Zenimax please reconsider Argonian racial passives.

PlagueMonk

We all know that Argonians got the short end of the stick on racials and then made even worse in 1.6 with the removal/replacement of potion efficiency. I would really like to hear from Zenimax that they at LEAST agree and are actively looking into it.

While we are at it though lets take a look at what exactly Argonians get shall we?

(I am also purposefully removing the training line because, quite frankly, they are pretty useless on every character and why Argonians are better with Resto staves bewilders me)

- Increase swim speed by 50%. This is mostly fluff and while it is fun to swim faster, it's virtually useless 95% of the time and 100% useless in Cyrodiil because slaughter fish are in every place deep enough to swim in....thanks Zenimax? Just so you know I do not want to get rid of it but just want it be known this holds very little weight in comparison to other racials.

...Gain 6% of max health, stamina and magicka on potion use- THIS is where Argonians got extra screwed. On live it currently makes ALL potions 15% better. Now that is a decent passive because any potion effect gets better. From longer durations to more of whatever the listed value was. So this "change" hurts quite a bit.

On top of that, with the potion cooldown going to 45 secs (up from 30 secs), this is now a nerf to that new skill. +6% to all stats on quaff is not an equal replacement. So they basically nerfed the nerf! Again thanks Zenimax?

- Poison/Disease Resist: 1440. In practice I have never seen these resists do much. Not to mention very few mobs do disease damage (Im sure someone is now going to post what mobs do disease damage ) and only a few do poison (only Scorpions come to mind). This would be more useful if more mobs actually did these types of damage unlike say Fire that is the single most common type of elemental damage.

...Max Health 3%. This is so low as to be minimally useful.

Adimttedly, most races have a similar resist/stat combo. The sad thing though is, this is the second best thing Argonians have while for others it's the worst thing.


- Increase Healing received: 6% While this passive isn't terrible, compared with other races who get 6% to say crit, it is horrible. 6% more healing /= +6% crit in any way shape or form. An abilities usefulness needs to be weighed and not simply 6% of X must = 6% of X. It does NOT.


I have revised and posted this before and will do so here hoping someone at Zenimax actually reads/responds to it:

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

In thinking about it, I would also like to propose each race have a particular down side, something other races don't suffer from. For Argonians I wound suggest:

Susceptibility to cold - Argonians take 10% more damage from cold attacks.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Completely agree that Argonians got the short end of the stick in terms of racials, especially with 1.6 and the removal of the softcaps.

For the naysayers, I'd also like to point out a couple more aspects of the issues you identified:

First, while the +6% to all stats on a potion seems nice at first glance, with 30k points in a stat it really only equates to 2-3 ticks of regen or about half the cost of most abilities or less than the damage from a light attack. So yea, that is hardly useful. And though potion/buff effects now last a pretty long time, the now longer time between being able to actually consume (and therefore gain the benefits of the passive) potions is what hurts Argonians, and classes that don't have instant self-heals (e.g. NBs, who also lost their potion effectiveness passive, and Sorcs). This is also the only passive in the game tied directly to your bank account. With 1.5, this provides a dynamic tradeoff between a useful passive and a gold sink. But in 1.6, if you don't have potions or use them often, this passive is even more useless.

Second, Argonian's poison/disease resist has the lowest value (1440) compared to Nord cold resist (1984) and Dark Elf fire resist (2016). What is the reason for this descrepancy? Fire damage is easily the most common of the three in both PvP and PvE, yet it has the highest value. Cold resist is probably the least common. Poison/Disease resist is particularly useful for those who become Werewolves, and also provides protection from the two most popular bow attacks in PvP as well as some set procs and WW attacks. It's got utility, so why is it undervalued?

However, I disagree with some of your proposed changes to the passives. Lore-wise, Argonians are renowned front-line and shadow warriors, as well as healers. There are also already two races that have stealth-related passives, however there are no races that have passives that benefits healers. Therefore, I think it would be better if they increased the value to 10% and made it affect healing received AND healing dealt. That way, we would have increased self-healing on the front and back ends of our abilities, while also contributing to healer and front-line roles (and also resonate with resto staff proficiency passive). I also like the idea of keeping a passive related to potions as it entails an interesting tradeoff like I mentioned above, and fits with the original vision ZOS had and lore about Argonian-plant symbiosis. Since the value of the potion passive in 1.6 it indeed pitiful, I'd like to see it upped to a max of 10-15%, but add another part that reduced potion cooldown by ~6 seconds. This way, we can use all potion types quicker (especially if stacked with potion speed glyphs) and gain more use out of each potion. Because of how potion effects last longer and refresh the same Major/Minor buffs granted by abilities, this wouldn't result in any kind of strengthening of buffs to say, crit or weapong/damage power, but would allow for more survivability through the more frequent use of the instant replenishes offered by stat potions -- something that 2 of the 4 classes need.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

woops double-post

starkerealm

PlagueMonk wrote: »

- Poison/Disease Resist: 1440. In practice I have never seen these resists do much. Not to mention very few mobs do disease damage (Im sure someone is now going to post what mobs do disease damage ) and only a few do poison (only Scorpions come to mind). This would be more useful if more mobs actually did these types of damage unlike say Fire that is the single most common type of elemental damage.

Spiders and, I think, wasps.

Of course bow powers do poison, and werewolf players do disease, but if you have a werewolf landing on your face, this isn't going to be enough to save you.

Goblins do poison or disease, but I'm not sure which.

Honestly, given the rarity, I'd think this one could afford to be a lot higher. I know it's so low because it's split across two resist types, but... those are really pointless resists.

patrykplawskib16_ESO

bro not just argonians but nords have bad passives to, has frost resist barley used allot, gives 3% max health again useless and small bonus to, 6% less damage you think this be us-full but really its not cause 95% for the time your being healed anyways in raids and pve, also the last is 30% health recovery, again usless your being healed most of the time, you'd think I tank but I dont cause its boring I don't have any stamina resources and I primarily dps atm but my dreams are crushed in 1.6, cause I do 6.5k dps i want a race change, and no a reroll is to much work getting unduanted to 10 fighters to 10 and mages to 10, having my dk's ability 4 in each tree maxed and morphable and to much achievements on him to.

Ommamar

It is interesting that the one passive that makes sense but is really not useful in the current system, increased swim speed wasn't mentioned. I guess they are tweaking potion use due to the champion passive? It is really the only reason I could see to change things to make potions less powerful. Honestly though I rarely use potions except in hard boss fights and sometimes in group dungeons if someone decided to aggro the whole place causing me to need a burst in magic.

Gyudan

starkerealm wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

- Poison/Disease Resist: 1440. In practice I have never seen these resists do much. Not to mention very few mobs do disease damage (Im sure someone is now going to post what mobs do disease damage ) and only a few do poison (only Scorpions come to mind). This would be more useful if more mobs actually did these types of damage unlike say Fire that is the single most common type of elemental damage.

Spiders and, I think, wasps.

Of course bow powers do poison, and werewolf players do disease, but if you have a werewolf landing on your face, this isn't going to be enough to save you.

Goblins do poison or disease, but I'm not sure which.

Honestly, given the rarity, I'd think this one could afford to be a lot higher. I know it's so low because it's split across two resist types, but... those are really pointless resists.

Everyone knows that poison damage is extremely rare in Cyrodiil. Bow users don't exist. Lethal Arrow is a myth.

Argonians are a great race for tanking in, as NB, DK or Templar thanks to the extra healing received.
The NB argonian DPS used to be extremely strong with potion spam and now it got nerfed a bit, but the 6% of each stat on potion use is again very nice for tanks that don't have high magicka/stamina recovery.

Changing the healing passive to increase both received and done may lead to issues with self heals becoming too strong. In comparison with other passives, healing done shouldn't be increased by more than 3% since this is pretty much the value that defines a healer's effectiveness.

Sylvyr

I concur sir, Argonians got shafted. Your suggestions are good but in the least ZoS should put this in a spotlight.

starkerealm

Ommamar wrote: »

It is interesting that the one passive that makes sense but is really not useful in the current system, increased swim speed wasn't mentioned. I guess they are tweaking potion use due to the champion passive? It is really the only reason I could see to change things to make potions less powerful. Honestly though I rarely use potions except in hard boss fights and sometimes in group dungeons if someone decided to aggro the whole place causing me to need a burst in magic.

A solo surprise wasp party in Craglorn comes to mind as another possible situation...

Gyudan wrote: »

Everyone knows that poison damage is extremely rare in Cyrodiil. Bow users don't exist. Lethal Arrow is a myth.

Whoo! I'm mythical now!

PlagueMonk

Ommamar wrote: »

It is interesting that the one passive that makes sense but is really not useful in the current system, increased swim speed wasn't mentioned. I guess they are tweaking potion use due to the champion passive? It is really the only reason I could see to change things to make potions less powerful. Honestly though I rarely use potions except in hard boss fights and sometimes in group dungeons if someone decided to aggro the whole place causing me to need a burst in magic.

I believe I did address that. To quote myself.....

"Admittedly, most races have a similar resist/stat combo. The sad thing though is, this is the second best thing Argonians have while for others it's the worst thing."

I'm not going to claim Argonian's are the only race with crappy passives. They are however the race with the absolute worst overall collection.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

However, I disagree with some of your proposed changes to the passives. Lore-wise, Argonians are renowned front-line and shadow warriors, as well as healers. There are also already two races that have stealth-related passives, however there are no races that have passives that benefits healers. Therefore, I think it would be better if they increased the value to 10% and made it affect healing received AND healing dealt. That way, we would have increased self-healing on the front and back ends of our abilities, while also contributing to healer and front-line roles (and also resonate with resto staff proficiency passive). I also like the idea of keeping a passive related to potions as it entails an interesting tradeoff like I mentioned above, and fits with the original vision ZOS had and lore about Argonian-plant symbiosis. Since the value of the potion passive in 1.6 it indeed pitiful, I'd like to see it upped to a max of 10-15%, but add another part that reduced potion cooldown by ~6 seconds. This way, we can use all potion types quicker (especially if stacked with potion speed glyphs) and gain more use out of each potion. Because of how potion effects last longer and refresh the same Major/Minor buffs granted by abilities, this wouldn't result in any kind of strengthening of buffs to say, crit or weapong/damage power, but would allow for more survivability through the more frequent use of the instant replenishes offered by stat potions -- something that 2 of the 4 classes need.

I don't claim to be a lore expert but from everything I have read, being great healers is not among their most revered traits (it is mentioned in some fashion however)

(you can skip to the bottom for a recap)

Here are various excerpts:

From Oblivion...

Biology:

Argonians have gills on their necks and are covered in scales. This gives Argonians the unique ability to breathe underwater, which has proven to be an advantage in combat with other races, especially in the swamps of Black Marsh. Argonians are trained in guerrilla warfare to drown their enemies by dragging them to the water and holding them under.

Argonians have very sharp reptilian teeth lining their mouths, which, if they are unarmed, can be used as an effective weapon. If an Argonian becomes a vampire, it appears to age tenfold and its eyes turn light red and nearly blank, though their pupils are still visible. Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.

General:

Argonians are best suited to the role of a close quarters Assassin. This is because Illusion, Alchemy, Mysticism, and Security are all valued skills for an Assassin. Many players enjoy roleplaying as a Shadowscale. An Argonian's natural availability of immunities and resist effect can be further augmented by selecting The Atronach birthsign. The single drawback to having this birthsign can easily be negated by having a single Welkynd Stone and at least two identical scrolls weighing 0.1 pounds in the inventory at all times. Whenever magicka gets too low, simply scroll dupe the Welkynd Stone and use one of the two (or more) that will result.

An Argonian Witchhunter uses bows and spells.

To fully negate the attribute penalties associated with male Argonians, Porphyric Hemophilia needs to be contracted, becoming a vampire. This lessens the number of items required to achieve the same results as a non-vampire.

The only race that is fully immune to poison naturally.

The highest number of natural immunities as a vampire, which adds a convenience factor to playing an Argonian vampire.

Speechcraft, like security, is controlled by a mini-game and depending on the Argonians skill with said mini-game, they may not need any points invested at all. This makes the perceived weakness of -10 Personality unnoticeable for some, due to

Mercantile Tricks and the fact Illusion is only widely used to avoid heavy combat, making the battle importance of the school relatively low (most combat styles provide paralysis effects already).

Bows are almost entirely useless when traveling in underwater locations. Argonians have an easier time in those areas as a melee assassin with high Hand-to-Hand, which can easily be boosted to 85+ at level 1-2 due to certain acquirable items, racial bonuses, vampirism, and taking it as a major skill).

-10 Endurance can be negated by drinking fortify health or upmarket potions (specifically the one which fortifies health/magicka and gives chameleon, and the one which restores health, fortifies health, boosts armor and negates vampiric weakness to fire in a single potion) granted the Argonian has access to the enchanted chest, due to the rare nature of ironwood nuts, painted troll fat and other highly useful alchemy ingredients.

Shadowscale:

Shadowscales are Argonians, born under the sign of The Shadow in Black Marsh. They are trained from childhood in the art of stealth and combat. Shadowscales serve their country as assassins. They have historically been used by the King of Argonia as a means to end conflicts and wars without major bloodshed, and to gather information on potential foes.

From Skyrim:

Race: Argonian

Starting Skill Bonuses: +10 Lockpicking, +5 Alteration, Restoration, Light Armor, Pickpocket, and Sneak

Racial Perks: +50% Resist Disease, Waterbreathing, better Unarmed damage

Special Abilities - Histskin: Health regenerates 10x faster for 60 seconds. Usable once per day.

Argonians are suited to thief-type play, being better at lockpicking from the start. It's a skill that normally takes a bit longer to level, so this is a welcome bonus. Otherwise, their bonuses are a bit spread out. They're not a great race to play unless you'll lean heaviliy on those thief skills, but in that case will need to decide between this Race or Khajiit. Both have a bonus to unarmed damage, though Khajiit are better at this and have a more focused set of bonus skills. Water-breathing has limited usefulness in Skyrim. Diseases can be a nuisance, so picking Argonian may lead to some more care-free play. You're less likely to become a vampire or get an annoying disease that lowers your carrying capacity or skills.

Popular usage and unique gameplay:

The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training.

They are roughly comparable to their rivals and neighbors, the Khajiit and the Bosmer. Like the Khajiit, Argonians do more damage in unarmed combat compared to other races, due to their tough, scaled skin, though not as much as their clawed feline counterparts.[3]

Argonians have unique advantages due to their natural waterbreathing ability. This gives them an all-terrain versatility in an area that other races need magic, potions, or enchanted gear to fill. Argonians are able to make ample use of Skyrim's waterways as a means of quick travel, free from ambush and interference (for example, traveling from Riverwood to Whiterun by river can be quite expedient and avoids roadside hazards including wolves, bandits, and assassins). River travel has its own share of hazards, however, such as waterfalls, rapids, and hostile animals such as Slaughterfish and Mudcrabs. They can also be quite a "tank" in battle because of their Histskin ability that multiplies their health regeneration 10 times.

Physiology

The Argonians posses a symbiotic relationship with the Hist Trees of their home province. When a clutch of Argonian eggs is laid, they are placed near Hist trees in areas known as hatching pools. When the eggs hatch, they form a connection to the Hist. If, for whatever reason, this connection to the Hist is not present or is severed, the unborn within the eggs die. This was used to terrible effect during the Three Banners War, when an Altmer alchemist named Ruuvitar nearly succeeded in wiping out an entire generation of unborn Argonians using a relic called the Mnemic Egg but was thwarted by the Vestige, though not before most of the Shadowfen eggs were destroyed.

Argonians have gills on their necks and are covered in scales. This gives Argonians the ability to breathe underwater, which has proven to be an advantage in combat with other races, especially in the swamps of Black Marsh. Argonians are trained in guerilla warfare and drown their enemies by dragging them to the water and holding them under. Soldiers walking alongside rivers, travelling on ships in the ocean or barges along the rivers have been attacked by Argonians that ambushed them from the water where they lay in wait. They then either kill them or they are forced to flee back into the water and vanish into the depths. Either way it is an effective strategy as they cannot be followed into the deeper oceans and rivers.

During their war with the Reman Empire, some Argonians built headquarters and camps on the bottom of lakes and rivers to guarantee safety. Even if they could be reached, the Argonian gills, fins, propelling tails, sharp teeth, claws, and underwater sight mean that fighting one in the water would be nothing short of suicide.

The Argonians have a very unique type of biology that is different than that of the other beastfolk race, the Khajiits. While a Khajiit's physical appearance is determined by the phase of the two moons, an Argonian's is said to be determined by a sap. When an Argonian hatchling is born, they ingest a special, sacred sap that comes from the hist tree. This sap will determine the overall appearance of that hatchling throughout his life. The Argonians are also known to be proficient sailors and fisherman as two Argonians can use a large net in the water to catch schools of fish.

So to recap all of that, all see over and over are the following:

- Underwater breathing
- Trained in guerrilla warfare
- Sharp teeth giving them an advantage in unarmed combat
- Effective thieves and assassins
- Best suited as a close quarters assassin
- Shadowscale
- Witch Hunter
- Best for a thief style of play
- The Argonian's stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers
- Disease resistance
- Immune to poison
- Histskin health regeneration

So I'm getting a pretty clear picture what an Argonian "should" be (or has been) and being a great healer is not among them. The only reference I found to "healing" was having a small bonus to restoration.

What I don't get is where all of our assassin/thief abilities are in our current passives. Our racial passives do reflect some of the above but the passive list I created fits the above information MUCH more correctly imho.

Xsorus

My Arognian Nightblade basically got removed from the game...since the whole idea around it was Potions...and they pretty much removed it.

3 Nerfs (guttings) in 1 patch

Potion Cooldowns upped 15 seconds
Removal of Potion Effectiveness from the Argonian
and the removed of it from Nightblade...replaced with bloody 8 ultimate I think it was everytime i used a potion...I lose 30% potion effectiveness for that..

PlagueMonk

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

My Arognian Nightblade basically got removed from the game...since the whole idea around it was Potions...and they pretty much removed it.

3 Nerfs (guttings) in 1 patch

Potion Cooldowns upped 15 seconds
Removal of Potion Effectiveness from the Argonian
and the removed of it from Nightblade...replaced with bloody 8 ultimate I think it was everytime i used a potion...I lose 30% potion effectiveness for that..

Yeah I understand. For the potion synergy NBs this effectively killed off your way of playing. (well not removed entirely, just GREATLY delayed their making a comeback.......you will just have to wait until you max out the CP skills to get most of that back)

I'm a Hybrid Argonian NB so, while not quite as crippling, did also remove my way of playing. I will have to switch to a full stamina build with 7/7 med armor.

Erock25

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

My Arognian Nightblade basically got removed from the game...since the whole idea around it was Potions...and they pretty much removed it.

3 Nerfs (guttings) in 1 patch

Potion Cooldowns upped 15 seconds
Removal of Potion Effectiveness from the Argonian
and the removed of it from Nightblade...replaced with bloody 8 ultimate I think it was everytime i used a potion...I lose 30% potion effectiveness for that..

It did absolutely crush a very effective way of playing, if willing to use potions.

Fizzlewizzle

Although Argonians got the Short end of the stick, i myself am not planning on changing my race (or class) because of this.
The initial reason i chose argonians is still intact, and the secondary reason is for me a giant plus side for being an argonian:
1) Swimming speed.
2) Healing Received.
Although the first one might be stupid, as someone who sees water as safety (and hates to walk around), its a huge plus.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I have revised and posted this before and will do so here hoping someone at Zenimax actually reads/responds to it:

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

In thinking about it, I would also like to propose each race have a particular down side, something other races don't suffer from. For Argonians I wound suggest:

Susceptibility to cold - Argonians take 10% more damage from cold attacks.

I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.
I get why people want to bend towards Guerilla Style bonuses, but i have to say... we already got 2 classes that are focused on Sneak already (one more then the other).

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and health regen in and out of combat (7/14/21)%

Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed (50/75/100%) and Reduce damage taken while swimming (25/50/75%).
It would turn water in an escape route for the Argonians.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Argonian Hardiness (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Increases Poison/Disease resistance by 1440. Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults)

Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.
Increasing it past the 21% you suggested (at tier 3) would be a decent option (to replace the Quick to Mend perk we currently have). Going to the level of the Bosmer's Stamina regen (although this one should be in and out of combat), or passing that could possible.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases movement speed while stealthed by (7/14/21)% and increases non magicka based attacks while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?
Looking at their immunity to disease and poison, as well as their claws, jaws and where they come from... i wouldn't be so surprised if they could use those tools for dealing extra damage.
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – While using melee attacks (Stamina based or Light/ Heavy attacks), deal an extra (2/4/6%) of your damage as Bleed, Poison and Disease damage to the target.
(The percentage isn't for the total added damage, but for the Bleed, Poison and Disease Individually. The total would be 6/12/18% if the target has no resistance or immunity for any of those effects).

Tonnopesce

While i do belive ( since i have an Argonian nightblade) that the Argonian race need a little bit of love i dont think that racial passives are sooooo much a thing, today i was unable to find a group to go into cript of hearts normal (since i'm DC it is a lv 30 dungeon ) and i've decided to try in solo.....and i've conquered it , without use of potions ( it was my dream build too for this char)... i forgot to craft some so....

Yesterday i was worried on how i will tranform this alt post 1.6 with today i just dont care, it will be a good race-class choice; not a min-max choice but i've understand that racial passives dont make the difference, players does.


Let the storm begin!

xaraan

Argonians do need a little love, but some of the ideas are a bit OP in the OP.

First of all, the swim speed - it is fluff, which is why it's only one part of a two-part passive. Also, I love it on my argonian.

No, they do not also need a giant boost to stealthed movement.

The 3% health boost should be a bit higher, but due to their other health bonuses for healing and all, it shouldn't be much more than double what it is now, I'd go up to 5%, especially considering it's only one part of another two part passive, also giving them resistance. That being said, resistances for all the races that have them I think need buffed as they were not scaled up properly with the new stats IMO.

The potion change really only screws over builds that stacked the potion buffs for NB and Arg together. Being able to drink any potion, even a crappy one and get 6% of your resources back isn't bad at all. The boost they had before wouldn't have given them much different drinking a tri-pot (unless stacked with NB bonuses). Worse case here is that this new passive could use a slight buff, but all together it's not as bad a change as some are making it out to be.

Fizzlewizzle

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

While i do belive ( since i have an Argonian nightblade) that the Argonian race need a little bit of love i dont think that racial passives are sooooo much a thing, today i was unable to find a group to go into cript of hearts normal (since i'm DC it is a lv 30 dungeon ) and i've decided to try in solo.....and i've conquered it , without use of potions ( it was my dream build too for this char)... i forgot to craft some so....

Yesterday i was worried on how i will tranform this alt post 1.6 with today i just dont care, it will be a good race-class choice; not a min-max choice but i've understand that racial passives dont make the difference, players does.


Let the storm begin!

For people who aren't min-maxers it doesn't make much of a difference (as i also said, the main things why i liked an Argonian have not changed). For Min-maxers it does make a difference.

People who originally build around the potion passives (especially Argonian NB) really get put down. Even as someone who isn't that bothered by it i do think that ignoring it would be a bad thing.

At least this "unfairness" gives us a reason to address the Argonians... Playing one shouldn't be a negative thing.
(wish i was a NB like you... instead of a Templar)

Tonnopesce

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

While i do belive ( since i have an Argonian nightblade) that the Argonian race need a little bit of love i dont think that racial passives are sooooo much a thing, today i was unable to find a group to go into cript of hearts normal (since i'm DC it is a lv 30 dungeon ) and i've decided to try in solo.....and i've conquered it , without use of potions ( it was my dream build too for this char)... i forgot to craft some so....

Yesterday i was worried on how i will tranform this alt post 1.6 with today i just dont care, it will be a good race-class choice; not a min-max choice but i've understand that racial passives dont make the difference, players does.


Let the storm begin!

For people who aren't min-maxers it doesn't make much of a difference (as i also said, the main things why i liked an Argonian have not changed). For Min-maxers it does make a difference.

People who originally build around the potion passives (especially Argonian NB) really get put down. Even as someone who isn't that bothered by it i do think that ignoring it would be a bad thing.

At least this "unfairness" gives us a reason to address the Argonians... Playing one shouldn't be a negative thing.
(wish i was a NB like you... instead of a Templar)

I cannot ageree more with you.

While i dont ignore the passives change for this specific build when the pach notes of 1.6 has released i have farmed hard the alchemy crafting on my argonian to gain a little more combined with the potions and to try to rebalance some of the loss ( now i can craft srtonger 1 or 2 stat potions wit maybe a negative effect) and dont have to much problems due to the alchemy crafting passives, Plus tanks to the "new" argonian passive i can use a two- stat (magika + health) and even rec stamina.
Now since the nightblades dont have a major health buff to equip in the skill bar we can use healt potions without problems and tanks to the new argonian passives we can have even a little bit more from those (now i dont do math but i belive that a Nightblade- Argonian will still have a big advantage for a potion build)

PlagueMonk

To respond to your ideas....

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Although Argonians got the Short end of the stick, i myself am not planning on changing my race (or class) because of this.
The initial reason i chose argonians is still intact, and the secondary reason is for me a giant plus side for being an argonian:
1) Swimming speed.
2) Healing Received.
Although the first one might be stupid, as someone who sees water as safety (and hates to walk around), its a huge plus.

I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.
I get why people want to bend towards Guerilla Style bonuses, but i have to say... we already got 2 classes that are focused on Sneak already (one more then the other).

The reason why I chose Guerrilla Warfare Expertise is its lore correct (please refer to the lengthy excerpts I included in my second post above) And while it might be three races with stealth, all three in the lore are experts in stealth/thievery and assassination. So why Bosmer and Cats got their lore correctness and Argonians did not is a **** thing to do imho. They deserve to be lore correct just as much as the other 2 races, even if it is a but "bland".

And with the loss of our potion synergy, +6% to healing is pretty marginal.

Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed (50/75/100%) and Reduce damage taken while swimming (25/50/75%).
It would turn water in an escape route for the Argonians.

Doesn't matter to me where is goes or what it's called, the race deserves health regen to simulate the histbark regen skill the race has had in lore. I admit I would really like to give Argonians a once per 30min self heal but that would probably cause an uproar so I went with a similar ability from other races.

As to your suggestion about reduced damage while in the water......well the problem is water is already an escape route. Once you get into swimming depth mobs stop following (even crocs!). I use this all the time if I don't want to fight something. And out in PvP you cannot swim w/o encountering slaughter fish, making it a useless skill. So this ability would be even more useless than our new potion ability.

Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.
Increasing it past the 21% you suggested (at tier 3) would be a decent option (to replace the Quick to Mend perk we currently have). Going to the level of the Bosmer's Stamina regen (although this one should be in and out of combat), or passing that could possible.

Again I don't care where health regen is but it is lore appropriate.

I would have possibly went with max stamina but didn't want to step on the Redguards toes so I went with health (plus even Zenimax gave use 3% so I went further to match some other races max stat gains. And extra health helps EVERYONE, especially with the removal of the softcap. Someone might see +9% health and determine that alone would help make a great temp or DK tank.

Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?
Looking at their immunity to disease and poison, as well as their claws, jaws and where they come from... i wouldn't be so surprised if they could use those tools for dealing extra damage.
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – While using melee attacks (Stamina based or Light/ Heavy attacks), deal an extra (2/4/6%) of your damage as Bleed, Poison and Disease damage to the target.
(The percentage isn't for the total added damage, but for the Bleed, Poison and Disease Individually. The total would be 6/12/18% if the target has no resistance or immunity for any of those effects).

It's not overkill if that's the way the race has been envisioned in the Elder Scrolls universe since the beginning.

I also do not like dealing extra damage with basic attacks because I don't like it tied to damage that is not a class or weapon ability. NO ONE relies on light and heavy attacks for the majority of their damage. I am done with marginal/useless passives and desire good ones for a change.

Also just because they are resistant to disease/poison doesn't make them a bacterial breeding ground like the Komodo Dragon. They have sharp teeth which is really only useful if you are unarmed. That should never happen in ESO so this is more lore fluff similar to the Khajiit claws.


There are other lore appropriate abilities I wouldn't mind adding like:

- Scaly hide. I thought about giving Argonians a flat armor amount to go with 3% health but wasn't sure what would be good (or too good)
- Underwater Breathing. Something that if underwater areas did ever get put in we should by all rights get. I have always wondered if the reason why we got gimped so bad was because underwater area are planned and they would then just give us this ability.
- Stealthy. Decreased detect radius and decreased stamina use while stealthed. (I chose increased move speed because no other race has that)

Heishi

Argonians gotch botched because they removed half the mechanics which an argonian excelled at. Really I suspect that argonians were an after thought. They got everything laid out and got to the skills saw Argonian and was like:

"alright let's see what they had before."

Lockpicking- Mostly gone
Pickpocket- Gone
Alteration- Gone
Sneak- Khajiit and Bosmer already have this.
Light Armor- Maybe.. maybe
Restoration- OH that we have and no one has racial for it yet

"Well crap, We have one maybe two usable passive, what do we do now?"
"Did you check the older games?"

Skills
+10 Athletics- Gone
+10 Security- Gone
+5 Alchemy- Oh this is good we have alchemy too
+5 Blade- Maybe?
+5 Hand to Hand- Gone
+5 Illusion- Gone
+5 Mysticism- Gone
Traits
Argonian Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant- We don't have diseases but hey we have disease damage that almost nothing uses.
Argonian Poison Immunity ability: Resist Poison 100% on Self, constant- Maybe. Oh and we can combine this with the disease and make the players think they're getting two for one.
Argonian Water Breathing ability: Water Breathing on Self, constant Gone

"That didn't go well, dig deeper guys, there may still be hope. Blow the dust off that Morrowind game and see what we have."

+15 Athletics- This again? Gone
+5 Alchemy- Hey second time this came up, this must be what they're about!
+5 Illusion- Gone
+5 Medium Armor- Wait didn't they later get Light Armor? This confuses us, scrap all armor ideas.
+5 Mysticism- Gone
+5 Spear- Gone, lol what's a spear
+5 Unarmored Gone
Spell: Water Breathing Water Breathing for 120sec on Self, Cost: 5pts- Gone
Ability: Resist Poison Resist Poison 100%- Hey we saw this before, this is sounding good.
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease 75%- Look guys that disease resist again too.

"Alright guys let's take thirty and come back with a solution"

*30 min later*

"So what'd you guys come up with"

"Oh Shi..! That's right we were supposed to come up with racial skills Uhm..."

"Well they like healing, potions, that poison disease resistance, and something about water. I got it!"

Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.
Increases swimming speed by 50% and the effectiveness of potions by (5/10/15)%.
Increases maximum Health by (1/2/3)% and Poison and Disease resistance by (7/14/21).
Increases healing received by (2/4/6)%.

"What do you think guys? Huh? Huh?.... Guys..Sh!t I failed..I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, I had a hangover this morning and just.. sorry."

*sigh*"Uhg.. dude what is that.. Alright, whatever we don't have time to polish it, just stick it in the game, nobody plays Agonian anyways right? Right?"

Dreamo84

I always felt like the Scales should account for some kind of armor boost. I mean how can they not have naturally tougher skin than every other race?

Fizzlewizzle

PlagueMonk wrote: »

To respond to your ideas....

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Although Argonians got the Short end of the stick, i myself am not planning on changing my race (or class) because of this.
The initial reason i chose argonians is still intact, and the secondary reason is for me a giant plus side for being an argonian:
1) Swimming speed.
2) Healing Received.
Although the first one might be stupid, as someone who sees water as safety (and hates to walk around), its a huge plus.

I do like some of the ideas, although some might be a bit bland.
I get why people want to bend towards Guerilla Style bonuses, but i have to say... we already got 2 classes that are focused on Sneak already (one more then the other).

The reason why I chose Guerrilla Warfare Expertise is its lore correct (please refer to the lengthy excerpts I included in my second post above) And while it might be three races with stealth, all three in the lore are experts in stealth/thievery and assassination. So why Bosmer and Cats got their lore correctness and Argonians did not is a **** thing to do imho. They deserve to be lore correct just as much as the other 2 races, even if it is a but "bland".

And with the loss of our potion synergy, +6% to healing is pretty marginal.

I agree that stealth type tree does fit with the Argonians (Lore wise), Its just that 95% of what makes an Argonian an Argonian was not in the game when it was launched (Under water Areas, Pickpocket and Thieving).

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Though not a bad one, i personally think that the Health regen bonus would be more fitting with Argonian Hardiness, rather than an Amphibian based skill. If i could chose a more fitting one it would be something among the lines of:
Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed (50/75/100%) and Reduce damage taken while swimming (25/50/75%).
It would turn water in an escape route for the Argonians.

Doesn't matter to me where is goes or what it's called, the race deserves health regen to simulate the histbark regen skill the race has had in lore. I admit I would really like to give Argonians a once per 30min self heal but that would probably cause an uproar so I went with a similar ability from other races.

As to your suggestion about reduced damage while in the water......well the problem is water is already an escape route. Once you get into swimming depth mobs stop following (even crocs!). I use this all the time if I don't want to fight something. And out in PvP you cannot swim w/o encountering slaughter fish, making it a useless skill. So this ability would be even more useless than our new potion ability.

It is indeed true that enemies will stop chasing you when you get too deep in the water, it was more of a counter measure against Slaughterfish and Archers. Being 3 times faster and 3 times more resistant against Slaughterfish would mean that you can get 9 times as far in Slaughterfish infested waters compared to any other Race. Might not be perfect, but i think the distance you can cover in that amount of time (Slaughterfish invested waters or not) will put any enemy (player or otherwise) far behind you, even if, in the end, you were to come back to the shore to continue on foot.

I also put the health regen you suggested into another tree (but you mentioned that already).

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Boosting a stat, even with the removal of the soft caps, doesn't make a class better. Swapping the Maximum health for the Health regen effect you suggested for "Amphibian Physiology" might be more fitting.
Increasing it past the 21% you suggested (at tier 3) would be a decent option (to replace the Quick to Mend perk we currently have). Going to the level of the Bosmer's Stamina regen (although this one should be in and out of combat), or passing that could possible.

Again I don't care where health regen is but it is lore appropriate.

I would have possibly went with max stamina but didn't want to step on the Redguards toes so I went with health (plus even Zenimax gave use 3% so I went further to match some other races max stat gains. And extra health helps EVERYONE, especially with the removal of the softcap. Someone might see +9% health and determine that alone would help make a great temp or DK tank.

I get what you were aiming for, but like you thought "Zenimax gave us 3%, lets increase it" i thought "Zenimax only gave us 3%, lets swap it". The added HP might be useful for some builds (Tanks), but in the end i really didn't get the picture of a guerilla tank. For an Argonian as a Tank i would see them more fitting for health regen then total health. Its to bad that Restoring Aura got a nerf (80% >20%), or else they would have been pretty good sustain tanks.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Although i get the whole point of Argonians and Guerrilla Warfare, having a 3rd class that boosts sneaking and sneak attacks would be a bit... overkill?
Looking at their immunity to disease and poison, as well as their claws, jaws and where they come from... i wouldn't be so surprised if they could use those tools for dealing extra damage.
Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – While using melee attacks (Stamina based or Light/ Heavy attacks), deal an extra (2/4/6%) of your damage as Bleed, Poison and Disease damage to the target.
(The percentage isn't for the total added damage, but for the Bleed, Poison and Disease Individually. The total would be 6/12/18% if the target has no resistance or immunity for any of those effects).

It's not overkill if that's the way the race has been envisioned in the Elder Scrolls universe since the beginning.

I also do not like dealing extra damage with basic attacks because I don't like it tied to damage that is not a class or weapon ability. NO ONE relies on light and heavy attacks for the majority of their damage. I am done with marginal/useless passives and desire good ones for a change.

Also just because they are resistant to disease/poison doesn't make them a bacterial breeding ground like the Komodo Dragon. They have sharp teeth which is really only useful if you are unarmed. That should never happen in ESO so this is more lore fluff similar to the Khajiit claws.

To clear out misunderstanding about this immediately... I did not mean only basic attacks.
I meant Light and Heavy attack and all Stamina based skills AS LONG AS they weren't long range.
I do get your point though... In Skyrim (and other previous games) unarmed was a valid combat way, here its just for fun and giggles.

I did like your original idea, but the main reason i wanted change was because (1) The sneak speed is already a thorn in the eye for some people (you can become extremely fast already, no boosts needed) (2) The attack buff is just like the Khajit one. No need for a rip-off Khajit.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

There are other lore appropriate abilities I wouldn't mind adding like:

- Scaly hide. I thought about giving Argonians a flat armor amount to go with 3% health but wasn't sure what would be good (or too good)
- Underwater Breathing. Something that if underwater areas did ever get put in we should by all rights get. I have always wondered if the reason why we got gimped so bad was because underwater area are planned and they would then just give us this ability.
- Stealthy. Decreased detect radius and decreased stamina use while stealthed. (I chose increased move speed because no other race has that)

I personally find number 1 a waste of Skill Points, and i don't see number 2 happen so fast.
Number 3 would be nice if you were to add a more thief like skill with it instead of the Stamina regen.

Or maybe Something along the line of:
- Swift Fingers: Increase Pickpocket chance (5/10/15%), Keep the (2/4/6) most valuable items when getting caught by a guard.
- Steal and Barter Increase the amount of stolen items you can Launder/ sell by 10/20/30%, Stolen Items sell for 10/20/30% more.

Cody

Argonians OP

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Why not switch Amphibious potion effect with a 3/6/9% extra health and keep the swim speed? This way Argonians would get 12% Health, 1440 Poison/Disease resist, 6% extra Healing recieved and 50% swin speed.

Darkonflare15

I wish that Argonains got a potion passives that effect while the potion is in effect instead of at the beginning. Since the potion cooldown is longer we well not have access to our passive which sucks.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

xaraan wrote: »

The potion change really only screws over builds that stacked the potion buffs for NB and Arg together. Being able to drink any potion, even a crappy one and get 6% of your resources back isn't bad at all. The boost they had before wouldn't have given them much different drinking a tri-pot (unless stacked with NB bonuses). Worse case here is that this new passive could use a slight buff, but all together it's not as bad a change as some are making it out to be.

Again, while the +6% to all stats on a potion seems nice at first glance, with 30k points in a stat it really only equates to 2-3 ticks of regen, or about half the cost of most abilities, or less than the damage from a light attack. That is not really useful at all, especially since it can only be used every 45 seconds at most, and also only if you aren't already at full/almost full stats. Moreover, this (and NB Catalyst) is also the only passive in the game tied directly to your bank account, but the benefit just isn't worth it.

It would be interesting to crunch the numbers and compare the current 15% potion effectiveness on a tri-pot and the change to 6% of stat. I agree the idea for the new passive isn't terrible, but the current value is. If they don't up the value, then they should make NB's Catalyst passive (the other potion effectiveness passive) the same so they stack once again. That would solve a lot (if not all) the problems people have.

xaraan

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

The potion change really only screws over builds that stacked the potion buffs for NB and Arg together. Being able to drink any potion, even a crappy one and get 6% of your resources back isn't bad at all. The boost they had before wouldn't have given them much different drinking a tri-pot (unless stacked with NB bonuses). Worse case here is that this new passive could use a slight buff, but all together it's not as bad a change as some are making it out to be.

Again, while the +6% to all stats on a potion seems nice at first glance, with 30k points in a stat it really only equates to 2-3 ticks of regen, or about half the cost of most abilities, or less than the damage from a light attack. That is not really useful at all, especially since it can only be used every 45 seconds at most, and also only if you aren't already at full/almost full stats. Moreover, this (and NB Catalyst) is also the only passive in the game tied directly to your bank account, but the benefit just isn't worth it.

It would be interesting to crunch the numbers and compare the current 15% potion effectiveness on a tri-pot and the change to 6% of stat. I agree the idea for the new passive isn't terrible, but the current value is. If they don't up the value, then they should make NB's Catalyst passive (the other potion effectiveness passive) the same so they stack once again. That would solve a lot (if not all) the problems people have.

How does 6% of your stats change from 15% more boost from a 3 stat potion? That number would be about the same or lower would it not? It doesn't matter how many "ticks" of regen it is, we are comparing it to what it used to be, not what someone's regen is. My argonian got about 5-6% of his health as a bonus (when figuring what the 15% bonus gives me) when drinking a health pot. Which is a few ticks of his regen - so the potion effectiveness didn't change a whole lot except for argonian nightblades that could stack the bonus or perhaps some sort of bonus on non-regen potions lost. Now, it will be a bit less on stats that aren't as high, so of course I can see it's not exactly the same bonus, but most players are over reacting on this issue. (Not to mention, you can drink a trash potion and get that boost to all three stats, so in some ways it can even work out better - but really, it's just different, not that much better or worse though.)

It also makes no difference on the 45 second change either racial wise - as that is a change that effects everyone. Yes it sucks, but it sucks for all races.

Tonnopesce

BAM!

Today i've come up with a new bomb....... super specific racial passives!

Only to add not to change with something

Argonians:

Slavery Rage,
While in combat evry melee heavy attak has a 8% chance to kill a Dummer enemy causing 40'000 bleading damage over 4 seconds , 30 seconds cooldown

Dummer:

Oppressive presence,
While in combat evry ability cast has a 5% chance to induce Fear and root for 4 seconds Evry Argonian in a 8 meters radius,
10 seconds cooldown (i was thinking at the lava whip for this passive..... sad but true...)

Since not evrybody has the explorer pack or the imperial edition this passive will apply only to the enemies of other alliance for EP but it will become considerably stronger if you have a Dummer or an Argonian into DC or AD.

In a lore - related way the Argonians in the other alliances ( not Ep) can be slaves refugee angry with the Dummers, while the Dark Elves maybe are not aware of the Ep alliance and see Argonians not as an ally but as slaves as usual...

While into the Ep alliance, the two races outside of Ep will be the rage outburst

What you think?

cazlonb16_ESO

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

If they don't up the value, then they should make NB's Catalyst passive (the other potion effectiveness passive) the same so they stack once again. That would solve a lot (if not all) the problems people have.

And that would help my Argonian Templar how, exactly ? Newsflash: Argonian characters aren't all Nightblades.

Fizzlewizzle

As someone who actually used the Potion booster jewelry glympses i could easily get around 900-1000 Magicka, Stamina and Health from a single potion (crafted my own tri-pots). Add to that the 15% as an argonian (and the 30% of an Nightblade, which i'm not) and you would get pots ranging from 1035-1305 up till 1150-1450.

With 1.6 you no longer have the potion boosting Glympses, which makes your potions drop back to (the current) 450-700 value, with an extra 6% in all stats.

Well... I personally just got screwed for around 750 in effectiveness Which is 1 complete potion.
No way that 6% of your max stats will be able to fix that (Atm i would need around 45% return on a potion in each stat to get the same bonus i had before... and i aint even a nightblade)

From a more realistic point of view. 6% is nothing if the old effect was 15% (which also affected secondary and third bonuses).
- 1 stat potion users got 9% less effective potions, and 12% which they don't need (else they would have use a 3 stat potion).
- 2 stat potion users got 18% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).
- 3 stat potion users got 27% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).

If they wanted to make a more fair trade-off they could have given the argonians 15% in all stats when using a potion (instead of the 6%), and maybe for NB a time increase on potions (20-30%). Time is currently a valid thing for options, with the secondary effects and all. Getting 30-45% of your stats back when using a potion would be overkill.

Tonnopesce

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

As someone who actually used the Potion booster jewelry glympses i could easily get around 900-1000 Magicka, Stamina and Health from a single potion (crafted my own tri-pots). Add to that the 15% as an argonian (and the 30% of an Nightblade, which i'm not) and you would get pots ranging from 1035-1305 up till 1150-1450.

With 1.6 you no longer have the potion boosting Glympses, which makes your potions drop back to (the current) 450-700 value, with an extra 6% in all stats.

Well... I personally just got screwed for around 750 in effectiveness Which is 1 complete potion.
No way that 6% of your max stats will be able to fix that (Atm i would need around 45% return on a potion in each stat to get the same bonus i had before... and i aint even a nightblade)

From a more realistic point of view. 6% is nothing if the old effect was 15% (which also affected secondary and third bonuses).
- 1 stat potion users got 9% less effective potions, and 12% which they don't need (else they would have use a 3 stat potion).
- 2 stat potion users got 18% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).
- 3 stat potion users got 27% less effective potions, and 6% which they don't need (same reason as above).

If they wanted to make a more fair trade-off they could have given the argonians 15% in all stats when using a potion (instead of the 6%), and maybe for NB a time increase on potions (20-30%). Time is currently a valid thing for options, with the secondary effects and all. Getting 30-45% of your stats back when using a potion would be overkill.

You have to put in the equation even that you cannot use the potion random in 1.6
This will not be too much of a problem for templars dk and sorc since they have others ways to regenerate healt(wich btw will not stack with the potions) but it will be particulary unbalanced for nightblades since they dont have a class self heal, a DK can get the 45% of his healt back with a single GDB ^^ this is not balanced imho.
The best in 1.6 will be an argonian nightblade but since ZO$ have screwed up the passives of both ( class-race)
now the argonian builds are worthless for the potion use and even nightblades....(still stronger than other races but overhall weaker).