Zenimax please reconsider Argonian racial passives.

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  • Bloodystab
    Bloodystab
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    Its very sad news for my NB Argonian - this Potion synergy was big deal in my build - now its gone...
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    For me, part of the problem is that the Argonian passives don't seem to have a real theme. They are a quasi-random selection of abilities that vaguely link to the lore. In ESO most of the Argonian NPCs I have met are healers, spiritualists and animists... and although there have been some assassin and their types they have not been the majority. Thus from an internal game logic viewpoint, Argonians should probably have passives that better link to the in game representation of the race. That would mean a bonus to healing output and maybe a damage reduction against magic.
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Having had a bit of a think I wonder if ZOS shouldn't make all passives, including racial passives, morphable / selectable.
    This would allow class passives to to be biased towards magicka or stamina(for example), or towards specific skills within a tree. It would allow weapon skills to have some more variation within them (i.e. more DoT damage vs more direct damage, etc); and it would allow racial passives to be selectable from a small pool for each race.

    For racial passives this would mean that there would be 2x passives per tier that could be selected from - but only one could be selected from a given tier (alternatively, any from the current tier and lower tiers). Included in all races would be 1x maximum stat type racial (only Imperial would have access to 2x maximum stat racial passives - and one would be health). This would allow for much greater diversity of build (although it may make balancing harder).

    Anyway, just some food for thought.
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    I have a v14 Argonian Nightblade, who is also my alchemist and a potion build (he was also a vampire wearing night silence with cloaked dagger, and that got nerfed as well - I'm afraid he's a nerf magnet.) That being said I think Argonians are pretty good and just need a little adjustment

    Argonians could use some consideration in the next pass of improvement, along with Redguards. The Redguard is a different thing altogether in that they've removed Redguard Poison/Disease resistance which has been in lore all along. Given the changes being made to Bosmer, I personally feel Bosmer are better than Redguard. I'll set that thought aside though as the topic is about Argonians. Argonians share a similar problem which is a confusion in theme when compared to the past and current passives. I think they are 100% correct in giving the Poison/Disease resistance to the Argonian, as that is a fundamental part of their theme. What gets lost in translation in ESO is the guerrilla warfare element that @PlagueMonk is describing. I agree with him on this. With the current magnitudes they are given, I personally feel 6% healing received and the meager little bonus to potion effectiveness should be one passive by itself. Robust/Sneaky/Damage Reduction could all be potential and thematic choices for that last passive. Just bear in mind that while the Argonian does get 6% healing received, an Altmer gets a huge boost to magicka which not only makes his healing better, but everything else. By so narrowly defining the Argonian he should get more return out of the ability. Potion use is even more situational and costly, therefore it also doesn't seem balanced given the time and effort it takes.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    You have to put in the equation even that you cannot use the potion random in 1.6
    This will not be too much of a problem for templars dk and sorc since they have others ways to regenerate healt(wich btw will not stack with the potions) but it will be particulary unbalanced for nightblades since they dont have a class self heal, a DK can get the 45% of his healt back with a single GDB ^^ this is not balanced imho.
    The best in 1.6 will be an argonian nightblade but since ZO$ have screwed up the passives of both ( class-race)
    now the argonian builds are worthless for the potion use and even nightblades....(still stronger than other races but overhall weaker).

    There's always Swallow/Funnel, Sap Essence, Mages Guild heal, Shadowy Trail & the new Alliance War Stamina based heal. I realize that's not perfect, but just wanted to show some options here.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • Fizzlewizzle
    Fizzlewizzle
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    With the Addition of the Justice system you have a few now things which can be used as a guideline for Argonian skills (and be lore friendly). Although its not very useful in combat, focusing on theft and other such things could be a way to let the Argonian shine in some way.

    If you look at the argonians, and skills that could be stripped... i would look at almost everything they have.
    Besides Swimming speed (a simple solution for waterbreathing) and Poison and Disease Resist the class has nothing but some left over junk they stacked on 1 race. Swimming and the resists would be compiled in one skill, leaving the rest for more lore friendly passives.

    Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.
  • eserras7b16_ESO
    eserras7b16_ESO
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    I don't know you guys but everytime I see other races passives i'm like... lol
    21% Stamina regen - That's just better than all our passives together (Specialy after 1.6)
    21% more Health 10% more stamina on Imperials
    12% magicka cost of spells reduction

    This is *** ridiculous compared to Desease and Poison resists (wich are useless atm) 3% health compared to 9-20% and then we get 6% more on all stats when we use a potion so we need to use a potion to get still less bonifications than other classes. If you got to use a potion to activate our awesomeness then make it worth it atleast.
    Eptackt - Argonian Templar
    Belegrand - Redguard Nightblade
  • ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ThatNeonZebraAgain
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    There's always Swallow/Funnel, Sap Essence, Mages Guild heal, Shadowy Trail & the new Alliance War Stamina based heal. I realize that's not perfect, but just wanted to show some options here.

    Aside from Sap Essence (which requires at least 4-5 enemies to make a decent heal, but then you're taking way more damage anyways), those are not instant like GDB or a potion, and the Alliance War stamina heal is just a dream for most people because of how high the Alliance Rank requirement is. Moreover, the heal from Swallow Soul/Funnel relies on doing good damage with it (ie a Magicka build) otherwise against tough opponents it heals for a piddly 25-50 a tick. Refreshing Path can be decent for simple PvE encounters, but between needing to be stationary in a fight and the low damage and heal values, it doesn't earn a slot in PvP. This all makes Entropy the most reliable, but it is still at a disadvantage because (1) it doesn't help against burst damage, (2) doesn't work against damage shields (same for Swallow Soul/Funnel), and (3) many PvP fights frequently don't last the whole duration. That's why NBs (and especially Argonian ones) have to rely on big potions in order to stay alive.

    Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on March 2, 2015 3:09PM
    Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
    Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
    Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
    Wayra High Elf Sorceress
    Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
    Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden
  • Vaelen
    Vaelen
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    I don't get why ZOS gave Argonians potion effectiveness passives when, in the lore it should be the Khajiit who specialize in Skooma production and other potions, they have a natural resistance to Skooma as well. Also it would be fun to see some crazy Skooma potions with the Justice system, the guards will be taking that illegal contraband off of you!
  • Vaelen
    Vaelen
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    And if they were to ever put Skooma traders in an any city it would have to be Rawl'kha.
  • ashlee17
    ashlee17
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    Let the bonus to healing apply to healing given as well as taken! At least give us something! Pretty please
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  • ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ThatNeonZebraAgain
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    ashlee17 wrote: »
    Let the bonus to healing apply to healing given as well as taken! At least give us something! Pretty please

    This would be very useful, but I'd also like them to revisit the "new" potion passive...
    Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
    Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
    Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
    Wayra High Elf Sorceress
    Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
    Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden
  • Fizzlewizzle
    Fizzlewizzle
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    Thiefing based Passives would be cool with the new Justice system.
    (More Bartering, more pickpocket chanc... more criminals)
    Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Maybe just get rid of all the Argonian passives, so I don't feel I ought to spend some points there...
  • Sylvyr
    Sylvyr
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    The potion passive change is huge... Not saying it should come back but that along with the other passives and compared to other races, Argonian passives need some love in some way or another. And if it could fit ES lore, even better.

    Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER

    PvP: Patch Vs. Player

    ZoSence (n.):
    1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
    2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"
  • Saltypretzels
    Saltypretzels
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    It shouldn't be considered too late to give Argonians bonuses to pickpocketing. I mean, that skill exists now. 5/10/15%.

    Throw in some good sprinting stamina reductions 10/15/20% for the quick get away and you have passive that people would get excited about!

    Also swimming is so useless, might as well make that a 100% boost.
  • ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ThatNeonZebraAgain
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    It shouldn't be considered too late to give Argonians bonuses to pickpocketing. I mean, that skill exists now. 5/10/15%.

    Throw in some good sprinting stamina reductions 10/15/20% for the quick get away and you have passive that people would get excited about!

    Also swimming is so useless, might as well make that a 100% boost.

    I highly disagree. Pickpocketing has zero bearing on PvP or any PvE fighting content, which is the vast majority of the game and where racial differences are most pronounced. Sprint cost reductions are similarly worthless (as the armor trait has always been) because enough stamina regen will offset sprinting costs while also helping keep your stamina up for all the other things you use it for. Frankly, both of those things would actually be worse than what we have now.

    I do agree with your 100% boost to swim speed though ;) And make Argonians not lose stealth while swimming!
    Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on March 5, 2015 7:11PM
    Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
    Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
    Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
    Wayra High Elf Sorceress
    Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
    Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden
  • Fizzlewizzle
    Fizzlewizzle
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    A bonus is a bonus... be it PvP worthy or not.
    The current bonus does nothing useful, be it PvP, PvE or for fun.
    At least with better Pickpocket chances you can make some money.
    Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.
  • ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ThatNeonZebraAgain
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    A bonus is a bonus... be it PvP worthy or not.
    The current bonus does nothing useful, be it PvP, PvE or for fun.
    At least with better Pickpocket chances you can make some money.

    I think the new passive could be useful if they upped the % and/or added another value, such as reducing potion cooldown. Since everyone is already on an equal playing field for pickpocketing, and Argonians' weaknesses come through in combat situations, I don't see the sense in a passive that doesn't help Argonians where they actually need help :?
    Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
    Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
    Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
    Wayra High Elf Sorceress
    Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
    Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden
  • Lyrander
    Lyrander
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    And that would help my Argonian Templar how, exactly ? Newsflash: Argonian characters aren't all Nightblades.

    im there with you fellow....

    and i choose an argonian not for the passives.
    but i do think they are really sh***y.
    they could at least TRY!
  • Fizzlewizzle
    Fizzlewizzle
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    Lyrander wrote: »

    im there with you fellow....

    and i choose an argonian not for the passives.
    but i do think they are really sh***y.
    they could at least TRY!

    Argonian Templar here. Passives aren't everything (though i love the swim speed).


    I think the new passive could be useful if they upped the % and/or added another value, such as reducing potion cooldown. Since everyone is already on an equal playing field for pickpocketing, and Argonians' weaknesses come through in combat situations, I don't see the sense in a passive that doesn't help Argonians where they actually need help :?
    You can already get Reduced Cooldown Jewelry, though i doubt anyone is using those.
    When it comes to pickpocketing... its not about being equal, its about getting an advantage. A Dunmer doesn't have lower fire for which he needs the bonus, nor has a Bosmer less Stamina Regeneration.
    I personally haven't had any problems when it comes to combat with my Argonian since 1.6, but it might be because i have always walked in heavy armor, while some people still count on light or medium to provide decent protection (like it could in 1.5).

    If its combat you want you are wrong on an Argonian anyway. Imperial, Altmer and Khajit are already at the top on those fields. Personally i would love it if we had something special ourselves.
    Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.
  • Lyrander
    Lyrander
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    Argonian Templar here. Passives aren't everything (though i love the swim speed).

    You can already get Reduced Cooldown Jewelry, though i doubt anyone is using those.
    When it comes to pickpocketing... its not about being equal, its about getting an advantage. A Dunmer doesn't have lower fire for which he needs the bonus, nor has a Bosmer less Stamina Regeneration.
    I personally haven't had any problems when it comes to combat with my Argonian since 1.6, but it might be because i have always walked in heavy armor, while some people still count on light or medium to provide decent protection (like it could in 1.5).

    If its combat you want you are wrong on an Argonian anyway. Imperial, Altmer and Khajit are already at the top on those fields. Personally i would love it if we had something special ourselves.



    i love the swim speed too :smile:

    and i do want something special too. no need to give us any bonus that other classes already excel in.
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    I've been posting about Argonian racials for a while and have considered many things. This doesn't make my thoughts any better or more valuable.

    Here are a couple of the most recent examples:
    Spoiler
    From a thread on re-balancing racial passives from early February:
    If you increase the max health value for Argonian Resistance by 2% for each rank and double the healing received value for Rapid Mending, those passives would be very viable in making Argonians more competitive. Not just for the stats, but as a particular approach to designing a character that is thoughtfully tied to a particular race. I like the health emphasis for Argonians and its lore connection to the hist.

    I think Bosmer and Argonians would benefit from making disease more meaningful and having a chance to "resist" disease effects altogether/reduce their duration as well as take less disease damage. The same could be done with poison.

    As for Resist Frost for Nords, I see it like the swimming speed bonus for Argonians under Amphibious. In both cases, you have a fun lore friendly ability, and it is tied to a more valuable/usable game mechanic in the same passive. Would be nice to add that kind of fun little bonus to all races.

    From a still active thread specifically on Argonian racial passives:
    Maybe something like this?

    Argonian Resistance

    I. Increases Maximum Health by 1% and Poison and Disease resistance by 8. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 25%
    II. Increases Maximum Health by 2% and Poison and Disease resistance by 15. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 50%
    III. Increases Maximum Health by 3% and Poison and Disease resistance by 23. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 75%

    What do those who (want to) play Argonians think? It's a simple change that would really make Argonians stand out, especially in PvP.

    I have also suggested making the passive for healing received work for healing given, which some have also put forward in this thread. I was thinking about all of the ideas I and others have come up with, and this is my current thinking (changes to current 1.65 version in bold):

    Restoration Expertise
    Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15% and increases the effectiveness of Restoration Staff passives by 2%.

    Amphibious
    Increases swimming speed by 25%/50%/75% and whenever you drink a potion gain 2%/4%/6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

    Argonian Resistance
    Increases Maximum Health by 3%/4%/5% and Poison and Disease resistance by 8/15/22 and gives 3%/7%/10% mitigation to Poison and Disease damage.

    Quick to Mend
    Increases healing received by 4%/6%/8%.

    I was going to go with "Increases healing given and received by 2%/4%/8%" but instead I went with the boon to expertise with a Restoration Staff and doubled the healing received bonus. This wouldn't just be for Argonians. Whatever weapon or armor type a race has an advantage with would get a bonus to that skill line's passives.

    Swim speed, which I and many others who play Argonians love, would get a boost to make it more fun and more useful in those situations where it can actually be helpful or a convenience. The maximum health bonus was increased by 1% for each rank.

    As for Poison and Disease resistance, having played only Argonians until last month, I had no idea how good this was for Cyrodiil after my Breton kept getting hit with meatbag catapults. The added damage mitigation should also be extended to the Bosmer who also have a Poison/Disease resist passive.

    Thanks for reading :)





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  • charley222
    charley222
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    i dont know a lot on Argonians but i know they are suppose to be immune to poison
    i never play Argonians but is true the passive fail a bit lol
    Increases swimming speed 100% usless in this game lol
    is sad eso dont know how to balance this game , i think is normal player dont want to use Argonians because the passive realy fail, that why the world dont have a lot of Argonians :(
    Edited by charley222 on March 5, 2015 11:39PM
    the wall of the covenant
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    @charley222 Most Argonians are created despite, not because of, the racial passive options. The exception used to be thirsty build nightblades.
  • Inactive Account
    Inactive Account
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    I have stated in other post that "Change is not a Nerf"....

    I guess I am going to have to Walk the walk now that I Talked the Talk...( kinda tasting crow right now... :s )

    Since many changes have come to Argonians, I am going to deal with what has been revamped in this patch in regards to my Argonian. I am sure things aren't as bad as they seem right now. ( Hell, they can't be)

    Good info and thoughts in this thread too, by-the-way.
  • PlagueMonk
    PlagueMonk
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    Jar_Ek wrote: »
    For me, part of the problem is that the Argonian passives don't seem to have a real theme. They are a quasi-random selection of abilities that vaguely link to the lore. In ESO most of the Argonian NPCs I have met are healers, spiritualists and animists... and although there have been some assassin and their types they have not been the majority. Thus from an internal game logic viewpoint, Argonians should probably have passives that better link to the in game representation of the race. That would mean a bonus to healing output and maybe a damage reduction against magic.

    While this may be representative of the NPCs you have met in ESO games, I know the Argonian race has always been set up in lore to be the thief/assassin type. The race for PCs is even directed that way. There are even an elite group called "Shadowscales". That alone should tell you something.

    That's the main reasoning behind my original passive changes in the OP and I continue to stand by them.

    Edited by PlagueMonk on March 8, 2015 3:31AM
  • Junkogen
    Junkogen
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    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    We all know that Argonians got the short end of the stick on racials and then made even worse in 1.6 with the removal/replacement of potion efficiency. I would really like to hear from Zenimax that they at LEAST agree and are actively looking into it.

    While we are at it though lets take a look at what exactly Argonians get shall we?

    (I am also purposefully removing the training line because, quite frankly, they are pretty useless on every character and why Argonians are better with Resto staves bewilders me)

    - Increase swim speed by 50%. This is mostly fluff and while it is fun to swim faster, it's virtually useless 95% of the time and 100% useless in Cyrodiil because slaughter fish are in every place deep enough to swim in....thanks Zenimax? Just so you know I do not want to get rid of it but just want it be known this holds very little weight in comparison to other racials.

    ...Gain 6% of max health, stamina and magicka on potion use- THIS is where Argonians got extra screwed. On live it currently makes ALL potions 15% better. Now that is a decent passive because any potion effect gets better. From longer durations to more of whatever the listed value was. So this "change" hurts quite a bit.

    On top of that, with the potion cooldown going to 45 secs (up from 30 secs), this is now a nerf to that new skill. +6% to all stats on quaff is not an equal replacement. So they basically nerfed the nerf! Again thanks Zenimax?

    - Poison/Disease Resist: 1440. In practice I have never seen these resists do much. Not to mention very few mobs do disease damage (Im sure someone is now going to post what mobs do disease damage :blush: ) and only a few do poison (only Scorpions come to mind). This would be more useful if more mobs actually did these types of damage unlike say Fire that is the single most common type of elemental damage.

    ...Max Health 3%. This is so low as to be minimally useful.

    Adimttedly, most races have a similar resist/stat combo. The sad thing though is, this is the second best thing Argonians have while for others it's the worst thing.


    - Increase Healing received: 6% While this passive isn't terrible, compared with other races who get 6% to say crit, it is horrible. 6% more healing /= +6% crit in any way shape or form. An abilities usefulness needs to be weighed and not simply 6% of X must = 6% of X. It does NOT.


    I have revised and posted this before and will do so here hoping someone at Zenimax actually reads/responds to it:

    Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%

    Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

    Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) –
    Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

    In thinking about it, I would also like to propose each race have a particular down side, something other races don't suffer from. For Argonians I wound suggest:

    Susceptibility to cold - Argonians take 10% more damage from cold attacks.

    I agree completely. I have been advocating for this for a long time. I've submitted so many in-game complaints, suggestions, and comments trying get some type of equality for Argonians but to no avail.

    I just wish I could see what the devs see. They must have a reason for giving us the shaft. There has to be a good reason our racial ability suck so much guar guano. It'd be nice to get some type of explanation.
  • Fizzlewizzle
    Fizzlewizzle
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    They really need to look at this.
    I think that from all the fixes this is one of the easiest ones they can do, just for the sake of balance.

    Another suggestion for passives:
    Restoration expertise (as it is now).

    Quick to mend:
    Boost the HP you get when healed dramatically or change it for the Robust passive (in combat 30% health regen bonus).
    It would fit them when you look at the previous elder scroll games

    Argonian Resistance:
    Keep it as it is, or slightly increase the HP bonus.

    Amphibious
    - Increase swimming speed by 50/75/100%
    - Decrease Potion cooldown by 5/10/15 seconds (or percentages).

    Shouldn't be that different from what they are now, yet a lot more useful.
    Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.
  • ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ThatNeonZebraAgain
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    They really need to look at this.
    I think that from all the fixes this is one of the easiest ones they can do, just for the sake of balance.

    Another suggestion for passives:
    Restoration expertise (as it is now).

    Quick to mend:
    Boost the HP you get when healed dramatically or change it for the Robust passive (in combat 30% health regen bonus).
    It would fit them when you look at the previous elder scroll games

    Argonian Resistance:
    Keep it as it is, or slightly increase the HP bonus.

    Amphibious
    - Increase swimming speed by 50/75/100%
    - Decrease Potion cooldown by 5/10/15 seconds (or percentages).

    Shouldn't be that different from what they are now, yet a lot more useful.

    Agreed.
    Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
    Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
    Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
    Wayra High Elf Sorceress
    Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
    Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden
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