Steel Tornado (The new Impulse)

badmojo

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe you're even talking about lighting flood as a counter to steel tornado. It's hilarious to me at this point. It's like some people are playing different PvP to me.

Not even the maths make any sense. 700 damage per 0.5" over 6". So 8.5k over 6" per target IF they stand within the 6m radius for the full duration.

...or you spam 6x Steel Tornado in the same time and you do over 30k per target in 3 times the area.

Do you go around fearing sorcs spamming liquid flood? Really?

Here's the secret, don't stand in range of steel tornado. The range of caltrops and lightning flood are further than the radius of steel tornado. If you stand back far enough that they can't hit you, but you can hit them, they can't just heal through it forever, especially when you start lobbing siege at their little ball.

Stop. You're talking nonsense.

Lightning flood has half the radius of steel tornado.

If I stand off them I will use siege, not lightning flood. Ever.

You cannot always stand off them.

The same tired arguments were used about the impulse bats meta. Had enough of them over the last year and clearly so have the devs since they nerfed impulse and bats repeatedly

Radius & range are two different things. The range of Lightning Flood is 38 meters on my sorc, the radius of steel tornado is 12. Therefore the effective range of steel tornado is 12m.

Sorry bud, but 38 is a greater number than 12.

Maulkin

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe you're even talking about lighting flood as a counter to steel tornado. It's hilarious to me at this point. It's like some people are playing different PvP to me.

Not even the maths make any sense. 700 damage per 0.5" over 6". So 8.5k over 6" per target IF they stand within the 6m radius for the full duration.

...or you spam 6x Steel Tornado in the same time and you do over 30k per target in 3 times the area.

Do you go around fearing sorcs spamming liquid flood? Really?

Here's the secret, don't stand in range of steel tornado. The range of caltrops and lightning flood are further than the radius of steel tornado. If you stand back far enough that they can't hit you, but you can hit them, they can't just heal through it forever, especially when you start lobbing siege at their little ball.

Stop. You're talking nonsense.

Lightning flood has half the radius of steel tornado.

If I stand off them I will use siege, not lightning flood. Ever.

You cannot always stand off them.

The same tired arguments were used about the impulse bats meta. Had enough of them over the last year and clearly so have the devs since they nerfed impulse and bats repeatedly

Radius & range are two different things. The range of Lightning Flood is 38 meters on my sorc, the radius of steel tornado is 12. Therefore the effective range of steel tornado is 12m.

Sorry bud, but 38 is a greater number than 12.

You're a lost cause at this point

Varicite

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe you're even talking about lighting flood as a counter to steel tornado. It's hilarious to me at this point. It's like some people are playing different PvP to me.

Not even the maths make any sense. 700 damage per 0.5" over 6". So 8.5k over 6" per target IF they stand within the 6m radius for the full duration.

...or you spam 6x Steel Tornado in the same time and you do over 30k per target in 3 times the area.

Do you go around fearing sorcs spamming liquid flood? Really?

Here's the secret, don't stand in range of steel tornado. The range of caltrops and lightning flood are further than the radius of steel tornado. If you stand back far enough that they can't hit you, but you can hit them, they can't just heal through it forever, especially when you start lobbing siege at their little ball.

Stop. You're talking nonsense.

Lightning flood has half the radius of steel tornado.

If I stand off them I will use siege, not lightning flood. Ever.

You cannot always stand off them.

The same tired arguments were used about the impulse bats meta. Had enough of them over the last year and clearly so have the devs since they nerfed impulse and bats repeatedly

Radius & range are two different things. The range of Lightning Flood is 38 meters on my sorc, the radius of steel tornado is 12. Therefore the effective range of steel tornado is 12m.

Sorry bud, but 38 is a greater number than 12.

He understood that, but why use Lightning Flood when you can use Siege and do WAY more damage?

It sounds like the OP is just upset that he has to use Siege to break zergs now instead of just running into the middle of the AoE-spamming mob of players like he apparently used to.

badmojo

Why use lightning flood? Simply because it's a ranged AOE. You can't be effective firing single target skills at a group, therefore lightning flood becomes good by default for magicka users and stamina users use caltrops. Of course siege works best, but it isn't always possible to use siege, it depends on the situation.

My whole point has always been to fight an AOE spamming group by using ranged AOE. The OP got all uppity about how crappy the ranged AOEs are, so I tried to explain how they're useful despite the low damage they do.

I still can't see why so many people are disagreeing with me, they can't be bothered to explain themselves other than making stupid comments about steel tornado being better than lightning flood....like they don't understand what the ranged part of ranged AOE means.

CMG138

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

So Impulse was an AoE spammable skill that made stacking and zerging efficient and was quite rightly nerfed. It had its range decreased, its cost increased and ultimately its damage nerfed.

But now there's a new Impulse. One we can all get behind. One with 12m radius and double the damage of the previous Impulse. An Impulse by the people, for the people. An Impulse named Steel Tornado that every zerg currently runs

~6k AoE damage over 12m and even more when your health drops? Can we give this the Impulse treatment pls?

You should really work on your survivability, I've survived more Jesus Beams than that, before they were nerfed.

pppontus

Varicite wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe you're even talking about lighting flood as a counter to steel tornado. It's hilarious to me at this point. It's like some people are playing different PvP to me.

Not even the maths make any sense. 700 damage per 0.5" over 6". So 8.5k over 6" per target IF they stand within the 6m radius for the full duration.

...or you spam 6x Steel Tornado in the same time and you do over 30k per target in 3 times the area.

Do you go around fearing sorcs spamming liquid flood? Really?

Here's the secret, don't stand in range of steel tornado. The range of caltrops and lightning flood are further than the radius of steel tornado. If you stand back far enough that they can't hit you, but you can hit them, they can't just heal through it forever, especially when you start lobbing siege at their little ball.

Stop. You're talking nonsense.

Lightning flood has half the radius of steel tornado.

If I stand off them I will use siege, not lightning flood. Ever.

You cannot always stand off them.

The same tired arguments were used about the impulse bats meta. Had enough of them over the last year and clearly so have the devs since they nerfed impulse and bats repeatedly

Radius & range are two different things. The range of Lightning Flood is 38 meters on my sorc, the radius of steel tornado is 12. Therefore the effective range of steel tornado is 12m.

Sorry bud, but 38 is a greater number than 12.

It sounds like the OP is just upset that he has to use Siege to break zergs now instead of just running into the middle of the AoE-spamming mob of players like he apparently used to.

Spoken like a true zergling..

I mean you can't seriously think that it's balanced that the DW AOE has 4x the range and 2x the damage to destro, and ~the same cost. Considering that you can't really argue that it's not either way OP or Impulse is way ***.

badmojo wrote: »

Why use lightning flood? Simply because it's a ranged AOE. You can't be effective firing single target skills at a group, therefore lightning flood becomes good by default for magicka users and stamina users use caltrops. Of course siege works best, but it isn't always possible to use siege, it depends on the situation.

My whole point has always been to fight an AOE spamming group by using ranged AOE. The OP got all uppity about how crappy the ranged AOEs are, so I tried to explain how they're useful despite the low damage they do.

I still can't see why so many people are disagreeing with me, they can't be bothered to explain themselves other than making stupid comments about steel tornado being better than lightning flood....like they don't understand what the ranged part of ranged AOE means.

Dude, you've been destroyed already.

I don't know if you have ever been inside Cyrodiil, but if you had, you'd know that absolutely nothing works the way you think it works.

PS. 2 healers will outheal your entire group spamming lightning flood. And healers can not run out of magicka ever anymore because this game is EZMODE since 2.0. So have fun trying

rfennell_ESO

Haha even if you put a lightning flood on an entire zerg that stands in it for it's duration it's terrible.

Range on steel tornado is way too high. It also has no reasonable graphic to show you it's range. With lag it seems to have ranged casting range.

Worst part with stamina builds and stamina regen being ridiculously OP they can spam it all day long and be immune to all damage as they dodge roll around.

DDuke

You know, I saw this coming the moment they announced Vigor.

The reason people are spamming Steel Tornado (which remains the same skill it was before) with the zerg mentality, is that now you can get away with it. There are people running around with 3-4k stamina regen, spamming Vigor to keep and allies alive (who's bright idea was it to make stamina builds healers essentially?), while dodge rolling around spamming Steel Tornado and never running out of stamina.

If you tried that pre 1.6 you'd run into two problems:

1. Reliance on healers. Stamina builds did not have heals outside Momentum (2H), which rarely saw use in DW builds.
2. Running out of stamina. Without 3-4k regen, you'd run out of stamina relatively quick while spamming Steel Tornado (after which you'd be extremely vulnerable to CC).

So, as you can see, it's really more of a problem with the underlying factors, than the skill itself being too strong or broken.

I'd rather see ZOS fix the ridiculous amounts of regen you can stack up & abusing the percentage modifiers to compound that number.

I'd rather not have stamina builds have strong PBAoE heal (that just screams of "stack up in a big zergball and spam it"). If you must give stamina builds a heal, atleast have them affect you alone (not players around you, you have the healers with restoration staff and/or restorative magic for that).

Ifthir_ESO

Ishammael wrote: »

2. Steel Tornado gets a 15% dmg buff when your enemies are stunned or immobilized (read: talons). The key in group play is movement.
3. Steel Tornado gets 20% dmg bonus against low-health enemies.

Are these two buffs multiplicative with one another or additive?

Maulkin

I think @DDuke and @pppontus have hit the nail on the head.

The ridiculous regen and cost reduction people can achieve in 1.6 means they can spam anything forever. It has completely dumbed down the game for everyone and removed the element of resource management altogether. In a game with no cooldowns infinite resources just make it a ridiculous spamfest.

And that includes me and my sorc shields. I can shield through and disengage at will from 90% of combat situations because I don't even have to look at my mana bar.

Moving on, Vigor is now the best AoE Heal and Steel Tornado the best AoE damage dealer. Thus the Impulse and Healing Springs zergs are slowly converting to ST and Vigor (where they can). It was a great idea to give stamina users a heal but a terrible idea to make "stamina healers" by giving that heal the largest PBAoE in the game (10m-15m like wtf). Healing Springs is 8m in comparison and requires you to equip a resto staff. A stamina version of Green Dragon Blood would have been great and enough.

All that said, I still think Steel Tornado's range is too high. At Rank IV it's 12.5 meters... That's more than double the range and 3 times the radius of every other PBAoE and it's also the hardest hitting one. If the base skill has 5 meters range, giving the morph 8 meters would have already made it a great choice and the biggest PBAoE damage skill. At 12.5 meters it's just unavoidable in any close quarter situation.

Varicite

pppontus wrote: »

Spoken like a true zergling..

I mean you can't seriously think that it's balanced that the DW AOE has 4x the range and 2x the damage to destro, and ~the same cost. Considering that you can't really argue that it's not either way OP or Impulse is way ***.

lol, considering I've played since EA and joined a group MAYBE twice in Cyrodiil, I don't think you're very close to the mark. ; )

Typically, I only join in keep battles (usually defense) and other than that, I try to find small scale PvP when I can. As a result, I'm not a very high rank, but I do what's fun for me. /shrug

I actually haven't said anything at all about Steel Tornado's range or Impulse or any of that; not really sure where you're channeling that from.

I was mostly referring to the fact that the OP repeatedly talks about how he now has to change tactics when fighting these zergs (I mostly avoid them as they lag me out or bombard them from the keep walls, that's MY tactic).

As for the topic, I agree w/ Dduke (not surprising) that the problem isn't the skill itself which is actually slightly WEAKER than it was previously, but that there are a ton of other factors involved that are causing the Tornados to be endlessly spammable now.

Removed caps = much higher stam and regen, new sets like Ophidian providing the same effect that Destro staff passive has on kills, weapon damage has always been easier to stack than spell damage, GOOD stam-based heals in Rally and Vigor, reduced stamina costs from previous updates, etc.

My experience w/ Tornado when compared to Impulse prior to 1.6 was that Impulse, due to Destro staff passives, was FAR more sustainable even though the initial damage was lower. Tornado was always beefy, but as stamina had resource-sustain issues previously, you couldn't spam it even half the time as Impulse in protracted combat.

THAT is why there were Impulse trains pre-1.6 instead of Tornado trains, even though Tornado has always been the best AoE in the game. It simply wasn't as sustainable and wasting that much stamina was an extreme liability.

Now that's not really the case anymore.

King Bozo

Not sure why this post exists. Lets just not use any weapons or spells and fist fight in pvp.

Maulkin

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

Basically op was hit 3 times with it and that means that he didnt move from it in 3,5 seconds. In that period of time he just received one shot besides ww. What u were doing there for 3,5 seconds without block or dodging?

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

The difference between our opinions is that you think that regen is the only problem, while I think that is regen is the major problem BUT Steel Tornado steel needs a range nerf to bring it in line with the other PBAoEs. Or at least that's what I understood from your statement "the problem isn't the skill itself".

Because yes, a hard hitting PBAoE with 3 times the radius of every other and same cost, is a balance problem in itself.

Maulkin

tino.antoninieb17_ESO wrote: »

Basically op was hit 3 times with it and that means that he didnt move from it in 3,5 seconds. In that period of time he just received one shot besides ww. What u were doing there for 3,5 seconds without block or dodging?

Admiring the view. Read the thread before you post next time.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

The difference between our opinions is that you think that regen is the only problem, while I think that is regen is the major problem BUT Steel Tornado steel needs a range nerf to bring it in line with the other PBAoEs. Or at least that's what I understood from your statement "the problem isn't the skill itself".

Because yes, a hard hitting PBAoE with 3 times the radius of every other and same cost, is a balance problem in itself.

You can't look at the cost of a stamina skill and magicka skill in the same light, due to it STILL being a quadruple-dipped resource (damage, utility, rolling, blocking) as compared to magicka only being double-dipped (damage, utility).

However, this limitation is no longer prohibitive, which is why you ARE viewing their costs in the same light.

There was never an issue w/ Steel Tornado's range prior to caps being removed and all of these other factors entering the equation. You were never here complaining about Tornado's "balance problems" prior to 1.6.

Why is that, do you think?

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

The difference between our opinions is that you think that regen is the only problem, while I think that is regen is the major problem BUT Steel Tornado steel needs a range nerf to bring it in line with the other PBAoEs. Or at least that's what I understood from your statement "the problem isn't the skill itself".

Because yes, a hard hitting PBAoE with 3 times the radius of every other and same cost, is a balance problem in itself.

You can't look at the cost of a stamina skill and magicka skill in the same light, due to it STILL being a quadruple-dipped resource (damage, utility, rolling, blocking) as compared to magicka only being double-dipped (damage, utility).

However, this limitation is no longer prohibitive, which is why you ARE viewing their costs in the same light.

There was never an issue w/ Steel Tornado's range prior to caps being removed and all of these other factors entering the equation. You were never here complaining about Tornado's "balance problems" prior to 1.6.

Why is that, do you think?

Like I said, I believe there were 2 reasons of equal weighting. One of the two reasons was because certain AoEs (like Impulse were unblockable). Making all AoEs blockable meant that both the average damage per hit has decreased and block-casting is no longer possible.

I believe that was as much a factor in the AoE meta change as the high regen rates.

Varicite

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

The difference between our opinions is that you think that regen is the only problem, while I think that is regen is the major problem BUT Steel Tornado steel needs a range nerf to bring it in line with the other PBAoEs. Or at least that's what I understood from your statement "the problem isn't the skill itself".

Because yes, a hard hitting PBAoE with 3 times the radius of every other and same cost, is a balance problem in itself.

You can't look at the cost of a stamina skill and magicka skill in the same light, due to it STILL being a quadruple-dipped resource (damage, utility, rolling, blocking) as compared to magicka only being double-dipped (damage, utility).

However, this limitation is no longer prohibitive, which is why you ARE viewing their costs in the same light.

There was never an issue w/ Steel Tornado's range prior to caps being removed and all of these other factors entering the equation. You were never here complaining about Tornado's "balance problems" prior to 1.6.

Why is that, do you think?

Like I said, I believe there were 2 reasons of equal weighting. One of the two reasons was because certain AoEs (like Impulse were unblockable). Making all AoEs blockable meant that both the average damage per hit has decreased and block-casting is no longer possible.

I believe that was as much a factor in the AoE meta change as the high regen rates.

Well, Steel Tornado was ALWAYS blockable, as were all stamina-based AoEs (except maybe Caltrops?).

I tend to see making magicka AoEs behave in the same manner as balance.

But yes, making Whirlwind not completely suck when compared to Impulse definitely has made it appear more in Cyro.

pppontus

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

@Varicite the situation has greatly changed in 1.6

The sole reason sustain was better on Impulse is cause you could block-cast thus using stamina for defence and magicka for offense. Now people don't block-cast in AoE fights cause it drains your stamina instantly so the ground is even.

Secondly, the cost is largely the same. The Controlled Fury passive( 20% cost reduction) makes sure of that. On my naked, no racial passives, Breton NB, I get these costs:
Impulse: 2641
Steel Tornado: 2764

Steel Tornado is only 4% more expensive and it covers 3 times the area and hits harder than Impulse.

Also I know there's a Destro passive that gives you magicka back if you get the killing blow with a destro ability (Destruction Expert). Well PvPers are using the Vengeance of Leech set (aka the PvP Axes) that give all 3 resources back on killing blow. So there's a way to even that up too.

Ultimately the skill is now far far better than Impulse which is why Steel Tornado blobs are emerging while Impulse blobs are disappearing. It's just that some people are in denial of the facts and others are being hugely hypocritical about it. Because some were the same people screaming to high heavens when Impulse zergs did the same thing, but now they tell you to "simply, move away" from the double radius of ST

I'm not sure why you quoted me and then basically expanded on exactly what I just said. <.<

The difference between our opinions is that you think that regen is the only problem, while I think that is regen is the major problem BUT Steel Tornado steel needs a range nerf to bring it in line with the other PBAoEs. Or at least that's what I understood from your statement "the problem isn't the skill itself".

Because yes, a hard hitting PBAoE with 3 times the radius of every other and same cost, is a balance problem in itself.

You can't look at the cost of a stamina skill and magicka skill in the same light, due to it STILL being a quadruple-dipped resource (damage, utility, rolling, blocking) as compared to magicka only being double-dipped (damage, utility).

However, this limitation is no longer prohibitive, which is why you ARE viewing their costs in the same light.

There was never an issue w/ Steel Tornado's range prior to caps being removed and all of these other factors entering the equation. You were never here complaining about Tornado's "balance problems" prior to 1.6.

Why is that, do you think?

Like I said, I believe there were 2 reasons of equal weighting. One of the two reasons was because certain AoEs (like Impulse were unblockable). Making all AoEs blockable meant that both the average damage per hit has decreased and block-casting is no longer possible.

I believe that was as much a factor in the AoE meta change as the high regen rates.

Well, Steel Tornado was ALWAYS blockable, as were all stamina-based AoEs (except maybe Caltrops?).

I tend to see making magicka AoEs behave in the same manner as balance.

But yes, making Whirlwind not completely suck when compared to Impulse definitely has made it appear more in Cyro.

The point being that now you can't actually block anything other than some direct hits, if you have to, or you'll run out of stamina and die either way. Blocking now only delays your death by 0,5s whereas before it prevented it. Moving away from permablock is a good thing, but it creates these insane situations where you can achieve huge amounts of damage in a large AOE.

They did not make whirlwind not suck when compared to impulse, it made steel tornado 5 times better than impulse. (Both spammable infinitely, 4x the range and 2x the damage). If you honestly suggest that is "making it not suck" rather than "making it so much better", then I think we have just exhausted this conversation and can't get any further because your view of balance is far from mine..

Steel tornado should either be larger with less damage or smaller with higher damage, or.. equal by all means. Maybe even slightly better since magicka users have more AOE options, but not so much better that there is no point in doing anything but steel tornado.

Maulkin

Making Impulse blockable was definitely a good change of balance. Which is why I don't understand how you don't share the same opinion when it comes to range and damage.

Are the two major weapon AoEs in balance now? No, and that's why you start to see impulse blobs converting to steel tornado blobs.

The superior mitigation of medium armour, Vigor and the DW skill that gives you 20% damage reduction from AoEs (ideal for blob fights) are just the icing on the cake.

Varicite

The thing you don't seem to be acknowledging is that Whirlwind was ALWAYS better than Impulse by a huge margin. Nothing has really changed in that regard.

This wasn't actually an issue because it couldn't be maintained, and for other factors that we've already discussed. So now instead of looking at those other factors themselves, you want to nerf BOTH the other factors AND the skill itself.

I'm maintaining that if the latter was fine before, then there's no reason for it not to be fine after other factors are dealt w/.

I'm not a fan of heavy-handed gut reaction nerfs. Fix one thing, see how it behaves, and if it still needs tweaking, go from there.

Maulkin

I think we've exhausted the subject with Varicite, as he completely fails to see the importance of making all AoEs blockable and its effect on block casting.

Nerfing regen alone will still leave Steel Tornado about 5 times better than impulse. Blobs heal through anything (bar siege perhaps) and don't use stamina for blocking or dodging.

Thus all this talk of quadruple dip resource is out of place in this PvP play style.

Varicite

I see it as a factor, just not nearly as important as you are trying to make it out to be. Magicka AoE should have always been blockable, imo.

Block casting was lame and I don't miss it. You can still do it, just not as permanently as before, and that's fine.

You still dodge roll out of siege, which is the primary way to deal w/ zergs atm, btw.

You seem to be trying to nerf Tornado down to Impulse level, which I disagree w/, because Tornado has ALWAYS BEEN better than Impulse.

Since you seem so hell-bent on nerfing everything about it (radius, damage, all other factors contributing to its sustainability), no, I do not agree w/ you. And I'm certain that I have the right to continue saying that.

Me: Radius could be tweaked, regen mechanics need to be looked at, make small changes first and see how it effects the issue.

You: Nope nerf it all, all of it, who cares about how it will effect other aspects of the game, I like running into zergs on foot, so MAKE IT EXACTLY LIKE IMPULSE.

That's my problem w/ your tact in this matter.

/shrug

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Umm I can clear this up real quick as in The Mage under The Ritual I have all my Mage points in Piercing with 13% armor ignored with Physical attacks

As a passive one handed Hammer ignore 10% so two hammer 20% plus Piercing now on a Gold hammer (mines) that are Sharpened 7% armor penetration per hammer that's 14% armor on top of 33% armor ignored plus weapon damage I run Crusher Enchants so drops armor by another 1110 points.

Point is that this could be from a armor killing build to sum it up 33% of armor ignored 14% penetration 1110 armor points gone (5k more with Mark Target) and that's a short fight but the power and stamina need to spam it is not a reasonable build it's glass canning meet sustainability kind of good at both but sucks at one individually

Joy_Division

Impulse was never as good as whiners made it out to be. It's main redeeming feature before 1.6 was that it could not be blocked. This skill quite frankly now is not very good and should not be used as a benchmark. If zerglings are spamming some other skill it is not because that other skill is OP, it is because impulse is a poor performer.

I dislike it when people post screenshots because we do not know all the factors that went into those screenshots. Impulse has a HIGHER damage coefficient than steel tornado. Those are the game's intended mechanics. If the game is not following it's intended mechanics that's one thing, but just calling for nerfs with a screenshot as "proof" is not the best way to go. Steel tornado hits for barely 3k on my tool tip...why are you taking so much damage? Are you low health, rooted, and other conditions that triggers a duel wield/class damage buff that is making this skill hit hard?

Epsilon_Echo

The reason Steel Tornado, in the current state of the game, will never be more prevalent than impulse is because Steel Tornado doesn't contribute to tactical server lag.

Or was that supposed to be a secret? Ooops.

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

I see it as a factor, just not nearly as important as you are trying to make it out to be. Magicka AoE should have always been blockable, imo.

Block casting was lame and I don't miss it. You can still do it, just not as permanently as before, and that's fine.

You still dodge roll out of siege, which is the primary way to deal w/ zergs atm, btw.

You seem to be trying to nerf Tornado down to Impulse level, which I disagree w/, because Tornado has ALWAYS BEEN better than Impulse.

Since you seem so hell-bent on nerfing everything about it (radius, damage, all other factors contributing to its sustainability), no, I do not agree w/ you. And I'm certain that I have the right to continue saying that.

Me: Radius could be tweaked, regen mechanics need to be looked at, make small changes first and see how it effects the issue.

You: Nope nerf it all, all of it, who cares about how it will effect other aspects of the game, I like running into zergs on foot, so MAKE IT EXACTLY LIKE IMPULSE.

That's my problem w/ your tact in this matter.

/shrug

You seem to not be reading or intentionally misinterpreting my posts.

I said what Pontus said that it can have the range and have its damage lowered, or keep the damage and have the range lowered.

Your tact seems to be "don't touch an OP skill even if it ends up ruining PvP". I'm not cool with that

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Steel Tornado is used quite simply basic it's an 360 degree AoE that's not a a cone so yea stamina AoE that can be buffed beyond 1.5 numbers