@ZOS Stamina Sorc Suggestions

Tsaxby95 · February 2015

I absolutely agree with OP. It would be nice to hear what @ZOS_GinaBruno have in store for Stamina Sorcs. Other threads are getting replies to say you're looking into it (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1571847#Comment_1571847) - but it'd be nice to have some confirmation/clarification for us stamina sorcs.

Also just thought I would add my opinion in:

I like this suggestion also to open up tanking for stamina Sorcs even more:

Gyudan wrote: »

- Wards don't scale based on health but based on max magicka. I think that Hardened Ward (the morph with 30% increased shield strength on self should be stamina-based and based on max health, to give tanks some form of protection despite the lack of self heals.

In addition:

madangrypally wrote: »

Bound Armor: Add Minor Ward to Bound Armor. Allow Max Magicka to scale to 10% at Rank 4
Bound Armaments: Same changes as above with with Stamina and current bonuses.
Bound Aegis: Changed to something else.
Critical Surge (surge morph): This needs to be adjusted as currently it only adds 10% to the heal, Or remove it and replace it with something else for Stamina builds.

This would add some real nice/needed survivability when in PVE and PVP.

This is just my quick opinion as I am often just a lurker on the forums but I don't want to see how I like to play affected by some unfair nerfs. I switched recently on the live server to a bow/DW sorc and I'm really liking it however I rely a lot on crit surge to keep alive, if this is nerfed I'm afraid I'll probably have to switch back to a magicka sorc.

Jar_Ek · February 2015

Why does it seem that every change that is made has unforseen side-effects? It seems that zos are unable to consider all major playstyles before making changes... hence Expert Mage change negatively impacts stamina builds, critical surge negatively impacts melee and DoT builds, etc.

The main playstyles are stamina tank and DPS (melee and ranged) magicka DPS (mostly ranged, but also melee options) and healer, oh and pet variants of the above. The only playstyles that have been actively thought through seem to be ranged magicka DPS and pet builds.

Current magicka costs cripple stamina users. Maybe some of the passives should change based on which skills you have morphed in what way? For example, if Bound Armaments morph is taken then Expert Mage reduces all magicka costs of sorcerer skills by 3% per sorcerer skill slotted, otherwise it provides spell power. If Daedric prey is taken, then Expert Summoner buffs pets as current, if not then it curse damage, Ward and mines. If Empowered ward is selected then rebate provides a magicka regeneration plus return on pet death, if hardened then health regeneration plus magicians return on death.

Well something like that anyway.

Domander · February 2015

Jahosefat wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

People, each class can be very good used, just use your creativity and knowledge of game.Sorc with two hander and resto staff at second weapon tab is good combination even with dual wield try everything you can.Also each class has its own spells so combine them with weapon skills.

I have tried everything and am continuing to try everything. There are very little amount of passives or active abilities in the Sorc skills that synergize well with a stamina build. Using resto as a stamina Sorc took a huge nerf in 1.6 because weapon power no longer increases resto heals. The only skills a Sorc has that synergize with a stamina build is Lightning Form, Critical Surge, Bound Armaments, and to a certain extent Streak. The problem is Immovable is just as good or better (depending on what you're doing and how much stam regen you have) than Lightning Form, Rally is just as good or better than Crit Surge, Bound Armaments is pretty weak compared to the two slots it takes up, and Streak is tough for a stamina Sorc to use that often.

Instead of just saying 'use your creativity' and 'try everything you can', you should contribute to the conversation by offering up your own ideas as to why stamina Sorc is currently balanced if you feel that way.

Exactly my take on this. Rally + Vigor is way more sustainable than taking up a spot with crit surge for a stam sorc. NB got the stambush (~20-25k crits easy) and surprise attack stam morph. They also no longer have any negative from casting marked target.... at a time when spell resist/armor is much more crucial to survivability. Stam sorcs need a stam-based damage ability that is heavy hitting, instant, and carries a soft cc to even hope of competing with stam NB/DK/TempTank.

20 to 25k crits easy?

really?

Bull.

GreyRanger · February 2015

Given some of the struggles ZOS has had with balancing the Sorcerer why not just grab some of the abilities from classes they are happy with (DK & Temp) reskin and rename them and drop them into the Sorcerer lines.

For example:
Dark exchange is useless has been described by players to death. So take it out and functionally replace it with Dragon Blood. problem solved.

The second solution is simply to remember that some people will be playing a Sorcerer with a stamina build (foolish players

). So when you add a passive that boosts spell power or spell critical make it boost spell and weapon power and weapon and spell critical. This change won't solve things unless ZOS gets the magicka Sorcerer figured out, but it does mean that as they work on that they will drag the stamina sorcerer along with it.

Erock25 · February 2015

With ZOS possibly making some Sorc notes today I just wanted to copy from my other thread the clear discrepancy between what stamina options were offered to each class.....

DK changes that affect stamina builds

Searing Strike

Unstable Flames (morph): This ability now scales off Stamina and Attack Power and costs Stamina. Damage is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics.

Fiery Breath

Burning Breath (morph): This ability will now scale off of stamina and weapon power, and is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics. This ability now applies the Major Fracture debuff to your target.

Inferno

Flames of Oblivion (morph): This ability now provides the same effect as Inferno, as well as providing the Major Savagery (that is weapon crit) buff while active.

Molten Weapons

This ability will no longer buff allies. Instead, activating Molten Weapons will increase your heavy attack damage by 40% for 7 seconds. The duration increases with each additional rank.

Igneous Weapons (morph): Using a heavy attack while this ability is active will increase its duration by one second.

Molten Armaments (morph): This ability now increases the extra damage against low health targets.

Slightly reduced the cost of Molten Weapons and its morphs.

Earthen Heart

Mountain’s Blessing: This passive now also grants all allies within 30 meters the buff Minor Brutality for 10 seconds at Rank I, or 20 seconds at Rank II.

NB changes that affect stamina builds

Assassins Blade

Killer’s Blade (morph): This is now a stamina-based ability. The heal from this ability will now be applied if your target dies within 2 seconds of the ability being used, regardless of who killed the target.

Teleport Strike

Ambush: This ability now uses stamina instead of magicka, and applies the Minor Berserk buff on the next attack.

Mark Target

This ability now grants the Major Breach and Major Fracture buffs.
Removed the penalty from this ability.
This ability can now be cast on any target.
Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 50%, and reduced the duration to 20 seconds.
Piercing Mark (morph): The duration of this ability now scales with ability ranks up to a maximum of 30 seconds.
Reaper’s Mark (morph): This ability now grants the Major Berserk buff for 8 seconds after the target is killed.

Veiled Strike

Surprise Attack (morph): This morph is now a stamina-based ability, now applies the Major Fracture debuff, and will no longer reduce your target’s armor if they dodge the initial attack.

Drain Power

The damage caused by Drain Power no longer scales with the number of targets hit. Instead, you will receive a Major Brutality buff when damaging at least one target.
Power Extraction (morph): This ability now scales off weapon damage and stamina instead of magicka and spell damage. The damage has also been increased by 10%.

Templar changes that affect stamina builds

Puncturing Strikes

Biting Jabs (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power, and now also provides the Major Savagery buff.

Piercing Javelin

Binding Javelin (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power.

Backlash

Power of Light (morph): This ability now applies the Minor Fracture debuff to your target, and the damage caps are derived from your maximum stamina.

Aedric Spear

Burning Light: The damage from this passive is now derived from your highest stats (stamina or magicka based).

Aedric Spear

Balance Warrior: Increased the weapon damage from this passive to 3% at Rank I, and 6% at Rank II.

Sorc changes that affect stamina builds

Bound Armor

Bound Armaments (morph): This ability now costs Stamina instead of Magicka, gives you a bonus to stamina instead of magicka, and increases the damage done by heavy attacks.

Dark Exchange

Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

Overload

Overload and Power Overload will now properly scale their damage off Weapon Damage and Stamina in the event that they are higher than Spell Power and Magicka.

If you read through all of the above lists, you may have noticed that DK got 2 attacks scaled on stamina and various stamina build buffs, NB got 4 attacks scaled on stamina and various stamina build buffs, Templar got 3 attacks scaled on stamina and various stamina build buffs, while the Sorc got only ONE ultimate and zero basic attacks scaled on stamina and only one stamina buff that comes in the form of near useless toggle. Bound Armaments may find its way into some builds for sure, but it is tough to stomach using 2 slots for it. Dark Deal is totally and completely useless. There is no use for a channel in melee range without a way to quickly create distance (streak doesn't work well with stamina build... especially now with Expert Mage change). As for the Overload change, I think all ultimates should scale on stamina+weap or magicka + spell anyways and I'm surprised any class ultimates are forcing people to go into a magicka spec. Overall I am very underwhelmed with what was offered to the stamina sorc.

c0rp · February 2015

Stamina sorc definitely needs some love before this patch goes live. These suggestions are great, and I am sure will go mostly ignored. But well done.

mike.capib16_ESO · February 2015

Pets should scale with Magicka or Stamina, whatever is higher, like the Overload change does and the Daedric Summoning passives should be adjusted accordingly. Hunter Sorcerers please.

Snit · February 2015

Currently, Thundering Presence and Surge do not play nice together. The small damage tics can eat the heal cooldown. These two abilities should be the signature of stamina sorcs. They both look and sound awesome, and they provide potentially nice sustain. The conflict in their mechanics should be reduced.

GreyRanger · February 2015

How about eliminating the conflict by removing the the surge CD? Add to that getting the magicka costs back in line (I am looking at you Expert Mage nerf/buff) and we might get back to the beginning.

They can still deal with the PVP wall breach zerg problem for surge by limiting AOE targets.

Erock25 · February 2015

Here's to hoping that Eric Worbel (Wrobel? Wobble? It's early) can take a look at some stamina issues sorcs are facing.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2015

Add to that getting the magicka costs back in line (I am looking at you Expert Mage nerf/buff) and we might get back to the beginning.

Just got back from testing a sorc on PTS. Granted I only had the test gear but my ability to cast utility skills in the stormcalling tree with 5 Medium armor and 2 light is EXTREMELY low. 1 or 2 casts and I'm out of magicka.

This setup worked fine for me previously although I couldn't spam abilities as much as I could with 5-7 light. You had to be careful. Critical Surge was already a very expensive skill for what it did.

Stamina builds rely on being able to use Magicka for utility spells and stamina for DPS. The stormcalling skill line has some of the most important utility spells a sorcerer can have.

I don't think ZOS realizes how big of a nerf, the expert mage passive change was. If they could just reduce all storm calling spell costs by 10% to make up for it, that would be a first big step to ensure that stamina sorcs aren't obsolete.

I know that some builds may not be viable in 1.6, but ZOS said they were commited to making stamina equal in potential to magicka. All other classes can run effective (two offensive weapon) stamina builds because their utility spells are cheap enough and effective enough to cast.

Erock25 · February 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Add to that getting the magicka costs back in line (I am looking at you Expert Mage nerf/buff) and we might get back to the beginning.

Just got back from testing a sorc on PTS. Granted I only had the test gear but my ability to cast utility skills in the stormcalling tree with 5 Medium armor and 2 light is EXTREMELY low. 1 or 2 casts and I'm out of magicka.

This setup worked fine for me previously although I couldn't spam abilities as much as I could with 5-7 light. You had to be careful. Critical Surge was already a very expensive skill for what it did.

Stamina builds rely on being able to use Magicka for utility spells and stamina for DPS. The stormcalling skill line has some of the most important utility spells a sorcerer can have.

I don't think ZOS realizes how big of a nerf, the expert mage passive change was. If they could just reduce all storm calling spell costs by 10% to make up for it, that would be a first big step to ensure that stamina sorcs aren't obsolete.

I know that some builds may not be viable in 1.6, but ZOS said they were commited to making stamina equal in potential to magicka. All other classes can run effective (two offensive weapon) stamina builds because their utility spells are cheap enough and effective enough to cast.

Honestly even if they do the 10% reduction to Storm Calling across the board, Crit Surge is still weak compared to Rally for all but a PVP build that spams Crit Charge and does not use any DoTs. Now that weapon dmg only buffs physical weapons, it is without a doubt a stamina users morph. I like the idea of keeping it costing magicka because it is perfect for a magicka dump as it doesn't scale on max magicka or spell power, but it needs to either give stamina users a whole lot more benefit or it needs to have its cost cut in half.

ghengis_dhan · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Good suggestions. I would like to add another:

- Twilight Matriarch: Scales with and increases max stamina

Magicka casters all use Restoring Twilight, so it would be an easy spot to give stamina sorcs a useful morph.

No. I usually play as a magicka-based Sorcerer, and I use Twilight Matriarch. My magicka regen doesn't need the other morph, and I appreciate the heals I get from my summons.

rfennell_ESO · February 2015

manny254 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think, they should make Magicka Sorcerer better first. We are even worse.
But you brought up some nice thoughts. I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure, they are going to consider the Crystal Blast suggestion.

I am only scared, they are going to improve stamina Sorcs and think, it's fine then and totally ignore, that Magicka Sorcs are far more important (because most people want to play a mage Sorcerer and come one.... a Sorcerer is a spell caster, not a warrior at all)

First off magicka based sorc are fine. Second if you think sorcerer is "not a warrior at all" then you have no idea what a sorcerer is in Elder Scrolls.

So what is a sorcerer in elder scrolls?

I've been playing since beta and I'm still pretty unsure.

Is it ancient elven for 4th best?

Dyride · February 2015

I agree with the OP's suggestions and hope that @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno can pass them on to Eric Wroebel.

Another passive that brings a nerf to Stamina Sorcs is the removal of the Exploitation passive providing a 15% increase to critical against foes affected by dark magic.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO · February 2015

I posted this earlier
But this is a rehash of that post.

Know this, that in every game I play.. I play melee toons, so this coming from a pro melee player.

OK 1st off

When we look at melee based, Stam users, no matter what the class, when we look at our skills bar and what's on it.... what are the prevalent skills there?

If you said melee skills, you are probably right. So whether it's templat, dk, nb, or sorc it's the lame are melee skills populating those bars.

Especially now where 2h is very good, you will see some form of crit rush, momentum, wrecking blow, then u start to see the class skills and an ultimate which for the most part now is leaning to meteor and dawn morph.

So whether or not the sorc or any class gets Stam morphs of abilities, really doesn't matter, as

The templates irregardless of class are similar.

So here's the problem...

It's not only the class skills that need revamping

It the damn ed WEAPON SKILLS.

My solution is that the devs make

DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE WEAPON SKILLS BASED ON THE CLASS HOLDING THE WEAPON.

IE
an sorc that wields a 2h doesn't open up crit rush, rather that sorc opens up a closer that mimics the current streak line.

A sorc, nb, dk, or templar may get wrecking blow, but the other 3 that it isn't given to have access to a different 2h skill and so forth.

IE the nb old get a 2h power that makes the target cower.

And on this go to different weapon powers for every single weapon and class.

Then in re to sorc

Toggles are just terrible.
These toggles need to be set it and forget it.

How many melee sorc use the pets and armor toggles?

Probably not many as u need other skills slotted within 5 reg skills, and the benefits are way too marginal to place there only for it to disappear uponupon boning skill bar switch.

Now as for some of the other melee centric class skills in the current sorc line....

The lightning armor line is yet again a joke. The melee sorc atm and has been so twitch based that the idea of a buff that lasts for 6 to 8 sec is ludicrous. Change that to 20 secs to match surge.

Conversions

Other games don't channel this skill set. How would u ever expect a front line fighter to go defenseless and channel resources?
Make this a debut that reaps back the resources.

Anyhow I probably have more, but it's get ready for work time.

SanderBuraas · February 2015

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

Alcast · February 2015

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

Derra · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

Maybe in PvE but i think the storm calling change was quite a setback for stamina and hybrid sorcs in pvp.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

Derra wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

Maybe in PvE but i think the storm calling change was quite a setback for stamina and hybrid sorcs in pvp.

Agreed

Rook_Master · February 2015

Sorry sorcs are only supposed to be for pet roleplayers and magicka builds now.

Taonnor · February 2015

Stamina Builds 16k++

Including sorcs.

https://youtube.com/channel/UClPSBWOnJVUuLcS6RKVjErw

After see that Vids i got 2 things:

- Stamina Builds of Temp, DK, Sorc are close beside
- Stamina Sorcs >> Magicka Sorcs

Erock25 · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

But what about after they fix wrecking blow?

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

I see your videos. I see 14.5k DPS stam sorc that is only getting 8% max stamina and 5% stam cost reduction from his class. You might as well have no class at all. The fact that wrecking blow >> all is an issue and when it is fixed, stam Sorc will truly have nothing. It is a shame you didn't post the FTC breakdowns for the Sorc, because on your Temp builds and DK builds I see a significant portion of the DPS coming from class skills/passives while that Sorc parse only had the ultimate.

Please don't say because all class has wrecking blow that all classes are viable.

Erock25 · February 2015

Taonnor wrote: »

Stamina Builds 16k++

Including sorcs.

https://youtube.com/channel/UClPSBWOnJVUuLcS6RKVjErw

After see that Vids i got 2 things:

- Stamina Builds of Temp, DK, Sorc are close beside
- Stamina Sorcs >> Magicka Sorcs

So you watched the video and saw a 16k sorc parse? I see 14.5k.

Alcast · February 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

But what about after they fix wrecking blow?

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

I see your videos. I see 14.5k DPS stam sorc that is only getting 8% max stamina and 5% stam cost reduction from his class. You might as well have no class at all. The fact that wrecking blow >> all is an issue and when it is fixed, stam Sorc will truly have nothing. It is a shame you didn't post the FTC breakdowns for the Sorc, because on your Temp builds and DK builds I see a significant portion of the DPS coming from class skills/passives while that Sorc parse only had the ultimate.

Please don't say because all class has wrecking blow that all classes are viable.

Sorc gains less from passive that is true. But when i was testing i really didnt feel any weaker than with other classes. In addition, killing trash with Sorc was very fun lol. And that Liquid Lightning synergy does crazy damage. Also, sorc is the only class with stam symmetry (Dark Deal) Which really makes it awesomo. I could have gone for more weapon damage but i wanted to test all 4 classes with same stats.

Erock25 · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

But what about after they fix wrecking blow?

Alcast wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

I agree. Stamina Sorcerer should also be viable.

It is.

I see your videos. I see 14.5k DPS stam sorc that is only getting 8% max stamina and 5% stam cost reduction from his class. You might as well have no class at all. The fact that wrecking blow >> all is an issue and when it is fixed, stam Sorc will truly have nothing. It is a shame you didn't post the FTC breakdowns for the Sorc, because on your Temp builds and DK builds I see a significant portion of the DPS coming from class skills/passives while that Sorc parse only had the ultimate.

Please don't say because all class has wrecking blow that all classes are viable.

Sorc gains less from passive that is true. But when i was testing i really didnt feel any weaker than with other classes. In addition, killing trash with Sorc was very fun lol. And that Liquid Lightning synergy does crazy damage. Also, sorc is the only class with stam symmetry (Dark Deal) Which really makes it awesomo. I could have gone for more weapon damage but i wanted to test all 4 classes with same stats.

Liquid Lightning is a magicka/spell power spell that may just be powerful enough to use in stamina spec but as gear progression continues, it will fall further and further out of relevance.

I don't really see a place for Dark Deal. It is a massive DPS loss to use it. I'd rather clip my wrecking blows with full heavy attacks than use Dark Deal.

You could have gone for more weapon damage with a Sorc compared to other classes? I'm confused.

I do not think Wrecking Blow will stay in its current state. It just doesn't make sense to have one ability be greater than the sum of all classes. That leaves Temp with your very nice build on Tamriel Foundry that relies almost entirely on class skills. DK has their stamina dots, their access to Minor Brutality, and I haven't tested myself but Igneous weapons could push medium attacks above light attacks for clipping Wrecking Blow. Don't forget that is that Fearturbo spec out there that doesn't even use Wrecking Blow that pulled off 16k DPS on Bloodspawn. I haven't seen any NB parses, but something tells me they have it good.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO · February 2015

@ taonnor..

Im sure there are sorcs now with a Stam build that can reach 14k to 16k dps.

However, what makes them a sorc? Liitle, if any of that dps is due to being a sorc.

Those Stam damage numbers come primarily from wrecking blow spam, and has nothing to do with the class line.

All that proves is that weapon lines need diversity based on class, and not generic powers.

The way the system is set up now means that a farmer could pick up a 2h sword and go town using wrecking blow, crit rush, and momentum.

seanvwolf · February 2015

In Elder Scrolls the lightning magicks drain enemy stamina... I don't know why this isn't a thing in ESO. Draining stamina and restoring your own would give a significant boost to Stam (and Magicka) Sorc builds in both pve and pvp. Why is this not a thing? This could be as simple as a passive for sorcs. Any enemy hit by a lightning spell has X% of their stamina reduced and the caster gains y% of stamina every second for 5 seconds.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

@ taonnor..

Im sure there are sorcs now with a Stam build that can reach 14k to 16k dps.

However, what makes them a sorc? Liitle, if any of that dps is due to being a sorc.

Those Stam damage numbers come primarily from wrecking blow spam, and has nothing to do with the class line.

All that proves is that weapon lines need diversity based on class, and not generic powers.

The way the system is set up now means that a farmer could pick up a 2h sword and go town using wrecking blow, crit rush, and momentum.

That is not a problem with what he is doing. The problem is how they designed weapon abilities. If you want to make a character that actually uses weapon animations apart from light/heavy you gotta get a weapon damage ability as your main bread and butter ability.

Erock25 · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

@ taonnor..

Im sure there are sorcs now with a Stam build that can reach 14k to 16k dps.

However, what makes them a sorc? Liitle, if any of that dps is due to being a sorc.

Those Stam damage numbers come primarily from wrecking blow spam, and has nothing to do with the class line.

All that proves is that weapon lines need diversity based on class, and not generic powers.

The way the system is set up now means that a farmer could pick up a 2h sword and go town using wrecking blow, crit rush, and momentum.

That is not a problem with what he is doing. The problem is how they designed weapon abilities. If you want to make a character that actually uses weapon animations apart from light/heavy you gotta get a weapon damage ability as your main bread and butter ability.

There is nothing wrong with weapon abilities being the primary damage dealer in a stamina spec as long as other parts of the class, whether they be DOTs, buffs, passives, or executes contributes to the overall build. Currently in 1.6, it seems every stamina build class besides templar will rely on a weapon ability as their bread and butter DPS.