PlagueMonk wrote: »- Poison/Disease Resist: 1440. In practice I have never seen these resists do much. Not to mention very few mobs do disease damage (Im sure someone is now going to post what mobs do disease damage ) and only a few do poison (only Scorpions come to mind). This would be more useful if more mobs actually did these types of damage unlike say Fire that is the single most common type of elemental damage.
starkerealm wrote: »
Spiders and, I think, wasps.
Of course bow powers do poison, and werewolf players do disease, but if you have a werewolf landing on your face, this isn't going to be enough to save you.
Goblins do poison or disease, but I'm not sure which.
Honestly, given the rarity, I'd think this one could afford to be a lot higher. I know it's so low because it's split across two resist types, but... those are really pointless resists.
It is interesting that the one passive that makes sense but is really not useful in the current system, increased swim speed wasn't mentioned. I guess they are tweaking potion use due to the champion passive? It is really the only reason I could see to change things to make potions less powerful. Honestly though I rarely use potions except in hard boss fights and sometimes in group dungeons if someone decided to aggro the whole place causing me to need a burst in magic.
Everyone knows that poison damage is extremely rare in Cyrodiil. Bow users don't exist. Lethal Arrow is a myth.
It is interesting that the one passive that makes sense but is really not useful in the current system, increased swim speed wasn't mentioned. I guess they are tweaking potion use due to the champion passive? It is really the only reason I could see to change things to make potions less powerful. Honestly though I rarely use potions except in hard boss fights and sometimes in group dungeons if someone decided to aggro the whole place causing me to need a burst in magic.
ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »However, I disagree with some of your proposed changes to the passives. Lore-wise, Argonians are renowned front-line and shadow warriors, as well as healers. There are also already two races that have stealth-related passives, however there are no races that have passives that benefits healers. Therefore, I think it would be better if they increased the value to 10% and made it affect healing received AND healing dealt. That way, we would have increased self-healing on the front and back ends of our abilities, while also contributing to healer and front-line roles (and also resonate with resto staff proficiency passive). I also like the idea of keeping a passive related to potions as it entails an interesting tradeoff like I mentioned above, and fits with the original vision ZOS had and lore about Argonian-plant symbiosis. Since the value of the potion passive in 1.6 it indeed pitiful, I'd like to see it upped to a max of 10-15%, but add another part that reduced potion cooldown by ~6 seconds. This way, we can use all potion types quicker (especially if stacked with potion speed glyphs) and gain more use out of each potion. Because of how potion effects last longer and refresh the same Major/Minor buffs granted by abilities, this wouldn't result in any kind of strengthening of buffs to say, crit or weapong/damage power, but would allow for more survivability through the more frequent use of the instant replenishes offered by stat potions -- something that 2 of the 4 classes need.
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »My Arognian Nightblade basically got removed from the game...since the whole idea around it was Potions...and they pretty much removed it.
3 Nerfs (guttings) in 1 patch
Potion Cooldowns upped 15 seconds
Removal of Potion Effectiveness from the Argonian
and the removed of it from Nightblade...replaced with bloody 8 ultimate I think it was everytime i used a potion...I lose 30% potion effectiveness for that..
xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »My Arognian Nightblade basically got removed from the game...since the whole idea around it was Potions...and they pretty much removed it.
3 Nerfs (guttings) in 1 patch
Potion Cooldowns upped 15 seconds
Removal of Potion Effectiveness from the Argonian
and the removed of it from Nightblade...replaced with bloody 8 ultimate I think it was everytime i used a potion...I lose 30% potion effectiveness for that..
I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.PlagueMonk wrote: »I have revised and posted this before and will do so here hoping someone at Zenimax actually reads/responds to it:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%
Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%
In thinking about it, I would also like to propose each race have a particular down side, something other races don't suffer from. For Argonians I wound suggest:
Susceptibility to cold - Argonians take 10% more damage from cold attacks.
Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:PlagueMonk wrote: »Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%
Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.PlagueMonk wrote: »Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)
Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?PlagueMonk wrote: »Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%
For people who aren't min-maxers it doesn't make much of a difference (as i also said, the main things why i liked an Argonian have not changed). For Min-maxers it does make a difference.Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »While i do belive ( since i have an Argonian nightblade) that the Argonian race need a little bit of love i dont think that racial passives are sooooo much a thing, today i was unable to find a group to go into cript of hearts normal (since i'm DC it is a lv 30 dungeon ) and i've decided to try in solo.....and i've conquered it , without use of potions ( it was my dream build too for this char)... i forgot to craft some so....
Yesterday i was worried on how i will tranform this alt post 1.6 with today i just dont care, it will be a good race-class choice; not a min-max choice but i've understand that racial passives dont make the difference, players does.
Let the storm begin!
Fizzlewizzle wrote: »For people who aren't min-maxers it doesn't make much of a difference (as i also said, the main things why i liked an Argonian have not changed). For Min-maxers it does make a difference.
People who originally build around the potion passives (especially Argonian NB) really get put down. Even as someone who isn't that bothered by it i do think that ignoring it would be a bad thing.
At least this "unfairness" gives us a reason to address the Argonians... Playing one shouldn't be a negative thing.
(wish i was a NB like you... instead of a Templar)
Fizzlewizzle wrote: »Although Argonians got the Short end of the stick, i myself am not planning on changing my race (or class) because of this.
The initial reason i chose argonians is still intact, and the secondary reason is for me a giant plus side for being an argonian:
1) Swimming speed.
2) Healing Received.
Although the first one might be stupid, as someone who sees water as safety (and hates to walk around), its a huge plus.
I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.
I get why people want to bend towards Guerilla Style bonuses, but i have to say... we already got 2 classes that are focused on Sneak already (one more then the other).
Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed (50/75/100%) and Reduce damage taken while swimming (25/50/75%).
It would turn water in an escape route for the Argonians.
Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.
Increasing it past the 21% you suggested (at tier 3) would be a decent option (to replace the Quick to Mend perk we currently have). Going to the level of the Bosmer's Stamina regen (although this one should be in and out of combat), or passing that could possible.
Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?
Looking at their immunity to disease and poison, as well as their claws, jaws and where they come from... i wouldn't be so surprised if they could use those tools for dealing extra damage.
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – While using melee attacks (Stamina based or Light/ Heavy attacks), deal an extra (2/4/6%) of your damage as Bleed, Poison and Disease damage to the target.
(The percentage isn't for the total added damage, but for the Bleed, Poison and Disease Individually. The total would be 6/12/18% if the target has no resistance or immunity for any of those effects).
I agree that stealth type tree does fit with the Argonians (Lore wise), Its just that 95% of what makes an Argonian an Argonian was not in the game when it was launched (Under water Areas, Pickpocket and Thieving).PlagueMonk wrote: »To respond to your ideas....The reason why I chose Guerrilla Warfare Expertise is its lore correct (please refer to the lengthy excerpts I included in my second post above) And while it might be three races with stealth, all three in the lore are experts in stealth/thievery and assassination. So why Bosmer and Cats got their lore correctness and Argonians did not is a **** thing to do imho. They deserve to be lore correct just as much as the other 2 races, even if it is a but "bland".SpoilerFizzlewizzle wrote: »Although Argonians got the Short end of the stick, i myself am not planning on changing my race (or class) because of this.
The initial reason i chose argonians is still intact, and the secondary reason is for me a giant plus side for being an argonian:
1) Swimming speed.
2) Healing Received.
Although the first one might be stupid, as someone who sees water as safety (and hates to walk around), its a huge plus.
I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.
I get why people want to bend towards Guerilla Style bonuses, but i have to say... we already got 2 classes that are focused on Sneak already (one more then the other).
And with the loss of our potion synergy, +6% to healing is pretty marginal.
It is indeed true that enemies will stop chasing you when you get too deep in the water, it was more of a counter measure against Slaughterfish and Archers. Being 3 times faster and 3 times more resistant against Slaughterfish would mean that you can get 9 times as far in Slaughterfish infested waters compared to any other Race. Might not be perfect, but i think the distance you can cover in that amount of time (Slaughterfish invested waters or not) will put any enemy (player or otherwise) far behind you, even if, in the end, you were to come back to the shore to continue on foot.PlagueMonk wrote: »Doesn't matter to me where is goes or what it's called, the race deserves health regen to simulate the histbark regen skill the race has had in lore. I admit I would really like to give Argonians a once per 30min self heal but that would probably cause an uproar so I went with a similar ability from other races.SpoilerFizzlewizzle wrote: »Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed (50/75/100%) and Reduce damage taken while swimming (25/50/75%).
It would turn water in an escape route for the Argonians.
As to your suggestion about reduced damage while in the water......well the problem is water is already an escape route. Once you get into swimming depth mobs stop following (even crocs!). I use this all the time if I don't want to fight something. And out in PvP you cannot swim w/o encountering slaughter fish, making it a useless skill. So this ability would be even more useless than our new potion ability.
I get what you were aiming for, but like you thought "Zenimax gave us 3%, lets increase it" i thought "Zenimax only gave us 3%, lets swap it". The added HP might be useful for some builds (Tanks), but in the end i really didn't get the picture of a guerilla tank. For an Argonian as a Tank i would see them more fitting for health regen then total health. Its to bad that Restoring Aura got a nerf (80% >20%), or else they would have been pretty good sustain tanks.PlagueMonk wrote: »SpoilerFizzlewizzle wrote: »Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.
Increasing it past the 21% you suggested (at tier 3) would be a decent option (to replace the Quick to Mend perk we currently have). Going to the level of the Bosmer's Stamina regen (although this one should be in and out of combat), or passing that could possible.
Again I don't care where health regen is but it is lore appropriate.
I would have possibly went with max stamina but didn't want to step on the Redguards toes so I went with health (plus even Zenimax gave use 3% so I went further to match some other races max stat gains. And extra health helps EVERYONE, especially with the removal of the softcap. Someone might see +9% health and determine that alone would help make a great temp or DK tank.
To clear out misunderstanding about this immediately... I did not mean only basic attacks.PlagueMonk wrote: »It's not overkill if that's the way the race has been envisioned in the Elder Scrolls universe since the beginning.SpoilerFizzlewizzle wrote: »Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?
Looking at their immunity to disease and poison, as well as their claws, jaws and where they come from... i wouldn't be so surprised if they could use those tools for dealing extra damage.
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – While using melee attacks (Stamina based or Light/ Heavy attacks), deal an extra (2/4/6%) of your damage as Bleed, Poison and Disease damage to the target.
(The percentage isn't for the total added damage, but for the Bleed, Poison and Disease Individually. The total would be 6/12/18% if the target has no resistance or immunity for any of those effects).
I also do not like dealing extra damage with basic attacks because I don't like it tied to damage that is not a class or weapon ability. NO ONE relies on light and heavy attacks for the majority of their damage. I am done with marginal/useless passives and desire good ones for a change.
Also just because they are resistant to disease/poison doesn't make them a bacterial breeding ground like the Komodo Dragon. They have sharp teeth which is really only useful if you are unarmed. That should never happen in ESO so this is more lore fluff similar to the Khajiit claws.
I personally find number 1 a waste of Skill Points, and i don't see number 2 happen so fast.PlagueMonk wrote: »There are other lore appropriate abilities I wouldn't mind adding like:
- Scaly hide. I thought about giving Argonians a flat armor amount to go with 3% health but wasn't sure what would be good (or too good)
- Underwater Breathing. Something that if underwater areas did ever get put in we should by all rights get. I have always wondered if the reason why we got gimped so bad was because underwater area are planned and they would then just give us this ability.
- Stealthy. Decreased detect radius and decreased stamina use while stealthed. (I chose increased move speed because no other race has that)
The potion change really only screws over builds that stacked the potion buffs for NB and Arg together. Being able to drink any potion, even a crappy one and get 6% of your resources back isn't bad at all. The boost they had before wouldn't have given them much different drinking a tri-pot (unless stacked with NB bonuses). Worse case here is that this new passive could use a slight buff, but all together it's not as bad a change as some are making it out to be.
ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »
Again, while the +6% to all stats on a potion seems nice at first glance, with 30k points in a stat it really only equates to 2-3 ticks of regen, or about half the cost of most abilities, or less than the damage from a light attack. That is not really useful at all, especially since it can only be used every 45 seconds at most, and also only if you aren't already at full/almost full stats. Moreover, this (and NB Catalyst) is also the only passive in the game tied directly to your bank account, but the benefit just isn't worth it.
It would be interesting to crunch the numbers and compare the current 15% potion effectiveness on a tri-pot and the change to 6% of stat. I agree the idea for the new passive isn't terrible, but the current value is. If they don't up the value, then they should make NB's Catalyst passive (the other potion effectiveness passive) the same so they stack once again. That would solve a lot (if not all) the problems people have.
ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »If they don't up the value, then they should make NB's Catalyst passive (the other potion effectiveness passive) the same so they stack once again. That would solve a lot (if not all) the problems people have.
Fizzlewizzle wrote: »As someone who actually used the Potion booster jewelry glympses i could easily get around 900-1000 Magicka, Stamina and Health from a single potion (crafted my own tri-pots). Add to that the 15% as an argonian (and the 30% of an Nightblade, which i'm not) and you would get pots ranging from 1035-1305 up till 1150-1450.
With 1.6 you no longer have the potion boosting Glympses, which makes your potions drop back to (the current) 450-700 value, with an extra 6% in all stats.
Well... I personally just got screwed for around 750 in effectiveness Which is 1 complete potion.
No way that 6% of your max stats will be able to fix that (Atm i would need around 45% return on a potion in each stat to get the same bonus i had before... and i aint even a nightblade)
From a more realistic point of view. 6% is nothing if the old effect was 15% (which also affected secondary and third bonuses).
- 1 stat potion users got 9% less effective potions, and 12% which they don't need (else they would have use a 3 stat potion).
- 2 stat potion users got 18% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).
- 3 stat potion users got 27% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).
If they wanted to make a more fair trade-off they could have given the argonians 15% in all stats when using a potion (instead of the 6%), and maybe for NB a time increase on potions (20-30%). Time is currently a valid thing for options, with the secondary effects and all. Getting 30-45% of your stats back when using a potion would be overkill.