you're what I just listed..Your stamina recovery is not great...I can get around 900 or so right now while putting CP points into stamina recovery on my Nord DK right now..That's with Potion Up as well...

So i'm not going to sustain spamming Steel Tornado anytime soon.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes really.

Was PvE ruined in 1.5 when you needed to take your resource management more into consideration? No, so stop your hyperbole.

If anything, from my perspective, 1.6 has ruined PvE and PvP in terms of there being any challenge.

I remember months back passing the bloodspawn DPS check could be a challenge. Now I only need one heal-tank to keep him at bay and I can do all the DPS myself and finish him like 1 minute before he gets enraged!

And I never have to look at my mana bar for christssakes. I dunno how one runs out of magicka while DPSing but I havent found a way yet. It's ridiculous.

The infinite resource sustain is dumbing down a game with no cooldowns. You might like that and you're entitled to your opinion, but I hate it.

In 1.5, I could use massive Critical Surge heals to help me survive an intense encounter. With 1.6+, I need to either become half-tank or half-healer in order to solo the toughest content. In either case, the more regen, the better. Blocking costs stamina, and healing costs magicka - it's that simple. You can never have too much regen! The fact that you mention having some OTHER GUY keep Bloodspawn "at bay" tells me everything. You obviously have no idea how insanely difficult this game can be for solo players tackling group PvE content, or you wouldn't be accusing me of "hyperbole" or whatever.

Yes, let's balance group PvE and PvP for solo players soloing group content.

I thought we were suggesting balance changes that wouldn't make the entire game population quit. I misunderstood!

Strange, it sounded a lot more like the OP wants to make sweeping changes to the skill w/out even stopping to consider how it might effect other avenues of gameplay.

The posters you are quoting have every right to be wary of such a thing, because doing what the OP suggests would be detrimental to other facets of gameplay in the worst case, and even in the BEST case is an extremely amateur and terrible way to implement changes.

Small steps, I say.

What facets of gameplay? Soloing veteran group dungeon bosses is an accepted facet of gameplay, rather than an obvious issue with game balance and difficulty?

End of conversation for me. You live in could cuckoo land.

There's this whole other half of the game referred to by most as PvE.

You generally use AoE in a lot of areas of this wondrous "PvE" which you may not know a lot about if you think the ONLY place that you might ever use Steel Tornado is "soloing group dungeon bosses", as you put it.

And you're talking about heavy-handedly nerfing the best stamina AoE in the game because "you don't like it". You really don't seem to take anything into account except for what you personally want.

/shrug

themdogesbite

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Why are people talking about Sustain with Steel Tornado builds? unless you're something like a Wood Elf nightblade with Siphoning (which is going to decrease your damage) you cannot spam it forever..

For one, you're stacking Weapon Damage with these builds..and none of these sets have a lot of Stamina Recovery on them.

Which means unless you're what I just listed..Your stamina recovery is not great...I can get around 900 or so right now while putting CP points into stamina recovery on my Nord DK right now..That's with Potion Up as well...

So i'm not going to sustain spamming Steel Tornado anytime soon.

Repentance from group members, you can spam it endlessly aslong as stuff die.

Ifthir_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Also steel Tornado builds have the best grp heal (given enough people stack it) in the game with alliance war rank 24...

I think this is another problem altogether. Vigor is wayyyy too big of a heal.

Last night @Aoe_Barbecue beat my ass repeatedly with a build that basically ate my 12k lethal arrow, insta-popped rally + vigor + igneous to heal to full then dodge roll out of my next arrow > take flight > steel tornado and lol'd at my corpse. Brutal.

Ifthir_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Why are people talking about Sustain with Steel Tornado builds? unless you're something like a Wood Elf nightblade with Siphoning (which is going to decrease your damage) you cannot spam it forever..

1v1 <> GvG

Lava_Croft

It's amazing how much crying there was over Impulse and how much silence over Steel Tornado.

k2blader

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's amazing how much crying there was over Impulse and how much silence over Steel Tornado.

Yeah. I don't think I ever cried over Impulse and always wondered at the people back then bawling so hard, lol. I think the silence is because most have switched onto the ST bandwagon and maybe also lots of people just aren't playing anymore because: your sig.

Also, in b4 necro whinge.

Forestd16b14_ESO

I'm a just gonna leave my thoughts and back away ... All classes and weapon skills need re-worked.... That's all.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's amazing how much crying there was over Impulse and how much silence over Steel Tornado.

I think it's because Whirling blades has a short range to start 1m shorter then Impulse and and Steel Tornado is the morph with more range so to nerf the range of Steel Tornado to the 5m of Whirling blades you would have to up the damage as compensation.

Not that Steel Tornado doesn't need to be rained in but it's not always that easy

rfennell_ESO

It was plainly obvious that Steel Tornado was overbuffed when they gave it the ZOS treatment (roughly defined as being wrong all the time).

To concur with at least one other person in the thread, ZOS only can look at the last patch it seems. They do not have the ability to look at the big picture.

How this got us to steel tornado spam (which regardless of your malfunction in trying to defend it) was a slow progression and not a single patch mishap. They started buffing stamina, they buffed steel tornado, they continued buffing stamina, they made it so any stamina build that has a clue can realistically create a build that won't run out of stamina.

The issues with steel tornado are simple: execute that can be spammed that starts scaling in damage at 50% health with 12m range.

Sure, I love it.. I get a boatload of AP when running a group with it being spammed. I use it with clouding swarm, I'm not all that original and I admit it. It's too powerful and everyone knows it.

As for the concept of "avoid it noob" or whatever pedestrian insult is trying to be levied to counter the fact that steel tornado is the new and improved and better than ever impulse... you can't avoid it, it's range is far too large and it goes right through walls and terrain most of the time. If you think it's possible to avoid a pain train of mouth breathers all spamming steel tornado with heal and barrier support... heh, well it's not likely your opinion can be changed as those with extreme opinions that are totally wrong (ie big foot, aliens, the world is 6000 years old) are not those with opinions that CAN be changed.

Artheiron

Crybabies in this game are like no other. No. AND Impulse needs a buff again. devs please stop listening these fools. Last time you listened you made 1 class' iconic abilty (extended chain) compeletely useless., 1 weapon's aoe ability useless. And this only helped zergs.

pppontus

deleted

Kylarstern91

If you Nerf this Nerf it only for PvP. Tired of nerfs in games for PvP affecting pve. Stupid.