Steel Tornado (The new Impulse)

Artheiron

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Legedric

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

Sanct16

Steel Tornado does about the same damage outside execute range as impulse but has a 4 times bigger range plus and execute. Seems about balanced...

Soulac

Sanct16 wrote: »

Steel Tornado does about the same damage outside execute range as impulse but has a 4 times bigger range plus and execute. Seems about balanced...

Steel tornado is dodgeable, impulse is not! :P
If both would do the same, what's the point in those skills.
But yeah, the range is kinds op.

Legedric

Soulac wrote: »

If both would do the same, what's the point in those skills.

One is Stamina based, the other one Magicka based?

Soulac

Legedric wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

If both would do the same, what's the point in those skills.

One is Stamina based, the other one Magicka based?

Legit, but then you'd have better, other AoEs.

Sanct16

Soulac wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Steel Tornado does about the same damage outside execute range as impulse but has a 4 times bigger range plus and execute. Seems about balanced...

Steel tornado is dodgeable, impulse is not! :P
If both would do the same, what's the point in those skills.
But yeah, the range is kinds op.

What I ask for is both being equally strong. Reduce Steel Tornado range to 8 meters and reduce its damage a bit.

Etaniel

This thread is hilarious, on one side you have renowned PvPers making valid arguments, on the other you have clueless people telling them to L2P with basic advice like "move out of the aoe" xD

Sanct16

Etaniel wrote: »

This thread is hilarious, on one side you have renowned PvPers making valid arguments, on the other you have clueless people telling them to L2P with basic advice like "move out of the aoe" xD

well you dont even petrify against a zergball to even the odds... so what do you know? l2p scrub!

Leandor

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Sanct16

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

AbraXuSeXile

Steel tornado is ridiculously overpowered in the trains, A 12.5 metre range execute aoe that deals high damage. By the time you get close enough to use your abilities you've already took mega damage.

Leandor

Sanct16 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

Yes, there is an issue with steel tornado. I deliberately commented only on the damage output, because I feel that there is a slight misconception in that, which is that it does in fact take a very specific build to pull it off with 6k+ damage in non-execute range.

I do think that the better way to fix the issue is to increase impulse radius back to 10m to equalize the two (slightly smaller because of the additional effects from burning/shocked/frozen respectively health debuff) instead of nerfing ST, but that is my personal opinion and may not be shared by others.

Leandor

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Steel tornado is ridiculously overpowered in the trains, A 12.5 metre range execute aoe that deals high damage. By the time you get close enough to use your abilities you've already took mega damage.

The bomb group/blob/zerg poster child eating his own medicine. Me likey!

Varicite

Sanct16 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

Impulse was never a good AoE, why are we still comparing the worst AoE in the game to the best and acting like we should balance around the lowest common denominator?

Impulse was ONLY ever good because it bypassed blocking, but now that is no longer case, so its completely irrelevant to any real discussion concerning damaging AoEs.

It has ALWAYS been mostly a utility spell (easy access to Minor Mangle debuff or an AoE DoT w/ a 40% chance to proc Burning on top) that was simply appropriated for damage because it was more reliable than having literally every stamina AoE in the game do half damage to blocking players.

Now that it can be blocked like every other AoE, it's just kinda okay, which is why the Destro staff comes w/ multiple AoE abilities as Impulse on its own was never really meant to be spammed just looking at the nature of its morphs (a DoT that you don't want to overwrite and a health debuff that you only need to apply once every 30 seconds).

Steel Tornado is a good AoE w/ decent upfront damage and the best range. Certainly, it's always been the best AoE in the game, but simply wasn't used as much because pre-1.6 it was just suicide to try to bomb AoE groups as a stamina build and it could be blocked and have its damage neutered anyway.

Now those things are no longer the case. I don't see the issue. If not Steel Tornado, everyone would just be spamming the next-best AoE in the game while zerging, because that's the nature of zerging and something is going to be the best to use for that.

Tornado is just a symptom of a much larger framework of problems, which are: near-infinite resource pools, low TTKs, lowered susceptibility to magical damage through Nirnhoned, non-zerg playstyles extremely discouraged by AP mechanics, just to name a few.

rfennell_ESO

Ah I see the broken comparisons have been rolled out.

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Impulse is elemental damage, elemental damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Elemental damage is mitigated by CPs (25% max), and spell resist (CP's and nirn) and also increases with more armor (heavy armor and passively by CPs).

So you can increase all physical damage by 25% but you can't lower it past more armor (with it's limited ability to be increased).

While you can increase elemental damage, it's also a lot easier to mitigate elemental damage with 5 different ways of decreasing the damage it does.

Then you have the simple little fact that increasing weapon damage is far easier than increasing spell damage, and that's compounded by the other simple little fact that weapon crit is far easier to obtain than spell crit is.

Logic: not only is steel tornado a better form of damage with much greater range and acts as a execute to boot and that's with roughly double the range. I guess I could also calculate that increased range's massive increase in area affected, but why even bother?

It's also much more difficult to see steel tornado's animation than it is to see impulse's.

G0ku

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Sanct16

Varicite wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

Impulse was never a good AoE, why are we still comparing the worst AoE in the game to the best and acting like we should balance around the lowest common denominator?

Impulse was ONLY ever good because it bypassed blocking, but now that is no longer case, so its completely irrelevant to any real discussion concerning damaging AoEs.

It has ALWAYS been mostly a utility spell (easy access to Minor Mangle debuff or an AoE DoT w/ a 40% chance to proc Burning on top) that was simply appropriated for damage because it was more reliable than having literally every stamina AoE in the game do half damage to blocking players.

Now that it can be blocked like every other AoE, it's just kinda okay, which is why the Destro staff comes w/ multiple AoE abilities as Impulse on its own was never really meant to be spammed just looking at the nature of its morphs (a DoT that you don't want to overwrite and a health debuff that you only need to apply once every 30 seconds).

Steel Tornado is a good AoE w/ decent upfront damage and the best range. Certainly, it's always been the best AoE in the game, but simply wasn't used as much because pre-1.6 it was just suicide to try to bomb AoE groups as a stamina build and it could be blocked and have its damage neutered anyway.

Now those things are no longer the case. I don't see the issue. If not Steel Tornado, everyone would just be spamming the next-best AoE in the game while zerging, because that's the nature of zerging and something is going to be the best to use for that.

Tornado is just a symptom of a much larger framework of problems, which are: near-infinite resource pools, low TTKs, lowered susceptibility to magical damage through Nirnhoned, non-zerg playstyles extremely discouraged by AP mechanics, just to name a few.

So how about a 50 meter aoe that does 15k damage? I mean something is gonna be spammed anyway, why bother with balancing at all then...

A balanced game should give you multiple options that are close to equally good. At the moment steel tornado is by far the best instant aoe, so it should be brought in line with the others.

Poxheart

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's amazing how much crying there was over Impulse and how much silence over Steel Tornado.

I suspect the reason why there isn't as much of an outcry over Steel Tornado is because the PC game's population has dropped to very low levels.

Sanct16

Poxheart wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

It's amazing how much crying there was over Impulse and how much silence over Steel Tornado.

I suspect the reason why there isn't as much of an outcry over Steel Tornado is because the PC game's population has dropped to very low levels.

or most of the impulse crybabies are.stamina builds

AbraXuSeXile

Leandor wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Steel tornado is ridiculously overpowered in the trains, A 12.5 metre range execute aoe that deals high damage. By the time you get close enough to use your abilities you've already took mega damage.

The bomb group/blob/zerg poster child eating his own medicine. Me likey!

Uwot

Varicite

Sanct16 wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I would just like to put here that 6k+ steel tornado hits are crits. With 2.9k weapon damage and 22k stamina, my steel tornado does 3.2k non crit. Because of nightblade + CP, my crits do on average 5.2k. You see what kind of stacking you need to do to have them crit for 6k, let alone standard hit.

Well compare that to impulse and consider steel tornado hits a 4 times bigger area.

Impulse was never a good AoE, why are we still comparing the worst AoE in the game to the best and acting like we should balance around the lowest common denominator?

Impulse was ONLY ever good because it bypassed blocking, but now that is no longer case, so its completely irrelevant to any real discussion concerning damaging AoEs.

It has ALWAYS been mostly a utility spell (easy access to Minor Mangle debuff or an AoE DoT w/ a 40% chance to proc Burning on top) that was simply appropriated for damage because it was more reliable than having literally every stamina AoE in the game do half damage to blocking players.

Now that it can be blocked like every other AoE, it's just kinda okay, which is why the Destro staff comes w/ multiple AoE abilities as Impulse on its own was never really meant to be spammed just looking at the nature of its morphs (a DoT that you don't want to overwrite and a health debuff that you only need to apply once every 30 seconds).

Steel Tornado is a good AoE w/ decent upfront damage and the best range. Certainly, it's always been the best AoE in the game, but simply wasn't used as much because pre-1.6 it was just suicide to try to bomb AoE groups as a stamina build and it could be blocked and have its damage neutered anyway.

Now those things are no longer the case. I don't see the issue. If not Steel Tornado, everyone would just be spamming the next-best AoE in the game while zerging, because that's the nature of zerging and something is going to be the best to use for that.

Tornado is just a symptom of a much larger framework of problems, which are: near-infinite resource pools, low TTKs, lowered susceptibility to magical damage through Nirnhoned, non-zerg playstyles extremely discouraged by AP mechanics, just to name a few.

So how about a 50 meter aoe that does 15k damage? I mean something is gonna be spammed anyway, why bother with balancing at all then...

A balanced game should give you multiple options that are close to equally good. At the moment steel tornado is by far the best instant aoe, so it should be brought in line with the others.

You weren't here saying this for the past year that Steel Tornado has existed in the exact same form while Impulse bypassed block entirely, making it the ability of choice for AoE zergs.

Nobody was.

Why do you think that is, if not for changes that occured post-1.6 not to Steel Tornado itself, but to the meta that has brought Steel Tornado to the forefront of zerg gaming?

If the problem is Steel Tornado itself, why do you not have a single post pre-1.6 talking about "bringing it in line"?

That seems like a pretty long time to be perfectly fine w/ the "balance" of Steel Tornado having ALWAYS been the best instant AoE, and yet now here you are. Interesting.

But what do I know, I'm just the guy who wants to look at the big picture instead of tunnel-visioning on the symptoms the underlying disease is causing.

rfennell_ESO

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

rfennell_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

You weren't here saying this for the past year that Steel Tornado has existed in the exact same form while Impulse bypassed block entirely, making it the ability of choice for AoE zergs.

Nobody was.

Why do you think that is, if not for changes that occured post-1.6 not to Steel Tornado itself, but to the meta that has brought Steel Tornado to the forefront of zerg gaming?

If the problem is Steel Tornado itself, why do you not have a single post pre-1.6 talking about "bringing it in line"?

That seems like a pretty long time to be perfectly fine w/ the "balance" of Steel Tornado having ALWAYS been the best instant AoE, and yet now here you are. Interesting.

But what do I know, I'm just the guy who wants to look at the big picture instead of tunnel-visioning on the symptoms the underlying disease is causing.

Steel tornado hasn't been "in the exact same form" for a year.

It was changed in like 1.3 or 1.4 as they slowly made changes to stamina line skills.

It didn't become the problem it obviously is until 2.0 and it's gradual and eventual adoption for pvp.

The first time it reared it's head as a problem was post buff 1.3-1.4 where you could do 2nd boss (upper) in hellra with steel tornado groups as it's massive increased ranged was hitting all the mage splits at once. Basically trivializing that entire part of the fight...

Varicite

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

You weren't here saying this for the past year that Steel Tornado has existed in the exact same form while Impulse bypassed block entirely, making it the ability of choice for AoE zergs.

Nobody was.

Why do you think that is, if not for changes that occured post-1.6 not to Steel Tornado itself, but to the meta that has brought Steel Tornado to the forefront of zerg gaming?

If the problem is Steel Tornado itself, why do you not have a single post pre-1.6 talking about "bringing it in line"?

That seems like a pretty long time to be perfectly fine w/ the "balance" of Steel Tornado having ALWAYS been the best instant AoE, and yet now here you are. Interesting.

But what do I know, I'm just the guy who wants to look at the big picture instead of tunnel-visioning on the symptoms the underlying disease is causing.

Steel tornado hasn't been "in the exact same form" for a year.

It was changed in like 1.3 or 1.4 as they slowly made changes to stamina line skills.

It didn't become the problem it obviously is until 2.0 and it's gradual and eventual adoption for pvp.

The first time it reared it's head as a problem was post buff 1.3-1.4 where you could do 2nd boss (upper) in hellra with steel tornado groups as it's massive increased ranged was hitting all the mage splits at once. Basically trivializing that entire part of the fight...

Steel Tornado or Whirlwind aren't mentioned in ANY patch note from 1.1.3 (ESO launch) to 2.0. Not once.

So I'm not really sure what you're on about here.

Varicite

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Steel tornado is physical damage, physical damage can be increased by 25% via CPs. Physical damage is also only mitigated by more armor.

Use 2 sharpened maces and there won´t be any armor...

Yah and there is that as well, I think if you add it all up even making a comparison between the effectiveness of steel tornado and impulse is laughable. By laughable I totally mean if you are sitting there trying to say steel tornado is balanced you're quite frankly full of it.

Self interest is hard to get over. By "hard to get over" I totally mean that people are liars regarding stuff that benefits them.

Or Impulse just sucks. Because it does.

That's like saying normal, modern cars aren't balanced because somebody out there is still driving a Model T. All of our cars need to be tuned down to Model T speeds and handling capabilities.

Artheiron

Legedric wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

So you got owned by 3 different people and you are complaining about it? How about blocking? Dodge roll? Mist form? Stay away and range down acid spray + caltrops? Fix L2p issues first.

Dunno how long you are playing ESO but who are you again calling others cry babies?

Ever looked at a death recap?
Ever seen a whole zerg showing up on a death recap?

Don't judge from these poor screenshots as they don't ever tell actual numbers...

It is easy to come into a thread and say: It's a L2P issue to someone like Maulkin, who is one of the better PvP Sorcerers in EU, especially 1v1 and 1vX if you don't know him...

since betas-early access.

Who am I to judge?

I'm a player that able to counter spammers. I just dont sit there and eat their steel tornados. I don't see 5x steel tornados in my damage recap. Why you pro players elevate yourselves after killing 2, 3 newbies and then cry after failing at 1vX? Sorry 4 people killed you and your "pro" hurt. NA EP has a good guild that able to counter steel tornados with bat swarms and prox bombs. Ask them to teach you. They kick arse.

And your 1v1 1vX builds doesn't concern me. That's not even a thing until they release arenas or duels.
For now, this is a social, multiplayer game designed for grouping. So, once again, l2p.

Maulkin

I don't have much to add to this thread. Nothing much has changed, despite the realisation by all and sundry how OP Steel Tornado currently is for PvP group play.

I'm glad to see @Varicite in here though, still posting largely nonsensical arguments that have nothing to do with the crux of the discussion.

Stay awhile buddy, we have cookies

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this thread. Nothing much has changed, despite the realisation by all and sundry how OP Steel Tornado currently is for PvP group play.

I'm glad to see @Varicite in here though, still posting largely nonsensical arguments that have nothing to do with the crux of the discussion.

Stay awhile buddy, we have cookies

Not really sure what it so nonsensical about looking at what has actually changed in the game to cause the situation we have today instead of trying to play nerfbat whack-a-mole w/out really fixing the problem.

Or pointing out the logical fallacy that all AoE should be balanced around Impulse, which has always been a terrible ability at best and only enjoyed usage because it bypassed block.

But I do enjoy cookies, so thanks. : )

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't have much to add to this thread. Nothing much has changed, despite the realisation by all and sundry how OP Steel Tornado currently is for PvP group play.

I'm glad to see @Varicite in here though, still posting largely nonsensical arguments that have nothing to do with the crux of the discussion.

Stay awhile buddy, we have cookies

Not really sure what it so nonsensical about looking at what has actually changed in the game to cause the situation we have today instead of trying to play nerfbat whack-a-mole w/out really fixing the problem.

But I do enjoy cookies, so thanks. : )

What has actually happened is that you had a Ferrari of a skill but no roads for it run on because the Stamina builds that were needed to run this skill were actually non-viable at the time. Hence nobody complained about it.

Now with all these issues removed around stamina viability and all other strong AoE skills nerfed (Talons, Blazing Shield, Impulse, WoE etc) Steel Tornado is miles ahead of any other skill in strength and obviously unbalanced.

Yet somehow you see that as a non-issue under the pre-text that "it was always meant to be strong", ignoring the obvious examples of every single other hard hitting, overused, AoE skill that got nerfed (clear indication for me that devs don't want extremely strong AoE skills)

Variability<>Equality

All skills are not the same and there will always be a place in the game for an AoE execute like Steel Tornado. But for an AoE execute skill to have the largest radius and a very high base damage to boot, is completely out of whack. The bugs with armor penetration are just the cherry on top of the cake.

Self interests don't allow you to see that atm, but that's ok. We'll still be here when the inevitable nerf hammer falls. I just hope it won't be as bad as it was with WoE, where because of a bug it got nerfed to complete uselessness.